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ccharles000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 02:25 AM
Original message
'It's like you sign a contract to be raped'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/sep/07/usa.gender


There is only one place in the US where brothels are legal, and that's Nevada - a state in which prostitution has been considered a necessary service industry since the days when the place was populated solely by prospecters. There are at least 20 legal brothels in business now. Not so many, you might think, but these state-sanctioned operations punch above their weight in PR terms.

Take HBO's hit documentary series, Cathouse, which features the most famous of the Nevadan brothels, the Moonlight Bunny Ranch. Tune in and you'd be forgiven for thinking that all prostitutes in Nevada are on to a good thing. The women speak coyly about loving their work, their customers, their bosses. "The series sheds light not only on the numerous joys and challenges of working at a legal brothel," says the HBO website, "but on the therapeutic benefits that customers take with them after a stint at the Ranch."

Given such great PR, a new book - Prostitution and Trafficking in Nevada: Making the Connections - makes interesting reading. During a two-year investigation, the author, Melissa Farley, visited eight legal brothels in Nevada, interviewing 45 women and a number of brothel owners. Far from enjoying better conditions than those who work illegally, the prostitutes she spoke to are often subject to slave-like conditions.

Described as "pussy penitentiaries" by one interviewee, the brothels tend to be in the middle of nowhere, out of sight of ordinary Nevadans. (Brothels are officially allowed only in counties with populations of fewer than 400,000, so prostitution remains an illegal - though vast - trade in conurbations such as Las Vegas.) The brothel prostitutes often live in prison-like conditions, locked in or forbidden to leave.

"The physical appearance of these buildings is shocking," says Farley. "They look like wide trailers with barbed wire around them - little jails." The rooms all have panic buttons, but many women told her that they had experienced violent and sexual abuse from the customers and pimps.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. they're being used as semen receptacles
wouldn't matter how well they were "treated"; the work would be just as degrading
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
2. Interesting
It somewhat contradicts the notion that legalized prostitution would vastly improve the conditions of sex workers. I wish there was a clear answer of how to fix these problems for people who choose this line of work amongst Neanderthals.
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. They need a STRONG union. n/t
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. Take a look at what Sweden did about prostitution.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. But Sweden to Nevada is Apples to Ass Backward Rotten Peaches
Just saying. Sweden could mandate prostitution and have better results.

Where I live in Canada, its legal...but, sorta strange. Everything else about it, like brothels are illegal. Makes prostitutes operate in dangerous conditions, and some serial killer was picking them off in Vancouver some time back.
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Nevada's legal prostitutes live like slaves
Let's quit glamorizing something that is, in fact, a human rights violation.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Who is glamorizing?
Huh?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. I'm not sure what you mean.
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 09:21 AM by redqueen
We're not talking about anything but prostitution.

Downthread someone posts that maybe the brothels are the problem and freelance workers would fare better, but that sounds like the situation in Canada - yet still these problems persist.

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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
3. How do the Dutch regulate this stuff without turning the women into prisoners?
Because it seems to me that if prostitution is going to be legalized, then there should be a healthy dose of oversight to ensure that it is safe for all and clean for all. Without any real regulation, you simply end up with pimps with licenses to beat on women and treat them like shit.
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Betty Karlson Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. They don't.
Since protitution was legalised, the 'trade' of women has increased.

Everyone thought that protitution, once legalised, would help women and customers. Any crime would automatically be linked to TAX - and as such any women-maltreating businessman (businesswoman, sometimes) would be fined out of business. Guess what? Tax evasion sprang up, and the black circuit has never been so vast.

Even worse is the fate of the male prostitutes. Given the 'shame' that is still connected to homosexual activities (especially if the protitute is not gay himself), almost the entire male section of prostitution has gone illegal.

Protection for the prostitutes, both men and women, has declined. Illegal international 'human trade' has sprang up. In some cases, we could justifiedly speak of sub-human or slave-like conditions. Don't look at the Netherlands as an example for prostitution reform. It's not.
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FarrenH Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. SWEAT, the South African sex worker's advocacy group
Edited on Mon Oct-19-09 05:41 AM by FarrenH
is lobbying heavily for decriminalisation. In New Zealand, where prositution is also completely legal, there is no link to human trafficking and sex workers are overwhelmingly in favour of legalisation. I have a friend who was (but is no longer) a sex worker in New Zealand and considers existing laws far better than the alternative. She is a very forthright individual and has never given any hint of being subjected to abusive conditions on the job. In fact she has described some of her customers as very sweet. I also knew someone a long time ago that moved from prositution to running her own sex-line, which turned out to be a lucrative business.

My strong intuition is that trafficking in the Netherlands and conditions of semi-slavery in Nevada are due to lousy enforcement and inadequate special legal protections. I also think that those that think prostitution is inherently exploitative will naturally look at any failure of legalisation as evidence that it will never work, without examining the failures of the alternatives, failures of the legalisative model and failures of enforcement. Why, for instance, not enforce regular inspections to determine that workers at licensed institutions are offered real protection in the workplace and are practically capable of leaving at any time? Why not enforce payment into an unemployment insurance fund by employers, so that those that leave the profession can pick up a government cheque for at least a few months after leaving? Why are these possibilities ignored and instead blanket prohibition advocated?

Given its historical lack of legal cover and negative social attitudes in western society, its natural that prostitution would attract many vulnerable people who are easily controlled by more ruthless individuals. Yet places like Nevada make zero effort at actually ensuring that prostitutes continue to work voluntarily and without abuse and are given alternatives when they want to get out. You can't just legalise it and continue to ignore the conditions under which sex workers actually work.

Prohibition doesn't even work in the most brutal and draconian of societies. In fact, it increases the chance of abuse and exploitation to close to 100%, because victims are automatically seen as criminals. Thousands of women are being trafficked in Saudi Arabia and are more invisible than they would be in any western society. A common form of abuse where sex work is illegal is sexual abuse by the police. Several members of the vice squad in the Johannesburg high-rise slum Hillbrow were recently fired after it was revealed that they had been demanding sex from prostitutes in return for not arresting them - for several years. Individual cops apparently had their favorites, which means that some women were being raped by the same officer of the law for years. No-one is under any illusion that all the violent pimps and poor workplace conditions will go away once its legalised, but at least it will stop the police exploiting already exploited individuals further.

Given that we have hundreds of years of experience of the failed alternative, I find arguments against legalisation on the grounds that abuse still occurs bizarre. I think they're motivated by misplaced ideas about exploitation and will continue to be used to further disempower the men and women that will continue to enter the trade whether its legal or not.

And given that most organised groups of sex workers around the world are arguing FOR legalisation, there's an intrusive and parochial element in the arguments of those that want to prohibit it altogether for the purported good of the sex workers themselves, on top of the unrealistic nature of such demands. I also think there is a large contingent of the secular, feminist, anti-sex-work group that is sex-negative and think sex work is inherently wrong and abusive, without qualification. This is not simply a purportedly practical position. It is a moral position that doesn't even entertain the possibility that human beings exist who may find sex without intimacy comfortable or even - gasp - enjoyable. With that mindset, you're not going to come up with effective and productive legal frameworks for an activity you are bitterly opposed to, neither are you going to parse information about the phenomenon fairly. Not when your underlying belief is that even choosing the profession is an automatic sign of dysfunction - a dysfunction that should prevent someone by law from making choices about their own body. In fact, such attitudes further stigmatises those that choose sex work - either you're sinful, or you're dysfunctional.

For the record, I have never used the services of a prostitute and I've only visited strip clubs twice in my life, both stag evenings organised by other people. Its a turn off for me when someone's only doing it for money, so its never appealed to me. But from my sex-positive acquaintances who were in or at the fringes of the sex trade, and actually enjoyed or at the very least weren't scarred by their work, I think I can safely say that there are men and women of sound mind for whom prohibition of sex work is an infringement on what should be their basic rights, an infringement that is not warranted nor "good for them". What it comes down to is "Who are you to tell someone that DOESN'T find their work degrading that it is degrading?" You're forcing a negative social status on them.
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Betty Karlson Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. The situation used to be better
Before the decriminalisation, we had the 'policy of non-prosecution' in the Netherlands. Basically, it meant that one could be a prostitute without facing prosecution for that, but any criminal activity connected to that (money laundering, human trafic, slavery, abuse...) would always warrant prosecution.

As a result, protitution was kept low-profile, small-scale, and severely scrutinized by the police. It's a shame the libal governments of the late 90-ies abolished the practice.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. i understand sweden? is going to that. not prosecuting the prostitute but making illegal
again because of all the issue that have arisen from making it legal.

they are hoping this method will take care of some of the problems without going after the prostitute
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Betty Karlson Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Indeed, Sweden. Sensible country. N/T
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 05:35 AM
Response to Original message
7. No little girl says, "Gee, I want to be a prostitute when I grow up."
I'm betting there are not high school girls who say their goal is to be a prostitute after they graduate.

Yes, this does fly in the face of all of the info we have always heard about prostitution being legalized. I also think that you cannot compare the U.S. to other countries in regards to prostitution. No matter how this is dolled up it is just plain sad.
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FarrenH Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Its worth considering
Edited on Mon Oct-19-09 05:52 AM by FarrenH
that no child says

"I want to be a garbage disposal man when I grow up"
"I want to be a waiter when I grow up"
"I want to be a street sweeper when I grow up"
"I want to be a municipal labourer when I grow up"

see my response to Betty above. Its an indictment of the police and the legal framework in Nevada, but not in any obvious way a sound argument against legalisation.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Sorry, I don't buy that comparison since those professions are legal everywhere
and there might actually be children who parents who have those occupations and the kids do want to be like them.

Also, the United States is not New Zealand and it is not the Netherlands and you cannot offhandedly make those comparisons because it is more complicated than that. Given the moral repugnance that prostitution has in this country I don't see it ever being legal other that in isolated instances.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 05:44 AM
Response to Original message
9. when I lived in Chicago as a student
many of the women in the cheap ass building I was in were hookers or strippers. I met a few of them. every one of them had been sexually abused as children. every one. They hated the johns . They literally had nothing but contempt for the men who frequented them, and for themselves, sadly.

I wanted to know why so I asked them. I was a young feminist back then.
I almost threw up when I saw the movie "Pretty Woman" . It was a huge lie, and an appalling lie.
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. "Every one of them was abused as children"
I forget whether the statistic I've heard quoted was 85% or even higher, but as soon as I heard it -- the statistic of the direct connection between the childhood victims and the adult prostitute -- I stopped thinking of prostitution as a victimless crime or as something that should be legalized. I can't reconcile the contrast between society's generally compassionate feelings toward child-victims (people in general want to protect such children, feel sorrow over the crime, feel deep anger toward the perpetrators) and society's callous and snide attitude toward basically those same victims 10 years later when they are on the streets. A girl at 10 or 12 who is molested engenders feelings of widespread empathy or compassion; roll the clock forward 8 or 10 years, and the fractured human being that suffered in this way may now become the butt of jokes, outcast or treated as less than human.

Prostitution is the aftermath of violence against children.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Prostitution is the aftermath of violence against children.
stopped thinking of prostitution as a victimless crime


yup
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. The biggest lie out there is the notion prostitution is a "victimless" crime
The hell it is.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. i dont get why anyone thinks we can pretty this up. it is a person using another's body anyway
they chose. it is a thing to these people, not a person, or human. a thing to use. why do we pretend that any kind of "rule" is going to keep the creeps from being creeps, or the women from being abused, or the trash from profiting off the abuse.

prostitution is an ugly business. always has been. always will be.

legalizing it, containing it .... still has the element of one person reducing another to nothing.

legalizing it has made it harder to combat the sex slave trade. and the sex slave trade has multiplied.

innocent people, kids, kidnapped and forced to be used by the sick in this world. and we want to homogenize it to respect.

i. dont. get. it.

pretty woman is not a reality, yet i have heard posters on du that actually believe these women "like" the sex. just more sexual. they get off while with a john. what retarded world does a man live in that he believes these women do this cause they like it.
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FarrenH Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. When I was in my late teens, I discovered that the proprietor
Edited on Mon Oct-19-09 11:21 AM by FarrenH
of a punk/alternative clothing store offered free gear in return for sex with teenage customers who couldn't afford his stuff. Some of the the punk girls I knew did it. These were mostly well-adjusted middle-class kids who just wanted a new top or pair of Doc Martins. One of them, who told me she did it when she was 15, was utterly glib about it. I found out about it after hearing one girl tell another about it as if it was just another shopping option.

Zoom forward a few years and I was living in a commune in a short-lived bohemian oasis on the edge of post-Apartheid Johannesburg, the kind of neighbourhood where artists, lefties, punks, drug users and so on flocked too for the drugs, or the alternative lifestyles, the entertainment, to be around other artists or whatever. Lots of people I met were sexually adventurous. I recall the acute embarrasment I experienced one night because, after talking a big game, I was too uncomfortable to engage in a menage-a-troi with an artist friend and her for-the-holidays American musician lover (he in turn had a girlfriend, a dancer, back in Seattle - a situation all three were aware of). It was in this environment that I met a number of very confident, sex-positive sex workers, phone sex line operators and so on. And I got to know one or two of them well enough to know that their casual attitude to sex and lack of shame about what they did was not a put-on.

Then a few years after that I got to know two more sex-workers online, one a former porn movie actor and the other a prostitute. These online friendships continued for a decade and we have shared many intimate secrets, enough that I have to watch what I say on their facebook pages for fear that prudish family members might read. The former prostitute was, and is, a serious advocate for legalisation and adequate protection.

On a tangential note, I also lived with someone in a polyamorous relationship for 5 years. I have a very low sex drive and used to spend lots of my spare time programming, so I told my then lover (and friend to this day) that, if the sex got boring, I wouldn't mind if she got a little on the side. A year after that, she took me up on it. The chap who became her "toy-boy" on and off for years (and is also still a friend) had an almost pathalogical fear of relationships and was always looking for casual sex with no strings attached. In retrospect, we acted irresponsibly in terms of protecting ourselves from disease, but from a moral perspective the situation suited all of us just fine.

So I've spent a good deal of my life around people who have a very libertine attitude to sex, including "happy hookers" who are, in fact, happy.

And that experience has left me with the compelling belief that the miserable statistics (childhood abuse et al) that attend prostitution in countries like the USA and South Africa are not a consequence of sex work, per se, but are rather the result of the culture in which it takes place. Inadequate legal protection and workers rights, shitty enforcement where there is some protection, approbrium from the courts and finally a marked lack of respect from all parts of the political spectrum. Even the purportedly concerned would-be saviours of those consigned to the streets treat them as damaged goods, by default.

Its perfectly obvious that many who are involved in a profession that is universally stigmatised will express shame whether that was a prior condition or not. I can't help thinking of a particularly licentious friend, who in the interests of privacy I will avoid describing too much, who broke down in tears once and testified to being molested at the age of ten. He later admitted it was a lie, an attempt to solicit sympathy from someone he was regaling with tales of his sexual adventures with both men and women before realising that they were morally horrified. IOW the shortest route from condemnation to pity was to lie about childhood abuse. And that makes me wonder how accurate the cited statistics are. Its easy to imagine even a high-class call-girl who works for select Johns, charges a mint and has personal protection on call, being mortified when respectable friends and family find out and acting on that shame. What is not as obvious is whether all feel it before being exposed.

I see people here describing and linking to social conditions where prostitution takes place in isolated, prison-like conditions, or on the streets, where criminal gangsters and violent pimps serve as bosses. Societies where it is pushed so far to the fringes its practically outside of legal review, or entirely illegal and in the province of criminals by default. Broader social contexts where people view it as either sinful or dysfunctional, depending on which part of the social spectrum they're from. Of course such a profession, in such a context, is going to be a magnet for castaways, homeless people, drug addicts. But you can't disentangle their stories from the society that shaped them, the puritanical attitudes it has to fidelity and casual sex (excluding for the moment the threat of STDs, which is not the root cause of that approbrium), the long history of legal suppression and non-existent workplace protections.

Where trafficking is concerned its well known that people are still trafficked for cheap labour and made to work as slaves, too, but one doesn't see a link being drawn between all manual labour and slavery, too, as if the latter is a natural and inevitable consequence of the former.
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nomorenomore08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. "Even the purportedly concerned would-be saviours of those consigned to the streets
treat them as damaged goods, by default."

Interesting... I'm very ambivalent on the issue of prostitution myself, and might well be more so if I were a woman, but you bring up a good point here. No industry operates in a vacuum, and it makes sense that a "business" already heavily stigmatized in the first place would lean toward the unsavory.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Thank you for this post. (nt)
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gtar100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 06:09 AM
Response to Original message
11. Why does this not surprise me?
So typical of US industries - a nice facade but utter degradation in the actual workings. So sad for these women because they do not deserve to be treated this way. I swear we need to test people to determine if they are sociopaths before giving them any sort of responsibility over the lives of others, because that seems to be where they all end up. We have created a culture in which sociopaths thrive and people of good conscience are ignored or shoved aside.
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Irreverend IX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
15. Are brothels the problem?
It seems that most of the successful prostitutes, the ones that write for the sex workers' advocacy publications, work on a freelance basis for customers of their choice, not for a brothel or agency. But you can't legally be a freelance escort in Nevada, the law only allows for brothels with an expensive site license. This favors the monopolization of the business by brothel owners who run an assembly-line style operation aiming to serve as many customers in as little time as possible, which doesn't bode well for the sex workers. Maybe freelancers should be allowed and brothels should be illegal.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
16. Having lived in Nevada (though not availing myself of their services) I think its
a recipe for abuse, just like Gitmo is, because its isolated and remote, with no oversight.

Even if legal brothels were a good idea, and I'm not arguing that one way or the other, these trailer hovels too far from civilisation are a horrible idea. Its a recipe for virtual imprisonment.
At least if the brothels were allowed in Las Vegas proper, escape would be feasible if necessary.

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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. Las Vegas already is a world center for sex trafficking
and you think it is okay to legalize something that is an affront to human dignity?

This isn't a "career" or a "lifestyle." Women (and a few men) resort to it because of survival.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. did you even read what I said?
apparently not.

next time, read carefully and resist the temptation to put words in people's mouths.
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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
31. until women are actually respected
then prostitution is unlikely to lead to good results.
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