This post might be offensive to you.

[varkam]

And if it is, I am sorry. It's not my intent to offend anyone, or tell anyone else how they should conduct themselves or run their lives. I don't anyone telling me what to do, and so I would like to afford others that same respect. I would, however, like to post some observations I've been making here on DU and amongst some of my liberal friends, as well. I won't honestly be surprised if I get called a troll for this, or an apologist, or a republican operative. If you want to call me those things, I can assure you that it won't hurt my feelings - I've been called worse.

I remember Columbine. In the wake of that shooting, after the smoke cleared and the guns stopped firing, people started looking for a reason. "Subversive" media such as the video game Doom or rock groups like KMFDM and Marilyn Manson were frequent subjects of ire from the talking heads. Some others blamed lax parenting. Still others thought that bullying was the main issue. Mental illness was a reasonable assumption to make, as well. But one thing that pissed me off then, is that some were trying to use the tragedy as a knife to shove into Clinton. I wasn't such a politics geek then as I am now, but even then it still pissed me off because it just detracted from the real tragedy, and the real problem.

So now, here on DU, I have read several posts that are trying to turn this tragedy into a knife to shove into Bush. It's because he's gutted the mental health system. It's because of gun control laws. It's because of...whatever. Some of my friends have asked me "How can you not be pissed off at Bush over this?" Easy. Some things go beyond politics. What goes beyond politics, you might ask? Here's a clue:


Ross Abdallah Alameddine, 20


Ryan Clark, 22


Daniel Perez Cueva, 21


Kevin Granata, 45


Matthew La Porte


Liviu Librescu, 76


G.V. Loganathan, 51

I look at their faces, and I've been trying to be a good liberal - honest. When this happened, my first instinct was to try and beat Bush with it. But I really can't, in good conscience, blame this on him. I know we all want to stick Bush as much as we can, but honestly, the man is a fucking pin-cushion. He's a sham of a president and a shell of a human being - and everyone knows it. The reason the right tried to stick Columbine on Clinton was that the man was squeaky clean compared with Bush. We don't need these people to mount our assault. How about we let them have their peace?

[piedmont]

1. Thank you varkam. You very well expressed many things I've been thinking. nt

[flowomo]

2. either you or all the MSM have the wrong Ryan Clark photo....

here's the one from the AP (and I've seen lots of others):

[varkam]

3. Thanks, I'll edit my post

:hi:

[Bluebear]

5. That is indeed Ryan. The photo above is Ross Alameddine.

And Bush is still a jerk for speaking here when he ignored Red Lake, Katrina, etc.

[geardaddy]

8. He ignore Red Lake, because

that was just Native Americans. What a piece of human garbage he is.

[Cha]

27. And every fucking funeral of

a soldier. bush is down in Virginia today to try and pull his numbers out of the gutter..like he gives a shit about anybody but his own damn self. But it ain't gonna happen.

[JVS]

4. I agree with you.

[geardaddy]

6. I agree. He had nothing to do with this tragedy.

But I do have one bone of contention. Bush isn't the pin cushion, the American people are, and he's the one sticking the pins in.

[varkam]

13. All I meant with that analogy

Is that he has fucked up so many times, and has so many scandals swirling around him, that we don't need these people in the same way that the right needed those high school students from Columbine.

[geardaddy]

16. Fair enough.

Thanks for explaining your analogy.

[aquart]

7. What, exactly, are you defending?

An assault on dead people? Dead people used as a weapon? What?

As long as Virginia sells guns like candy, Americans anywhere can expect to die violently for no particular reason. Under any president who runs and hides from the NRA.

A lovely legal Glock and all the ammunition needed to murder a campus. In one sale. On one receipt. And not one question. I don't care who gets pounded for this. It's deserved.

[varkam]

11. Yes, an assault on dead people, on their memories, and on what they lived for.

It's not different than Bush standing on the rubble of the WTC, and I don't agree with it.

[applegrove]

37. I'm with you!

[Tunkamerica]

59. do you honestly think this kid wouldn't have found another way to hurt people?

There have been lots of mass killings by an individual over the years. Arson, motor vehicles, bombs, poison. Take your pick. Two guns did this, but the guns didn't make this kid want to hurt people.

[Connonym]

61. I do honestly believe that

And even if he had killed people I don't believe he would have been able to kill as many.

[Tunkamerica]

65. An interesting article on the subject

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660196845,00.html

Guns are used most of the time, but arson and bombs kill the most people per incident.

[Sapere aude]

9. I can't blame anyone for this. Maybe the security people should have done more.

This was a random event and we cannot comprehend such tragedy as being random. We need an answer to why so we invent one.

I think the guy had a mental illness and it led to this destructive behavior. If anything we need to have compassion for those who we suspect need help. Instead we ostracize them.
No this is not Bush's fault and it is not a gun control issue either. It is not because of video games or no Jesus in public schools.

[mudesi]

10. Sorry. But YEARS of right wing control are the reason for these tragedies

Bush is as much a part of the right wing agenda as all of his predecessors. The cutting of education and social programs coupled with the obscene amount of spending on the military, the NRA's propaganda and its influence on politicians to not pass adequate gun control, the vast corporate structure of the media that pushes the fear and the gun culture, and the billions of dollars that flow up to the Republicans at the top, the Republicans who own the corporations, all contribute to the violent nature of America.

No discounting Bush's role in all of this from me. This is the result of generations of children growing up in the "fend for yourself" society perpetuated by the GOP and by enabling conservative Democrats.

[Colobo]

23. Andrew Kehoe probably wouldn't agree

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

12. Rest in peace

Good post.

Let's celebrate the lives that were taken and cherish the memories of these who have died (and whom my belief system causes me to feel are now in a better space)

[Snotcicles]

14. WTF is this crap

I look at their faces, and I've been trying to be a good liberal - honest. When this happened, my first instinct was to try and beat Bush with it............ Explain this!

[varkam]

19. I don't feel the need to explain myself. It's all there in the OP.

If you want to accuse me of being an apologist or a troll, at least have the guts to out and out say it.

[Snotcicles]

If you believe a good liberals first instinct should be to blame Bush for this

I'm glad you didn't write the Liberal manual.

[varkam]

28. You missed the point

Moreover, I didn't realize that there was a manual that we were supposed to follow.

[Snotcicles]

30. I'm sorry these are trying times we are living I

have always guarded my liberalism but cherished my discretion.

[gravity]

26. That's not being a "good liberal"

A good human being realizes that this goes politics

[lumberjack_jeff]

15. What constitutes a risky viewpoint intrigues me.

Today's not a good day for me to read DU.
"Why is it always men who are the psycho killers?"
"It's all the fault of the cops"
"It's undiagnosed schizophrenia"

These all considered risk free opinions.

In contrast, suggesting that this tragedy is not a good cudgel to beat Republicans with carries the fear of offense.

:(

[bryant69]

17. I agree

Particularly over Bush. Obviously this will require a discussion of mental health and guns; that's the way of it. But to turn it all back to Bush is just indicative of how focused we are on the man to the point that we can't see much else.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Colobo]

18. Bush has nothing to do with Cho's crazy soul

[Benhurst]

31. No, he's going to have trouble enough answering for his own.

When it comes to mass murder, Cho was an amateur compared to Bush.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. The way I see it...

you've got one mass murderer trying to make a photo op out of another mass murderer.

[Madspirit]

21. If I had a splinter in my toe

There would be people here who would blame it on Bush..

However, as a Texan, he was my governor and he did entirely derail what little mental health system we did have.

Still, Bush is not to blame anymore than the rest of the uncaring, uninvolved, unsympathetic, unkind people of the world are.

There is a whole thread with good folks trying to figure out what made this boy snap. Then there are the ones claiming it's an isolated case of Evil. The latter is garbage and nonsense. I don't believe in Evil and I do believe things happen for a reason. I think it's good for people to try to figure out the psychology of it all. After all, there is a reason it happens almost exclusively in our country. When it happens elsewhere it's an anomaly. Here, it's almost a fad. There has to be a reason above the isolated shallow "it's just an evil person"...reasons.
Lee

[frogcycle]

40. People insist on finding "the reason" because

they cannot stand the simple fact that shit happens.

bad things happen to good people. Oh, yes, of course, a gazillion factors contribute to the final outcome of any happening, and any of them can be held up as an "I told you so." And some of that is good, because it DOES help identify problems.

But the manic search for "reason" is mostly a desperaate attempt to find a cause, to be able to say "see there, it was the fault of...; if we can fix that then it won't happen again"

well, it will happen again. And planes will crash, people will get cancer, lots of shit will happen.

Trying to pin problems on the favorite bad guy of the moment is a human trait. For some its "the jews;" for others "the blacks" or "the immigrants" (for some its all of the above). For some its "the liberals" for others its "the right".

Take a deep breath and grieve for these people. I do that every day when adding to my Iraq/Afghanistan fatalities website. I think about them and their families then. Afterwards, I go off and rail about the bastards who put them in harms way.

[question everything]

22. Thank you. I do not remember RWers trying to tie Columbine

to Clinton, though I would not be surprised.

And... I did not visit DU until late last night, but, frankly, was wondering how many would look at this event as a "distraction" from Rove, Gonzales, Iraq, etc. A RW conspiracy. If there are posts, I am glad to have missed them.

[Colobo]

25. They did not, because it didn't make sense to do such thing.

Just like it doesn't make sense to blame Bush for what some crazy idiot did to 32 innocent individuals.

[ieoeja]

57. Both of you missed that?

Hate radio and Christian broadcasting was full of "this happened because Clinton's lack of morals doesn't inspire kids to be good".

[Mad_Dem_X]

24. Excellent post. n/t

[Toots]

29. When civil behavior goes by the wayside incivility rules

When a person becomes a multi-millionaire off of insulting, berating, and belittling people on a daily basis as does Limbaugh and Imus and many others it says a lot about a people or a country. A country that not only allows it but encourages it. Yes I blame Bush*, I blame Kerry, I blame Clinton, I blame all those that did not speak out against such incivility and those that actually allow such to be broadcast to our military on a daily basis. When civility is no longer the norm then we have become an uncivilized nation. I remember many of the comments by Newt Gingrich. I remember the Vice-President of the USA telling a United States Senator to "Get Fucked".... Yes I blame.... Our country could do so much better...

[Marie26]

32. Totally agree. nt

[saracat]

33. Sorry.I disagree.Think about Wellstone and think about JFK Jr. and the RW reaction.

Bush did not cause this but his self serving "how can I make political points with this?" reaction is sickening.

[varkam]

41. Does that mean we should try to score political points with it, as well? eom

[MedleyMisty]

34. I really don't think that being a good liberal means pinning this on Bush

Being a good liberal means giving love and aid to all who need it and remembering and honoring the victims. And I would personally include forgiveness for the gunman and love and aid to his family as well.

I'm confused about the bits where you say it doesn't have anything to do with mental health care. Are you saying that the gunman was perfectly okay mentally and in his right mind?

[varkam]

42. No.

I don't know whether or not the gunman was mentally ill, as I am not a trained mental health professional. Even if I were, I have never met this man much less conducted a diagnostic interview, so I would not be able to make that claim.

I think it's clear that he was not in his right mind, whatever the cause of that was.

I don't know what the problem was but, for my purposes, the problem is irrelevant.

[MethuenProgressive]

35. Thank you Varkum, good words, good link, and good photos.

"How about we let them have their peace?"
Agreed.

[etherealtruth]

36. A good liberal looks at those faces ...

... and feels deep sadness ... wants nothing less than to make everything OK ... and realize they can't.

[varkam]

43. Agreed.

Very much agree.

[IronLionZion]

55. yes, I'm with you nt

[NNN0LHI]

38. Do you have any examples of someone using Columbine as a knife to shove into Clinton?

I know he got blamed for just about everything but that one doesn't come to mind.

Don

[varkam]

44. It's been a while back.

But I don't have any examples off the top of my head. I remember listening to talk radio and some talking head making the connection, but not pressing the point. I wasn't really listening, because I didn't really follow politics that closely back then.

I don't have any links to provide off the top of my head. Perhaps I am misrembering, or perhaps it really wasn't that big of a deal. I know that I've been wrong before and I'm sure to be wrong again. Regardless, it doesn't change the point that I was trying to make in the OP.

[frogcycle]

39. Thank you. Very well said. n/t

[AuntPatsy]

45. Im not sure you quite understand, yes it is in many ways bushes

fault if you fail to understand that in almost eight years of attempting to ruin, oops I mean run this country, he has FAILED to honestly address vital issues of real concern to the American people, living in Texas I understand his mentaility and know many like him, in fact I am married to the like, so please and no offense meant honestly, don't presume to believe this is as simple as attempting to blame him in a child like way, not so,, what occurred yesterday tragic as it is is no surprise to me, what is a surprise is that not more like cases are occurring..

I am not saying by any means that he is the first or will be the last evil person this world will ever know but the simple fact is, he has had plenty of time to prove he could have been capable of bringing some little sense of order into such a chaotic human existance but he has done nothing more than aid in abetting this chaotic disorder continue, cutting mental health as well as simple medical programs has indeed hurt this country's citizens...


He was given a job to aid this country to maintain some order, he has failed, he will one day be faced to accept he had a hand in such tradegies...

I agree there is not always someone that must be the burden of blame but in this instance, considering the circumstances, I do indeed partly blame him...

[varkam]

46. Want to know who I blame for the shootings?

Cho Seung Hui.

[AuntPatsy]

47. There can be more than one person to blame, learned that long ago.

[baldguy]

48. The streets of heaven are too crowded with angels tonight

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x6426513

[live love laugh]

49. Beautiful people. Lost. n/t

[lonestarnot]

50. Ackkk

I hate to admit you are right.

[RedCappedBandit]

51. Bush is part of the problem

We are ALL part of the problem.

OUR SOCIETY *is* the problem.

[bagrman]

63. There is no other society on Earth like ours.

That pretty much makes the situations we face uniquely our own. Imagine how many kids these days are raised by the television, sit around all day cut off from the world by a set of Ipod ear buds, playing shoot'em up games on the computer, can you think of a better way to desensitize a young mind to death.. Their parents are to busy trying to make ends meet, know that as so as the interest rate goes up another point they will be on the street, or they're so into booze or dope that they give the kid little guidance or attention. It was tough enough when we were kids in the 60's and 70's can you imagine what it's like now. WE are all products of our society, we are society. Now shut off the fucking TV and computer and Ipods help you spouse do the dishes and play Yathzee with the kids.

Latr

[REP]

52. I Agree

It would be so much easier if Bush or any one, known Boogeyman could be blamed for horrible events like this; that way, maybe they could be prevented. Unfortunately, there's no one Boogeyman; there's an unknown number of them, and there's no one single cause of what makes them think "today is the day."

[On the Road]

53. The Only Thing I Blame Bush for

is trying to score political points out of the shootings himself. And honestly, I haven't watched enough of the nonstop coverage to see whether he's even doing that.

[Matsubara]

54. True enough. Bush is a mass-murderer in his own right...

...but he didn't murder THESE particular victims. Neither did Hitler or Idi Amin.

They have much, much worse crimes to answer for when they face their maker.

[imperial jedi]

56. well said.

:thumbsup:

[deutsey]

58. Not everything can (or should) be crammed into an ideological slot

Humanity trumps ideology for me.

[wizstars]

60. I'll beat conservatives with whatever's available, whenever it's available...

thank you...I just love 'em so much...............:sarcasm:

All these people you pictured would still be with us if politicians, whether right-wingers, or just spineless anything-else, weren't kissing the ba11s of the NRAssholes.

JMHO, FWIW

[dae]

62. Point well made, my only disagreement is *'s attempt to

capitalize on the tragedy for his own political purposes. As another poster said, compare his response to Katrina.
Our species has always had to deal with psychos and this was another example. Some are just a whole lot worse than others, and make of you will of that statement.

[Time for change]

64. I agree

Hey, even I didn't try to stick Bush with this. I didn't even think of it. And I have as much contempt for him as anyone.

[CRH]

66. Keep offending us ...

this site needs to feel your humanity. You teach without trying.

[road2000]

67. I don't blame Bush...

I don't blame him personally for the massacre. Nor do I blame him for creating conditions that led to the massacre.

I blame him because he used his first opportunity for a comment on the disaster to reassure his NRA base.

That's crass.

[yardwork]

68. I agree with you, varkam

I've been thinking the same thing. It seemed to me that the second this news was released, lots of people jumped on their personal bandwagons. The truth is, there was no one cause for this awful event, and no one solution.

Sometimes it is best to pause and let the reality of the events themselves sink in. I think that the country needs to pause and just reflect on what happened. Then, maybe, we can move together on some ways to prevent things like this from happening again.

[daveskilt]

69. My ONLY issue with bush was his first response was to affirm his support for NRA

that was cold political garbage. His "the president supports the right to bear arms" bit one hour after the shooting was inappropriate.

[bliss_eternal]

74. I didn't hear this...

...as I avoid listening to that man, like the plague. But if you are correct, and these were his comments(merely an hour after the incident),they were indeed in poor taste. Political garbage.

:puke:

[Firepit 462]

70. I've read thru your thread, and your comments to the replies,

and I cannot agree more. Good post, excellent replies and better tomorrows.

[vankuria]

Thanks for your post but I may have to disagree

The NRA has already started their assualt on us. I live in upstate NY, I would think a pretty liberal area and this mornings paper had all kinds of twisted rants from the gun lovers. One nutso blamed liberals and had the nerve to state the VA Tech administration had blood on their hands for not allowing students and teachers to carry concealed weapons! In their sociopathic minds if a student had a concealed weapon he could've shot the assailant and saved everyone.

The Repukes will never get over loosing the senate and congress and will politize this anyway they can. Dems have no choice but to fight back, especially since Bush allowed the ban on assualt weapons to run out.

The fact that this troubled young man bought these guns leagally speaks volumes about the need for stricter gun control laws. Unfortunately the NRA has Bush and probably most of the GOP right in their back pocket.

Again I thank-you for your very thoughtful post and for the pictures of those that died in this horrible tragedy.

Peace and Love

[vankuria]

73. Oops, sorry this got posted 3 times, problem with computer

[vankuria]

71. Thanks for your post but I may have to disagree

The NRA has already started their assualt on us. I live in upstate NY, I would think a pretty liberal area and this mornings paper had all kinds of twisted rants from the gun lovers. One nutso blamed liberals and had the nerve to state the VA Tech administration had blood on their hands for not allowing students and teachers to carry concealed weapons! In their sociopathic minds if a student had a concealed weapon he could've shot the assailant and saved everyone.

The Repukes will never get over loosing the senate and congress and will politize this anyway they can. Dems have no choice but to fight back, especially since Bush allowed the ban on assualt weapons to run out.

The fact that this troubled young man bought these guns leagally speaks volumes about the need for stricter gun control laws. Unfortunately the NRA has Bush and probably most of the GOP right in their back pocket.

Again I thank-you for your very thoughtful post and for the pictures of those that died in this horrible tragedy.

Peace and Love

[vankuria]

72. Thanks for your post but I may have to disagree

The NRA has already started their assualt on us. I live in upstate NY, I would think a pretty liberal area and this mornings paper had all kinds of twisted rants from the gun lovers. One nutso blamed liberals and had the nerve to state the VA Tech administration had blood on their hands for not allowing students and teachers to carry concealed weapons! In their sociopathic minds if a student had a concealed weapon he could've shot the assailant and saved everyone.

The Repukes will never get over loosing the senate and congress and will politize this anyway they can. Dems have no choice but to fight back, especially since Bush allowed the ban on assualt weapons to run out.

The fact that this troubled young man bought these guns leagally speaks volumes about the need for stricter gun control laws. Unfortunately the NRA has Bush and probably most of the GOP right in their back pocket.

Again I thank-you for your very thoughtful post and for the pictures of those that died in this horrible tragedy.

Peace and Love