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U.S. Sees $4B From Bailed Out Banks: Report

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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 03:37 AM
Original message
U.S. Sees $4B From Bailed Out Banks: Report
Edited on Sun Oct-18-09 03:43 AM by ecstatic
WASHINGTON (TheStreet) -- The U.S. government has collected profits of about $4 billion from eight of the biggest banks that have fully repaid their obligations from the federal rescue of the banking system last year, a report says.

The government has taken profits of about $1.4 billion on its investment in Goldman Sachs(GS Quote), $1.3 billion on Morgan Stanley(MS Quote) and $414 million on American Express(AXP Quote), the New York Times reports.

Northern Trust(NTRS Quote), Bank of New York Mellon(BK Quote), State Street(STT Quote), U.S. Bancorp(USB Quote) and BB&T(BBT Quote) each brought in $100 million to $334 million in profit, the Times notes.

The U.S. government also has collected about $35 million in profits from 14 smaller banks that have paid back their loans, the Times reported.

The profits from the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program, signed into law in October, have spurred hopes the U.S. government could soon get out of the banking business, the Times notes. Critics of the law were concerned taxpayers might not see any profits under the program, and that it could take years for the banks to repay the loans.


http://www.thestreet.com/story/10592354/us-sees-4b-from-bailed-out-banks-report.html

This is the part that is never discussed when we talk about the bailouts. Does this change your opinion? Or are you still furious? Why or why not?
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 03:41 AM
Response to Original message
1. My objection was not to the bailout itself, but the way it was managed
No accountability, no limits on bonuses and CEO pay with any teeth, no mandate that the banks expand lending, etc.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Worst of all, nothing to prevent this from happening again.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 04:19 AM
Response to Original message
3. Yes I'm still furious
Because we've taken profits from 4 out of the 8 biggest. We are still taking giant losses on the rest. Remember TARP money was forced onto every single player, even the ones that didn't need it.

Here is the other thing, we will never see profits from AIG. 200 Billion dollars was funneled into AIG and it paid all these banks dollar for dollar in their bad investment.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. We're not taking losses from the rest
The only report of anything like losses I've come across was a report that some smaller banks were not paying dividends. Since January, TARP funds have been extended to hundreds of tiny banks and credit unions across the country.

According the terms of the preferred, unpaid dividends are rolled into the principal of the preferred shares -- like compound interest.

While the government may eventually lose on some smaller banks, the portfolio as a whole is very likely to be highly profitable.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 04:21 AM
Response to Original message
4. So we gave them 1.6 trillion and our return is currently 4 billion?
Sounds about right.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. From the banks that have repaid the money so far, we have
made 4 billion more than we loaned those banks. The rest will pay off their loans soon enough.

Don't get me wrong--I'm not happy that only certain large corporations got a bailout when so many regular citizens were and still are suffering. I lost so much value in my home due to foreclosures and had to remain somewhere that I do not want to be.

At the same time, what we had was a situation where our government stopped a plummeting stock market in a way that will turn out to be very profitable in the long run. The bailout funds were loans, not grants.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 05:15 AM
Response to Original message
5. "profits"? loan $700 B, get back less = "profits"?
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. You're now an expert in accounting, you should be able to figure this out!
Edited on Sun Oct-18-09 07:34 AM by HamdenRice
The money was paid back and the $5 billion is additional income on the principal in the form of dividends and warrants.

If you can differentiate between $25 million in revenue for WSWS's cult leader and the $1 million or so income he and Heather rake in, you should be able to tell the difference between the principal of TARP funds and the income as well.

Or do those differences only matter when we are trying the calculate the riches of fake Trotskyite cult leaders?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. You're stalking me, Hampton.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Whether he's stalking you or not, he's right and you're wrong. n/t
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. total TARP funds out vs. $$ returned = ????
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
7. Wait a minute.
So, has the full $700 billion been paid back? How can you count your profits when the full principal has not been paid?

Don't count your chickens before they hatch.

Besides, the banks aren't paying back the value of the warrants, they are paying back what the Treasury is willing to accept. Can I get a deal like this?

"How Old National pulled this off, and the seemingly favorable terms it secured, shows how aggressively banks big and small are pushing, even after they repay money from the Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP. Old National paid $1.2 million for its warrants. Analysts estimate the investments might have been worth as much as $6.9 million.

“It’s a great deal for Old National,” Linus Wilson, a finance professor at the University of Louisiana, Lafayette, told The Times. “Treasury accepted a lowball offer.”
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AndyA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
9. I consider how those banks can afford to repay so quickly.
After all, we are in a severe recession. How can they turn around--during a recession--and go from needing taxpayer money to survive to paying everything back plus?

They did it by raising fees and interest rates on their customers, that's how. And those very same customers are the ones who bailed their sorry asses out last year. It's a disgrace.

REGULATE, REGULATE, REGULATE!

The banking industry and health care insurance industries are the most corrupt (after our politicians!) in the country.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Many of the banks did not want or need a bailout nt
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AndyA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. But a lot of them did.
And most of the big ones have been increasing fees and interest rates during the recession.

And if the bailout was forced on them, even more reason for regulation and an investigation to determine just exactly what happened and who needs to go to jail and pay back the people who lost so much due to their greed/negligence/fraud.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
10. It's not counted as profit until we get our "investment" back. $696B to go. n/t
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Not quite. The amount returned (as of August) was around 70b
The banks that have repaid their loans had to pay interest, and that is where the 4b profit comes in. The 4b was in excess of what those particular banks were lent. When the other banks repay the money, the profit will be even more.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. after a cup of coffee.
I see now.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-18-09 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. let me know when the full $700 B is paid back, let alone the interest.
I don't think it will be anytime soon, do you?
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. The entire amount authorized for TARP was never used
The lack of information about what happened is truly staggering.
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tomm2thumbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 06:36 AM
Response to Original message
21. I guess the govt should have bought out the banks, we'd all be rich!

not
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-19-09 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
22. Not this nonsense again.
Someone clearly slept through economics. Lending curves, principle of diminishing returns, default assumption benchmarks. These things are useful.

Projecting TARP profits based on a couple of early payouts is simply bad accounting. Even moreso when we consider where much of the money these banks used to pay out of TARP came from in the first place. You know, things like TALF, mark to market reform, 0% interest loans from the Fed for trash collateral, etc. TARP is the only bailout with a modicum of oversight built in, limited as it may be. Of course some banks would choose to get out from under the government's rules as quickly as possible once they had no-strings-attached access to taxpayer funds.

What should really send chills up your spine is the fact that so many banks are still unable to make TARP payments, despite the myriad bailouts and newly allowed accounting trickery. This continued weakness is a serious problem, as Krugman elucidated yesterday:

    You may recall that earlier this year there was a big debate about how to get the banks lending again. Some analysts, myself included, argued that at least some major banks needed a large injection of capital from taxpayers, and that the only way to do this was to temporarily nationalize the most troubled banks. The debate faded out, however, after Citigroup and Bank of America, the banking system’s weakest links, announced surprise profits. All was well, we were told, now that the banks were profitable again.

    But a funny thing happened on the way back to a sound banking system: last week both Citi and BofA announced losses in the third quarter. What happened?

    Part of the answer is that those earlier profits were in part a figment of the accountants’ imaginations. More broadly, however, we’re looking at payback from the real economy. In the first phase of the crisis, Main Street was punished for Wall Street’s misdeeds; now broad economic distress, especially persistent high unemployment, is leading to big losses on mortgage loans and credit cards.

    And here’s the thing: The continuing weakness of many banks is helping to perpetuate that economic distress. Banks remain reluctant to lend, and tight credit, especially for small businesses, stands in the way of the strong recovery we need.


And now some actual facts on TARP:

Ethisphere TARP Index Still Down $148.2 Billion Overall as of June 19

According to the Ethisphere TARP Index, when markets closed on Friday, June 19, 2009, the government’s Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) investment was down approximately $148.2 billion. Created by the Ethisphere Institute, a non-partisan research think-tank, the Ethisphere TARP Index tracks the U.S. Federal Government’s return on its investments under the capital purchase portion of TARP and the government’s accompanying loan guarantees provided to Bank of America and Citigroup. With ten of the nation’s leading banks now having paid back their TARP funds, these investments stand at $510.7 billion. To date, each taxpaying household has lost $1,233.

“The $68 billion pay back of TARP funds caused a drop in the bottom line of the Ethisphere TARP Index, but the overall percent decline didn’t see much change,” said Stefan Linssen, Managing Editor of Ethisphere Magazine and one of the lead research analysts behind the Ethisphere TARP Index. “Aside from the large asset guarantees of Citigroup, the last big heavyweights in the Index now are Bank of America, AIG, Citigroup’s CPP money and Wells Fargo, and unfortunately, they are still weighing down the Index. However, with the pay back of TARP money this past week, taxpaying households did see a decrease in the losses they have suffered under TARP, going from $1,361 to $1,233.”

34 Banks Miss TARP Dividends and Almost No One Notices

I will confess I missed a post opportunity Thursday AM, when an alert reader sent a link to a USA Today story, “34 banks don’t pay their quarterly TARP dividends, ” but I decided to return to it precisely because it has gotten little attention:

    The U.S. taxpayers’ investments in smaller banks are increasingly at risk.

    In a sign that more banks are under great pressure from the recession, 34 financial institutions did not pay their quarterly dividends in August to the Treasury on funds obtained under the Troubled Asset Relief Fund (TARP). The number almost doubled from 19 in May when payments were last made, and also raised questions about Treasury’s judgment in approving these banks as “healthy,” a necessary step for them to get TARP funding.

    “The banks are not paying their dividends because they are worried about preserving capital,” says Eric Fitzwater, associate director of research at SNL Financial.


Of the 34 miscreants, two are pretty large, namely AIG and CIT, But the next on the list is First Bancorp, which received a mere $400 million from the TARP. Probably more important than the number is the trend, since the number of institutions that skipped dividends nearly doubled. In a supposedly improving economy and with a steep yield curve (at least until very recently), things appear to be getting worse rather than better.

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