Simply put: A killer was on the loose at VT for nearly 2 hours.

[trumad]

At 7;15 am... the killer killed two people on campus, and then for the next two hours, he was on the loose.

As a parent---- if I found out that two people were killed at my kids campus and that no warning was given my kid that the killer was still on the loose---- I'd be pissed in a big way.

[Xenotime]

1. 100% agreed

VT thought they were just going to sweep this under the rug.

[johnnie]

2. He went back to his dorm

Could you imagine if he wouldn't have gone on a rampage and they put the school on lock down like people are asking? It could have taken days to find out who the killer was and all those students would have been stuck in their dorms for days.

[trumad]

4. your point?

[johnnie]

21. Well

It is easy to say what should have happened after the fact. My point is, if they would have put the campus on lock down and told everyone there was a double-murder and there is a mad gunman loose, I think they might have caused a little bit of a problem. Plus they said that many of the students live off campus, so they would have had to notify them too and blocked all roads coming in and out of the school.

So they would have to have a few more cops there than what the campus employs. They would need to get the word out to 30,000 plus people and that could have taken hours. Ok, now the 2600 acres of the school is completely clear of anyone and everyone. Now it's time to investigate the crime. How long could that have taken? A day? Three days? A week or more? Do they keep everyone on lock down until the shooter is caught?

[damntexdem]

60. Yeah, and when a bomb threat is called in about a building, it might be a hoax.

People would only be upset if they were evacuated. How long might it take to search the building? And think of all of the work that would be lost while they did so -- and might not even find a bomb.

There are supposed to be emergency-management plans, with activation protocols; and they are supposed to be used.

[ends_dont_justify]

62. In my junior high days we had a bomb threat

Suspected targets: cafeteria or gymnasium. While they searched the gymnasium, they sent us all, every one, to the cafeteria. They then had us go to the gymnasium saying 'the gymnasium has been cleared of all potential threat. Now we're going to search this area' someone asks why and we're told 'both areas were targets'.

There ARE supposed to be emergency-management plans...damned if they're ever used.

[flyarm]

40. gee and they may have been alive in their dorms!!..they never closed off the

ENTRANCES TO THE UNIVERSITY...

my son went to VT and the athletes dorm was right next to AJ where those first kids were killed..and nothing was locked down..nothing!! for two damned hours!!

i have seen them lock down the athlete's dorm for a damn football game..that even parents could not go into the dorm accompainied by the student!

where was the homeland security training by the police there??

where were any warnings to the students and faculty??

why weren't the main roads closed immediately with a shooter on the loose??????????????????????//

this is bullshit and it stinks to high heaven!

fly..a former hokie mom

oh and ps my son was there on campus last week visiting..his college..

[johnnie]

50. You're right

I'm wrong

[liberalnurse]

63. I posted a thread on this very issue.

Why didn't VT Campus Police "drop-tones" at the first shooting scene?

I'm sensing they were out of their element. Why? Because they did not sound an all out alert to secure the campus after a quick check at scene #1. They had no weapon/gun for a SI/HI nor did they have an assailant at the scene; thus a fresh murder. Someone was armed and out on the campus at large and probably close enough to hunt down. Two hours was a "gift" window that was ignored.

If tones were dropped; all agencies, fire, rescue, sheriff, state and local police would respond ASAP. With immediate manpower, they should of stopped any additional students entering the campus with fire engines, cops etc....while securing the classrooms. They would of had enough manpower and time.

Standard "drop-tones" and securing a crime scene perimeter would be more effective, dependable and could save lives. Preventing any additional students/staff into the campus was necessary as they did not have the weapon or assailant. Mass Emergency Response from the Dispatch signal of "dropping tones" would of provided enough man-power to block all Primary Campus exits. Police all over the campus securing classroom, Halls and sirens a blairing would of been a major deterrent.

Drop-tones stimulates the police like a hit of crack. They live for the moment. Dropped Tones is like a "Code Blue" in the hospital....

I think VT Campus Police are liable. Sub-standard actions. Heck, I'm a nurse an know this much.

Quick reference:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=drop+ton...

1. Drop Tones:

Phrase. drop (verb) tones (noun)

The act of transmitting an electronic tone or set of tones by radio signal to alert a person or group of people. Terminology typically used by public safety dispatchers and emergency personnel.

Example:

Engine 11 to Fire Dispatch, drop tones for an additional EMT to respond to the scene of the accident

[WilliamPitt]

61. "...stuck in their dorms for days"

...but breathing.

[johnnie]

68. But if nothing had happened

People would be calling for the firing of the chief of police and the president of the school. That was basically my point.

[flyarm]

70. ???? so someone might lose a job?? how about 33 kids losing their lives?????

i guess though it doesn't matter to you??

job..

life??

job...

life??

gee , am i the only one who has a problem with this analogy?????????

i guess it is because i am simply a mom...

but life is a little more important to me!!

and gee wiz..there was a bomb scare, in fact two just last week..where was homeland security..you know that damn fucking yellow green purple pink chart...that we tax payers paid a shit load for ..to provide security in this nation???????????????/and training for first responders!!

so what if it was a nuke bomb that went off..where was the fucking homeland security>?????

why could a 23 yr old buy a clip of bullets for a gun..and no place this clicked off a warning to anyone??????????

but the mother fuckers can tap my fucking phone???????????????/

i will say it again..where was homeland security..this campus had 2 bomb threats last week..was there no hightened alert going on at VTech??????????

bullshit i tell you ..this story does not wash...

there are two main entrances to that university..how do i know?? well my son was a scholarship athlete there and the baseball field was next to a main entrance..that was closed and controlled during baseball games and football games...

so when a shooter was on the lose there ..with two dead bodies in a dorm..no one thought to close the entrances so commuters and faculty were kept out of the school and it wasn't locked down????????/

bullshit!

fly

[melissaf]

3. Plus,

didn't he just go back to his dorm after he shot the first two people? And the police somehow decided that the murderer had fled the _state_? Couldn't they have searched surrounding dorms at the very, very least?

[trumad]

6. Well apparentally it was his ex-girlfriend

so me-thinks they would have found him quick.

[butterfly77]

5. Another thought...

there are killers walking around 24 hrs a day in this country, some of these killers don't do it in mass they do it one by one and aren't caught until years later and some never.

[trumad]

10. I don't see what that has to do with this?

[ThomWV]

7. There Are Killers On The Loose Right This Moment In Every State

Every state, no exceptions. It is only a matter of public noteriety and degree in this case, not a question of the existance of monsters.

[johnnie]

11. We should all be on lock down

No?

[trumad]

20. You people are fucking silly.

and disingenuous when you have nothing intelligent to say.

[johnnie]

22. Deleted by me

No sense in going back and forth. I don't really give a shit anymore.

[trumad]

17. It still has nothing to do with this.

2 kids were killed and no notification of it for two hours.

[NightWatcher]

8. I've heard that in the past two weeks a public address system went in on campus

Why was this not used to warn people?
I'm still trying to verify hard facts, but there are some weird things at play here. Why did the shooter go to the engineering building when he was an english major?
Why did the police wait so long to react? VT has been the scene of numerous "terror drills" in the recent past. They should know what to do and how to react.
There was also a story- unconfirmed that the shooter might have been the person who called in the bomb threats to time the police response.
This is all speculation, but I have tons of questions.

[Cha]

64. Yeah! A Public Adress System would

have worked wonders, no? All campus' and schools should have them for an extra caution.

[mark414]

9. do you really think anybody had any clue what was about to transpire?

i am tired of everybody jumping around trying to find someone to point the finger at and lay blame on every time something bad happens. how about blaming the fucking psycho who pulled the trigger?

sometimes really terrible, awful things that we don't understand and can't explain happen where nobody is to blame (with the obvious exception of psycho).

hindsight is 20/20 and any attempt to lay blame or culpability at the feet of VT officials is, imho, reprehensible.

[trumad]

13. And I'm tired of people like you sticking your heads in the sand.

Answer this: Was there a killer on the loose on the campus from 7:15 to 9:30 am?

[mark414]

26. they thought they had the guy

why would they still be looking or lock down the campus if they thought they had the guy?

you can have all the security plans in the world, but if someone is intent on walking into a building and letting off a bunch of shots, there's absolutely nothing that's going to stop him short of posting armed detail on every street corner in America.

nobody's to blame here, nobody wanted or thought this was going to happen. it's a horrific tragedy and sniping and finger pointing only cheapens the entire thing. i don't have my head in the sand, i'm trying to wrap it around the idea that someone could do something like this...

[Phillycat]

30. This is the part I don't understand.

And I'm NOT sniping, just trying to clarify! They said that they thought they had the guy. I saw the president of the university say the same thing. So, did they have someone in custody at that point? Who? Was it a second person? Is it possible that person was a second shooter? And if they had THE guy (the Asian guy) in custody, did they then let him go?

I just want to know what happened! I'm not judging anyone! (yet)

[mark414]

34. i am not completely sure

there seems to be a clusterfuck of both accurate and inaccurate information floating around out there - which i would say is yet another reason for people to be slow in a rush to judgement because not even the police or the university are fully aware of the how and why of what transpired.

most of what i have seen makes the case that the cops did have someone in custody they thought was responsible for the dorm shooting, and that while he was in custody, the second shooting erupted. others have said that's not true at all.

so who knows? it seems like there was only one shooter and he was responsible for both separate incidents. but still, the information is not there - which is why i'm not rushing to any conclusions and will reserve judgement for a later time...right now is a time to mourn and try to understand how the fuck this could happen.

[Virginia Dare]

36. My theory...

wrong info from one of the witnesses or a case of mistaken identity, they picked up the wrong guy initially.

[liberalnurse]

67. The Officers at the first crime scene

at 7:15 AM failed to secure the campus with given foresight that there was an armed double murderer at large.....within the hour. They failed at their duty. It apparently was beyond their vision and capability.

[kwassa]

49. the cops pulled over and handcuffed a young man ...

who was supposedly the boyfriend of the girl who was killed. He was a student at Radnor University, which is in the area. This was according to NPR.

It is not now clear if he was her boyfriend or an acquaintance.

[BlackVelvet04]

55. Do you mean Radford University? n/t

[kwassa]

58. maybe, I heard it on the radio ....

[liberalnurse]

66. Excellent!

:applause:

[H2O Man]

18. I agree and disagree.

I would prefer to wait until more information is available before trying to decide who, besides the gunman, deserves any blame. I agree with you about hindsight. I do not agree with the "reprehensible" part, however, as I think it is human nature to react in that manner.

[Robbien]

19. So true

The killer killed and there isn't any realistic way anyone would know this would happen.

[gravity]

23. It always seems obvious in hindsight

I don't think that VT did anything wrong. No one had any clue that the killer would strike again in the classroom.

If someone would have said that their was going to be another massacre across campus that morning, I would have thought they were crazy.

[snooper2]

12. Actually, right after the two people were killed everyone on campus

was sent an email from the school administrators..

[trumad]

14. No they were not.

A day after the killings, Virginia Tech police and university officials were answering questions about why no campuswide warning was issued until about two hours after the first attack.

The attacks came as the university was evaluating its campus warning system in response to deadly shootings near the school in August.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/campus.security/index.html

[kiahzero]

15. They thought they had the killer.

They had another guy in custody when the murders at the engineering building happened.

[trumad]

27. No they didn't.

[Virginia Dare]

37. They had a person of interest in custody...

I haven't heard that they knew of any other suspects at the time, but again, I don't think we've heard all of the facts yet.

[MadHound]

71. No they didn't

They had spoken to a person of interest, but never took him into custody.

[AZBlue]

16. Hindsight is 20/20.

They thought this was a domestic violence case and had no reason to think he would kill others. How many cases like this do we unfortunately see weekly in which only those involved in the dispute are affected?

Having said that, if the gunman was a student, why weren't they going after him? He should have been fairly easy to find.

[trumad]

25. He killed two people in a dorm

and he escaped--- he was on the loose. You don't think an immediate notice should have been put out? This isn't no Hindsight crap--- this is pure incompetency!

[BlackVelvet04]

56. And just how do you suggest they do that on a campus the size of

a small city? How do they do that without creating a panic?

[ecstatic]

24. To witness such spinning by the VT president at a time like this was sickening

He reminds me of Rumsfeld.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. OK, Robocop...

How'd you handle the situation?

[kwolf68]

33. One way I would have

Cancel all classes, restrict access into campus (yes, turn every single car away), check people leaving, have security patrol all dorms (since classes are canceled, no need to worry with that building). Now find the fucking guy who killed the first two. We know he would be on campus preferebly not shooting up classrooms of students.

He probably knew nothing would happen...why he waited 2 hours before doing his next thing. They suspect he did the bomb threats to see Tech's policy. He probably saw the weakness and exploited it.

Would this have prevented it all? Who knows, but it was better than a fucking email 2 hours later.

[One_Life_To_Give]

65. Where do you get the cops?

Your going to check 40,000 people leaving the campus over a dozen plus roads. That would take a small army. Especially if you thought to put a tight enough perimeter to keep the shooter from sneaking through. Maybe 500 cops would work. Which after calling in all the local cops from home on the VT and city force you need another 400. Probably take half a day for the state police to reinforce them to that level.


Somehow I also suspect that if we dropped 500 cops in a 1 mile radius around the next shooting in Detroit, Miami, LA or DC. Evacuated the area and tried to search every person leaving. DU and the ACLU would be having major heartburn about the Fascist Regeim doing such.

[trumad]

39. First I would have you arrested for being an ass

then I would do what post 33 posted.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. So you'd have kicked the students out of the classrooms...

potentially creating panic, and exposing them to gunfire from a madman?

Great police work there, Barney.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

41. delete

dupe

[trumad]

45. OK--- lets say they found 5 people dead in that Dorm?

any notification then? or maybe 7 people... any notification then? Or was two the minimum?

Oh and BTW: I'd rather be exposed to gunfire outdoors rather than in a class. You're logic is fucking asinine.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

46. My logic is asinine?

I bet you'd make a great monday morning quarterback.

[trumad]

48. Answer my question

how many people had to be dead in that dorm before they notified the campus?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. Rather irrelevant.

If they have everybody from campus, how do they know the gunman hasn't taken up a position off campus preparing to shoot evacuees as they leave the school?

[trumad]

69. Sounds like guessing to me...

they don't know--- so wouldn't be logical to take care?

So if it was 5 dead in the dorm, would you notify?

[seabeyond]

29. i wouldnt be. i would understand the situation and that there

was for me, no evidence this person was going to be on a murdering rampage. i would not be one of those parent up in arms with the police. i would be with the murdering animal that took the life of my child and so many other peoples loved ones

[trumad]

42. murdering rampage--- 1 more person---3 more people

It doesn't have to be a murdering rampage for it to be dangerous. Was there a killer on the loose for more than 2 hours, yes or no? The answer was yes. And you're OK with no notification? er OK....

[piedmont]

31. 2 1/2 hours actually. 7:15- 9:45 nt

[Decruiter]

32. As always, Tru, you are spot on! That is what I'm angry with.

If it were my daughter's school and she had been put in that level of danger, I would cease to pay the $'s for her to stay enrolled.

[Virginia Dare]

35. Once again, I don't think they realized there was a gunman on the loose..

until it was too late. They arrived at the scene of the first shooting, took in some initial information from witnesses, made some assumptions, probably jumped to some conclusions that they shouldn't have, and thought the situation was contained. They were questioning the individual whom they thought was involved while the second shootings were taking place. They either got some incorrect information from one or more of the witnesses, or it was a case of mistaken identity (my speculation based on what I've heard and read).

IMO, it was a terrible fateful mistake in hindsight, but these are human beings we're talking about, and humans make mistakes.

If after all of the facts come out it turns out that there was indeed negligence on the part of anybody, of course appropriate action should be taken.

I also think that some equally as important questions are, why was he living in a dorm among the student population when he was obviously extremely disturbed and increasingly violent? And how and where did he get his guns?

[Elidor]

38. That's not the point Trumad is making

More than 2 hours after the first 2 killings, many of these people had no idea anything had happened. There was no general warning. Imagine sitting in a class, totally unaware that there were 2 killings just half a mile away. I think that might tend to influence my decision of whether or not to go to class that day.

And so many people on this board think that anyone who questions that is somehow reprehensible. Trumad is exactly right about this. It's outrageous.

And the cops questioning the "person of interest" - they don't assume that just because they're questioning someone that they've solved the crime and everything is okay. Most cops are trained NOT to do that.

[Virginia Dare]

44. I understand his point, he's made it several times today..n/t

[trumad]

47. No I haven't.

Maybe I mentioned it once in another thread--- but this thread was created to discuss this.

[Virginia Dare]

52. I'm not knocking you for your thread...

it was implied that I didn't understand your point, and I do understand it and you certainly have a right to express it, I've expressed mine in several different threads as well. No biggy.

[kwassa]

51. How do you warn 9,000 students on their way to school?

[BlackVelvet04]

54. They tried to warn students to the best of their

ability. Many, if not most, of Tech students DO NOT LIVE ON CAMPUS and were in route to the campus. There is no way to completely lock down a campus the size of a small town in two hours.

The people who were on the campus have for the most part said that it was handled properly given the information the police and administration had.

Those who want to sit back and criticize who have never seen the campus or know the demographics or talked to anyone who was there need to IMO shut the hell up.

Everyone where I live knows someone who works at Tech, goes to Tech or is an alumni at Tech with children there. We are upset, stunned, shocked and saddened and quite frankly sick to death of the criticisms.

[Phillycat]

57. Oh really?

Check flyarm's comment above. Her son was there. She's not shutting the hell up, and frankly, neither am I. I'm not judging or condemning ANYONE at this point, but I DO want to know what the hell happened, because the timeline doesn't make sense as it is. And that's not an unreasonable request.

[damntexdem]

59. But 'nobody could have anticipated' that he would go kill somewhere else.

I think the VA Tech administrators, and local police, suffered from an overdose of Dubya.

[outofbounds]

72. I repeatedly heard

they believed the killer had left the state. Most of the time the shooters are done and fleeing the scene not taking a 2 hr break. They had no way of knowing this guy wasn't finished. Could they have locked down the school? Sure, but they would be under fire for that too. Now that this scenario has played out it will be taken into account from now on. Sane people don't think like insane ones, no one can figure everything out before it happens. There is only one person to blame for this horrific crime. That is the man who committed it.
If they had locked down the school what is to say he wouldn't have killed even more people in his own dorm? :shrug: