If the killer tried to buy his guns in NJ, the cops wouldn't let him.

[brentspeak]

But there's no such safeguard in most other states, including Virginia.

In NJ, it works like this: Anyone seeking a handgun permit must get approval from their local police department. Passing the now-flimsy background check (flimsy because Ashcroft weakened the Brady Law) isn't enough; the local police are allowed to interview you, query neighbors and the community about you, etc. If they discover you to be a shady character, someone who's mentally unstable, i.e. a risk, the cops have the authority to prevent the applicant from being granted a handgun permit.

If Cho Seung-Hui walked into a NJ police station and filled out an application for a handgun permit, he'd never be given one. The cops would ask some questions about him, and discover that he had set fire in his dormitory, had stalked some women on campus, and was generally an ominous character. Thumbs down, even if his background check turned up no convictions or other official flags which would make him automatically ineligible for a permit.

This is the most sane and effective way, along with comprehensive computer background checks, to make sure that as few psychos and criminals get a hold of their tools for mass murder. But you can bet that no matter what, the NRA will do everything it can to prevent it from being implemented in other states. Expect more massacres of the Virginia Tech and Jennifer Sanmarco sort (California postal shooting, bought her guns legally in New Mexico) to keep happening.

[davepc]

1. and if your a black applicant the racist white police chief is free to turn you down

[brentspeak]

2. Yeah, I expected that race argument to pop up.

It's been used over-and-over-and-over by the anti-sane-gun-control crowd.

But it doesn't work that way. The local police have to document their reasons for denying a permit. The state police have to verify that what the local police are documenting is correct. And the rejected applicant can file an appeal to a state board. If some "racist white police chief" really did discriminate against a minority applicant, there's no way he would be able to get away with it.

[Mojorabbit]

3. Pardon me if I

don't want the police to make that decision. Perhaps one is an antiwar protester with politics different from the officer doing the investigation. Perhaps he makes up reasons in his report. But that couldn't happen could it?

[rfranklin]

6. I am a known antiwar protestor since 1970 and I had no problem...

last year. I was asked about my drub habits (none) and any felony convictions (none). I had two references from firends saying I wasn't mentally ill. I got my permit. on edit: I reside in NJ

[Mojorabbit]

28. I am doing homeless feedings

with food not bombs here in Orlando fully expecting to be arrested one of these days. When it happens I will have a record. Would that preclude me from owning a firearm under NJ rules? I really am curious.
Most of my firearms were gifts from family.

[slackmaster]

36. I hear the Orlando PD has a tag-and-release program for the homeless

How's the feeding going?

[Mojorabbit]

40. We had a good crowd Sun despite the weather

The ACLU lawyer was there helping look out for undercover cops. The people in need were happy for the assistance. I am blessed that my hubby is cool with the possibility I will be arrested. The need is overwhelming as it seems to be all over the country.

[brentspeak]

7. Good grief, you didn't read what I wrote

There's no way for a prejudiced officer to get away with discriminating against an applicant. In your hypothetical scenario, they could try it, but it wouldn't work; the applicant would end up being granted a permit, and the cop's career would be over. Cite me a case in NJ where discrimination on this took place, and where it was shown that an applicant was unfairly denied a permit. You won't be able to.

[Irreverend IX]

48. You honestly think that?

The whole point of the original laws against CCW without a license were so Southern police chiefs could deny black people the right to carry. Just like cops can pull any reason out of their ass to arrest someone ("disturbing the peace," "malicious mischief," etc.) they can invent any reason to deny someone a permit. The whole justice system is weighted in their favor.

If a cop denies someone a permit because he's black and it's blatantly obvious, the cop might get in trouble if the black guy has millions of dollars to spend on a lawsuit, but most people don't. Denying a permit to a known liberal protestor would be even easier. They could say the applicant associated with anarchists and other violent groups; there are sure to be a few people matching that description at some anti-war protests.

Literacy tests for voting also sounded like a good idea to a lot of people, but in the end they were just an excuse to deny civil rights.

[brentspeak]

50. It doesn't work that way here

You would have to find an example of someone being successfully discriminated against in NJ for your arguments to have any bearing.

[Mojorabbit]

51. I still would like to know

if someone with a record of arrest for civil disobedience could get a permit for a gun in NJ.

[treestar]

25. This is a separate issue and a separate problem

IMHO, the NJ way sounds rational, if it has race discrimination problems, tackle that rather than just hand gun permits out to anyone in an attempt to avoid it.

[slackmaster]

4. A NJ gun dealer wouldn't have sold one to him anyway

You can't buy a handgun other than in your state of residence.

[brentspeak]

8. Yes, I know that.

If Cho Seung-Hui was a Rutgers college student instead of a VT student, he wouldn't have been able to make his purchase. There's no logical reason why Virginia (and other states, I don't want to single out Virginia) can't have the same system.

[Solo_in_MD]

11. Impractical politically and socially biased are good reasons the NJ system is unacceptable

[slackmaster]

18. Agreed - the NJ system would be a non-starter in most of California

Fuggedaboudit.

[brentspeak]

30. Care to explain?

What you mean by "impractical politically" and also by "socially biased"?

on edit: I think I know what you mean by "impractical politically". Too many voters in "gun" states would be opposed to the NJ system, and local politicians wouldn't want to chance supporting that kind of unpopular (but completely rational) legislation.

[michreject]

5. I have a CCW

I don't have to ask anyone, anything. I just buy it.

[Xenotime]

17. How is this legal? I just don't get it?!?

I thought we had progressed in society more than this. I am fuckin floored.

[michreject]

20. How is what legal?

My ability to buy a gun without having to ak for permission? I have a CCW. My background has been checked out. I'm a fine upstanding person.

[Solo_in_MD]

9. So rights should be subject to the whims of the unaccountable constabularly?

The level of capriousness and abuse with the NJ process is legendary. It favors the rich vs the poor to an extreeme. Sounds like something all progressives should support. :sarcasm:

[Dr Fate]

45. Exactly. The whims of the unaccountable gunman are much more important than that of law enforcement.

If our hero wants to waltz in and buy some guns & ammo, he should be able to do so without some unaccountable cop poking around.

Next thing you know we are going to have to get permits-and jump through other unreasononable time place & manner restictions before we hold massive street demonstrations and such- or make churches APPLY for their tax exempt status. Oh the horror.

[villager]

10. but the killer had *rights* to have those guns, and, and... well, too bad for the dead!

right?

[LiberalEsto]

12. That's why I'm proud to be from NJ

When we moved to the DC area 16 years ago, we had a choice of living in Maryland or Virginia. Dave's new job was in DC. It was a no-brainer for us to pick Maryland, because its gun laws are far more sensible than those of Virginia.

I once told Senator Barbara Mikulski about that and she thought it was great that this was a big factor in our decision. I've met a number of other people who picked Maryland for the same reason.

[-..__...]

14. Speaking of DC...

how's the handgun ban working there? I'll bet the gun related crime rates have been at an all time low since the brianiacs there passed that gem.

[LiberalEsto]

21. They buy 'em from Virginia

where else?

[DainBramaged]

23. Been here all my life

Fought the opening of the gun store in Rockaway Boro. When it passed the town council, I moved. Piss ant little town wants to be known for guns and bad schools.


If the rest of the country followed NJ laws, we'd have far fewer problems.

[-..__...]

13. NJ gun control laws are an abomination.

Hell... I live in MA so I know what onerous gun control laws are like.

MA has a similar law for the issuance of firearms permits... one must have "permission" from the
police chief in order to obtain a license.

There's plenty of things I'd like to see changed with MA gun control laws, but if I could only choose one to abolish... it would be the "may issue" policy with regard to firearms licenses.

No one person should be allowed that kind of authority.

[brentspeak]

31. Yeah, they're an "abomination" to psychos and criminals

and to some of the gun zealots. Everyone else, including average Joe and Jane gun owners, have no problem with them -- especially since the laws help keep them alive.

[aikoaiko]

15. I'm sympathetic, but where is the due process in that law?

If my neighbor says I'm crazy, then the popo can deny me a gun. Thats so wrong.

[kiahzero]

24. It's not really different from the security clearance process.

If your neighbors say you're crazy and the interviewer believes them, you're not getting your clearance.

[aikoaiko]

33. Sure, but there is no 2nd amendment right to getting security clearance.

In other words, denying 2nd amendment rights, or voting rights, or other civil rights should not be curtailed easily.

[kiahzero]

37. There's no 2nd Amendmenr right against the states.

It's never been incorporated.

[aikoaiko]

38. I'm not sure what that means?

Do you mean states can infringe on gun rights? That the 2nd Amendment only applies to federal law?

[kiahzero]

44. Precisely.

The parts of the Bill of Rights that apply to the states do so only because they have been "incorporated" against the several States via the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause. Similarly, the Equal Protection Clause, which only applies to the several States by its wording, only applies to the federal government because it has been "incorporated" against the federal government via the Fifth Amendment's Due Process Clause.

This is also the reason why you don't have to have a jury trial in state court for a civil case; the right to a jury trial for controversies over $20 was never incorporated.

[treestar]

27. There probably is a procedure for appeal

There always is, due to those concerns.

[aikoaiko]

34. I'd like to hear it and generally its difficult to prove a negative.

[Marrah_G]

16. Mass and RI have the same types of system I think

Both times when my ex and I moved he had to leave his handgun at work until the local police had signed off on his permits.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DainBramaged]

22. Aren't all of the gangs based in California?

Nice assumption. I guess you watch the Sopranos.:banghead:

[murloc]

26. Thats a good point

While I support gun control laws, it has not been able to keep guns out of gangs hands AND the mafia.

Both California, NY and NJ have failed to reign in gun violence through strict gun control.

Sopranos is fiction. (although the creator is from NJ and based his writing on personal experiences of what he saw growing up)

What is not fiction is where most of the mafia is headquartered. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Families

[brentspeak]

29. You have no idea what you're talking about

NJ doesn't have anywhere near the kind of gun violence many of the laissez-faire "gun" states do. Most of the gun violence that takes place here occurs in the inner cities (as is the case in most other states). But there's an important difference: most of the guns used to commit violence in NJ are obtained from out of state; 80% of the time, criminals have to leave NJ in order to get their guns.

p.s. The "mafia" doesn't control NJ and NY police departments. Sounds like you've watched "The Godfather" a few too many times.

[Reverend_Smitty]

32. thank you!

It seems like people forget that our state extends south of Newark and if anyone has ever been to South Jersey, they would not think the Mafia runs anything there. The three most crime ridden cities in the state where the bulk of gun related deaths occur (Newark, Camden and Trenton) many are gang related. Which is a whole other issue that we need to address as a society

[brentspeak]

35. You're welcome, Rev.

:)

[murloc]

39. I didnt mean to offend you or your state

really I didnt

Its just that when I think of places with a crime problem, I think several places, including NY, NJ, DC and parts of California. There are other areas of course.

I've been to several places in NJ and honestly, while I didnt feel safe at all, Im sure that are some nice places there.

cheers

[Reverend_Smitty]

42. none taken...

:)

it's really more of a lifetime of hearing "What exit are you from" jokes and that my state is nothing more than refineries and mafia hangouts. It's really a nice place to live...while it may have 3 cities in the top 25 most dangerous places to live, it also has 3 (including the top spot) cities that are the safest places to live.

[brentspeak]

47. No offense taken

[DainBramaged]

52. Wrong, NJ gun control laws work

It's the rest of the idiotic states and gun show/ 3 day wait laws that failed.

Oh, I forgot, I don't watch the Sopranos, I don't have HBO. ANd don't reply. I won't answer.

[marions ghost]

41. the mafia

are all over the country. Where u been?

[murloc]

46. at the risk of continuing the thread

You are absolutely right, they are everywhere and in proably in places we would least expect.

I was trying to point out, perhaps unfairly, they are, by and large headquartered and based in an area where gun control is at it strongest.

FWIW, I think its worth examining how it seems the the worst excesses of crime (i.e. mafia, gangs, shootings like at VA), seem to escape even our best efforts at prevention and enforcement.

How do we keep guns out of criminals hands, get help to those who need mental health services(would the killer even have accepted help?), etc without becoming a police state? I wish I had some good answers.

[marions ghost]

49. If we really trusted our own government

we would accept more social controls and efforts to reduce violence. But people won't trust a corrupt government with control, even if it would benefit them. No confidence. So we allow random killings like this, which happen every day with only 1-2 victims, to continue. If we had a government that really cared about its citizens, strong gun control would be part of that caring.

Fears of a police state are real to me too, but even in light of that, I think New Jersey has the right idea. I don't think the fact that the mafia is/was based in New Jersey is a relevant argument against strong gun control.

[aikoaiko]

43. Even the strict NJ laws are not perfect and may not have stopped this.

[brentspeak]

53. They're not perfect, but they likely would have thwarted Cho from getting his guns

He'd have to try his luck on the black market. A middle-class Korean-American college kid? Unlikely he'd know the location of the inner city firearms black market, nor how to navigate it. Here in NJ, even the inner city gang members have trouble finding guns; they have to smuggle them in from out-of-state.

[Solo_in_MD]

54. Poor speculation at best

You are aware that if a person is denied a security clearance or a police permission to own a gun (a blatanly illegal construct), the person under investigation can demand any negative information received the name of who provided it.