Nurses to sue New York over [swine flu] vaccination mandate

[acsmith]

Source: WTEN.com

Count four Albany County nurses among those scared of H1N1.

Not the virus itself, but of the vaccine for it that New York is requiring all health care workers to receive by the end of November.

"Receiving the vaccine doesn't mean you're not going to get the flu," says Lorna Patterson, an emergency room nurse at Albany Medical Center. She is one of the four nurses who are planning to file a lawsuit this week against New York in order to stop the state from enforcing its mandatory vaccinations. In addition to H1N1--or swine flu--nurses, doctors, and others who care for the health of others in New York will have to receive a seasonal flu shot. It's the first time the state has mandated such a vaccination.

Read more: http://www.wten.com/Global/story.asp?S=11299035

[Lance_Boyle]

1. Did they also sue over the mandatory Hep B vaccines required to work in patient contact

areas in NYC hospitals? Gawds but this is fucking nuts.

[still_one]

3. You are darn right it is nuts, and that is why 99% of all healthcare professionals

get the vaccine

[acsmith]

7. you are 100% wrong

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/11/swine-flu-pandemic-vaccine-nhs

[still_one]

14. I am not talking about the swine flue vaccine, I don't recall seeing that in the original post

[acsmith]

16. a deserved apology then.

sorry.

[still_one]

I am sorry also, if I seemed defensive /nt

[notesdev]

6. The vaccine is dangerous and untested

This vaccine was rushed to market and the nurses know it. Combine that with H1N1 being a big ol' nothingburger of a threat, and you're wondering why people don't want to take it?

If you want to volunteer to be a guinea pig yourself, go ahead and call up the vaccine manufacturer. I don't blame them one bit.

Here's a hint: a safe vaccine doesn't require legal immunity from damage caused.

[WriteDown]

9. Odd.....

The salk vaccine had plenty of problems, but no one complained about a possible cure for polio. The choice is simple, get the vaccine or get a new job.

[still_one]

18. They don't give the oral polio vaccine anymore because of the risk for getting polio /nt

[WriteDown]

23. Yep...

I was commenting on why vaccines are shielded from lawsuits. The salk vaccine is still regarded as an amazing stride for immunology.

[kimmerspixelated]

29. One could connect some major dots, couldn't they?

Didn't Salk himself come out to say that the vaccine helped to spread the disease?

[Maru Kitteh]

74. Yeah, that's why there's so much ****ing polio around in the US these days.

Jesus wept.

Nations reverted back to the "killed" virus vaccine because of the success of the oral vaccine.

From wiki on the OPV

Oral polio vaccine (OPV) is a live-attenuated vaccine, produced by the passage of the virus through non-human cells at a sub-physiological temperature, which produces spontaneous mutations in the viral genome. <27> Oral polio vaccines were developed by several groups, one of which was led by Albert Sabin. Other groups, led by Hilary Koprowski and H.R. Cox, developed their own attenuated vaccine strains. In 1958, the National Institutes of Health created a special committee on live polio vaccines. The various vaccines were carefully evaluated for their ability to induce immunity to polio, while retaining a low incidence of neuropathogenicity in monkeys. Based on these results, the Sabin strains were chosen for worldwide distribution.<20>

There are 57 nucleotide substitutions which distinguish the attenuated Sabin 1 strain from its virulent parent (the Mahoney serotype), two nucleotide substitutions attenuate the Sabin 2 strain, and 10 substitutions are involved in attenuating the Sabin 3 strain.<6> The primary attenuating factor common to all three Sabin vaccines is a mutation located in the virus's internal ribosome entry site (or IRES)<28> which alters stem-loop structures, and reduces the ability of poliovirus to translate its RNA template within the host cell.<29> The attenuated poliovirus in the Sabin vaccine replicates very efficiently in the gut, the primary site of infection and replication, but is unable to replicate efficiently within nervous system tissue. OPV also proved to be superior in administration, eliminating the need for sterile syringes and making the vaccine more suitable for mass vaccination campaigns. OPV also provided longer lasting immunity than the Salk vaccine. As with other live-virus vaccines, immunity initiated by OPV is probably lifelong.<26>



And wiki on iatrogenic polio

The rate of vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP) varies by region but is generally about 1 case per 750,000 vaccine recipients.

As the incidence of wild polio diminishes, nations transition from use of the oral vaccine back to the injected vaccine because the direct risk of iatrogenic polio (VAPP) due to OPV outweighs the indirect benefit of immunization via subclinical transmission of OPV. When IPV is used, reversion is not possible but there remains a small risk of clinical infection upon exposure to reverted OPV or wild polio virus. Following the widespread use of polio vaccines in the mid-1950s, the incidence of poliomyelitis declined rapidly in many industrialized countries. The use of OPV was discontinued in the United States in 2000 and in 2004 in the UK, but it continues to be used around the globe.<13><24>



Ignorance kills.

[INdemo]

46. It took much longer to develop the Salk vaccine and it was tested much longer before it

was offered to the public..and in those days the drug companies did not own the FDA like today..The drug companies today rarely have a drug rejected and most drugs on the market today have so many side effects it is unreal how they can be offered to the public with an FDA approval so quickly

[WriteDown]

47. And that testing did what exactly?

Was the Salk vaccine safe? Drug companies rarely have a drug rejected? Seriously?

[marybourg]

55. Yes, the Salk vaccine was safe. You may be confusing it with

the oral Sabin live virus vaccine which did have at least one episode of manufacturing defect causing polio in some patients, including a teen friend of mine.

[WriteDown]

56. You are correct..

I always got those two similar names confused.

[Liberal Veteran]

11. Using that "logic" every seasonal flu vaccine is "rushed to market"

What? You think they have a stockpile in the freezer for whatever variant of seasonal flu comes to market or do you think they have to make new batches every single year.

[still_one]

20. I think what is being referred to here is the H1N1 vaccine, and the thought

that this isn't a typical vaccine because the H1N1 virus is unusual in that it contains human and animal components

[Liberal Veteran]

24. Uh huh. And growing seasonal human flu vaccine in chicken eggs only contains fairy dust?

[kestrel91316]

38. It doesn't "contain human and animal components". It DOES have genetic

material from swine flu viruses AND avian flu viruses AND human flu viruses, IIRC. And yes, Virginia, there IS a difference.

It's still just a flu vaccine. Nothing very mysterious or strange.

[Liberal Veteran]

41. But it has a name! Named flu = different!

:rofl:

[Lance_Boyle]

12. I suppose, maybe, except for that pesky FDA approval process

and the clinical trials showing it to be generally recognized as safe and effective. Aside from that maybe it's untested and/or dangerous. :eyes:

[Liberal Veteran]

15. Not to mention Britain and France using the vaccine as well.

Just a preemptive strike on the inevitable "YOU CAN'T TRUST THE FDA!" woo.

[kestrel91316]

39. +10

[damntexdem]

19. Vaccines are rushed to market for a reason: to stop the flu before it becomes a pandemic.

And EVERY medicine requires either legal immunity or a good legal staff, because litigation happens.

[kimmerspixelated]

27. DINGDINGDINGDING!

NOTESDEV is right! The Bush administration made sure the drug companies were completely covered against lawsuits of any damages. That is the lovely red herring! The truth is the official website even claims that 30k will be maimed or killed. I guess some folks might think that there is always some danger involved with vaccines, and that it is part of the tradeoff. Well, I think it is insanity to knowingly let some one inject you with toxins, adjuvants,thimerosol, you name it, just in the hope that it MIGHT protect you.

[WriteDown]

30. And who really wants to catch autism. nt.

[SPedigrees]

31. Don't count me among "people" who don't want it. Plenty of us do want this protection. nt

[Veilex]

36. there are plenty of ways to protect yourself...

Eat right, exercise, drink plenty of water.
Oh and wash your hands often.

This has been blown way out of proportion. Its like getting a cold or the standard flu...
except that it goes through its cycles a bit quicker.
Good common sense hygiene will keep you from needing this vaccine (or run any risks in getting it).

[Liberal Veteran]

37. And don't forget

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

60. And let's not forget prayer in Jesus.

And pure strength of will.

Because that prevents deadly viruses.

[Horse with no Name]

62. You are full of shit

People.are.dying.
Kids.are.dying.
I don't care how many fucking time you wash your hands you can still die because this fucking thing is AIRBORNE!

[notesdev]

51. It's not a matter of "want"

it's a matter of a threat to take the injection or be fired.

Those who want it can get it. Those who don't want it shouldn't be forced into a no-recourse position that risks their health.

This is an especially stupid move in the context of not having enough health care workers and having to import nurses from the Philippines by the boatload.

Any regime under which you can force someone to do something against their will, is one that WILL be turned against you, to force you to do something against your will. It's not even a matter of if, it's just a matter of when.

[havocmom]

64. Forcing them to get the shot or be fired yet drug company can't be sued if it hurts them

THERE'S the problem. There were some pretty nasty reactions to the swine flu vaccine back in the 70s. Sure, different vaccine, but why would the drug companies need protection from liability if they weren't worried about problems?

And if one of the nurses forced to take the shot has an adverse reaction that causes some disability, who pays for lost wages?

Sounds like a real bad hand to have to play. Thinking I would throw in the cards and go to a different table myself. We need to stop treating nurses like shit in this country. Forcing them to take a shot that drug companies have no liability for is pretty damned shitty.

[NavyDavy]

68. I guess thats why Drs have malpractice insurance.....

:crazy:

[havocmom]

70. sorry, fail to see your point

Employers will fire if they don't get shots for which the manufacturers have no liability. How the hell would a doctor's malpractice insurance come into the conversation? A bad reaction, causing a disability would not be the fault of the doctor. It could be the fault of the MANUFACTURER. But any nurse having such a reaction would be SOL.

I'll see your :crazy: and raise with a :wtf:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. Well now that's complete false.

The nurses don't want it because they're fucking lying morons.

And litiguous, apparently.

[alarimer]

58. It is not dangerous and untested; that is a LIE.

Perpetrated by IDIOT anti-vax types who do not know shit about science and less about influenza vaccines.

[still_one]

2. Yeah, millions of Doctors and Nurses who meet the public everyday shouldn't have the vaccine?

and I guess that should apply to kids to, with DPT and other contagious diseases huh?

[Warpy]

4. Some people just don't like being told what to do

and facts won't sway them.

These nurses have a perfect right to risk their health by turning down the vaccine. They don't have a right to risk their patients' health.

My guess is that since they haven't objected to any other mandatory vaccinations, they don't have a case. They can either quit caring for patients or take the shot.

[damntexdem]

21. They don't have to be swayed, and need not to what they're told -- but they need to find other jobs

I don't want to be treated by someone who is a risk of spreading a contagious disease to me.

[kestrel91316]

40. +10

[alarimer]

59. Make it simple: no vaccine, no working with patients.

Their not getting the vaccine can actually kill people whose immune systems are compromised.
They are simply being selfish.

No vaccine, you get to do paperwork in some part of the building where you cannot make anyone else sick.

[robo50]

5. Fine, if they don't want to take the vaccine, they can work in jobs that

don't involve human contact until the flu season is over.

I guess they would rather get the flu and spread it to their patients and all co-workers and others that they come in contact with.


This is absolutely the most ridiculous paranoid fear among people who are supposed to be trained in the SCIENCE of medicine, not those scared by the likes of Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh. I cannot understand how these people, who profess to be on the "do no harm" side of medicine can so radically increase the risk of exposing themselves, their family, their patients and co-workers to a known deadly virus.

Please explain why these unvaccinated "nurses" should be treating me and my family this flu season.

[SPedigrees]

33. Well said. My thoughts exactly. nt

[Liberal Veteran]

8. In a related story, Restaurant Workers Sue Over Hand Washing Mandate

[robo50]

13. Yeah, I will go to THOSE restaurants from now on... I really think hand-washing

is too much of a government imposed burden on freedom loving Americans. I support freedom, and oppose big government mandates.

(God, I hope no one thinks I am serious!)

[SPedigrees]

34. Perfect analogy! Hand soap has yet to be proven 100% safe. nt

[kestrel91316]

43. Worse. Hand soap kills people (when they eat entire bars of it in

a drug-crazed frenzy, granted) - NO ONE SHOULD BE FORCED TO USE IT!!!!11!!!1!!!

[kestrel91316]

42. ROFLMAO.

[WriteDown]

10. Why would they want to get autism?

Molto :sarcasm:

[damntexdem]

17. A very reasonable requirement.

If the nurses don't want the vaccine, they should find another line of work where they can't do too much harm: maybe trading in derivatives. ;-)

[kimmerspixelated]

32. There is nothing reasonable about Health Fascism.

[PADemD]

22. Maybe they remember "The last great swine flu epidemic"

http://www.salon.com/env/feature/2009/04/28/1976_swine_flu/

[robo50]

25. Over 70 children are already dead in the USA! How many deaths

justify the idiocy of Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh having the influence they have with simple minded people who profess to be nurses in the "first, do no harm" profession?

Do you actually think we should INCREASE the risk to children and others by allowing these non-vaccinated nurses to simply flip the bird to their government mandates, simply because some 33 year old prediction was wrong?

Logic missing from your theory, how many children's deaths is OKAY with you, just so these fools can continue practicing the nursing profession and ignore the scientifically reasonable orders of their employer?

[acsmith]

28. i posted this above, maybe you didnt see it...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/11/swine-flu-pandemic-vaccine-nhs

what is it you think that is making these nurses so scared of this vaccine? and before you answer, people in the europe generally don't know who Rush or Glenn Beck are (or even if they do they don't watch their shows).

[Liberal Veteran]

35. Nurses aren't necessarily free from believing crap they read online.

Hell, even doctors and people with pretty decent scientific credentials can fall prey to bullshit.

[acsmith]

44. did you read the article?

that is quite stunning numbers of brainless nurses going around.

the simple answer is that they are professionals and know lots more about it than you. you should listen to people who know what they are talking about. perhaps you will disagree with what they say but you should at least understand their argument.

[Liberal Veteran]

45. Sweetie, I work in the health care field and encounter nonsense from my peers on a daily basis.

I had one person who is extremely good at her job and otherwise very knowledgeable expound on the virtues of ear candles to me for 30 minutes one time.

[Heddi]

48. Dearie, I'm a nurse, and these nurses are full of shit

Just because someone has RN or LPN behind their name doesn't mean they're a genius.

I have worked with RN's who:

1) Thought Australia was next to England
2) Didn't know which continent Canada was on (this was when I worked in Washington, btw)
3) Think Obama was born in Kenya

Their argument is nonsensical and at least we know who these nurses are so that people can keep their loved ones away from them. Anyone who is gullible enough to believe this H1N1 conspiracy nonsense should be kept as far away from a hospital as possible.

[WriteDown]

49. Okay, I've got to hear a more elaborate story for 1 and 2....

I cannot imagine.

[Heddi]

54. Okay

So Mr. Heddi and I were going to Thailand for vacation. A RN that floated to the unit I worked on asked where Thailand was. I told her it was in the south pacific, attached to Asia. That got a very confused look, so I said that it was just to the north of Australia. She said "Aus-trail-ya....hmmmm" you could see the wheels turning and smoke was coming out of her ears. "Aus-trayl-ya....isn't that by, um, England?"

I said, uh, no, it's in the pacific ocean, it's a huge continent in the pacific ocean kind of south of Hawaii.

that got an even more puzzled look.

I said "Hawaii...off the coast of california" (at this point I'm trying to simplify it as much as possible"

again, blank stare.

I said 'You DO know where California is, right?" (we lived in Washington State....so it was just, yanno, ONE STATE AWAY)

"uh...yeah..yep." (didn't sound very confident)

"So you know there's an ocean off the coast of California...the Pacific Ocean, the same one off of the coast of Washington, right"

"you know, I'm completely lost..."

oy.

She then says "Yanno, I haven't looked at one of those....what do you call them..." while making a round gesture with her hands
"I haven't looked at one of those...um...round things.."
me: um, a GLOBE?
Her: yeah, I haven't looked at one of those....
Me: GLOBE????
Her: yeah, since I was, like, 9 or something.

At that point I walked away and never looked back.

until later that night when she heard me talking about a trip to Vancouver BC I was making with my husband.

She said Ooooh where's that?

I said Um, Vancouver BC...it's about 2 hours north of Seattle.....

She said "Oh, wow, what continent is that on"

I said IT'S TWO HOURS NORTH OF SEATTLE. IT's the same continent!!!!

She was a real ding-a-ling to put it gently.

[WriteDown]

57. How on Earth...

And I do mean on Earth, does a person like that get through school?

[gkhouston]

61. This explains a lot about my last hospital experience.

:crazy:

[Maru Kitteh]

66. "that is quite stunning numbers of brainless nurses going around. "

YES by Jove, now you're getting the hang of it.

Since you believe that nurses are professionals who know better than you - allow me to tell you that those nurses HAVE NO ARGUMENT. They have hysteria, they have misinformation, they have a distinct deficiency of logical thought and reason, but they have no argument.

[uppityperson]

72. I'm a nurse also and yes, it is stunning the #s of brainless nurses (as you put it)

I knew a nurse who would not give a dying cancer patient morphine for pain because she was worried he'd get addicted. I work with a nurse who swears Pres Obama isn't a USA citizen. Odd. But just because you are a nurse, or a health care professional, does not mean you can tell truth from omg fear tactics.

[newblewtoo]

52. great article

It took me a minute to find it but it was well worth the time. I had forgotten all about Legionnaire's Disease and the ensuing panic it set off. The vaccine in '76 was a case where the cure was worse than the disease for many.

[Horse with no Name]

63. Actually the evidence has never really bared out the swine flu

and Guillian-Barre connection.
There wasn't a spike in expected numbers that year, and there was never any direct evidence.
However, it makes good woo-woo talk.

[neverforget]

75. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink it. Same thing

with anti-knowledge, anti-science, anti-vaccination people. Stubborn with their belief even though the evidence says otherwise.

[endless october]

26. health care workers have to be vaccinated against all sorts of illnesses.

shit, i had to get a ton of vaccines just to continue getting my MA.

i have no problem, though, if they want believe in anti-vaccine hysteria. they can quit their jobs and not get the vaccine.

[Pavulon]

53. Thank Jenny McCarthy and the other idiots

for this reaction. Take the dose or get out. My wife works in medical field and is required to take several vaccinations to work in contact with patients. Has for years.

Lorna may be looking for a job soon.

[Maru Kitteh]

65. BINGO.

[earth mom]

67. Wow-thanks for posting this, I wish I had seen it sooner because I would have recommended for sure.

Go Nurses! :thumbsup:

[NavyDavy]

69. alot of gullible people, including nurses

[earth mom]

71. Look in the mirror. nt

[Maru Kitteh]

73. I know you are but what am I I know you are but what am I I know you are but what am I

Nice comeback there.

Reason
Logic
Facts
Statistics
Evidence

All of these things are stacked against the woo.