The Virginia Tech campus shooting did not shock me.

[cosmik debris]

I know that I live in a society where it is easy to get a gun, but hard to get treatment for mental health issues.

I know that I live in a society where gun ownership is looked on as a good thing, but visiting a mental health professional is looked on as a bad thing.

I know that I live in a society that teaches that violence is one option for solving social problems.

I know that I live in a society where my right to own a gun is more important than my neighbor’s right to live in peace.

And I believe that we all know these things.

So this school shooting did not shock me. Nor did the last school shooting. Nor will the next school shooting shock me. I will be shocked if our society says it has had enough and changes its values and rules. But until that happens, I will not be shocked.

[trotsky]

1. Well said, cd. n/t

[EnviroBat]

2. Me niether... n/t

[Ian David]

3. The liberal media is refusing to report all the good news about campuses that didn't have shootings

We're making progress!

[il_lilac]

4. I wish it had shocked me-

thanks k&r

[cosmik debris]

7. I wish it had scared the shit out of you.

And me too. But it didn't. Did it?

[AnnInLa]

5. I was thinking about this very thing yesterday

but for a different reason....I have been so inured to killing, violence, war, and HATE, that nothing surprises me anymore. In our society, if it doesn't affect us on a personal level, it doesn't sink in anymore. I don't like being like this.

[cascadiance]

11. I was also thinking that being "jaded" towards violence is the most dangerous aspect of all...

We should never get pushed into accepting these sorts of acts and numbed by them happening. If we get pushed back towards feeling this is situation normal and just accept it without doing anything about it, or accepting that our government doesn't do anything about it, that's a bad day I don't want to see happen.

Now, that doesn't mean we should be cowed toward inaction because of our fear of them, as my avatar so aptly pointed in in the movie V for Vendetta. There may be times where we need to face death or other horrible acts towards ourselves and our fellow men in the face of having to act where it might be needed in this nation where each day we go steadily closer to fascism. But we should NEVER accept it and do nothing about it. It is still horrible when innocent people lose their lives like this, no matter who the perpetrator is!

A week ago, though Vivian Stringer had earlier left my college team Iowa to coach at Rutgers, I was a Scarlet Knight then!

Yesterday, though Iowa lost to earlier to VT this year in basketball, I'm a Hokie today!

[coalition_unwilling]

69. "Violence is as American as cherry pie" - H. Rap Brown. -n/t

[raccoon]

6. Excellent post. You made some good points. K&R. nt

[bonzotex]

8. agreed...nice simple points, thank you ....n/t

[John Q. Citizen]

9. Didn't shock me either. Heck we spend 50% of our national budget on the

military.

[Hokie]

10. Shootings will happen like this again

I am saddened and disappointed that this happened at my Alma Mater. However, I am neither shocked nor surprised that it happened. This is a direct result of the insane, gun worshiping policies supported by the NRA and the gun lobbies. They are willing to tolerate events like this to preserve the right to own any kind of weapon that they desire with no encumbrances. If any NRA member expresses remorse to me I will tell them to save their breath.

[Goblinmonger]

12. Absolutely

Yet this will turn into a gun rights debate. Oh, wait, it all ready has.

I, like you, wish I would have seen the story come up on my computer screen and said, "No fucking way." But, you are right: I didn't.

[cosmik debris]

16. And it will be the same next time too.

And we will have weeping and gnashing of teeth for a few days and then return to relative normality. We have accepted that this is the price we pay for our second amendment rights. And Sooooo many Americans think that the price is right.

[Goblinmonger]

17. Not an attempt to hijack your thread

but hardly anyone in america that is shocked and appalled by this shooting spree even knows or cares about the 500 people a day that are killed in Iraq.

[cosmik debris]

21. This guy killed fewer people

Than the typical car bomb in Baghdad. But...

[patrice]

48. I don't see this as hijacking. It is, in fact, the point:

The experience may be shocking, but it is NOT a surprise.

We accept all kinds of Death all of the time. We even glory in it. You should have seen what ran on the front page, and 2 full internal pages, in our newspaper Sunday - the glorification of a pregnancy that everyone involved knew would end in the immediate, or near future, Death of the fetus. Do you think there would have been nearly so intense interest if the child were going to be born okay? Or if it were the child of "a welfare queen"? - NO, she would have been vilified as irresponsible.

Or - Turn on the TV. This IS what we are.

[patrice]

68. BTW, think of the health-care $$$ spent on that pregnancy compared to what

isn't spent on those deemed unworthy for whatever reason.

[NI4NI]

59. I sadly agree,

Just like 8 years ago in the aftermath of Columbine, I'm still hearing the same exact arguments, questions, blames, causes and effect, shock and outrage, prayers and condolences.

What was learned then? What was done since?

Paraphrasing the father of one Columbine victim I heard being interviewed today.... "considering the fact that the dealer who sold the shotgun to the Columbine killers (then showed them how to saw off the gun barrel) was only given a slap on the wrist with a fine, nothing was".

[Dorian Gray]

13. Despite all that is wrong in our society

it SHOULD shock you when humans behave in such a way. I will always find this type of event not only sorrowful, but shocking as hell. I expect more goodness from humanity, I suppose. I am an optimist, so when something like this happens, it takes me by surprise.

[lectrobyte]

14. And it's only news because of the scale. If it had been 2 or 3 dead, then

no big news, those happen all the time, seemingly.

[Forrest Greene]

15. I Agree

Until we deal with these things, we are not being serious, & those thirty-some deaths yesterday, along with all the others, will mean nothing but just another story that writes itself so that the ads on news shows won't run into one another.

[ThatsMyBarack]

18. Well put!

K&R! :kick:

[patrice]

19. Of course it didn't. It is the most likely consequence of who and what "we" are.

Look at the trajectory of this country from day one.

Unlike Europe, we have never been subjected to universal, pro-longed, and repeated violence perpetrated on our general citizenry, i.e. we've never had our average inclinations toward violence kicked-the-HELL out of us.

And don't bring up 9/11, because as horrific as that was, on the average, it was something that HAPPENED TO SOMEONE ELSE. It resulted in very little or NO individual/personal changes in the American zeitgeist. 9/11, in fact, resulted in an intensification of our historical patterns: more violence, superstitious persecutions (witch hunts), genocide, slavery, and racism.

Violence has made us a culture enfatuated with DEATH. I've seen death up close and personal; I know its "attractions", but a real "Culture of Life" would recognize how Violence (in any form), anywhere from the womb to the tomb, robs the individual of his/her own Death and THAT affects whatever happens next . . . .

[Philosoraptor]

20. nothingshocksmeanymore

[smirkymonkey]

22. Great Post.

K&R

[theboss]

23. Out of curiosity, what do you know about Korea's society?

Not for nothing...but using this incident to demonize America when a foreign national committed the crime is odd.

[Goblinmonger]

24. God damn foreigners

Why even let them in? If we had kept them out, we'd have no problems like McVeigh....oh, wait.

Maybe you should stop being such a xenophobe.

[theboss]

26. I am not being a xenophobe

I could care less where he is from.

I just find it weird to be blaming American culture for the acts of someone from Korea.

[Goblinmonger]

31. Yeah you are

Twice, even.

"I just find it weird to be blaming American culture for the acts of someone from Korea."

Because certainly it couldn't be American culture that is at fault here. It is Korea's fault. How is that NOT xenophobic?

[theboss]

34. I don't think it is anyone's fault

I draw no conclusions or connections from these types of events. I never learn anything from them.

[cosmik debris]

36. That says it all

"I never learn anything from them."

[theboss]

38. I don't

What can you possibly learn from someone killing 30 people without provacation?

What policy can you possibly implement that will absolutely stop this from occurring?

There are things you can do better as a society, I suppose, but ultimately, if someone is so possessed, they can erase a lot of lives in an instant.

[theboss]

39. Double post

[theboss]

40. By the way, you seem to have learned a hell of a lot in the last half hour

You know the guy's name and you have suddenly created this elaborate back story of mental illness and being ignored by a system and god knows what else.

[cosmik debris]

43. You just made that up

I never said anything about the shooter being mentally ill. Get your facts straight before you accuse me.

Again, I am addressing conditions that exist in the USA, NOT the shooter.

[theboss]

46. You are the one who brought mental health into this

It was your first sentence.

Sorry I made that incredible leap of faith you somehow think the poor mental health system is a cause of this. What was I thinking?

[patrice]

52. Right, debris IS a little out of character this a.m., but who cares . . .

The discussion is what it is regardless: Greater than the sum of its parts.

[patrice]

33. So, context is nothing? n/t

[Bluebear]

57. "Someone from Korea" who arrived here as a 7 year old. nt

[cosmik debris]

28. It's all somebody else's fault

Not AMERICA, the greatest country on Earth!:sarcasm:

[theboss]

35. It is no one's fault as far as I can tell

Why does everything have be someone's fault?

And I say that as an attorney.

I will quote that great thinker, me:

Everytime a tragedy like this occurs, different people try to use it as a hook to hang their personal agenda. If we didn't allow immigrants, this never would have happened....if we had stricter gun laws...if everyone was armed....if we didn't have violent video games...if we allowed prayer in school...blah blah blah.

Everyone is probably right and everyone is probably wrong. But I can never draw any connections or conclusions from these events.

[ileus]

72. Agreed! it's not Americas fault....

[FloridaJudy]

42. That this guy is Asian scares me

Look at how O'Reilly took after a Hispanic immigrant who killed two people. Can't you just see the foam dripping from his chops now?

This guy sounds like another deranged, sick crazy with no political agenda. But I fear that a lot of innocent Asians are now going to suffer.

I remember when George Wallace was shot. My first question was what color his would-be assassin was. When told that he was white, the first words out of my mouth were "Thank God!" That was callous of me, no doubt, but the blood bath that would have resulted had the guy been African American would have been horrendous.

[cosmik debris]

25. I know very little about Korean society

But my post did not address the nationality of the shooter. It addressed the conditions of American society where the shooting took place. Do you disagree with my evaluation of American society or are you just looking for a fight?

[theboss]

27. I mostly disagree

But I really don't see what American society has to do with this.

[cosmik debris]

30. I'm sorry you feel that way.

Do you really believe that it is easier to get treatment for mental health issues than to get a gun?

Do you really think that gun owner ship is more stigmatized that mental illness?

Do you really think that our society doesn't teach us that violence is one way to solve problems?

You and I must live in different Americas.

[theboss]

37. You don't know anything about this fellow

How do you know he showed any signs of being mentally ill before this?

I don't know anything about this guy. I learned him name fifteen minutes ago.

I will quote myself again, because I am that great of an writer:

Everytime a tragedy like this occurs, different people try to use it as a hook to hang their personal agenda. If we didn't allow immigrants, this never would have happened....if we had stricter gun laws...if everyone was armed....if we didn't have violent video games...if we allowed prayer in school...blah blah blah.

Everyone is probably right and everyone is probably wrong. But I can never draw any connections or conclusions from these events.

[cosmik debris]

41. I am addressing problems that exist in American society

And you are addressing the situation of the shooter.

I don't understand why you keep changing the subject, but I suspect that you are unwilling to see that American society has some severe problems.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

[theboss]

45. Of course America has severe problems

I work in health care. I spend everyday telling every person I meet how screwed up this system is from top to bottom.

And I live in a state that sent George Allen to the Senate. And almost elected Ollie North.

We got issues.

I just won't use a tragedy I know nothing about as a result of all the ills of America. This to me is just the flipside of Falwell blaming 9/11 on a bunch of queers or something.

[cosmik debris]

51. And speaking of problems,

I ask again:

Do you really believe that it is easier to get treatment for mental health issues than to get a gun?

Do you really think that gun owner ship is more stigmatized that mental illness?

Do you really think that our society doesn't teach us that violence is one way to solve problems?

[theboss]

53. No, no, and not sure

I don't see what any of that has to do with today though.

You are simply using a tragedy to push an agenda.

[cosmik debris]

56. Again you are making shit up

I have promoted no agenda. I have made observations about conditions that exist in America. I did not discuss the shooter. I did not discuss any agenda.

You, on the other hand, seem to be promoting the agenda of preventing discussion of problems that exist in America.

Good luck with that.

[patrice]

29. The Demons come from NOT recognizing the truth about ourselves.

Korea is Korea.

America is America.

Your going to have to be more specific if you intend to say something.

........................

My husband is a second degree black-belt in a very old, conservative Korean school of Tae Kwon Do, called Chung Do Kwan. In addition to the understanding that Real strength comes from the person (not objects), one of their most basic principles is the discipline, humility, and reserve of real true strength. Qualities very sadly lacking in our Gun Culture.

[theboss]

49. I don't disagree

I just don't see what any of this has to do with the shooting.

[patrice]

54. So, you're an absolutist?

All phenomena are discreet, no connections?

You're going to say, "Of course not!" - Okay, so what are the cause-and-effect connections, according to you? Where, and Why, do you draw a line between those connections that you label "cause" and those you label "ir-relevant"? Also, do you know anything about human neurophysiology?

BTW, I think you mischaracterize what people are saying about America. No relativist would say "It's ALL America's fault. America caused this." We are much more interested in what all of the connections are, how those connections can be characterized, and whether it is in fact possible to quantify them with some degree of reliable probability.

[theboss]

55. I don't run a holistic detective agency, if that is what you mean

Sure, there are connections to everything. If I take a job in Texas next month, it is going to affect the lives of people I have never met.

But I think this thread is jumping to a ton of conclusions simply to push an agenda.

[cosmik debris]

58. What conclusions?

And get your facts straight before you accuse me, please. (quote me if you can)

[theboss]

61. You say:

"So this school shooting did not shock me. Nor did the last school shooting. Nor will the next school shooting shock me. I will be shocked if our society says it has had enough and changes its values and rules. But until that happens, I will not be shocked."

I can only conclude from that statement that we need to change our values.

In your first two sentences, you talk about poor access to mental health services and easy access to guns.

I can only logically conclude that you think if we have better access to mental health services and less access to guns, these types of things will not happen as often.

Am I mistaken?

[cosmik debris]

62. You are reaching conclusions

But your accusation said I was jumping to conclusions. You seem to be flustered by your own exaggerations. You are not me, and I am not you.

[theboss]

64. Then what in the blue hell is the point of this thread?

Was that first post just a poem?

[cosmik debris]

66. I am addressing problems that exist in American society

I've said that two or three times, but you only want to talk about the shooter, Korea, and my hidden agenda.

[patrice]

67. Truth is a Verb. n/t

[cosmik debris]

70. Transitive it seems. n/t

[patrice]

76. Yep. n/t

[patrice]

BTW, that makes it less fungible than "Truthiness". n/t

[patrice]

81. BTW, that makes it less fungible than "Truthiness". n/t

[theboss]

73. What in gods name does that mean?

To truth?

[patrice]

78. Actually, more like . . . Truthing (that would make it a verbal).

A gerund, if I remember correctly.

Truthing: Something I learned from studying Science, but not limited by that.

Maybe you are having some trouble with it because it requires some humility, something that would, with all due respect, be foreign to an, ahmmm, "boss".

[patrice]

80. "Our" agenda, please? And thank you. n/t

[patrice]

65. Yes, you are mistaken. If debris is a rational empiricist,

(which, BTW, is the basis of what we refer to as "knowledge"), debris is saying "if we have better access t mental health services and less access to guns, there is an n probability that these types of incidents will decrease." And if we are as we claim to be, "a Culture of Life", any degree of probability that even one person will be spared this experience justifies what we spend on mental health services and creating less access to guns.

I'm still waiting to hear what you think "our" agenda is.

[patrice]

60. And that agenda is?

BTW, haven't you heard? There are no "conclusions", only results that lead us on to . . .

[Lone_Star_Dem]

71. I heard he moved here when he was eight years old

I'm not sure which society influenced him more, but if this is true he's been in American for the vast majority of his life. Not that this really means anything to me, I just thought if this is going to be an angle that people wish to explore they should consider how long he's lived here while they're exploring it.

[theboss]

74. I don't disagree

I just think we are a little early in the discussion to be placing blame on any society. (Actually, I hate placing blame on "socities" in general).

[cosmik debris]

77. I didn't want to make this personal

I just wanted to address the conditions that exist and discuss them. That must offend "theboss", and I am sorry, but those conditions do exist. And there is nothing wrong with discussing them.

[necklace]

87. This incident is a product of American culture; not a foreign import!!!

It is quite offensive to all Koreans and Korean-Americans out there that this is might somehow be related to the values of the Korean society and culture.

Remember this, school massacres have mostly been in the U.S., the Dunblane and the Beslan being the exception. And Beslan was a political statement being made, but all the others were based on some sort of pathological problem that is epidemic in the American psyche and culture.

The questions you should be asking are as follows:

1) What are the reasons for this man to commit such a horror?

2) Why is it that this country continues to produce such massacres?

3) How can we, as a society and members of a community, prevent such incidents from happening again?

So be very careful about pointing the blame to another country's culture, for that begins to border on racism/nationalism. This gunman came to America when he was 7 years old. He graduated a Virginia high school, and was an English lit major. For all intensive purposes, he was an American and he was a product of the American culture!

[greyghost]

88. The glimmer twins...

I was amazed to hear that the VT shooter, Cho Seung-Hui was in the same high school class as the individual who shot and killed two police officers in Fairfax County VA last year, Michael Kennedy. What if Dylan Kleibold and Eric Harris never met?

They attended Westfields High School in Centreville VA.
Their neighborhood is definitely divided between the haves and have nots. It's made up of working class people trying to maintain middle class status, and the upper, upper class.

Not really hard to see their resentment of "rich kids."

[necklace]

89. Thanks for the added insight! nt

[terip64]

32. I am shocked, even though I shouldn't be, by the way it is being handled.

I can't imagine being a parent and watching the news conference this morning. They took NO questions and the man left at the mike was spelling names for the reporters as if anybody cares if they get a spelling wrong right now.

We should understand that we can not prevent people from going crazy but there should be an efficient plan that communicates to students that they need to get to safety. Something should be in place on every campus.

[gravity]

44. It's always obvious in hindsight

The first shooting wasn't a shocker, but 33 people killed is still unbelievable to me. I have many friends that go to school at VT, and I would not of thought that this type of thing would ever happen to them. It still seems unreal to me.

[Arugula Latte]

47. I remember when that first mass mowdown happened at McDonalds.

Maybe it was the late 80s or so? ... Anyway, that shocked me. And then it happened again...And again...And again...

Now, these things are horrific and sickening and make me feel ashamed to my core. But I'm no longer surprised by them.

[coalition_unwilling]

79. Charles Whitman at the U. of Texas in Austin 1966 was the first, I believe.

But there may be antecedents that pre-date Whitman's rampage from the UT-Austin clock tower.

[Arugula Latte]

82. I guess the McDonalds one was the first one I recall...

I was born in '66, so obviously don't remember the Austin guntower one. But after that one, there didn't seem to be another one like that for a long time ... until the late 80 or early 90s, and then it started happening not infrequently.

[coalition_unwilling]

84. I was born in '59, so I was only 7 when it happened. But I have some

early childhood memories of it, rather vague now. Somehow, in my child's mind, I got it confused with a children's book I was reading about Walt Whitman at the time (if memory serves). The two names became conflated in my mind and, even to this day, when I hear "Whitman" my mind bounces between Walt and Charles. (The tricks a child's mind can play, I guess.)

[roamer65]

50. I wasn't shocked either.

Saddened for the victims and their families, as I am everytime I hear that people are needlessly killed anywhere in the world.

[renie408]

63. YES! Thank you...We need to change more than just gun laws

We need to change how we feel about each other. Instead of looking at everybody like they are the enemy, we need to look at EVERYBODY like they are members of our team.

There is a large movement in spirituality that views each of us as part of a whole, instead of separate, isolated beings. THAT is what we need...to feel our connectedness, not our separateness.

[patrice]

75. Thank you! All of the "theorizing" adds to one simple concrete act.

Reach out to **EVERYONE** (not just your selected few). Reach out however you can and DON'T discount the effect of even in the smallest actions possible. Look people in the face. Smile. Say "Please" and "Thank You." Be kind. Consider how people feel when you interact with them.

There are millions of things we can do to change this and those actions are easily available to each one of us every second of our lives.

[Gregorian]

83. America is a violent nation. Is there an question?

We all know it. But we pretend it's not true.


I would like to say something that seems like it doesn't fit in this discussion. But it is part of the contribution to our violence. Driving cars. From the violence it inflicts on the planet, and people, it is more violent than people realize.

I'm running out of steam, folks. Things are getting worse, not better.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

85. "It starts when you're always afraid."

MKJ

edited to reflect correct lyrics.

[ellisonz]

86. I know that we have institutions that are in a state of malaise and denial.

[marions ghost]

90. right to the point

n/t