30+ innocents were killed at VA Tech. 90+ innocents are killed in Iraq everyday and no one blinks/nt

[still_one]

[MemphisTiger]

1. apples and oranges

[still_one]

9. Is that the reason no one cares that 90+ people are killed per day in Iraq?

[MemphisTiger]

20. There is a war going on in Iraq, not Blacksburg, VA

Apples and oranges

[still_one]

26. First of all let me state very clearly what happened at VA Tech is an tradgedy

and an outrage.

You are correct, Iraq is a civil war, while the other is a disturbed student who was able to get his hands on weapons he should not have been able to

[Mike Daniels]

24. People expect casualties in a war even if it's one as misguided as Iraq

People do not ever expect that 30+ kids will lose their lives in one day on campus as the result of a spree shooter.

As the other poster said, it's apples and oranges and I don't understand why people are so tunnel visioned as to not understand why Tech is over-riding news on Iraq for the time being.

[still_one]

28. Appreciate the explanation. I was not trying to minimize what happened at VA Tech

but I do see now how it could be taken that way. Pretty dense on my part

[onenote]

36. "no one cares"?

Sorry. Lots of people care.

[still_one]

54. I hope you are right.

In five years from now if we are still in Iraq, in my view it will mean that not enough people care

[Connonym]

60. apples and oranges but why is it offensive?

perhaps I'm missing a sensitivity chip but I don't understand why the comparison in and of itself is offensive to post on a bulletin board. It's not something that you would say to those who are directly affected but those of us who are indirectly affected, on a public forum I don't think it's inappropriate to have a discussion about it.

What I take away from this comparison -- the war in some ways doesn't seem real because it's not in our face. We hear about soldiers dying and about civilians dying but it's not really personal unless it's someone you know. But now that we have seen something tragic close to home it allows empathy that hey, I bet the Iraqi parents and American soldiers' parents feel the same kind of grief, the same kind of outrage and fear. The same sickening dread in the pit of their guts.

We all take away something different from a tragedy. Tragedy is personal. If I look at the distress we (the indirectly affected Americans) feel and that personal distress makes me have a newfound respect for the suffering of others that is wrong? The death of innocents is to be grieved here or there and sometimes it takes something awful happening to you to realize how awful it is for someone else. It gives you a perspective that you didn't have before. It puts a face on something that before was faceless and intangible. It's a lesson in humanity, a realization of the frailty of ALL humanity and not an attempt to disrespect the dead. Is this a lesson in humanity we need to wave in the faces of those grieving? Hell no! But for the rest of us...empathy is empathy.

Whether or not we agree, we should be able to have an honest discussion about it in a public forum.

[MemphisTiger]

72. A discussion about it is fine but to compare VT to

Iraq is not even close, that was my point. To be clear, I was not offended by the post, just called it a poor analogy.

[The Stranger]

86. Oh bullshit.

"apples and oranges" has to be the most pathetic cop-out of a weak-minded post ever seen here.

In that, I suppose, you have achieved something.

[malta blue]

2. I blink. I think of them every morning.

Please, do not do this.

[Colobo]

3. Useless thread. Pure garbage.

[still_one]

11. why is that? Is it because most people do not give the deaths in Iraq a second thought?

What happens in Iraq is like 3 VA Techs happening everyday here

[hlthe2b]

17. Your insensitivity towards those VT families experiencing loss

some of which are DU posters (check this morning's posts)is what is offensive. Iraq is never out of the mind, concern, and overt actions intended to change policy, for most DUers.

Our concern for VT today does not diminish that concern nor efforts towards Iraq. But your efforts to deflect our concern for VT, diminishes the loss for those impacted, while doing nothing to honor those facing loss in Iraq.

[still_one]

22. My intention was not meant to distract from the VA Tech tradgedy at all

but I appreciate you explaining to me why it is considered offensive

[kwassa]

35. That is precisely what you are doing, however.

Why else would you start this thread?

It is quite offensive.

[hlthe2b]

92. I'm glad you seem to understand....

You are not alone in not understanding why-- at such an incredibly raw, emotional time-- yours and similar posts strike such a nerve. But, you are among the few to ask or seek to understand why....

[joshcryer]

91. Like I was saying when these distasteful threads popped up yesterday...

...the fact remains that while Iraq does indeed have dozens of deaths a day, there are places in the world that are several magnitudes more deadly. Yet no one gives a shit about those people. People dying from flu, malaria, the common fucking cold. People were going in to threads yesterday pointing out Iraq death tolls but not one of them would go into Iraq death threads (of which there are many, civilian and military a like) and claim that "no one blinks an eye to the deaths caused by malnutrition or lack of clean water every year."

Yet here we are, same argument as yesterday, same irrational point of view. Merely to score points in debate. It's sickening.

[The Stranger]

87. Strike a nerve, eh?

Uh-huh.

[hlthe2b]

4. So VERY Not true and offensive...

:shrug:

[still_one]

12. Please tell me why it is offensive?

[Skidmore]

5. If I hear this saw one more time, I'm gonna puke.

ALL violent deaths of this nature, whether by a lone gunman or a suicide bomber or because of war in general are equally horrific. Let us not discount any one of them.

[saltpoint]

6. If it rains next Tuesday, Rita and Joe might get more peanut butter.

The two aren't related. The VT killings are not related in any substantial way to U.S. foreign policy.

And it isn't fair to say no one blinks when deaths occur in Baghdad or Mosul. Just because Bush doesn't acknowledge the pain of people living and dying there doesn't mean it doesn't happen or that others don't feel it, acknowledge it, or try to bring it to a halt.

[acmavm]

7. I'll tell you the same thing I told someone else last night, you need

to be very ashamed of yourself. Don't speak for anybody else because you DON'T KNOW what they think, how they feel. And to disparage people's grief is disgusting.

[still_one]

14. How dare you say I WAS DISPARAGING ANYONES DEATH

Where in my post did I say that what happened at VA Tech was not awful?

[AngryOldDem]

41. You are, in a way, saying, "So what? This is everyday stuff in Baghdad."

I think that's an accurate reading of your post, and I'd like to also say that I am getting sick of these types of threads. They serve absolutely no purpose and offend a great many.

No violent death -- hell, no death in any fashion -- should ever be minimized, or dismissed, or discounted. That's what posts like yours (and many others) do by making such comparisons between Blacksburg and Baghdad, intended or not.

[Dawgs]

51. Bullshit.

That's a very inaccurate reading of the OP.

[still_one]

56. not what I said, not what I meant, but I am more convienced that we will be in Iraq for a long time

[acmavm]

53. You most certainly are. You're acting like one person's death

is worse than another's.

Ever since yesterday people have been playing this grief game. Pitching a fit and deciding that it's wrong to be so upset over yesterday and making the smug and stupid comparison to Iraq and clairvoyantly stating that no one feels any grief or guilt over the deaths there.

How dare I??? How dare you tell people what they feel and who they feel it about.

[shaniqua6392]

8. My heart breaks a little every day.

Every time I think of the Iraqi people, our troops, and all of the families affected by this disaster of a war. Sometimes I don't think I can bear the pain. There are many of us who feel this way. You just think that no one cares, but it is just that our voices are not heard. We are here.

[slj0101]

10. Do we need yet another thread devoted to this tired talking point?

Like above posters said, it's apples and oranges.

[Scout]

13. you have no idea what you are talking about. n/t

[still_one]

18. The deaths of those who have died in Iraq are usually on the back page

Of course what happened at VA Tech is awful and a tradgedy, and if access to weapons, especially those with multiple clips was controlled, perhaps it would be a less insane country.

[MemphisTiger]

23. That is not the answer

you can get those weapons on the street with no registration or restrictions. Criminals will always find a way around the system.

[still_one]

30. Perhaps, but how come in Japan or most of Europe these kind of incidents do not happen?

You are correct that criminals will always find a way around the system

[MemphisTiger]

37. Japan and Europe have nothing to do with this incident

Obviously you are pro gun control. Make your case and I will respond to reasonable point but comparing VT shootings to Iraq is just stupid.

[still_one]

50. Actually I am not as pro gun control as you think

However, I do believe that there should be a waiting period to check out the background of someone buying a weapon, registration of weapons, and a limit on how many rounds a weapon can fire. The only justification for multiple round clips is to kill people.

[MemphisTiger]

71. A wheel loader holds six, how many would you restrict

a magazine handgun to? What would prevent you from just buying 30 or so magazines?

[still_one]

76. You are right, that is not the problem,

Let me approach from a different way. I think before a person should be allowed to buy a weapon, and should be tested whether the person is proficient in its use and saftey. This licensing procedure should also involve a background check.

What responsibility should the gun owner have if his weapon gets into the hands of a child or stolen?

Will tougher laws against people who use guns in crimes help, or will tougher laws withon gun control help

Sure, this won't stop criminals from getting weapons, but aren't most of the deaths from guns due to carelessness?

My position on gun control is that people who have guns should be licensed and tested before they can have them.

Handguns, and automatic weapons have one basic purpose, excluding collectors, and that is to kill people. Is there any other purpose for those?

[MemphisTiger]

80. A gun is not always fire when it is pulled

a pulled weapon can be an effective deterrent to a criminal and hold them until the police arrive. Please don't think that all who own guns are kill happy crazies, I have never had to fire mine at anything other than a target and hope I never have to.

I don't agree with testing someone just because who makes up the test? What is their agenda?

As far as children and guns that's a tough call, with a young one myself I keep mine in my closet very high, he can't reach it or get to it and the clip is removed and he's too young to know how to insert and arm it. As he get's older I'll probably lock it up and get a 12 gauge for home protection just because it's very effective and he can't shoot himself with it even though it's harder to get through the hallways but it makes a hell of a racker when you pump it... criminals know what that sound it and know that the aim doesn't have to be that true to be hit, but if you DO pull one you had better be ready to actually fire if you have to because you've just escalated the situation and if he has one you're dead. I pray I'll never be in that situation but it ain't gonna be me or my family.

[still_one]

82. I have very mixed emotions on this, but I am NOT for banning guns

In order to drive a car we are required to take a test? Every so often you hear stories of some idiot shooting a gun in the air during fourth of July not realizing the consequences

Virginia laws are the most lax with guns. Someone posted this link on DU, http://crime.about.com/library/blgunquiz_wv.htm

I am not an idiot, I realize if someone wants to do damage bad enough they are going to get whatever they need to do it.

I just think that a reasonible certification process should be done. Let the NRA make up the test. I have no doubt the test they would make up would be far more practical and useful than someone who was anti-gun

Anyway, I appreciate your point of view, definitely gives me something to think about

[MemphisTiger]

88. Actually to carry a handgun you must take a test

perhaps there could be a middle ground on your idea, something similar to a hunter safety course for those that hunt.

[kwassa]

40. There was a Scots mass murderer who killed a group of schoolgirls

[still_one]

57. Are there more incidents like that here, or elsewhere?

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

15. Man Bites Dog...

The fact that 90 people die every day in Iraq means that, by the standard definition of what is news (Dog Bites Man Isn't News; Man Bites Dog Is News), those everyday events are not newsworthy. The fact is that thirty people aren't massacred everyday in the United States. So what happened at Virginia Tech is definitely newsworthy.

Although it makes the statements of John McCain regarding safety in Iraq look pretty ridiculous.

[Missy M]

16. I read posts everyday regarding people in Iraq being killed...

and how horrible it is. 30+ innocents being killed at VA Tech is equally horrible.

[still_one]

19. I agree, and I also believe most at DU agree, but does the public?

I know they are two different events, and I am not trying to take away the tradgedy of one for another

[NewJeffCT]

21. We've been shielded from seeing Iraqi deaths

And, even from seeing the returning caskets of our dead soldiers. It's been effectively sanitized for us.

It's not right, but when something similar happens in our own backyard where we can get intense media saturation, it makes a huge difference.

[still_one]

64. I think you are right. We are extremely santized from Iraq. That didn't happen during Nam

We saw it on the TV, up close and personal

[leftchick]

25. Juan Cole and I share your outrage

http://www.juancole.com/labels/Iraq%20War.html


I keep hearing from US politicians and the US mass media that the "situation is improving" in Iraq. The profound sorrow and alarm produced in the American public by the horrific shootings at Virginia Tech should give us a baseline for what the Iraqis are actually living through. They have two Virginia Tech-style attacks every single day. Virginia Tech will be gone from the headlines and the air waves by next week this time in the US, though the families of the victims will grieve for a lifetime. But next Tuesday I will come out here and report to you that 64 Iraqis have been killed in political violence. And those will mainly be the ones killed by bombs and mortars. They are only 13% of the total; most Iraqis killed violently, perhaps 500 a day throughout the country if you count criminal and tribal violence, are just shot down. Shot down, like the college students and professors at Blacksburg. We Americans can so easily, with a shudder, imagine the college student trying to barricade himself behind a door against the armed madman without. But can we put ourselves in the place of Iraqi students?

I wrote on February 26,

' A suicide bomber with a bomb belt got into the lobby of the School of Administration and Economy of Mustansiriya University in Baghdad and managed to set it off despite being spotted at the last minute by university security guards. The blast killed 41 and wounded a similar number according to late reports, with body parts everywhere and big pools of blood in the foyer as students were shredded by the high explosives. '

[still_one]

31. I was not trying to minimize the tradgedy at VA Tech, but realize that the same shock

goes on to those in Iraq everyday

[leftchick]

34. many times a day

I am afraid Americans do not view Iraqis as human beings, just numbers if and when they ever hear of the toll in Iraq.

[raccoon]

49. Exactly. Many Americans don't give a flying toot how many Iraqis

are killed. They're a different race, a different religion, and they're in another hemisphere. And it doesn't affect the Americans who think this way. :puke:

[kwassa]

42. You are trying to minimize the tragedy. So are others here.

[still_one]

65. No I am not. I am looking at the deaths of someones children in two different places

halfway accross the world

[kwassa]

67. WHY?

What is your point?

[still_one]

73. What happened yesterday, is like 3 of those tradgedies happening everyday in Iraq /nt

What do you think can be done to prevent what happened yesterday in Virginia?

I know what can be done to prevent what is happening in Iraq

[kwassa]

83. There is no relationship and no similarity between VT and Iraq

None. Zero. Zip. Nada.

[Marrah_G]

27. Mods can you please stop these threads?

This is just so offensive. People here are not allowed to mourn or feel anything during this tragedy without some "insensitive poster" deciding to insult them for not using every waking moment of their lives to mourn for the people in Iraq.

These threads are incredibly callous and are only meant to cause more anguish.

[still_one]

32. What you do is you select the Alert to notify the MOD, not call someone an "asshat"

This thread was NOT intended to minimize what happened at VA Tech, and no where in the post does it imply that

[saltpoint]

39. still_one, do you not see that it's the wording of your post that's the

source of the problem?

Can you change it? There's still time, isn't there?

something like:

"The violence against innocents is despairing, no matter the location."

--and then discuss the local tragedy at VT and the general violence Bush has visited upon Iraqis -- all of them losses of human beings, all of them tragedies.

Sometning like that.

The "blink" part is a tripswitch and sounds accusatory.

[still_one]

58. It won't let me, appreciate the suggestion /nt

[leftchick]

38. BS

and you really should edit out your personal attack.

[MrSlayer]

29. Well let's be honest. Most people in the U.S. don't really care about the dead Iraqis.

Nor do they really care about the soldiers dying or the kids killed in the massacre yesterday or about anything that doesn't effect them directly. As long as most of us are doing ok and are able to go to whatever jones we prefer after work then the world can do it's own spinning. Sure you feel bad about these things and deplore the actions that led to them and all but at the end of the day most people are more concerned about their own problems than they are about people being killed thousands of miles away. I'm not saying everyone of course, many people on this site and in society at large see things in a much different light but average Joe Q. Public doesn't give a fuck.

[still_one]

33. That is what my point was, NOT TO MINIMIZE the tradgedy at VA Tech

I am amazed that so many took it as such

Unfortunately, I also suspect there will be more VA Techs, and we will be in Iraq for years to come

[MemphisTiger]

43. Sure that was your poing

It sounds like you are flamebaiting and trying to bail out with that statement.

[still_one]

52. No way. Let me make it clear

In Iraq RIGHT now there are parents, grandparents, wives, husbands, and children that have been killed, and those families lives are affected permanently, just as those who were victims of the tradgedy yesterday

[Connonym]

75. I understood your point

and I understand the emotional/mental connection between the two. It may be apples and oranges but there's a connotative relationship. I think my sadness about VT made me think that "this is what the Iraqis must feel" and I have a different perspective on their sorrow as a result.

Another way to view it -- when my friend's dad died I didn't understand why she talked about him all the time when she had not before. Then my dad died and all of a sudden I realized what she was going through in a way I hadn't before. That doesn't mean that I didn't care about her dad before but I didn't understand how profound her feeling was. I don't feel I disrespected my dad by that realization. I don't feel I'm disrespecting the memory of VT students when I say that my reaction to their death made me more empathetic toward people in Iraq who must feel the same sense of loss every day. One doesn't take away from the other.

[still_one]

77. Your analogy really hits home

[kwassa]

44. Your OP title minimizes the VA Tech tragedy by numerical comparison

Get a clue.

[still_one]

63. Actually what I was saying was that it would amount to 3 tradgedies a day here

That is what is happening in Iraq

[AngryOldDem]

46. Then how come so many people misunderstood it?

I think most are not that myopic in their worldview that they cannot feel sadness and outrage toward the violence in Virginia AND in Iraq. While I'm sure that wasn't your intent, your phrasing did minimize what happened Monday, and by extension, minimized the loss of life at Va Tech.

This "comparison" is just one more talking point in all of this that needs to go away.

[still_one]

48. It really wasn't my intent, but obviously that isn't what happened

Unfortunately I fear there will be more VA Techs, and we will be in Iraq for years to come

[William769]

45. What a crock of shit!

Appearently, you don't read D|U like you think you do.

[ScreamingMeemie]

47. I think every one blinks...at it all.

I have enough empathy, enough compassion to attempt (and always fail) to make sense of either or any.

[Fran Kubelik]

70. Exactly, Mrs Grumpy.

I just made the same point downthread. Are we not allowed to feel compassion for anyone now because of the scale of the suffering in Iraq?

[tyedyeto]

55. Perhaps one reason is...

that many here in this DU community know someone who is attending, used to attend or plans to attend Virginia Tech. We have seen many posts stating this since yesterday morning. In some way, this makes it more personal for all of us.

How many Iraqis does this community know personally? How many Iraqis post on DU? I would venture to say not many.

So sorry you have been getting flamed by the members here.

[still_one]

59. Appreciate the insight /nt

[GliderGuider]

61. There is one way we can bring good out of this awful calamity

In the last day many, many people have made the uncomfortable observation that we grieve more for those who are close to us than for those farther away who are undergoing even worse trauma day after day. The fact that this is being pointed out is a good thing, because it prompts us to contemplate more deeply our response to suffering and our commitment to its eradication.

As a result of this horrifying shock hitting so close to home and the comparisons it has generated, many people will have the opportunity to feel a macabre kinship with the trapped, helpless innocents in Baghdad. If any good can come from this tragedy, let it be that more and more people in America will shake off the bonds of apathy, indifference and habituation, will rise up in fury and outrage and scream "Stop the murder! Stop this horrible war on the helpless and innocent!" Let that be the memorial to these murdered students: that we are moved to save some equally innocent Iraqi students from their own gruesome fate.

[still_one]

62. That is a very good point /nt

[saltpoint]

66. still_one, I'm thinking that the president's visit today might actually

make things worse for the friends and families of the victims -- although I'm running off-topic here --

When Bush lands at the nearest airport -- possibly Roanoke? -- not sure -- there is going to be such heightened security on campus over in Blacksburg that the entire day will seem unbearably tense.

Way too much tension and hullabaloo on a day when calm and comfort ought to prevail.

I think Bush is making a huge mistake on this one just for a cheap photo op.

[still_one]

69. You might be right. In addition, the press will also intrude on these people's tradgedy

which cannot help things

When he was at New Orleans after Katrina, or almost any other photo op, he sure didn't help the situation

Maybe if he keeps his mouth shut it may help

[saltpoint]

74. Good point. That long delay down in New Orleans while so many

suffered.

Where was Bush? Down in Crawford clearing brush. Very embarrassing. Other nations' citizens were wondering why our president refused rescue to our citizens along the Gulf Coast.

I'd sure like to hear his answer to that, too.

The counselors and so forth at Virginia Tech will likely have an easier go of it if all those security people aren't in their way.

But no one at the White House phones me for my input!

[Fran Kubelik]

68. You are preaching to the wrong people

We are all blinking. Did I miss the DU forum of people who support killing people in Iraq?

[still_one]

78. I wasn't trying to preach, but empathize with both situations

Most people, whether at DU or elsewhere support the killing in Iraq, it is just that Iraq has been going on for more than three years, and we are immune from the slaughter over there, and then something like this occurs...

[Fran Kubelik]

79. I think I understand.

It is a defense mechanism. There is so much suffering, so much pain, that if we allowed ourselves to feel it with every newscast about the latest casualty figures, about the most recent car bomb that exploded killing 30 people...we would become - or at least I would become - a quivering mass of hysterical sadness.

And I will grant you this...and I hate this, but it is human nature...when it is people just like us we feel it more.

[still_one]

81. The whole thing is just sad

[The Stranger]

84. AMEN, BROTHER (OR SISTER)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even the progressives don't want to face something like that. But you have the courage to show it to them anyway. Good for you.

Keep keepin' on.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

85. People don't give a shit about Iraqis.

That's why they get upset when you compare them to Americans. They think it's a slur on their character.

Closer to 500 per day, btw.

[ends_dont_justify]

89. Funny....the media goes by american deaths

So are you saying that americans are only valuable if they die in a war you disrespect? That's ludicrous. If 90 people died in iraq, 120 people died yesterday....here and in iraq. If you had a heart in that chest of your's, you'd register every death...none are more important than another, every doctor and healer knows that...they treat all equally. Yet the sasquatches of politics will just grunt around about who died where...never changes.

If the people of iraq have amounted to no more than a statistic, we have failed as democrats to uphold democratic values. Enough said.

[joshcryer]

90. Yet within minutes of the death toll was reported there were dozens of posts like this here.

I think you have your view of the world skewed highly.