Why revealing private abortion info is important to YOU, even if you're a guy or anti-choice.

[Nikki Stone1]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6735054&mesg_id=6735054

Basically, the Oklahoma legislature has mandated the publication on line of specific private medical information. Yes, this time it is abortion, which some people have issues with as a procedure. But this law sets a precedent for releasing detailed demographic information about each individual patient: that is, it sets a precedent for an invasion of individual privacy and that of a specific group of patients. This invasion of privacy is justified NOT on a public health need basis (you can't "catch" an abortion) but on a MORAL basis.

If this law is allowed to stand, future invasions of health privacy are givens. HIV, for example, can be spread and is considered, by the religious right, a disease related to MORAL concerns. What is to prevent detailed information about carriers of HIV to be placed on line? Will this kind of information mining and posting scare HIV carriers away from diagnosis and treatment (if necessary).

How about STDs? These are also considered MORAL issues by some. Would you like information similar to the abortion questions below to be collected on you when you get treatment for an STD?

Or how about a vasectomy? Some religious groups consider a vasectomy immoral on the grounds that you are destroying your ability to sire future children and that you are intending to have sex for only (gasp!) your own pleasure and not for procreation. Do you really want detailed information posted on line about your vasectomy, even if your name is not included? Would you feel your privacy was invaded if you were asked about your marital status, the number of children you already had, your sexual orientation, your race, your country of residence, all to be posted on the internet ? Think about it.


Here were the abortion questions:

1. Date of abortion
2. County in which abortion performed
3. Age of mother
4. Marital status of mother
(married, divorced, separated, widowed, or never married)
5. Race of mother
6. Years of education of mother
(specify highest year completed)
7. State or foreign country of residence of mother
8. Total number of previous pregnancies of the mother
Live Births
Miscarriages
Induced Abortions


Any procedure or disease that the majority of a particular legislature regards as "immoral" can be tracked and posted in this way. No one should want this kind of selective interference for reasons related to the specific dogma of a specific religious group.

[BuelahWitch]

1. And birth control pills, even if you use them for reasons other than

Like regulating menstrual cycles. My docs put me on hormones when I was in my early teens for that reason, and no, I wasn't having sex yet.

[Nikki Stone1]

3. Good point!

This gets scarier and scarier.

[Crunchy Frog]

60. The more extreme ones consider the pill to be tantamount to abortion.

[Nikki Stone1]

2. I'm glad some people get it.

If there is a group fighting this, we ALL need to donate money to it.

[Hekate]

29. The usual suspects, including my favorite Planned Parenthood Federation of America

Home
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/

Key Issues
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/key-issues/index.htm

Protecting Abortion Access
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/key-issues/protecting-abortion-access-25933.htm

Ensuring Health Care Access
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/key-issues/ensuring-health-care-access-25937.htm

Opposing Attacks on Women's Health
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/key-issues/opposing-attacks-womens-health-25940.htm

Among others:

NARAL Pro-Choice America
http://www.naral.org/
http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/

[Nikki Stone1]

41. Thank you. We need to donate to those groups.

:kick:

[Zoeisright]

61. Me too. I can't believe any progressive would be for this.

But some are, which is mind-blowing. Talk about invasion of privacy and intimidation!

[yodoobo]

4. Seems to be in direct conflict with HIPAA

HIPAA is federal law and this state law.

Any Newspaper that printed the names of abortion (or any other procedure) patients would be fined out the wazoo.

[boppers]

39. HIPAA protects private identities.

This is aggregate data, no name, social security number, or anything else linking it to a specific individual.

[niyad]

48. read all THIRTY-SEVEN of the questions and come back to us.

[sui generis]

72. it does do that BUT

of the more than 4000 cases submitted as violations of HIPAA in the past 5 years, only four have ever gone to court and those have all found in favor of the defendant, namely not the individual.

[Rabrrrrrr]

5. THAT is the definition of IMMORAL.

And besides, who fucking cares?

I realize they aren't printing names, but still -it's fucking immoral.

And seriously - what does the woman's marital status have to do with it, other than to further villainize and marginalize the unmarried?

Why don't we also report the number of laproscopy (however it's spelled) operations.

Or every time a Republican goes in to have more of their brain removed, or goes in for treatment for a sexually transmitted disease, with details about how they caught it.

Fucking hell.

[get the red out]

6. I was thinking along these lines this morning

If this flys, then it is conceivable that we could slide down such a slippery slope that people could suddenly be getting death threats from religious organizations for the use of birth control. The righties are more and more vocally against that. And STDs, HIV; all that could make someone a target of being threatened or just having prayer vigils in front of their homes to run them out of town. Or they could simply loose their jobs, in so many red states you can be legally fired for no reason at all, so a guy could come into work and get the ax because the Baptist boss figured out online that his wife had had an abortion, or maybe just an IUD or a birth control prescription. And how are his kids being treated at school at that point? Bullying for religious reasons is pretty much acceptable in the south. It's what those heathen kids deserve isn't it?

No, this won't happen right away, nor in all states. But in red states the danger is real, and the whole country may be in danger if there is another Republican President any time soon.

Just another reason I am thankful for McCain/Palin not being successful. Frightening.

[Nikki Stone1]

7. I agree. Any disease considered tangentially related to a "moral" issue could be posted

Defined in whatever way a religious nutcase defined it.

[Hekate]

31. Absolutely. The Talibornagains are obsessed with other people's sex lives...

... and they have a broad definition of what that includes -- everything from birth control pills to abortions to gayness to sex toys to STDs and AIDS.

They are crotch-sniffers of the first order. Ugh. Oh wait, did I just say that? Ick. Yes I did and I meant it.

Hekate

[Nikki Stone1]

8. Only 4 recs? Goddamn! The Obama sand sculpture had more recs in its first minute than this does

This is an issue that will actually affect you, people.

[left coaster]

11. That's par for DU..

[petronius]

43. If it makes you feel any better, I've never recced or unrecced a thread ever, but I did

read this one and skipped right over the sandcastle one. I suspect there are far more posters like me than there are posters worried about the rec thing...

:shrug:

[bigwillq]

69. The fact that this thread has 1,300+ views

is much more important than how many recs it gets.

[stevedeshazer]

9. You're right, of course.

This is the modern equivalent of the whipping post.

[Nikki Stone1]

12. American Christian sharia

That's where this leads.

[get the red out]

15. Nothing less

People look at me like I am NUTS when I say that.

[Nikki Stone1]

19. You're not nuts. You are reading the right map.

There are certain signs that lead to certain things. This is why we need to get active and demand our government BE a government.

[madfloridian]

10. We are on a slippery slope with Democrats failing to stand up for women.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/3397

We are still giving in on women's issues to win elections.

[peacebird]

13. the clinic I went to in the late 70's asked many of the same questions on their form

plus your name, SSN, and address.

But they didn't check ID cards. I figured it was absolutely none of their business, so I made up a name, address, DOB, SSN, and everything else on their form.

My current internist had a question about abortion on the form about previous illnesses etc, and a question about rape. I told him those were questions I found offensive - and never answered them.

[Hekate]

32. Your internist has legitimate reasons for asking these intimate questions, unlike Oklahoma...

First, for determining the risk of having a baby impacted by Rh-factor, knowing the true number of the mother's pregnancies is vital. Miscarriages and abortions, no matter how early, count against subsequent pregnancies if your blood type is Rh-negative.

Second -- and as a fibromyalgic and sex-abuse survivor I was shocked to learn this -- trauma, including sexual trauma like rape and sex abuse as a child -- is strongly correlated with later conditions like fibromyalgia. Trauma changes the brain, which runs your body, which is not to say it's a so-called psychosomatic illness.

There are at least some researchers who believe that a physical is not complete unless the patient (especially female) is asked this question. In the past I would have found being asked about this part of my history to be as offensive as you did, but since learning about this research I have modified my beliefs. My internist has never asked this of me, and at this juncture I don't think he will. However a neurologist I saw about my sleep apnea did -- he is younger and his research is into a whole cluster of apparently interrelated Dysregulation Spectrum Syndromes.

I'm not discounting your feelings about intrusive questions, so this is just FYI.

Hekate

[peacebird]

36. thank you. I did not know that. My internist is younger and very good

He understands that I prefer older drugs (if any) and is quite good about offering me alternatives (such as a neti pot for sinus) instead of drugs since I prefer to stay away from antibiotics etc if I can.

I am post-menopausal so the first issue is not a concern, but I was totally unaware of any connection until you mentioned it.
Thank you for enlightening me!

:hug:

[jacko_be]

14. A woman is the boss of her one body, and her own affairs, her choice

[enlightenment]

16. Does anyone think that the reporting section of this Act is

a red herring, created to divert attention from a one-sentence addition earlier in the legislation?

The reporting standard is so completely over the top - and probably (I'm not a lawyer) a violation of HIPAA in a dozen places - that I can't see it not being overturned in the courts.

But that doesn't mean they will overturn the entire Act; they can strike down that portion, leaving this:

4. “Unborn child” means the unborn offspring of human beings from the moment of conception, through pregnancy, and until live birth including the human conceptus, zygote, morula, blastocyst, embryo and fetus;

Isn't that the same thing they're trying to do in Florida? Have the definition changed to identify an undifferentiated cluster of cells as a human being?

And the part that makes me think they're trying to slide that nasty bit through is this, buried at the end of the Act:

If any one or more provision, section, subsection, sentence, clause, phrase or word of this act or the application thereof to any person or circumstance is found to be unconstitutional, the same is declared to be servable and the balance of this act shall remain effective notwithstanding the unconstitutionality. The Legislature declares that it would have passed this act, and each provision, section, subsection, sentence, clause, phrase or word thereof, irrespective of the fact that any one or more provision, section, subsection, sentrence, clause, phrase, or word be declared unconstitutional.

Maybe I'm just paranoid . . .

[Nikki Stone1]

17. No, you're not paranoid. Start a thread on that

We need to keep a watch on that issue. Thank you for pointing that out.

[petronius]

42. Isn't that supposed to be "severable"? I'd guess that kind of boilerpplate

is included in every law (not to mention ever lease agreement I've ever seen)...

[Hekate]

46. As Ellen Goodman said many years ago, perhaps there will be inspections of sanitary pads...

... and funerals and prayers for the contents thereof. :argh:

Hekate

[BR_Parkway]

18. Thanks for pointing this out, I was totally wrong about it - my partner

worked in Public Health for 20 years - they track and report on all sorts of medical statistics so I read the initial reports of this as 'no big deal' they aren't publishing the names and clicked on about my business.

I never saw it as a report on morality, thanks for bringing that point out.

[nashville_brook]

20. kicking and rec'ing this visibility. please lets not let this become invisible.

[Nikki Stone1]

23. Thanks.

:hi:

[nashville_brook]

27. anytime! :)

[havocmom]

21. Wingers whining about government getting between patient & doctor in effort to fight HCR

then doing EXACTLY what they say they are against.

Bunch of ignorant control freaks trying to put the state (government) into the middle of a doctor/patient relationship during the process of treatment.

How many jobs could be created by building a big fucking bridge over that Christian Taliban area of America? We could do a bit of economic stimulus AND let fools know their shit DOES stink. (Only partly kidding re the bridge, but it would sure be nice to have them off the route)

[csziggy]

34. They only want this control over women

No questions for men if they have a history of sex crimes or how many partners they may have had for whatever treatment men might get if they are seeking the blue pills or a vasectomy or treatment for a low sperm count. Just intrusive questioning for women.

[havocmom]

35. Yep, and they do this while insisting we fight the Taliban

They have no sense of irony or decency.

[csziggy]

37. That is why I class all religious fundalmentalists in the same group

The whole bush "crusade against Islam" was just an internecine war between sects of the same religion as far as I am concerned. Judeo/Christian/Islam fringe groups are all dangerous to critical thinking and equally undesirable. :shrug:

[havocmom]

38. agree

[defendandprotect]

66. It's worse . . . US/CIA created Islamic JIHAD in Middle East . . . it's ours!!

We spent millions on printing and producing the vile text books used to teach violent notions
of Islam. At the end here I'll give you a like to the info on Afghanistan and the textbooks.
Again, none of this happened by accident -- it's been used to disrupt peaceful religions.

First part of this deals with US/CIA creating the Taliban/Al Qaeda --
Second Part deals with creating Islamic JIHAD in ME --



The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser

Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs <"From the Shadows">, that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

Q: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

Q: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

http://www.takeoverworld.info/brzezinski_interview_shor...


SECOND PART -----

The US spent $100's of millions shooting down Soviet helicopters yet didn't spend a penny helping Afghanis rebuild their infrastructure and institutions.

They also spent millions producing jihad preaching, fundamentalist textbooks and shipping them off to Afghanistan. These were the same text books the Western media discussed in shocked tones and told their audiences were used by fundamentalist teachers to brainwash their charges and to inculcate in young Afghanis a jihad mindset, hatred of foreigners and non-Muslims etc.


Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal?

Or perhaps I should say, "Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal that's waiting to happen?"

Because it has been almost unreported in the Western media that the US government shipped, and continues to ship, millions of Islamist textbooks into Afghanistan.

Only one English-speaking newspaper we could find has investigated this issue: the Washington Post. The story appeared March 23rd.

Washington Post investigators report that during the past twenty years the US has spent millions of dollars producing fanatical schoolbooks, which were then distributed in Afghanistan.

"The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books..." -- Washington Post, 23 March 2002 (1)

According to the Post the U.S. is now "...wrestling with the unintended consequences of its successful strategy of stirring Islamic fervor to fight communism."

So the books made up the core curriculum in Afghan schools. And what were the unintended consequences? The Post reports that according to unnamed officials the schoolbooks "steeped a generation in violence."

How could this result have been unintended? Did they expect that giving fundamentalist schoolbooks to schoolchildren would make them moderate Muslims?

Nobody with normal intelligence could expect to distribute millions of violent Islamist schoolbooks without influencing school children towards violent Islamism. Therefore one would assume that the unnamed US officials who, we are told, are distressed at these "unintended consequences" must previously have been unaware of the Islamist content of the schoolbooks.

But surely someone was aware. The US government can't write, edit, print and ship millions of violent, Muslim fundamentalist primers into Afghanistan without high officials in the US government approving those primers.

http://www.tenc.net/articles/jared/jihad.htm

[defendandprotect]

70. Needless to say, GOP/right wing also pushed Fundimentalist religions in US --

GOP gave start up funds to the Christian Coalition --

Other wealthy ring wing including Scaife and Mellon funded Dobson's organization

and Bauer's organization.

We also have penetration of our military/academies and Congress by these right wing fundi

groups --

And that goes way back if you remember General Edwin D. Walker -- the guy Oswald allegedly

shot at. Rather, he was FIRED by JFK for spreading right wing political stuff in military

including KKK/NAZI material. Later Gen. Walker led the racist riot at Ole Miss where

James Meredith was trying to enroll. Walker was arrested there and ordered to undergo

psychiatric treatment.

[AzDar]

22. K & R

& :grr:

[Nikki Stone1]

24. Could some of you all rec another thread by the poster enlightenment?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6753655

She has a different take and it's also very important.

[Lars39]

25. Glad to.

Thanks for pulling this info together.

[Nikki Stone1]

26. Thank you.

:hi:

[RainDog]

28. Second-class citizenship for females?

they don't have a basic right to privacy because they have vaginas?

I want a list of all males who have traveled to "sex tourism" locales. I want to know how many males have prescriptions for viagra, whether they're married or not, how many children they have, how much they pay in child support if they're divorced, how many times they've been tested for STDs... and if they have herpes, etc. I think those males should be forced to wear a yellow star at all times.

[Lars39]

30. Don't forget...who has had a vasectomy, too.

[Nikki Stone1]

33. That will come. Just look at Alabama's sex toy law.

These sick fucks want into your bedroom in a big way.

[Hekate]

45. Your burqa: Don't leave home without it.

:grr:

Hekate

[MidwestRick]

53. A yellow star?

You really went there? Wow. Some how you took the idea of gaining information (not tied to specific people) on abortions to the deaths of 6 million Jews?

[RainDog]

76. Sarcasm relies on hyperbole

You are fooling yourself if you don't see this entire move as a way to systematically try to undermine the right to privacy and to choice, tho.

Alabama is a sewer of stupidity. If they spent even half the time trying to insure a decent education for its citizens as they do trying to police their sexual and reproductive lives, the entire nation would be better off.

that last sentence was not hyperbole. I mean that.

[boppers]

40. I don't object to scrubbed data being gathered and disseminated.

I trust the census, too... I don't fear my government that much. Heck, I wouldn't mind my whole medical record even being published *with* my name attached to it (unlike these records, which don't identify people).

That being said, there are possibly (as noted upthread) serious HIPAA concerns, and I understand that others are much more concerned about personal privacy than I am.

[Hekate]

44. Motives matter. In this case it is abundantly clear that naming and shaming are the motives...

They want to go back to the days when the only abortions done at all were those performed by unlicensed hacks who were (legally speaking) criminals, so that anything bad that happened to a woman was only what she deserved. They can't actually overturn Roe vs Wade, but they can make abortion a shameful act, having already made it dangerous for clinic doctors, nurses, and escorts. When they've shut down the last clinic and murdered the last doctor, the only abortions to be had in Oklahoma will be by unlicensed hacks operating beneath the law -- and whatever happens to a woman desperate enough to go to one will once again be "only what she deserves."

Hekate

[niyad]

49. have you ever had death threats, assaults, obscene phone calls,

stalking, having your property vandalized as a result of working for reproductive rights, or as a clinic escort, or the woman walking into that clinic? have you been verbally abused, had vile things shoved in your face, had people screaming at you? I have--and so have most of the people who work for reproductive rights.

this "law" is painting a target on women's backs--don't forget that Dr. Tiller was recently murdered there.

[ehrnst]

50. This data would be flawed - because there's no way to filter for multiple visits

to different phyisicans by one woman. She would be counted mulitiple times as different women.

The information that's required would be enough to identify a woman in a small community (date of abortion, educational level, number of live births, age, marital status) - all that would have been enough to have identifed my mother, a teacher in the late 70's in our small town.

This is such a blatant way to intimidate women, and create extra paperwork and reporting for gyns that perform abortions.

[niyad]

47. there are THIRTY-SEVEN questions a woman must answer--

http://www.sos.state.ok.us/documents/Legislation/52nd/2009/1R/HB/1595.pdf

[MidwestRick]

51. This debate is silly imo

Unless they are planning to tie a persons name or SSN to This information gained then there is no privacy issue at all. Please feel free to throw out the argument "well what about vasectomies?". Fine, publish the data...if my name isn't tied to it, it doesn't bother me a bit. The information can be used to help educate people away from using abortion. To me few abortions is a good thing, as long as those deciding against them are doing so through their own decision and choice.

[Hepburn]

52. Few abortions is a good thing... Really?

IMO, it is irrelevant the nubmer of abortions done because as a matter of PRIVACY, an abortion is a Constitutional right.

So...should we also track the demographic stats on the number of times...

...the 5th Amendment is taken?

...a search warrant is challenged under the 4th?

...right to counsel is demanded under the 6th?

Wanna get into the 2nd Amendment, too?

How about all of the demographic characteristics of gun owners? You think the gun rights advocates might howl that this is a way to hunt down gun owners?

So tell me ... why should abortion ~~ which is Const protected ~~ be treated any differently than any other Const right?

:eyes:

The reason is pretty clear ~~ there are elements in our society that wish to end this right and giving them the info, IMO, only helps these anti-women RW nutjobs.

[MidwestRick]

54. An abortion in every pot?

:bounce:

[Hepburn]

55. If a woman wants an abortion for whatever reason....

...end of discussion. PERIOD.

We are NOT merely incubators because we have wombs. When there are two organisms in one body, the fetus has NO rights under the US Const, and therefore the rights of the female control. The female is the only one of the two with the rights. There simply is no Const reason which allows for the invasion of privacy associated with the const right to an abortion. It is merely another way to try to make females second class citizens.

So, it is NONE of anyone's business as to WTF she wishes to do with her body.

[Darth_Kitten]

56. Well, there will NEVER be anything about the vasectomies.....

or about how many children men have, or what birth control methods THEY use, etc, etc.

[polmaven]

59. My suggestion,

....RICK....is that you should probably choose not to have an abortion, huh?

[Gormy Cuss]

63. You're wrong -- it's not silly.

I say that as someone who has had to establish confidentiality and anonymity protocols for federally-sponsored research. The OK law collects enough data points to make identification easy in low population density areas yet it doesn't seem to include any data suppression rules to protect the confidentiality of individuals.

As for it not mattering to you, that's not a privacy standard. You did hit the nail on the head with your comment on "few abortions is a good thing" because ultimately that's the goal of the OK law -- to intimidate as many women as possible into choosing anything but abortion.

[defendandprotect]

65. And how could the "information be used to help educate people away from using abortion"?????

How do you arrive at that result?

[Blue_Tires]

68. the name and SSN doesn't matter -- even the most noobish of net detectives

can easily track someone down using the other info provided...

[bertman]

57. When I was a young stud and had my vasectomy I was kinda hoping somebody would

put me on a public list so all the wimmen would know.

;)

But seriously, you are absolutely right, Nikki. This is a major infringement on our rights based soley on religious beliefs of some citizens.

Recommend.

[valerief]

58. K&R

[katandmoon]

62. Please don't dilute this issue by bringing AIDS, STD's, vasectomies, etc., into it --

This is a specific attack on WOMEN who exercise their legal right to have abortions. It is meant to intimidate and punish those women, by making their identities vulnerable to public exposure with the public revelation of so much personal info.

The people behind this law couldn't care less about who has AIDS, STD's, or vasectomies. Those simply aren't issues to them. They are only obsessed with abortion. They only care about keeping women and their reproductive organs under control.

[Le Taz Hot]

64. The same lovely forces that brought us Prop H8

are on a roll. Not content to legislate discriminatory laws against the LGBT community (and any law that affects one group affects us all), these same Christian Soldiers of Gawd will now focus their attention on religion's historic second-class citizen: women. I began my activism with this issue when I was 16. I'm 54 now. I can't begin to tell you how tired I am of fighting the same battle over and over and over again. :mad:

[lonestarnot]

67. They remind me of a herd of busy bodies, ignorant busy bodies.

[sui generis]

71. I did not see identifying information

such as name, address, etc.

I still don't like it but I'm not drawing the same moral conclusions necessarily.

Truthfully the anonymous demographic information IS important, but the "internet" is not a valid scientific repository of such data. This is yet another reason that states rights should not exist.

Obama unfortunately believes that gay marriage is a matter of states rights while interracial marriage is federally protected. Yet another dissonance and disconnect.

[EFerrari]

78. In a small community, age, gender and race could be as good as

a name and address for ID.

[sui generis]

79. I can see your point

If that's the issue though, then that's the problem space that needs to be addressed. I completely get the zip code issue - I can tell you I've gone on a football dig through my own zip code and was able to determine more than even I wanted or intended to know about my neighbors and nearbors.

There are valid reasons to collect demographic information - zip code doesn't have to always be included if state will suffice, and any study author should be able to justify the granularity of the study as no deeper than the state level.

[blueworld]

73. Blatant institutionalized sexism, intimidation & attack

These are the tactics when certain red state legislators & self-righteous religious fanatics can't get what they want any other way. Shame & embarrass & ostracize.

All the women in Oklahoma & all the men in Oklahoma who love women (mothers, sisters, friends & relatives) should make this a battle to the end. This is an attack & your points are excellent.

:grr:

I edited this to be sure I wouldn't be interpreted as a homophobe - I mean loving any woman who will be victimized by this horrible bill.

[newspeak]

74. reminds me of an incident that happened in the early nineties

I was in class at that time, so the case was discussed. A young woman who was pregnant was in an auto accident. The doctor told her family that she might have a chance of surviving if they aborted the fetus. The family approved, after all, the life of their daughter and wife was in jeopardy. Some asshole anti-abortion attorney (male) steps in and holds up the procedure. The young woman died. This obscene creep had no ties to this family, had no right to invade in their very emotional dilemma. But, they loved their daughter, and their daughter was their priority. Not everyone BELIEVES the same tripe as some of these fundies. There are actually some of us who value our daughters, sisters and friends more than a zygote. And, abortion should have never ever been a political issue. It is between a woman, her family, her clergy (if relevant). To me, it is none of their damn business! I'm fed up with these faux righteous people shoving their beliefs on others. If they don't want to use BC or get an abortion-fine, don't do it. Just don't expect some of us to think or believe they way you do.

Also, I had a class friend who was recently married. Her doctor accidentally gave her the measles vaccination, not knowing she was pregnant (early). She had an abortion, as the doctor told her the chances were very high for abnormalities in the fetus. I've had other friends who have different stories, as to why they had to face the decision of abortion or sustaining the fetus. But, in every case, it was their decision to make. A couple of my friends were actually on BC pills and still got pregnant. Just shows contraception doesn't work all of the time.

[Nikki Stone1]

75. Why was that attorney allowed to get involved?

That's INSANE! He had no interest.

[niyad]

77. kick--we will not let this topic disappear