The gun grabbers are right. No college student should be allowed to have a gun. Too young.

[karlrschneider]

And not smart enough to learn to use them responsibly.

That right must be reserved to soldiers. Who, uh, are basically the same age...and
mostly didn't go to college. Damn...this isn't working out the way I intended.
:eyes:

[EstimatedProphet]

1. I had them in college

but not AT college. They stayed in my apartment.

[wtmusic]

2. Yeah, if only the murderer had been taught responsibility

we would have saved all those lives... :eyes:

[JuniperLea]

5. You jest, and roll your eyes

But there is a chance that had this person known first hand what a gun can do, he wouldn't have done this.

Besides, you don't know the mind of this person. A gun could have easily been way down the list. You can kill a lot more people with bombs, and the Internets are full of bomb building instructions.

[wtmusic]

9. If it wasn't so tragic, your post would be funny

Don't you think he saw first hand what they can do after he pulled the trigger?

The logical contortions seemingly rational people can resort to are astounding.

[uppityperson]

16. Before he shot anyone. Obviously he knew afterwards.

I think you missed that part. Didn't know firsthand what a gun would do before he shot it today.

[JuniperLea]

80. People are only hearing what they want to hear

And then making up the rest. And then giving other's crap for what they made up in their own minds. Unbelievable.

[JuniperLea]

20. Read again!!! I'm talking before the shooting!

Obviously! Good God. The contortions, indeed!

[zanne]

97. Some gunlovers here could teach Rove a few tricks. nt

[SayWhatYo]

29. I doubt that... He did what he did because he knew what a gun could do...

like most other people who do not live under a rock. As for the bomb thing, maybe he didn't think he could, maybe it was spontaneous, or maybe he wanted to see the people he killed. Who knows?

[Critters2]

64. It's easier to get a gun than build a bomb.

I have no idea how to build a bomb. Guns I can get at Wal-Mart.

[JuniperLea]

88. Google is your friend

There have been tons of articles right here on DU on bomb building instructions found on the Internets over the past several years. A lot of public libraries carry such books, and they can be found in bookstores too. Where do you think Timothy McVeigh learned the craft?

Bookstores are easy, Internets are easy... much, much easier (and cheaper) than buying a gun.

[Critters2]

62. He seemed pretty clear as to what a gun could do. nt

[karlrschneider]

11. Probably. Did you have a point?

...

[wtmusic]

14. The point was to highlight the absurdity of your OP

in suggesting that teaching kids responsibility with guns would prevent this kind of thing.

Methinks the causes run just a bit deeper than that.

[karlrschneider]

17. Does the depth of your perspicacity include a solution?

???

[wtmusic]

25. When more is known about the details

we'll have to put common threads together with Columbine and other school shootings. A possible approach would involve a combination of psychological profiling and $$ for social services to expand outreach for troubled adolescents/young adults.

Oh, and make ownership of firearms illegal for anyone under 21.

That's about as perspicacious as I get.

[karlrschneider]

30. We have a lot of 18 year old troops. Can they own a gun?

I have no problem with psychological background checks and/or evaluation for people buying guns but what do you propose to do about the 250+ million of them that already are in the hands of US citizens? We can't exactly "uninvent" them any more than you can turn back the clock and cancel the Manhattan Project.

Some countries have draconian gun control laws...which have worked pretty well, SO FAR...but what happens if or when the ruling class decides to go beyond what Bushco has done...form a dictatorship for example. Yes I know the old argument about "the government has the firepower" but as was demonstrated in the American Revolution, you can't wipe out a large swarm of mad-as-hell bees with a 200 mm cannon. Or a 20 megaton bomb.

[wtmusic]

40. It comes down to supervision

Troops are supervised, as are kids learning how to shoot. I grew up in a hunting household and damned if that gun cabinet wasn't locked up tight and the key hidden well away so my crazy adolescent ass couldn't get near it.

There is no way to completely prevent teen murders and suicides, but this kind of thing is different. From preliminaries it sounds like this is a jealous rage gone haywire, and IMO draconian measures are in order for that segment of the population and that segment only.

[karlrschneider]

47. I don't really disagree but have no idea how to identify and/or isolate

people with a possible predisposition to violence. I guess we could adopt and expand on the Bush Doctrine...

[JuniperLea]

90. Or give litmus tests like NASA...

Oh, wait... they let a mentally ill, diaper wearing stalker through their testing system... never mind.

We should enforce the laws we have and double any sentence when a gun is involved in a crime.
Taking guns away won't work.

[JuniperLea]

89. Most kids only know what guns do on TV, in movies and video games

The result of gunshots are never, ever depicted accurately in those sources.

We all grow up seeing people shot on TV and in movies and we see those actors again next week. That's not how it is in the real world. When a person hits a mental disconnect, the knowledge of seeing first hand what happens to things that are shot could save a life.

[JuniperLea]

3. I think it's too late to take the guns away in this society

Although I know there are many here at DU who would like to see just that. I think it's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. If they think that Mr. Gansta McShootemup is going to give up his guns, there's a bridge in NYC I'd like to discuss.

[bluerum]

8. You are so right - much smarter to give guns out to every testosterone

soaked ape that crawls out of the swamp.

[karlrschneider]

13. That's not a very nice way to describe our troops.

...

[uppityperson]

18. never mind

bluerum didn't mention troops, you did. Edited to change since I reread your OP

[JuniperLea]

19. Bullshit... I never said anything like that.

Shove your strawman where the sun don't shine, umkay?

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JuniperLea]

79. You refuse to listen and you make shit up...

Then you stoop to name calling. Brilliant way to lose all credibility.

[JuniperLea]

81. I never said anything like that and you know it

People in this day and age should learn to read for understanding instead of assumptions that they have the awesome power to read the minds of those who write things on the Internets. It would keep a lot of people from being sucked into the pretzel shaped tubes.

[Goblinmonger]

66. "Mr. Gansta McShootemup"?

So this is a black thing?

[hiaasenrocks]

69. Why are you associating that with black people?!?!

That is racist.

[Goblinmonger]

74. Let's see

"Gangsta"? That is generally associated with black culture. I'm not the one that made the original statement. I'm the one pointing out that the person's choice of words about who won't give up their guns was a reference to a specific genre of hip-hop/rap that is primarily associated with black artists. Don't shoot the messenger.

[JuniperLea]

91. You are wrong, misguided, etc

It is not only used for black gangstas... live in the inner city for a while and you pick up on the nuances of such colloquialisms.

[JuniperLea]

93. It certainly is!!!

The gangstas in my 'hood come in all the colors of the rainbow.

[JuniperLea]

77. You sure can reach...

I live in Los Angeles. Gangsters come in all the colors of the rainbow. Chill and stop reaching.

[Goblinmonger]

82. Well, how about a little deconstruction

OK, I get the pop culture reference of "Namey McName." That isn't racist.

So when talking about who has the guns, let's see the word that is chosen. Contrary to your statement of living in LA, the choice was not "gangster" but "gangsta." They could have said:

Gangster McTommygun

That would have been a nice, generic reference to days gone past. But "gangsta" carries with it a very specific connotation and that generally is focused on blacks or at least people of color. You don't find that word choice interesting? Think of all the other names that could have been used:

Gunny McShootemup
Shooty McGunningham
Angry McGruffhater

There are a plethora of options available, but the word of choice is one that focuses on people of color. Sorry for pointing it out, but I don't think it is reaching at all. What if it had been this one:

Redneck McRifleberg ---or---
Drunky McTrailerpark

Don't you think people would have been chiming in about how shitty that is and how all poor people aren't rednecks, etc. But aim it at a person of color word and all of sudden I'm "reaching"?

[JuniperLea]

84. Bullshit

Spoken like someone who knows zero about the gangsta culture. In Los Angeles, all gangstas are gangstas, regardless of color, creed or nation of origin. After spending 15 years in West Side Long Beach, having my kids go to school at Jackie Robinson Academy, Poly High, etc., I know quite a bit about the gangsta culture. Clearly, you don't.

Black gangstas are gangstas. White gangstas are gangstas. Latino gangstas are gangstas. Asian ganstas are gangstas... and I've had several of each as neighbors and fellow students in my kids' schools.

Gangstas haven't been gangsters since Al Capone's day.

Get a grip and quit looking for trouble where none exists.

[Goblinmonger]

86. So it isn't racist

but it's classist? Why not address the fact that you didn't choose some other distinction? Why not address the fact that you attribute the "we can't collect guns" argument to someone other than "gangstas" be they whatever color?

Why not address the fact that Spike Lee has compared gangsta rap to the old black face routine. If it is all colors, why would Spike think that it is primarily a black thing? Apparently I need to contact Spike and let him know that Juniperx thinks he is completely ignorant of the gangsta culture and should stop talking about shit he knows nothing about. I wonder what his response to you would be? Actually, I would LOVE to know what his response would be.

You can talk all you want about your intimate experience in the hood, but you can't tell me that if you walk around America and use the term gangsta that it doesn't evoke black imagery. I know, everyone but you is ignorant of gangsta culture, but we are talking about word choice which does become important as to what the meaning of the word is accepted to be by those that consume it. You DIDN'T choose a different word and that means something. Stop acting like it doesn't and you just pulled a random word out of a hat.

[JuniperLea]

87. I didn't choose another word

Because I chose to use the correct colloquialism. That's all that means.

You sure do like to reach, extrapolate, assume and accuse.

That's the word we use in my neck of the woods... no, my 'hood, yo! Get a grip. That's life in the big city, dude. I live it.

Gangsta Rap is a musical genre; gangstas are people.

[Goblinmonger]

92. OK, you're livin' the life.

Hard to argue with that.

[JuniperLea]

94. Yet you felt the need to try

And you tried to beat the shit out of me verbally too. All the while you only knew what you read somewhere. Huh. That speaks volumes. Mountains and molehills do quite well on their own.

Some of us start out in neighborhoods we would ordinarily avoid because we want to own a home. I owned a home "on the west side" of Long Beach, CA, for 15 years. My property quadrupled in value during that time, as excepted, and I moved out of "da 'hood"... not without getting an education on the life therein.

If you are inferring I'm a gangsta, you are barking up the wrong tree. I'm a law abiding, tax paying, hard working, corporate high rise mother of three, yo.

[Goblinmonger]

95. My post was sarcasm.

If Imus had said that crack about "gangstas" I have no doubt he would be derided as being a racist.

[JuniperLea]

96. Only because people are too stupid to understand

and to quick to pull the racism card.

Most people don't have a clue about life in the 'hood. That lends itself to dumbass assumptions.

[INDIA]

4. I don't think College Kids should have guns.

And I only graduated last year. College kids just get WAY too drunk and out of control nowdays.

Soldiers go out on the town and leave their M16s at home. College kids have parties in the same houses they store their weapons. Too much potential for disaster.

[karlrschneider]

7. You're right. Soldiers never drink with weapons within reach.

Wanna buy some beachfront property in Nebraska?

[bluerum]

10. Good reason NOT to sell guns. eom

[INDIA]

31. Soldiers that young will...

be under the discipline and command structure of the military, with NCO's and officers keeping an eye on them, as well as countless hours on the range and in hours that the average college age gun owner won't have. And don't most soldiers/Marines have to keep their weapons locked up in the armory? Or at least locked up when they aren't in training? And even then, isn't there a tight leash on live rounds?

I've seen both sides. I graduated college and finished Marine Corps OCS. I was impressed with the maturity and discipline of the candidates at OCS. A lot of them were gun nuts and I would have had no problem knowing they were carrying. College kids are borderline retarded, or at least the yahoos I hung out with were. My friends and I would wake up and not remember a thing from the night before pretty regularly. And I went to a top 35 school, god knows what kinds of numbskulls you'll have packing heat at Fill in the Blank State University. And having some of those idiots packing in class? I wouldn't even be able to concentrate.

And for the record, I love shooting, am pro-gun, but I wouldn't even trust myself with a gun during my college days.
Things are different nowdays Karl. Binge drinking is the norm, and kids get waaaaaaay out of control.

[karlrschneider]

45. Okay, I defer to your obviously more recent experience.

I've had guns for about 57 years. And so have most of my contemporaries. I never knew of any of us being irresponsible to the point of danger with any of them - we were taught to respect and yes, even 'fear' them in a manner of speaking. I guess what I'm trying to say is that when I'm around someone -else- with a gun, loaded or not (they always are!) I'm extremely watchful and cautious and I'm that way even when *I* am the one holding it. None of us would -ever- hand over a weapon to another person without opening the cylinder, for a revolver, or having a finger in
the breech of a semi, etc.

Be that as it may, I don't really believe there are many college kids showing up at class drunk. It probably does happen now and then but it has to be rare and not all that well tolerated.

I'm sorry I offend so many DUers on this subject but I find it incomprehensible to read that some of them seem to think it's better somehow to just sit back and be massacred than to make at least an attempt at self-defense. Isn't that the sort of apathy that got us all into this mess in the first place?

[INDIA]

48. Unfortunately, it seems to me that...

The people my age are a lot less mature than the people of your generation.

And showing up drunk to class with a gun isn't so much the issue, as is getting wasted at home/party, getting the gun out, showing it off/playing with it/or running up to get if if there is a fight that would only result in a couple of black eyes under normal circumstances.

And as I said before, it just doesn' seem like people have ANY common sense anymore. I went to a school where the average SAT was around a 1350, and I would witness kids doing unspeakably stupid and immature acts while drunk. There are supposedly intelligent kids, and I would hardly trust them with a pocket knife on an average Saturday night.

I have a friend who reported his car stolen because he parked it outside the bar, blacked out, and walked home. Do I want him packing, even after the requisite training? Nope!

I don't think there is anything that could have prevented this. College kids packing would cause more heartache and tragedy in the long run, with incidents like this getting the most press coverage.

[karlrschneider]

52. Well, if the bleak picture you paint is accurate, maybe the problem will solve itself

through attrition. I don't have the answer...does anyone?

[uppityperson]

12. Ever hear of Abeer, Hadeel, Fakhriya and Qassim?

[INDIA]

34. uhhh, no? not sure where you're going with this. n/t

[uppityperson]

39. Soldiers who drink and take their guns with them

Alcohol, Personality Disorders, Iraq debacle turned into this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abeer_Qassim_al-Janabi

[INDIA]

44. Okay, we can't take guns away from soldiers.

But it is possible to keep them away from alcohol while in theatre, or at least limit it as much as possible. And I agree with your point that alcohol and guns don't mix well.

It is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to keep college kids away from alcohol. There is a serious binge drinking epidemic going on in this country, I was apart of it. Giving kids guns on top of that is Bad News Bears.

[karlrschneider]

49. I haven't seen anyone (certainly not I) proposing to pass out guns like cookies

on Valentine's day. And maybe I'm just crazier than a shithouse rat, but if *I* were sitting in a classroom with a concealed gun and some psycho was systematically assassinating my classmates, there's no doubt I would empty a clip into the bastard. Why is the concept of self-defense so abhorrent to some DUers?...I don't get it.

[INDIA]

51. It's all about odds.

The chances of a psycho walking into your class and killing classmates? Absurdly low, 1 in tens of millions.

The chances of a gun accidentily going off if a bunch of 19 year old, undisciplined, immature, binge drinking frat boys bring dozens of guns to class every day. MUCH MUCH higher. "Dude, brah, does this gun look loaded? I'm too hungover to think right now"

Maybe there could be a compromise? Like letting the upperclass ROTC kids carry? Or a couple qualified professors in every building?

[karlrschneider]

53. Yes, I think my position hasn't been clearly grasped. I never said all students

should have (or even allowed to have) weapons. But a few (and professors?...why not) screened and trained could minimize the toll in these kinds of situations.

[karlrschneider]

46. Nothing in that wiki link says anything about alcohol.

...

[uppityperson]

58. Wiki is only the place to start. They were drinking before they went out.

Playing golf and drinking. Lots of info on the web, and on DU, about this. Try a search in news for Steven Green, Steven D. Green and Mahmoudiya

Here is a link to one.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1839522,00.html

US soldiers, accused of raping and murdering a 14-year-old Iraqi girl, drank alcohol and hit golf balls before the attack. One of them grilled chicken wings afterwards, a criminal investigator told a US military hearing yesterday....(much more @ link)

Here is another.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5253160.stm

On the day of the attack the soldiers had been drinking Iraqi whisky mixed with an energy drink and practising golf strokes at a checkpoint south of Baghdad, Mr Barker's statement said. (much more @ link)

Then the military discharged Steven Green for a Personality Disorder and sent him back to the USA. Then Iraqis killed a bunch of soldiers in the same area in retaliation. On and on. How much did alcohol have to do with it? I don't know.

[Junkdrawer]

6. College A allows guns in the dorms...College B doesn't....

Guess which one parents send their kids to...

[karlrschneider]

15. My crystal ball is broken. What does yours say?

...

[Junkdrawer]

21. Think hard...(hint) the kids are 18 and are going to be away....

from their parents oversight for the first time....

[karlrschneider]

22. I guess you're right. None of them ever went camping, on a hunting trip

ad nauseum. And none of them ever lived in a house with guns inside it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. How many people have "responsible" soldiers killed?

I think the figure stands in the 100s of millions.

[wtmusic]

28. Typically soldiers aren't responsible at all

They're doing what they're told to do.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. They very last thing the brass want is "responsible" soldiers.

God forbid the troops should think for themselves because if they did, there would be a helluva lot fewer troops willing to get their asses shot off for nothing.

[karlrschneider]

35. No doubt. But Nuremburg notwithstanding, orders are orders, mostly.

...

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

24. kent state

what would that have looked like if there were a fire fight with the national guard. i think more than 4 would have been killed. on the otherhand, maybe the guaed wouldn't have opened fire.

[karlrschneider]

50. We will never know. But it's not a very good analogy...there were MANY

guardsmen at Kent, not one psycho with 2 pistols.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

57. i'm not making an analogy to VT

just posing a question as to what might have happened if students were allowed to have guns on campus.
edit sp

[Maddy McCall]

26. Wrong. First of all, there's a very significant segment of students...

who are non-traditionals--older students. What are they supposed to do? Hand their guns in when they enroll at 40?

[A Simple Game]

41. Hey, that was me in 2003. Graduated when I was 53.

Before I went back to school, I was already smart enough to know that Campus was no place for guns. Been on a campus lately? There are a lot of weirdos there, mostly harmless, some probably not.

I repeat, it is no place for guns. A lot of bad stuff happens on college campuses, you don't hear about most of it unless it is real bad.

What to do with the guns? Leave them at home like I did! I doubt you would be very popular if it was known that you were carrying on campus. Students and teachers alike would most likely fear you not look to you as a protector.

[karlrschneider]

54. Uh, were you intending to reply to someone else?

I'm confused...
:-)

[BlueManDude]

27. If every class was filled with kids packing guns

we'd see a slaughter like today's at VTU practically every week.

[AnnieBW]

33. Or a lot more suicides

When I went to college, we joked that we had a bed in the local psych hospital reserved for students of my college that had nervous breakdowns. A couple of my friends occupied that bed at some point. The bridge between the Pitt campus and the CMU campus was known as "Suicide Bridge", for obvious reasons. Now, what's going to happen when kids who are in high-pressure environments flunk a class, or get put on probation, or whatever? They're going to get a convenient gun and blow their brains out rather than seek help.

I don't give a crap about the whole gun vs. no gun issue. I grew up around people that knew how to handle guns responsibly. They were hunters. However, there were a lot of times that, given free access to a firearm, I would have either taken my own life or blown away all of the rich, snobby jocks that were teasing me.

BTW, soldiers are TAUGHT how to handle weapons responsibly. That doesn't mean that they do it. But they're more responsible than others their age.

[Junkdrawer]

36. CMU 72 -> 76 here....Panther Hollow Bridge. Yep. n/t

[AnnieBW]

43. Yep. I went to Chatham - 83-87.

n/t

[karlrschneider]

61. Soldiers are TAUGHT (your emphasis) to kill people.

The upside is that for the most part they don't kill people for personal reasons. Neither do civilians who have been properly TAUGHT to handle guns properly. And you would have "...blown away all the rich, snobby jocks..."????

That's actually pretty frightening.

[AnnieBW]

98. Back then, maybe

Or maybe I'd have just killed myself instead.

[Critters2]

65. Yep, at the very least, they should take the guns away from

those is Kafka and Sartre courses.

[JVS]

67. I don't remember anyone jumping off that bridge. I do remember a kid jumping...

from a dorm-room in the litchfield towers.

[karlrschneider]

55. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't extrapolate on my comment.

Thank you.

[BlueManDude]

73. Oh spare me please. Read you own original post which is a study in extrapolation. n/t

[gatorboy]

37. Eh? Are you trying to start an argument where there is none?

The gun fetish groups are out in DROVES!

[dysfunctional press]

38. do you have a fish farm to breed all these red herrings you've been tossing around?

how many college students would be willing to go through military basic & firearm training in order to pack heat during lecture?

karlschneider presents his talking points live:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLjNJI54GMM

[karlrschneider]

60. Why don't you do a survey and find out? Ever hear of ROTC?

And if you're going to misrepresent me with a fucking youtube link, at least have the courtesy to spell my name right.

[dysfunctional press]

71. i don't need to do a survey- it makes more sense to ban guns from campus.

and yes i've heard of rotc- i've also heard that it's a fraction of a minority of students on pretty much any given campus....why?

[DemoTex]

42. Fugitall .. ban guns. All guns.

End the war and use that money to buy-back guns. Irrational? I hope so. I'm crazy when in comes to guns. Remember my niece in Paris? 1998? Gut-shot. GUT-FUCKING-SHOT by a UK soccer hood. Still recovering to this day. She has 20% of her small bowel. One little cough in that will kill her.

BTW: The "gun" left her sterile. No babies from that beautiful woman.

FUCK GUNS!

mac

[karlrschneider]

59. Mac, you're a friend and you're spot on 99.999% of the time, AND I proposed

a national buy-back program years ago. A lot of cities have done that very thing and it barely makes a dent...the gun makers stay ahead of the game, not only in the US but all around the world. Many years ago a good friend of mine asked to borrow my 12 gauge shotgun "to shoot some rabbits" (to eat) where he was staying & working out in the sticks. He stuck the barrel in his mouth and pushed the trigger with a stick. The sheriff said I could have it back - I didn't want it. So what's the answer? We can't "uninvent" the things. A total ban wouldn't work either practically or politically in this country that exists because the revolutionaries -did- have them. The kinds of machines you and I fly have been used to kill millions the last 100 or so years...and several of my friends and I'd wager some of yours have died
from just operating them.

I hate what happened to your niece...there's nothing I could ever say to mediate your righteous anger over that awful thing. What's the solution?

[DemoTex]

63. Karl, I have to stake out the extreme position on this. Nothing personal.

He stuck the barrel in his mouth and pushed the trigger with a stick.

Bad shit!

Love ya' like a brother!

Mac

[karlrschneider]

70. Same here, Mac. I wish we could fix this problem.

Dammit to hell anyway. :cry:

[B Calm]

68. This republican administration grabbed guns from citizens in NO..

[PsN2Wind]

72. Hi Karl. I went to Oregon Institute of Technology

in 1980 as a gunsmithing student. It was also the first two years of manufacturing technology.
Probably one of the very few here with an Associates degree in Small Arms Technology.
No one thought anything of seeing someone headed to their locker with a rifle, shotgun or handgun. But that was certainly a different culture than what we've become since. Hell at that time, the opener of deer season was an excusable absence from most Oregon High Schools. There are way too many guns on the streets in the hands of people that shouldn't have them. I own guns, one I've had for 55 years, and I haven't killed anyone yet and will own guns till I die. But I don't think everyone should be able to have them.

[camero]

75. This argument is getting old fast

About the situation being brought under control faster if a student could carry a gun. Most people wouldn't defend someone else even if they had one. They would just look out for themselves and there are a few kindred souls who would defend another even without a gun. Most people though would just freak out.

[Toots]

76. Don't we read almost daily about soldiers with guns and woman and children dying?

Yep guns are really beneficial to mankind...

[Xenotime]

78. Soldiers receive "training" that college students do not.

[JuniperLea]

85. Anyone can get gun safety training

Anyone. Not expensive either.

Not all people should have guns. Clearly it's only for people who are comfortable with that. No one is suggesting guns be foisted into the hands of everyone. That assumption is absurd.

[billbuckhead]

83. The army guys are supervised and 18's to young for them either