I can't believe it's come to this, but I want HCR to fail.

[Joe Fields]

As usual, Capitol Hill has turned into the freakiest of freakshows, when it comes to legislating on big issues. I fully expected these idiots to tie themselves in knots, trying to please their corporate masters, while soft soaping the public. The public overwhelmingly wanted universal coverage. What we will end up with will leave millions STILL out in the cold. But the worst of it will be the Mafia style extortion, with the full backing by the U.S. government, of its citizenry by insurance companies.

Fuck all of that. I don't want any part of it. I want healthcare as badly as the next uninsured person, but this twisted and completely mangled piece of crap that Baucus calls a bill is good only for wiping my ass. Those assholes in D.C. would fuck up a wet dream. I don't want a bill, just to have a bill, so that our president can put one down in the "Win" column.

I have come to like and admire President Obama, but this isn't about him. This time this is about me, and millions of other "me's" out there on the fringes.

I would like to know who else here feels this way.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. I'm waiting to see the process through. Once we find out what the final

bill looks like then I will know whether to cheer or jeer.

But I hear you on this. I really do. :hug:

[Joe Fields]

4. I want to feel like you do, and yes, I guess there is still hope, just

like a sports team that hasn't been mathematically eliminated from the post season yet, but I have an overwhelming sense that the handwriting is already on the wall.

[Ozymanithrax]

2. Why would you want to keep the system we have now that ...

consigns 40000 people a year to death.

I think what you want is the Baucaus Health Insurance Industry Wellfare Bill to fail. That is not the same thing.

[Joe Fields]

5. Good question. Why would I? It's done nothing but cause misery for

me and mine. I firmly believe that the Baucus bill is what we will end up with.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. It will not be

there is still the HELP committee, there is reconciliation, as well as floor votes. Then there is reconciliation with the House bill.

Sausage making at its finest.

[Joe Fields]

15. have to disagree. having watched this debacle up close, I see nothing

to indicate any bill will become more palatable. We will, in all likelihood, end up with a watered down version of the Baucus plan.

But I DO hope you're right. I wouldn't place any money on it, though, if I were you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Actually this is less poisonous than what first came out

and I have also paid close attention to this.

[Ozymanithrax]

10. I am willing to wait and see how the bill will change on its way to Obama's

signature.

The Baucaus Bill is not the only game in town. It will change.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. I will wait for the reconciliation first in the Senate

and then between both bills.

Baucus is not the only game in town... though Baucus is a sell out

[MarjorieG]

6. Does Finance have to pass something, or can we go with the HELP, as the only.

Despite Rockeeller and Wyden making an inspiring show of resisting, we aren't going to get Baucus to go with any form of public option.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. If the finance comiitee bill does not die in committee

Then they have to look at both bills and reconcile them before they go to the floor. That will be the next round of fun and ahem reforms... and closed door negotiations

On the plus side, they've said that they will not invite republicans to reconciliation talks. The bad news, Rahm will be part of it as part of the white house delegation.

This is sausage making pure and simple.

I suspect we will get a PO out of it... not as strong as I'd like... ok I'd rather have universal, but the fight is just begun. Whatever we get it will stink... and like Medicare, SCHIP and SS, we will have to fight to strengthen.

[Hippo_Tron]

59. Republicans aren't invited because they left the table

Which may in the end be the reason we get the public option. If Republicans weren't so intent on beating the President, Baucus probably could've assembled some "bipartisan" piece of crap that would've passed Congress with Republicans and Centrist Democrats and the President would've had to sign it because he needs a bill to get passed.

Now that Republicans have left the table the Progressive Caucus' votes are needed to get a bill passed. That means Baucus and the Conservadems have to negotiate with the Progressive Caucus instead of the Republicans. And remember that if the Progressive Caucus decides to vote no on principle and kill the bill, they aren't the ones who will be voted out due to the Republican resurgence. It will be the Conservadems in moderate/conservative districts that will pay the price.

Ultimately the Conservadems need some kind of health care reform to pass but they are fighting tooth and nail to make sure it doesn't have a public option so they can pacify the tea-baggers in their districts and the health insurance companies donating to them. But I think ultimately they will be goaded into accepting some form of the public option by the House. Even Ben Nelson is at least talking about having a public option on the state level.

[paulk]

69. it's not necessarily bad news that Rahm will be part of the WH

delegation - Rahm works for Obama - speaks for him, as it were...

Whatever comes out of those talks will be the bill Obama wants and, through that, we will all finally know where Obama really stands.

[short guy]

12. These guy's are geniuses!

I can't wait to get government health care for free!!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. Who told you it was free?

[OffWithTheirHeads]

8. I think Jesus says it best

[Ozymanithrax]

11. Did he say that to Mary Magelene?

We will never know.

[tomm2thumbs]

13. It'll be in the courts for years - the GOP will see to that /nt

[Old Hob]

14. Dude, I'm right there with ya. This bill is absolutely appalling.

Its so bad I think they're purposely poisoning it so they won't have to pass it. I hope I'm right.

[truedelphi]

21. Hi Old Hob. I am right there with you. n/t

[pnwmom]

16. Why do you think the final bill will look like the Baucus bill?

The House bill has a robust public option, and so do other Senate bills. It's way too early to be giving up.

[bvar22]

68. The House Bill does NOT have a "robust" Public Option.

Obama was correct when he called the Public Option in the House Bill a "small sliver".

It will NOT be "government run (like Medicare)", and will NOT have ANY of the cost savings advantages of a "government run" program. It WILL be run by a mysterious new private corporation that will most likely be a consortium of the For Profit Health Insurance Industry.

The cost savings in the House Public Option (HR 3200) will be so small (or none) that the CBO projects (and Obama agrees) that 4 out of 5 people FORCED to buy Health Insurance from "The Exchange" will prefer to buy it from a For Profit instead of the "Public Option".


This embarrassment from the House (HR 3200) will NOT "open the door to single payer" since it merely further entrenches the precedent of Americans purchasing Health Insurance from a corporation.
It also will NOT, because of its small size (about 3%), be able to "keep the Insurance Corporations honest through competition".

The House version if far, FAR from "robust", and it will ONLY be available to those who have already been denied Insurance for Pre-Existing conditions, or are too poor to already have Health Insurance.

[pnwmom]

76. The combined House bill does have a robust public option.

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/07/15/why-the-houses-public-option-is-better-than-kennedys-public-option/

The new House bill seeks to reduce health care costs by establishing a robust public health insurance option that takes complete advantage of Medicare’s leverage and lower reimbursement rates.

Initially, given its limited size, a public health insurance option may have difficulty securing cheaper rates with providers. But by reimbursing providers some percentage above Medicare rates, the public option would benefit from Medicare’s ability to negotiate with providers (and given its size and national presence it can negotiate lower rates) and pass on the savings to consumers. Compelling Medicare providers to also accept enrollees from the new public option would ensure a large provider base.

Though the House bill is not perfect—it encourages providers to participate rather than compells them to—it goes much further than the Kenedy bill to take full advantage of a public plan’s market power.

Under the House legislation, Medicare providers are auto-enrolled as providers in the public option (the legislation presumes they will offer coverage unless they opt out) and their reimbursement rates, which are tied to Medicare rates for the first three years, include a 5% bonus for physicians that participate in both Medicare and the public plan.

SNIP

[Maru Kitteh]

17. UN-FUCKING recommend. My kids have NO ACCESS to healthcare

find someplace imaginative to stuff your "it's about me" mentality.

[provis99]

18. well guess what? The current bills won't give them that, either.

It will however, force you to pay a fine for not buying private insurance. So pay attention to the issue or don't display your ignorance here.

[Maru Kitteh]

19. guess what? every damn thing I've seen says you are WRONG

You know so much.

Explain to me how they will have less than the zero access they have now.


Go ahead.

Do it.

[jtrockville]

24. What if their parents are fined/jailed?

I know nothing's final, but just the fact that it's "on the table" to make criminals out of people who can't afford health insurance makes me think we'd all be better off on our own.

If you can't afford it now, how will you be able to afford it after "reform"?

[Maru Kitteh]

25. If that's what it takes fine. Throw my ass in jail. My adult children need access to care.

[jtrockville]

36. Throw them in jail too? Doesn't seem like progress to me.

But they would get health care that way.

[paulk]

71. wrong place

[Joe Fields]

29. So? I have no access, my wife has no access, and neither does my son.

Yes, it's about me, and it's about you. But hey, if you love the fucking insurance companies so much, then embrace this piece of shit legislation and see just how far that gets you.

I'm sick of this "any bill's a good bill" bullshit, and the idiots that think it's just great!

So, you can stuff your opinion.

[paulk]

77. no access how?

they can't afford it?

They have pre-existing conditions and no one will insure them?

What about the current bills being discussed will give them the access they don't now have?

[TheKentuckian]

20. I'd say there is a realistic chance to come out as a country better than we are now

Far from certain but possible and increasingly plausible.

I say that even a slight improvement with some structures that can be added on to means that we have a net win and the ball is moved forward. Not a touchdown or even a big gain but a 1st down? Yup.

Still, I'm prepared to blow it up and/or demand a veto because it really could be that bad but now isn't the time to make that call.

[Joe the Liberal]

22. It's best to wait until the final bill comes out, then make judgment. n/t

[Joe Fields]

28. No, it isn't best. By that time, it most likely will be too late to stop it.

I am voicing my opposition now, on boards, with phone calls to my reps and other politicos, in the hopes of turning this thing back on the correct course, before we all get even more royally screwed.

I have just one question for you. Given the way the entire process has been so mangled, what on earth makes you think that a good bill will magically appear on the president's desk?

[niyad]

23. with you--from what I am reading, and hearing, anything that does pass will do nothing

more than screw us--and hand the insurance companies tons of money, with no improvement in care or cost.

better no bill than the crap it looks like we might get.

[SIMPLYB1980]

26. Fail pushers unite with your PUMA and

teabager brothers and sisters to stop health care reform now!

[Joe Fields]

27. I see you're new to the process. It might help for you to get a clue.

[geek tragedy]

30. You do realize that Finance isn't the final say, right?

It may help to educate yourself on the legislative process before wishing death on 44,000 people per year.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. So true

[Joe Fields]

50. And YOU should know better, unless I have mistaken you.

Naivete, much?

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yodoobo]

31. You should call into the Rush Limbaugh show

He wants Obama to fail too.

I'm sure that he would love to hear more people on his side.

[sendero]

57. Obama has already failed..

... the tards around here just don't know it.

[BlooInBloo]

33. More DUers pretending that the Baucus fail-bill is the only thing going on...

Just so they can do their all-or-nothing whine.

[Joe Fields]

34. Bullshit. I just happen to know how the process works.

I know how many bills are out there. None of them are worth a shit, but go ahead and support your beloved insurance industry.

[ProSense]

38. "I know how many bills are out there. None of them are worth a shit" Bullshit

The HELP bill and its counterparts include a strong public option.

[Joe Fields]

39. Not nearly strong enough, and if you think they won't put meaningless

triggers into it, IF, by some miracle they decide to run with that particular bill. (which should know THAT THEY WON'T)

Tell me I'm wrong.

[ProSense]

48. "Tell me I'm wrong." OK

You're wrong.

[Joe Fields]

54. Put your money where your mouth is.

Care to back up your statement with cash on the line?

[ProSense]

74. I'll just post this

here and bookmark your OP.

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. You aren't indicating that you have much of an understanding of the process

:shrug:

[Joe Fields]

51. what makes you think I need to prove anything to you?

You have already shown me your limited world view. I need go no further with you.

But, care to make a wager that the final bill that WILL be signed is nothing but a piece of shit?

Put your damned money where your BIG mouth is!!!!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. My money - what little I have - is going toward heath care reform efforts

I will not waste it on silly bets with uninformed folks.

[Joe Fields]

63. That's no surprise. Can't even afford a little 10 dollar wager?

Oh ye, of little faith.

lol

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. With you - no

All I see you do is log on here every couple months and whine about whatever is bothering you at the moment. Never once have you put your ass out on the line in the streets of this community and tried to effect real change. You have never come to any of our area DU meetups. You aren't involved in any local political groups. You do nothing but complain. You are just a whiner on the internet. That's not how we bring about change.

And you dare to tease ME that I have little faith? I have plenty of faith, enough that I believe in the power of the people and the real possibility for health care reform. So my ass is out there, doing the work, while you whine.

Put your feet on the street and help us pass real health care reform and I'll gladly make a wager with you.

[Joe Fields]

70. You don't know me. You just think you do.

As far as associating with you, that will never happen. I don't like you. You call yourself a progressive, but you're just another "fall in line" democrat.

I challenged you to debate on this healthcare issue.

You refuse. 'nuff said.

[Joe Fields]

52. dupe

[timtom]

35. I'm with you all the way on this.

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. WAR IS PEACE. FREEDOM IS SLAVERY. IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.

FAILURE IS SUCCESS

[Joe Fields]

40. I see you're hip to it. Sad that SOOOOO many other "progressives" aren't.

[ecstatic]

41. Within the past day or so, I finally understand why SP is the only real answer

I tried to go to a doctor who did not even accept Blue Cross Blue Shield. He also charges 3 to 5 times more than other doctors for the same procedure. I was advised to get another insurance on top of what I already have (of course, I have a pre-existing condition which makes it tricky). A public option would not help with situations like that, as I'm sure a public option wouldn't allow me to go to the most expensive doctor, nor would that doctor accept the PO in the first place (many don't accept Medicaid either). Single payer would be the only way to make sure every person can go to the doctor of their choosing without having to worry about their insurance not being accepted. Now whether or not it would discourage people from going into medicine is a different story....

That being said, I guess I still support the Public Option as the "foot in the door" strategy. I really do hope the PO puts the other companies out of business!

[Cleita]

47. If the public option is an extension of Medicare, you could go to the

doctor of your choosing and not worry about being denied or canceled, but I can't see that on the horizon. The insurance companies have poisoned the well for their profit margin.

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. Doesn't surprise me in the least

:eyes:

[Joe Fields]

53. will you ever get a clue?

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. I believe I have many more clues about the legislative process than you do

[Joe Fields]

65. I'm sure you "believe" that.

That is why I'm laughing.

But hey, if you want a chance to prove it, I'll debate you on the issues, straight up. No snarkiness.

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. A debate isn't necessary

And would be a huge waste of time. I believe in action, you apparently would rather play keyboard commando.

I'm off to a rally and then a forum. Enjoy your evening. :hi:

[Joe Fields]

72. You should know all about huge wastes of time.

As much time as you spend here. Where do you ever find the time to teach?

[Cleita]

45. Even if it doesn't, if the final legislation is what Max Baucus's committee

has presented to us, it's going to fail in a big way anyway and bring the Democrats down with it, but maybe that's what the Republicans want.

[inna]

58. kill this monstrosity and start over next yeat with single payer resulting

in Universal Health Care for all Americans. it's way overdue.

[RagAss]

61. next year would be our last chance. The GOP will have the House in 2010.

[sendero]

60. If the final bill..

.... doesn't have a strong public option, it is worse than nothing. It is as simple as that.

[Vinca]

62. A bill that serves us up to big insurance on a solid gold platter

is worse than no bill at all. I don't understand why it has to be so complicated. Just open up Medicare and be done with it.

[inna]

64. Obama and Senate Democrats have been incredibly disappointing on this.

i don't think i've ever been so disillusioned by political process.

[Joe Fields]

73. Just heard that Baucus and Dodd will do the negotiating.

People, whether you want to believe it, or not, the FIX is in.

[ProSense]

75. Dodd took over the committee from Kennedy and negotiated the HELP bill's passage.

Evidently, Dodd's hero status is selective.

[cynatnite]

78. You wanted all your "must-haves" immediately?

I must be an idiot because I figured this was a process that would take time to evolve. Get the beginnings of reform passed and signed now. Over time it evolves and changes to fit the needs of the population. That's what happened with Medicare. It took time for Medicare to become what it is today and I expect it will be the same for HCR.