Yeah RIght! If ALL Students had GUNS they Coulda Shot the MuthaFucker to DEATH

[KoKo]

before he killed so many.

Give me a BREAK!

So do we need "Metal Detectors" and which "BUSHIE CRIME FAMILY COMPANY" on the LONG LIST...would THAT Policy Benefit?

Huh?

Note to Parents: "Along with soap, sheets and towels...be sure to send your Son and Daughter off with a loaded handgun with "repeater pack" so they can knock off a CROWD if they are "threatened."

Yeah..who would do this?

[Balbus]

1. What?

[robcon]

2. I would allow guns on campus.

Most people would not carry them. But, IMO, some of the 32 dead would not be dead.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

7. More people would be dead in the long run, out of stupid arguments

and God knows what else.

[Irreverend IX]

18. Argue with this:

http://www.ohioccw.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3004&Itemid=67

http://emp.byui.edu/DavisR/202/ConcealedCarryPreventsViolentCrime.htm

The most comprehensive studies done to date clearly show that permissive CCW laws help decrease violent crime. The idea that dozens of people will crossfire and kill each other in response to a threat is absurd; I challenge anyone who makes that assertion. When concealed carry is possible, only 1% of people at most will do it, but even that small minority acts as a powerful deterrent to crooks and just one person with a concealed gun could have stopped the Virginia massacre cold. A police officer posting in the Gungeon just agreed that concealed carry is the best way to stop psychotic shooters in their tracks.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

22. Wow. The impartiality of those links is STUNNING! And...

On the link from the organization whose purpose is to campaign for CCW laws: numbers seem rather slim, and do we have data from 2005 onwards?

On the link from the Mormon equivalent of Bob Jones: It's just a bunch of opinion, too painful and long to read. I did glimpse the old fallacy that dictatorships grab guns. Yep, like Saddam did. Ooops...

[Irreverend IX]

27. What's your problem with the University of Chicago?

That's where the Lott study came from, and Illinois is one of the most anti-gun states. How about the University of Florida? Their criminologist Gary Kleck, who concluded that there are about 1.7 million defensive gun uses per year, self-identifies as a liberal Democrat. And I hope you're aware that federal agencies take a long time to compile data. Try finding census data or any other national metrics from 2006 and you're not going to have much luck.

Also, Saddam grabbed plenty of guns. Before 2002, only Ba'ath party members were allowed weapons. Once it became clear the US was going to invade he distributed his stock of AKs, RPGs and ammo to the public to fuel the domestic insurgency.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

36. I can't believe you wrote this subject line. Do you think everybody here is an idiot?

About Mr. John Lott, the National Academy of Science seems to have found issue with his studies: http://books.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=10881

Have a link for that "only Ba'ath" thing?

[Irreverend IX]

53. I don't know what your point is...

About the subject line. The studies I cited didn't come from BYU, just the paper that referenced them. I looked at that book you linked:

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10881&page=120

But I didn't see much debunking going on. The book states that the question of CCW laws and violence boils down to the empirical question of whether the benefits outweigh the costs, which is a convenient non-answer. Even the lowest estimates of defensive gun uses put them high, high above the number of yearly gun murders.

Saddam:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/20/international/middleeast/20SECU.html

"Mr. Hussein, never one to tolerate competition, forbade private citizens to carry weapons, effectively outlawing the security industry."

Page requires registration, unfortunately. There seem to be conflicting accounts regarding this; others say that gun ownership was common under Saddam's reign. I've seen other stories that discuss a big rash of gun purchasing before the US invasion, which suggests to me that Iraq was not nearly so saturated with guns before the war.

[ToeBot]

52. Mostly just the Department of Economics, it's just so.....eww, Republican. n/t

[uppityperson]

26. Do law enforcement officers, trained in dealing with crisis situations, ever shoot wrongly?

Do they ever make mistakes and shoot someone they shouldn't have? I don't think a bunch of people, even those who know how to shoot, are never capable of over reacting in a chaotic situation and making it worse.

[Irreverend IX]

30. They do it a lot more often than civilian shooters.

Civilians who shoot do it because they have a strong interest in guns, and often spend a lot of time training and preparing for self-defense situations. Most cops don't have such a strong interest in guns; to them a firearm is just another heavy piece of equipment they carry on the job.

Contrary to what you might believe, cops don't have magical powers of marksmanship that surpass anything a civilian could achieve. I've watched them shoot at ranges, and while there's a small core of experts most are barely above the beginner level. They're only required to practice twice a year, after all. Civilian shooters also know that they will be severely punished for an unjustified shooting, so they exercise a lot more restraint than guys who get off with a week of "administrative leave" after mistakenly capping an innocent person.

[burrowowl]

42. What is a handgun against an automatic weapon?

Why are automatic rifles and hand submachine guns available in this country on the open market?
In the old days we had sirens, I think they should be brought back with people informed of what to do according to number and tone of siren.

[Irreverend IX]

49. Uh... they haven't been on the "open market" since 1937.

Owning a fully-automatic weapon requires federal permission. You need to pass an extremely strict background check (people have been DQed for parking tickets) to get a license to own full-autos, and once you have it you can expect to pay $10k and up to buy a real machine gun.

[hedgehog]

48. So, the best arguement against gun control is that we all need to carry guns to protect

ourselves from the other people who are carrying guns?

"We have met the enemy, and he is us."

Walt Kelly - "Pogo"

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. They could just shoot each other at fraternity parties instead

[BlooInBloo]

23. Is there ANY number of deaths over time as a result that would make you change your mind?

Just wondering.

[KoKo]

31. You think you coulda gotten your gun out of your laundry basket or under

your pile of "stuff" in your dorm in time to blow away this shooter? Would you be expecting some guy to come in to your Dorm Room or Classroom in the morning and just blow dozens away?

Maybe if you were always walking to the campus library or student activities building late at night you might think to arm yourself. But, would you have had your gun ready at the time this took place?

:shrug:

[BlooInBloo]

40. Hm. I meant to be addressing the I-want-more-guns-on-campus guy...

... Possibly that misfired. If so, my apologies.

[springhill]

63. No......

but accumatively, I bet there would be a lot more shootings and killings. I wouldn't even send my child to college if they allowed students to have guns. I would be scared to death.

[MissB]

3. I'm sure some parents will think that is a fine idea.

Holy hell.

[Taverner]

6. I'm all for rescinding existing gun laws

But criminy! Crossfire would be the the biggest killer in that situation...

[rasputin1952]

4. Someone should have started the move to take him out...

there is no way this guy could kill all of those people w/o some complicity by the victims. They shoould have tossed things at him, jumped him, any damn thing to get him off trarget, then jump him and pound him into the ground so he couldn't harm anyopne else. 29 people...and no one fought back??? I can't see that.

[ComerPerro]

13. That's easy for you to say. But throwing something at him is a good way to get shot

[Reverend_Smitty]

17. exactly...

I know that if someone had a gun pointed in my general direction, the last thing I would do is throw a book at him...I mean who knows if I didn't do anything I could still get killed, but the last thing I want to do in that situation is draw unnecessary attention to myself. There's really no good thing to do in that situation

[rasputin1952]

41. If the gun is pointred at you, you had better hope that someone

on the other side of the romm throws a desk a book, something. He had already shot the instructor, you know he will shoot again. Save as many as you can.

[rasputin1952]

20. I understand what you are saying, but I have been in many a

life threatening situation. Maybe it is because I spent so long in the Army, or maybe because I can think on my feet, I am saying that that many people should not have been killed, none would have been ideal, but you have to instantaneously think of the odds...can you save most, at the expense of
a few?

What I am saying is that there are times when you rise to the occasion and do what you have to do.

[ileus]

60. Not throwing was a good way to get shot also...

[ComerPerro]

62. must be nice, having such absolute moral clarity at all times like you do

[KoKo]

16. Yeah...you are an 18 year old and cramming for test...and you figure some guy

with a gun with a cartridge that could mow everyone down is going to burst in your room unexpected and shoot your brains out. Like yeah...you had time to get the gun your Parents gave you for your "16th Birthday" from under your pile of dirty laundry or under your pile of class notes or sneakers under the bed and you have TIME to shoot BACK....

Give me a break...:-(

Who expects to attend college and have a Psycho break into your room or classroom and give you time to be prepared to ATTACK BACK!

Are you suggesting we give our kids a "semester" at Blackwater here in NC so they know how to be QUICK and be ARMED AT ALL TIMES agains psychopaths as a Graduation Present from High School? :eyes:

[rasputin1952]

21. No, I am not saying that students should be armed...

nor am I saying that this was completely preventable, what I am saying is that reactions other than fear and submission are available.

When this guy was reloading, or when he was aiming at a different target, people can manuever and get this guy. To just lay on the floor and get shot, is not my cup of tea, if I'm going down, I'm going down fighting.

There were options other than just accepting getting shot, it appears those options were not taken.

This is a horrible event, and I am not trying to sound like John Wayne, but i know that if I can do something to stop the carnage, I'm going to do it, if I get shot fighting back, so be it, but it could have saved lives, and that is what counts.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

24. Some people a few cards short of a full deck are. Right here. Look around.

BTW, do we know exactly what kind of hardware the shooter was packing?

[rasputin1952]

35. So far it appears to be two handguns a 9mm and a .22 cal

the 9mm probably held 14 rounds, perhaps an extra in the chamber. I haven't heard what the .22 was, could have been a semi-auto, could have beena revolver. But I do know that both would need to be reloaded, and that takes two hands.

The other point of contention is that if he is firing at me, from his L side, someone on the R side could have jumped him. Most likely, others would have joined in and subdued this guy.

This is not some kind of hero thing, it is survival. Far fewer wopuld have died or been injured if at least one person was thinking on his/her feet.

I admit that this would have been a horrendous shock, but the shock should only last a second of two, after that, someone could have acted, doing anything possible to divert the shooter from targets. This is what I would have done, I cannot speak for anyone else, but I was also trained to react, and react quickly. It might have cost me my life or an injury, but something wouold have been done to save others, and that is the point of reaction to danger...save as many as you can.

[ends_dont_justify]

56. Some people also lack courage...if you can't fight back during a shooting

How can you possibly take back this country? Lots of talk...no action. That's the epitome of DU...don't chastise this person for saying people should have fought back. I would have. And you know what? If I died...I probably would have anyway, if I was in the same presence. Atleast I wouldn't die a coward. This is the same mentality as saying 6 year olds should be cuffed for our security.

On Edit: You know...I really gotta clarify myself here too, before I start a flame fest. I am very empassioned on this topic for ONE reason. The FACULTY didn't care about saving lives. The POLICE didn't care about saving lives. And the students not fighting back ALSO meant THEY didn't care their friends near them were being shot up. People died in FIRING SQUAD styled executions...not a single person stood up so the person next to them didn't have to get shot? They didn't care that their friends were getting shot up?

The people who barred the door so he couldn't get back in? They DID fight back...I know some people fought back. But I'm just getting at, the sheer degree of selfishness it takes that this person was allowed to kill as many as he did means that many people did NOT care their peers were dying...this is wrong in so many degrees. My heart goes out to every victim, and my heart goes out to a country lacking courage and replacing it with showiness and big, 'scary' words instead of DOING a damn thing to help itself.

America has become just another third world country, welcome to the new era.

[KoKo]

25. You'd have to be there, though to judge how you would react.

As I tried to explain...kids in College don't see themselves as needing to be looking over their shoulders or fully prepared when a Psycho attacks.

Since we don't know the sitution how can we know how we would react if it was us? The reports are that the guy shot in the dorm and killed many and then moved across campus to attack those in the classroom.

Who would be expected to be prepared to tackle a crazy who is shooting rapid fire? You only see hero's in those crap movies they produce. It's not real life when something comes up so unexpectedly.

Sometimes ...there just isn't time for "heroics." That's what I'm saying. The shooter sounds psycho and premeditated this because he shot one group and then two hours later shoots another group. This guy knew what he was doing and wasn't nervous about it. You don't have much chance against that kind of person.

[rasputin1952]

37. In order for him to kill and wound that many people...

the only reaction was fear and panic....this is understandable, but not the only reactions possible.

A couple of years ago, i walked into the local convenience store and was shot at, I tackled the guy, got the gun and put it against his eye while he was on the ground. I'm no hero, but I do not wish to die at the hands of a lunatic either. I wholeheartedly admit that i was trained for quick reaction to bad situations..I firmly believe that trying to talk ones way out of a situation is the best method in situations like this, but I refuse to go down w/o a fight. If he would have killed one, and that is one too many, and was taken on, he might have gotten a couple more, but he was confined in a classroom, from what I understand, and taking him lout would have been realtivelyt easy, throw books, desks anything, but don't allow him to just gun you down.

Like I said before, I'm no hero, but I can't let death take so many w/o a fight. I might well have lost, but i would have tried.

[KoKo]

43. I fear for my life when I go into my local "convenience stores." But the comparison

just isn't the same. One expects a certain amount of security on a college campus...particularly in your Dorm Room or Classroom. Having an armed psycho with a mission barging in unexpectedly might not have allowed any "rambo types or heroes to have been able to gather themselves together in time...before their head was blown off. :shrug:

[rasputin1952]

45. I cannot speak for anyone else...

I can only post what I would have done. If my movement would have caused my death/injury, at the same time, most likely someone on the other side would have moved as well. People do things like that.

Believe me, I understand completely how fear and panic can work, and I'm not trying to say I'm some kind of "Rambo", I can say that i would have reacted differently, regardless of the cost to me, it might have changed things. I can tell you this, survivors in that room, if there are any, will wonder for a long time, when the adrenaline wears off, just how action could have changed things. It is human nature to say, "I could have done this, or I could have done that", I just hope they all get over this horror as time permits for each individual.

[hedgehog]

47. How do you know that that's not what happened?

People were turning over desks and moving. It may be a case that even a heavy German textbook is not much of a defense against a gun.

[rasputin1952]

50. It might have, from what i've heard from some of those in

the classroom, panic was in the air.

I would like to think that someone acted, perhaps over the next few days as this gets sorted out, we will find out that someone, or several did react to disable the gunman.

I cannot tell you how much I wish this whole never happened; and it is not like a movie, where it all turns out in the ned...it is a real tragedy, not just in loss of life, but in the way the college responded to the threat, and the way the police waited to go in. There is something wrong when the cops hear gunshots and screams and yet stand on the sidewalk...:(

[oldhippie]

29. Sorry, Ras, but 98% of the people.........

.... are sheep.

[KoKo]

32. Are you emplying that they should become Wolves with Weapons?

Would that have protected them against this surprise attack on a Tuesday Morning in their Dorm Room or Classroom? :shrug:

[rasputin1952]

38. But the 2% of us that could be shepards, owe it to the sheep

to protect them....:)

[KoKo]

44. lol's....we know who to call in case a "gun fight" breaks out on DU...

You are DA Man or women or whoever.....

[rasputin1952]

46. LOL...I'm just a guy that has been on the receiving end of

fire, I'm no hero, but I'm no chump either...:) i can't see myself dying for nothing, and I don't want to die, but fear cannot control the situation, only action can. Fear and trembling knees comes later, as does some xanax if you survive the ordeal...:D

Who knows if my way would have worked, but no one is going to walk up to me and put a bullet in me w/o a fight.

[maxsolomon]

5. i suggest that only WOMEN be allowed to carry guns

they're MUCH less likely to go postal, and they're usually the targets.

so, to recap my plan: ban handguns for men.

half :eyes:, half :sarcasm:, half serious.

[treestar]

8. Not as insane as it sounds, actually.

Now if every country had a female president, too, it would probably lower the level of bellicosity. Granted there were the Amazons, etc., but they might have been fighting against men.

[Maddy McCall]

34. College-age women with guns?

I disagree. They're just as apt to go postal, if not more so.

I deal with these kids every day. NONE of them should be carrying guns on campuses.

[maxsolomon]

59. if they're just as apt to go postal, why don't they?

statistically, they don't.

[KG]

9. yes, that was amongst some of the 'wisdom' imparted by the fetishists.

:eyes:

[Deja Q]

10. They'd all have killed each other...

So who'd be left to pay all those student loans?

[sendero]

11. I don't think..

... the students should be armed. But the teachers and administrators that take the proper training and wish to be, damn straight.

[Nikia]

12. At my college, we weren't allowed to have guns on campus

Actually you could, but you had to have it locked at a special place and sign it out for if you were going off campus to a shooting range or hunting.

[bdamomma]

14. I was just listening to C Span calls are being accepted for

Virginia Tech shootings and someone did call for students to carry arms to school with them, that is suicide right there. We have a epidemic in the country with a love of guns, sorry, I do believe they should have more stronger laws for guns, when you see a father giving his 2 year old a semi automatic to hold you know something is not right. It is time to stop the violence and get substantial and effective gun control, or are we becoming the wild west?

[KoKo]

19. See Post #16 in answer to those Idiots who Call into C-Span many of them repeaters

who get past the rules because C-Span just Loves their BASE...

[NashVegas]

28. Polytech School Students

I used to work not far from RPI, in Troy, NY.

These kids know how to build pipe bombs, it's not even a challenge for them. It could have been far, far worse, actually.

[KoKo]

33. How does knowledge of building a "pipe bomb" help someone in this situation?

I didn't get what you meant. And, I know RPI...and they have clever kids. :D

[NashVegas]

58. I'm Just Saying

It's useless to blame guns, or pre-emptively pick a fight with gun advocates.

[AnnieBW]

39. Improve the suicide hotlines first

Because if you're going to allow guns on campus, there's going to be a lot more kids blowing their own brains out if they flunk a class.

[rodeodance]

51. a caller on Rachel M. talk show said the same thing tonight. She put that

idea down fast.

[Autobot77]

54. Better yet

If the students had grenades or a rocket launcher then they could've killed him on the spot before he got the chance to fire a shot. :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[rasputin1952]

57. Although you used the sarcasm smilies, you bring up an

excellent point.

Used to be argue first; fistfight second; knives, chains, blackjacks, etc; and then guns.

The problem is, these things escalate w/each perceived threat. If "that guy has a knife", someone gets a gun. Arms races are not limited to nations, neighborhoods have them too.

I don't think guns should be on campus, and I believe that police should be dispatched immediately when there is a situation like this. I also think that the police should be pro-active, and not necessarily await 'orders'. If the cops on the scene would have gone in while hearing the shooting and the screams, more might have survived.

I think the worst aspect of this is that this guy had a 2 hour leeway after the first killings, and then entered the classrooms. Lockdown should have been immediate, all doors closed and locked throughout the campus. A search of the grounds would have produced this guy, and a great tragedy could have been avoided. There is plenty of blame to go around, the administration at the college, the faculty, (if they knew of the initial murders, and I find it difficult to believe this would not have been all over the campus in milliseconds) and the responding police.

As near as I can figure from what I've heard, no one was pro-active in finding this guy, yet a few on campus knew him. This entire incident was handled horribly, and many should feel greatly the pain of failure.

[PreacherCasey]

55. I wonder what would have happened to the kid from UCLA who had the shit tazed out of him

if he were carrying a concealed weapon.

[Xenotime]

61. People who say students should have carried are assuming they aim.

[Richard Steele]

64. Well, they certainly could have. You'de have to be insane to deny that.

So what exactly are you saying here?

[kwolf68]

65. If more people had guns

Maybe the shooter takes them out first and then has even more guns and ammo to kill even more people.

See, that conjecture game can be played from this side as well.