Why do people think that politicians/famous people who speak dissent are killed by staged accidents?

[Deja Q]

Dennis Kucinich didn't die in a clever accident.

Never mind half of DU would have been locked up somewhere by now or killed in a mass-accident... :eyes:

And if Michael Moore is still roaming around with the deer and antelope and claiming he'll be fed to the lions for what he says, that's proof enough the very notion of a conspiracy theory against "anyone against the system" is utter GARBAGE.

So get a grip. There is no magical conspiracy.

Or if you can convince me of otherwise...




Edited: Qualifiers in subject line.

[cali]

1. it'd read better if you wrote: why do people think that

celebrity and politician dissenters are killed in staged accidents.

[tekisui]

2. I don't think there is any conspiracy to kill those who speak

truth to power. I do think, however, that there are very powerful forces that defend the status quo--at all costs. These entities, IMO, are not above destroying someone who goes from the "ability to speak truth to power stage" to "becoming powerful stage". That is where all bets are off. Kucinich, Micheal Moore and DU have not yet come close to the stage of effectively challenging or changing the status quo.

[taterguy]

3. Explain why only the left-leaning members of Skynyrd were killed in the crash

If Ronnie Van Zandt didn't die in 1977 then Ronnie Raygun never could have gotten the good old boys on his side in 1980

[notesdev]

4. Because often enough

such events are awfully convenient for the establishment.

Does anyone here believe that a sufficiently-politically-connected person could not get away with murder in this country today?

[lunatica]

5. Maybe you need to convince others that there are no conspiracies

magical or otherwise rather than demanding everyone else convince you when it's obvious no amount of facts will confuse you since you've already made up your mind.

[Gman2]

6. No, but there is a conspiracy to kill the poor, ill and weak.

[AllentownJake]

13. No conspiracy

It is simply profitable to do so. If you make something profitable people will do it.

[Kaleko]

25. Hello?

Businessmen only get together for one reason
and that is to conspire against the general public!

- Adam Smith, 1723 to 1790

(Adam Smith is widely cited as the father of modern economics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith).

[Igel]

31. Nope.

Such utterances make us feel good because they implicitly assume we're important.

In Adam Smith's case, if he actualy said it, he's calling a conspiracy what the conspirators wouldn't. It's polemic, not an attempt at actual description.

As soon as you realize that in most cases businessmen really and honestly do not conspire against you because they really and honestly don't care whether you live or die--just whether you buy their product or services or not--then life is a lot simpler, a lot easier.

Really. You're not that important. I'm not that important. My 5-year-old has trouble believing that the world pre-existed his awareness of it. By the time he's 13, I expect him to have the concept down pat. By the time he's 18 I expect him to have accepted that when he's gone the world will go on and barely note his birth or passing--and if it notes either, it's probably a bit more likely to be because he did something awful than because he did something good. And, in the long run, even Hitler or Stalin really doesn't matter: The carbon in our bodies will be absorbed by an expanding sun, absurdly long after the last human that could possibly care about either is long dead.

Here's my current "top 3" list of why people fail to apply this kind of thinking.

1. Part of the "Wellstone was killed as part of a conspiracy" is asserting that he, and therefore vicariously we, are important. Each of us tends to be the most important person in our lives, so obviously others must think so, right?

2. Part of it is saying we're superior: We have knowledge hidden from the masses, and that means we're wiser and more enlightened. (1) and (2) can be countered by a bit of humility and critical thinking.

3. Part of it is simple pattern finding where there is no pattern--we humans are great at that game. Better to find spurious patterns than to overlook equally subtle actual patterns when you're keeping watch in the savannah. Running from a shadow is a better survival strategy than standing still until the lion's got its teeth in your neck and you're absolutely, positively sure that it is, indeed, a lion. (3) can be countered by critical thinking and a moment's reflection--something we can usually afford these days since very seldom do we actually run a real risk of finding lion teeth embedded in our necks.


Please note that in my more cynical days I also find that this accounts for minor things like religion and other belief systems, as well.

[Kaleko]

35. Using your own logic,

consider the question of whether conspiracies routinely take place from a purely business perspective.

Ask yourself what is most important to businesspeople who fully intend to stay in business?

Answer: Making a profit and thus furthering one's power and gain influence to make even more profits.

Q: Who and what is exploitable as a resource for my/our own, strictly personal gain, never mind social impact?

A: Workers, consumers, and if you think big enough, entire countries are our targets for business purposes.

Q: How do we eliminate competition for the resources we are going to exploit?
And equally important, how do we eliminate anyone who stands in the way of our conducting business as we see fit?

A: By continuously plotting (conspiring) to invent schemes that accomplish our goals without getting caught in a legal quagmire. Legal "traps" must be eliminated. What are think tanks and lobbyists for, after all?

In real life, conspiracies are as ubiquitous as engine grease. But, of course, the CIA has told Americans for decades that conspiracies at the highest level of government are a figment of the fevered imaginations of fools who cannot see straight. Good job, well done!

How come that people in countries outside the USA simply laugh when you tell them that many Americans still believe they haven't been victims of major conspiracies?

*edit - typo.

[Taitertots]

37. Smith was so far ahead of his time

I just got the theory of moral sentiments and I'm itching to get some time to read it.

We used his work in my economics of religion, crime, and marriage class.

By now I think it is safe to call him the grandfather of modern economics.

[rucky]

7. You must be bored. n/t

[CrispyQ]

8. When you have the media on your side, you rarely need resort to violence.

The media completely marginalized Kucinich.

"He looks like an elf."
"Oh, how cute! He carries a pocket Constitution!"
"He's vegan."
"Department of Peace? What a silly idea!"

As for Moore, he fires up the opposition's base. They hate him - almost as much as they hate Obama. Moore puts out a film criticizing the health insurance industry & even though many of the people who have been screwed by this industry are republican voters, they will discredit his message just because it's Moore. The PTB love that.

I don't always agree with the 'small plane conspiracy club,' but the Wellstone accident sticks, as do the assassinations of the Kennedy's & King.

[HughBeaumont]

28. ++1.

All I know is, it sure ain't Republican politicians either dying in freak fiery plane crashes and assassinations or marginalized by the corporate media as "COMM'NISTS!"

[busybl]

38. or mysterious one car crashes

[fascisthunter]

9. Michael Moore has brought out the worst in you

very interesting

[nashville_brook]

15. noticed that too.

[omega minimo]

17. bizarre stuff

[soryang]

10. A conspiracy theory against "anyone against the system?"

What a straw man argument. Conspiracy is empirical, not a generalization.

[Juche]

11. People did try to kill Kucinich

He refused to sell control of the utilities to a private company, and the mafia put a hit on him.

http://www.freetimes.com/stories/15/9/the-mafia-plot-to-kill-dennis-kucinich


Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Gore Vidal, David Ray Griffin, Naomi Klein, Naomi Wolf, etc are all still walking around. So I don't think we have secret assassination squads here going after leftists.

However I really don't know about the MLK assassination. A civil suit jury found that the assassination was actually a conspiracy involving government agencies back in 1999. So I wouldn't write off the MLK assassination out of hand.

http://www.amazon.com/Act-State-Execution-Martin-Luther/dp/1859846955

[Don Caballero]

18. Nice try throwing David Ray Griffin in there

with real respected people. Griffin is a crazy conspiracy theorist.

[Juche]

36. He isn't respected?

Maybe not by pseudoskeptics, but many other people enjoy his stuff. Iran Contra was a conspiracy theory once.

Point is, if there were secret assassination squads, people like Griffin would be dead.

[librechik]

12. because "cui bono" is a wired-in instinct

and because we have had too many generations where powerful criminals are not investigated and prosecuted for their crimes. When we don't know the truth and we don't get justice, the people start thinking they're being played.

And they are. Even if each individual case MIGHT have a logical explanation. If the people we suspect of playing us give us another "found Atta's passport on the rubble" story, we simply scoff.

And why would they be afraid of Kucinich? He's not on anyone's "power" list, not like Wellstone was, for example.

[NashVegas]

14. Because Umbrella Tips Are In Short Supply These Days

[omega minimo]

16. How old are you?

[TheKentuckian]

19. Kucinich isn't a threat so they marginalize him and make him a punchingbag/joke

People with juice are the only ones worth zilching out.

[Bjorn Against]

20. Can you link to even one person that has seriously made this argument?

No one that I am aware of has argued that all famous people who speak out against the system are killed. Your post is a strawman.

[yurbud]

21. there are other ways to neuter people now: ridicule (like Howard Dean) or black out

(like Dennis Kucinich or Ron Paul)

I think killing is now reserved for when they are in a hurry or when the Bushies have won some victory and want to celebrate.

[yurbud]

22. How many right wing politicians and movement leaders were killed in the 60s?

and the only ones I can think of who had attempts on their lives were in the way of bigger dogs waiting in the wings: George Wallace could have stolen victory from Nixon; Gerald Ford's VP was Nelson Rockefeller, so Rockefeller could have made it to the White House like Ford, without being elected VP OR president; and Ronald Reagan had GW Bush waiting in the wings, and arguably, the attempt debilitated Reagan enough that Papa Bush had a free hand to run his rogue foreign policy.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

23. Paranoia.

Formal thought disorder.

[mamaleah]

24. It helps with the personal martydom and makes the cause seem even greater.

If you believe the boogieman (or apparently G Men...) are out to kill those you support, you feel like your cause is all the more right.

[yodoobo]

26. We all die by something 1 out of 22 will die by accident.

1 in 22 of us will die by an accident. When you factor in all the famous and important people, thats quite a regular stream of accident deaths

Add in the fact that only those not-killed can take part in the conversations about those who do die by accident...well conspiracies theories are a certainty.



http://www.nsc.org/research/odds.aspx

[Bjorn Against]

27. Do you think Martin Luther King's death was an accident? How about Malcolm X?

Gandhi? Harvey Milk? JFK? Robert F Kennedy? I am not suggesting every one of these deaths was part of a massive conspiracy, but they were certainly not accidents. We know that many civil rights leaders have been murdered and it would not be a stretch to believe that some of the accidents that killed others were not really accidents. That being said the OP is a strawman because nobody has suggested that everyone who speaks dissent will end up dead.

[yodoobo]

29. speaking of strawmen

We're talking about accidents. Not murders.


Every single leader you know today will be dead in 100 years. 1 out of 22 of them will die by tragic accident.

Every single one that dies by accident will the subject of conspiracy theory.

Of the 4.54% that do die by accident, how many of THOSE were the result of a deep dark conspiracy?? Well that's the magic question, but it would be silly to believe it to be 100%.

[Bjorn Against]

30. Who said anything about 100%?

I certainly never claimed that civil rights leaders don't get killed in accidents, I simply pointed out that several of them have been murdered and then suggested that it is not a stretch to believe that not every accident was really an accident. How is that a strawman?

What is a strawman is your suggestion that I believe 100% of those who die in accidents were really murdered, no one ever made that claim you put that number into my mouth. I certainly believe some civil rights leaders will die in accidents, that doesn't mean that I am going to believe that everything in which the official cause of death is an accident is really an accident.

I never said anything about a "deep dark conspiracy" and I am not going to give you a percentage because there is no way of knowing such a percentage, just as there is no way for you to prove that a person was not murdered just because some people do die in legitimate accidents.

[yodoobo]

32. Well this thread isn't about you.

You seem to believe that I was talking about your feelings and suspicions. Rest easy - I wasn't.

100% of the accidents that fell leaders are attributed by SOMEONE to be a deep dark conspiracy. Every single one without exception.

Logic and statistics tells us that's not true.

[Bjorn Against]

34. I agree that someone or other will suspect something when a leader dies...

This is a direct result of the fact that too many leaders have been murdered in the past and people are worried about it happening again. Yes there will be ridiculous theories that come out in any high-profile death, but I think it is just as ridiculous to automatically rule out foul play before there is any sort of investigation and people often seem far too eager to do that. There are some conspiracy theorists who drive me crazy because they are completely delusional, but the people who insist there is no such thing as a conspiracy are every bit as delusional as the most whacked out conspiracy theorist. People need to look at the facts on a case by case basis and not automatically jump to conclusions whether it is the conclusion that there was a vast conspiracy or the conclusion that the powerful would never conspire to commit a crime.

[TexasObserver]

33. If we look at the politicians who have died in airplane crashes the past 40 years or so.

And if we divide them by Democrat or Republican, do you suppose we will see the expected 50-50 division that would exist under your assumptions? Or do we see many more Democrats than Republicans?