Michael Moore: For Those of You on Your Way to Church This Morning...

[deminks]

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/10/4/789526/-For-Those-of-You-on-Your-Way-to-Church-This-Morning...

I'd like to have a word with those of you who call yourselves Christians (Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Bill Maherists, etc. can read along, too, as much of what I have to say, I'm sure, can be applied to your own spiritual/ethical values).

In my new film I speak for the first time in one of my movies about my own spiritual beliefs. I have always believed that one's religious leanings are deeply personal and should be kept private. After all, we've heard enough yammerin' in the past three decades about how one should "behave," and I have to say I'm pretty burned out on pieties and platitudes considering we are a violent nation who invades other countries and punishes our own for having the audacity to fall on hard times.

(snip)

Amidst all the Wall Street bad guys and corrupt members of Congress exposed in "Capitalism: A Love Story," I pose a simple question in the movie: "Is capitalism a sin?" I go on to ask, "Would Jesus be a capitalist?" Would he belong to a hedge fund? Would he sell short? Would he approve of a system that has allowed the richest 1% to have more financial wealth than the 95% under them combined?

(snip)

When you are in church this morning, please think about this. I am asking you to allow your "better angels" to come forward. And if you are among the millions of Americans who are struggling to make it from week to week, please know that I promise to do what I can to stop this evil -- and I hope you'll join me in not giving up until everyone has a seat at the table.

(end snips)

Well said, Michael.

[Fumesucker]

1. "Would Jesus be a capitalist?" Would he belong to a hedge fund? Would he sell short?

Good questions..

Too bad few Americans have the guts or the intellectual honesty to answer them.

[mmonk]

2. "Bill Maherists"

:spray:

[POAS]

5. None dare call him Messiah!

mmonk?

Maherist Monk?

Had to ask!

[mmonk]

7. Lol. No.

I thought it had humor.

[POAS]

11. If you mean Moore's comment I agree...

considering Maher's often virulent anti-religious stances.

Carry on Maherist Monk..... :evilgrin:

[mmonk]

14. yep.

Moore was saying everyone :) Religious and non religious.

[omega minimo]

33. Bill Maherasochists.

:thumbsdown:

[dccrossman]

3. K&R

:kick:

[WinkyDink]

4. Trust me; the comeback is always, "I give PLENTY to charity!" They skipped Dickens in school.

[POAS]

6. I rather think they view

Dickens' and Orwell's books as narratives on how to get away with evil rather than warnings against the evil.

[zeemike]

48. I think you are right....n/t

[defendandprotect]

63. Think you are right! "How to" writings . . . . !!

[mmonk]

9. Soon, every corner of America will have the feel of a Dickens novel.

[taggline]

55. Well Said...very well said...

[1776Forever]

13. Oh did you hit a nail on the head with that remark! That is what my Repub Sister told my chronically

ill son when we needed money to help us out with his medical bills. He was in his late 30's at the time and just lost his business to 2 hurricanes in FL when he came down with Progressive MS. She had loads of money but told us "I give to charities and let them take care of their needs." OK - but this is your nephew. Oh well some of us humans never get it. Oh and she and her husband go to church regularly and I am sure "pay" for their salvation.

:grouphug:

[Fire1]

46. HA!! Will they be in for a surprise. n/t

[Mariana]

77. Yeah, they fill up the collection plates and call that charity.

As if.

I realize that some churches actually perform some honest good works with a portion of the money they receive.

[Stevenmarc]

82. Charity isn't charity when it comes with a healthy dose of indoctrination

[democracy1st]

8. K & R

[Vinca]

10. Would Jesus be in favor of single-payer or private insurance companies?

[laconicsax]

52. I think he'd be in favor of faith-healing and anointing with oil.

[Deja Q]

12. Another clandestine advert for his new movie. Look up the business concept "The Relationship Era".

It's just business.

That's all it is.

To him.

Remember that.

[mmonk]

15. I don't think Moore has ever been against someone receiving money

for their work.

[corkhead]

16. your opinion of michael moore is duly noted

how many moore threads have you pissed on this morning anyway?

:eyes:

[Overseas]

24. Not clandestine. Not purely commercial. He is asking very relevant questions

in a country whose citizens consider themselves religious-- is this okay with you and your soul?

Sure, he wants more of us to see his movie-- no hidden agenda, it's more like "Duh;" we've all seen him everywhere promoting his movie--

but in making his movie he also wanted to pose some questions of his fellow citizens-- we could have a second bill of rights, but instead we have the top 1% owning more financial wealth than the bottom 95% combined. How does that square with your moral and spiritual values?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6674229/Citigroup-Mar-5-2006-Plutonomy-Report-Part-2

[Kajsa]

25. You are determined to

bash Michael Moore 24/7 aren't you?

What have you contributed here besides
vitriol?

[gleaner]

41. What is it to you?

Instead of focusing your judgments, which seem faulty to me on Michal Moore, have you taken a good look at yourself? Do you help people less fortunate than you are with your money, time or by trying to show the world at large what they have to live through so that the rich can stomp on their heads?

Michael Moore does all that he can for people. He uses his talents and compassion to try to bring awareness of what is happening here. To all of us. He takes in the suspicion and accusation of ulterior motives made by people with less than half of his intelligence and none of his humanity, and laughs them off while he continues doing what he does best. Root out inequality, expose frauds and try to bring some parity into this society. Do you ever do anything like that?

He makes money, but he could make a lot more if he had a more cavalier attitude toward other people and operated like most other film makers who go for shock over substance. Before you judge other people you need to look at yourself and see if you are coming from a place of truth or merely dislike and self righteousness. I'll take people who try to make changes for the good anytime over people who just sit and lob zingers at them because they are sitting on a sharp stick that they don't have the sense to pull out.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

17. first...in answer to the question : No...capitalism is not a sin

people who abuse it by using it to collect vast wealth while holding down others would be sinning...but the system itself is not a sin.

Second : Michael Moore is making himself out to be the ultimate hypocrite here by slamming the very system that allows him his wealth and an advertising medium to make even more...

sP

[ljm2002]

18. So if an moviemaker has a message...

...they are not allowed to make money on it? Is that what you're saying?

Or are you saying that anyone who claims the current system sucks, is not allowed to use the system to their advantage?

Since Moore doesn't like how the current system is set up, perhaps you think he is hypocritical for breathing, since he lives within the hated system?

Just looking for some clarification here.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

20. if he hates the system so much he should bow out of it for the sake of his message

he is taking advantage of it to his multimillionaire gain. It amazes me how people see him as a saint. If he weren't in this for the money he would make his documentaries and release them straight to DVD and television rather than make a fucking mint off of them. Believe what you will about him...I see a cynic laughing all the way to the bank...

sP

[Luminous Animal]

21. How can he bow out of the system?

Anybody who bows out of the system will end up homeless or in jail. He takes advantage of it no more than you or I or anybody else who lives in this U.S., but he just happens to be luckier than most of us. Also, it is not up to him how the documentary is released. That decision lies with his producers. You assume Mike has far more power than he actually has. Furthermore, you see "a cynic laughing all the way to the bank" but you provide zero evidence of that. You assumption is simply nothing more than a baseless smear.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

22. Moore has the money to produce his own movie

if he wants to show how bad capitalism REALLY is in his eyes...bow out...live off of what the gov't has to offer. Give up his Manhattan apartment and his chauffeured rides and jet setting around the world. But people will pay in droves to see his movie. He will get richer...and he will laugh all the way to his capitalist owned / managed bank. Get this : he IS a capitalist.

sP

[Luminous Animal]

29. You confuse being a capitalist

with living within a capitalist system. A capitalist controls labor and the financial sector. A person can live and exist within a capitalist system AND advocate for an overhaul of that system.

If Mike bowed out, it would effectively silence him. He'd have no resources with which create a platform for reform. And that, I believe is the real goal of detractors such as you.

You all need some new anti-Moore talking points. Twenty years of the same squawking has lost its effect.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

43. 20 years aye?

this is the first film of his I have argued against...

[ljm2002]

23. Okay, I see what you're saying...

...although you could argue it either way. What you are saying has some validity, for sure, if the goal is to be one with the downtrodden masses. On the other hand, you could argue that in our capitalist system, it takes money to get the message out there. Moore gets a much larger audience because he is able to make money on his films. That is what gets the attention of the industry, and gets him financed so he can research and produce the next film.

Personally I have nothing against him making a shitload of money. He is delivering a lot of truth in his movies, things that people need to know, and it is being seen by a wide audience. If it were distributed for free on dvds, it might get a wider audience; on the other hand, it would get less media attention and may be perceived as fringe and therefore be less influential.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

27. I have no problem with people making a mint either...

until they start to bash the system that enables them to do it...

sP

[MindPilot]

30. Moore is not anti-capitalist.

The film is about the perversion that capitalism has become.

[WatchWhatISay]

44. He has stated publicly that he doesn't hate capitialism

He hates the perversion of capitalism that we are living in today


-bank bail outs of free enterprise
-lack of common sense regulations
-tax avoidance schemes that individuals aren't entitled to (why can't I write of my car via depreciation, since I needed it primarily to get to work and earn my income)
-taking jobs and profits offshore
-"too big to fail"
-numerous forms of corporate welfare

this list could be a lot longer

[The Wielding Truth]

45. That's the thing. You can make money by doing good things.

That is the best of capitalism. Or you can make money by cheating and deceiving. It's not capitalism that is bad. It's the motive and use of capital that should be judged.

[theFrankFactor]

56. I AGREE FOR THE MOST PART..

He is not being honest. Capitalism is not a sin and that is a shitty argument to even begin to make. Greed is the problem. Additionally, capitalism is not really a "democratic" process. He's fucked up his message as he often does. That people are greedy, evil capitalists does not make capitalism greedy and evil per say.

Personally I believe in a mixed market economy and I firmly believe it is the best option for America.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy

Are you a Grayson Democrat?
Join us at TheFrankFactorSpace, a social network for aggressive progressives:
http://TheFrankFactor.com

[JDPriestly]

73. Moore pointed out, correctly, that the Constitution says nothing

about capitalism. It does talk about democracy. I did not understand Moore to say that capitalism is a democratic process. Did you actually watch his movie?

He calls the movie: Capitalism: A Love Story because his film is not about whether capitalism is necessarily an evil system but whether the form of capitalism that is now being practiced and which is dominated and driven by greed is evil. Personally, I like many aspects of capitalism, but I agree with Moore that we all need to be wary of the perversion of capitalism that has captured our economy. We are living in a plutonomy as the Citigroup calls it.

Be sure to read the memo

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6674234/Citigroup-Oct-16-2005-Plutonomy-Report-Part-1

[ProdigalJunkMail]

76. just a clarification...'democracy' is not found anywhere in the Constitution n/t

[Overseas]

26. Wow. Capitalism is not a sin but Moore is a hypocrite for daring to criticize it.

Gee, that makes a lot of sense. :crazy:

If capitalism is not a sin but amassing great wealth at the expense of others is, then why would Moore be a hypocrite? He makes money on his films and pays his staff well and gives to charity and puts money into his next films which generate more profits which he shares with his team and donates to charity and invests in his next films.

He wants a better regulated system of economics, not the predatory capitalism of tax cuts that benefit the richest, with homes foreclosed after sophisticated marketing campaigns convince Americans to take out predatory (oops, the PC term is "subprime") mortgages, and pilots paid so little that they have to apply for food stamps or second jobs to make ends meet.

We haven't gotten the strict banking and finance sector regulation the majority of us want, so perhaps we have a problem with our democracy, he suggests. Or capitalism can be too easily gamed by corporate donors.

I campaigned for and voted for President Obama but I criticize him too. I'm not a hypocrite. I am an optimist responding to my president's request that I let him know what I want.

There are many who have profited from our capitalism but criticize it too. Guess you'd call Warren Buffet a hypocrite.

[sabrina 1]

36. The system that allows him to

make money is regulated. Like all other businesses where people make money, there are rules he has to follow. Michael Moore could do what he's doing in any European, Australian, S.American, Canadian or African democratic country. It's called being an honest businessman. I don't think most of these countries where there is the same opportunity to be financially successful call it 'Capitalism'.

Capitalism is a heartless system and afaik, it originated here in the US in its current form. You imply that only in the US can a person run a profitable business. And that anyone who does, is a 'Capitalist'. The system he is criticizing would require him to be a cheater and a heartless profiteer at the expense of others.

Wall St. capitalists don't produce anything, they run a giant casino using other people's money to gamble with. They pay themselves outrageous amounts of money even as the country is going bankrupt.

Don't see how you could possibly say that what he is doing and what 'Capitalists' do are even remotely similar.

So, I see no irony in him or any other honest business person making a living off writing about, making movies about, or in any other way, making money by pointing out what a destructive system what we call 'Capitialism' has been for the world.

[bigmonkey]

50. You're confusing commerce with capitalism.

People made plenty of money before 1776, when "The Wealth of Nations" was published. Thinking Moore is a hypocrite for making money is exceedingly sloppy thinking.

[defendandprotect]

64. It's a rigged system . . . it does what it's designed to do --

Capitalism was invented by the Vatican when Feudalism was no longer sufficient

to run the Papal States --

It's only been with us a few hundred years --

[xchrom]

19. kick

[MindPilot]

28. The wealthy are God's chosen ones over at C Street.

Consider the recent revelations of the “Family” and the “C-Street” residence for high-ranking members of government. They represent the perversion of Jesus' teachings which has really become mainstream American Christianity. Simply being Christian entitles one to wealth. The truly wealthy are special individuals, chosen by god and as such do not have to bow to the laws of mere mortals. Laws like those pesky financial regulations.

[Dirtyhairy]

31. Isn't Moore in that 1% now?

[omega minimo]

32. Hardly. Welcome to DU. GOODBYE.

[MindPilot]

34. I've never put someone on ignore based on one post.

You're my first.

[Quantess]

38. He's now on my Buddy List

so I can keep tabs on his short lifespan. :evilgrin:

[debannbull]

39. MY very 1st "ignore" : dirtyharry

shoulda posted first, then ignored, dang

[Canuckistanian]

40. Moore isn't even CLOSE to being in the 1%

I think you have to have a billion in the bank before you even break the top 5%.

[DatManFromNawlins]

72. Math is obviously not your friend

Unless somehow you labor under the delusion that around 12 million people in this country have assets of a billion dollars or more.

From wikipedia: Social Class in the United States


Income and wealth statistics may serve as a helpful guideline as they can be measured in a more objective manner. In 2005, approximately one and half percent (1.5%) of households in the United States had incomes exceeding $250,000 with the top 5% having incomes exceeding $157,000.<19> Furthermore only 2.6% of household held assets (excluding home equity) of more than one-million dollars. One could therefore fall under the assumption that less than five percent of American society are members of rich households.

Michael Moore is absolutely in the top 1% he rails against, regardless of whether the criteria is income or net worth.

[Maccagirl]

47. Do you have access to his bank account or tax returns

We have rules about links here at DU.

[defendandprotect]

59. Imagine he probably does more good things with it than we'll ever know...owns no stocks . ..

heard him mention that recently --

[MyshkinCommaPrince]

35. I go on to ask, "Would Jesus be a capitalist?"

I just finished reading The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power, by Jeff Sharlet, a few days ago. The book deals with a movement Sharlet terms "elite fundamentalism", in which the practitioners worship Jesus as a manifestation of and a way toward political and economic power. The religious crazies have a completely different conception of Jesus (among many other things) than the rest of us. The elite fundamentalists explicitly worship a Capitalist Jesus. The mind boggles. I suppose Moore wants to make the religious non-crazies think, in his piece. The crazies are beyond his message. Even if they were listening, there are no longer shared definitions to allow meaningful discussion of questions like those Moore presents. I hope he gets through to some who are both religious and sane.

Hmm. I'm not sure I have a clear point, above. I'm just posting the thoughts which sprang to mind. Need more coffee. My apologies.

[deminks]

37. I know what you are talking about.

I call it trickle down Jesus. We've been taken over by a cult. Moore is just trying to shine a light where the light doesn't usually shine. It was bad enough the corporatist capitalists betting against us paying our mortgages. Betting against us living with the dead peasant insurance is the last straw.

[DailyGrind51]

42. A Friedmanite acquaintance referred to the Pope as a "European socialist",

after I forwarded Benedict's encyclical on economic justice, "Caritas in Veritate". This dude considers himself a good Catholic.

[defendandprotect]

62. How much is the Vatican worth? And when did they start giving it away--???

PS on this --

It seems that the taxpayer money that Bush has given to the faith-based religious

organizations -- and most of the organizations are affiliated with the Catholic

Church -- is the subject of investigation because they suspect that the Catholic church

used the money to pay off their lawsuits related to priest-pedophiles!!!


We could connect some dots here, perhaps?

This is, of course, illegal - UnConstitutional --

but Bush pushed it thru -- was it to help the RCC in their moment of crisis?

[Stumbler]

49. It's been said time and again

If America were truly a Christian nation, as in a nation that follows the teachings of Christ, we would've had universal health care decades ago. We'd also have fewer prisons, a drastically smaller military presence in the world, tighter regulations on companies poisoning our environment, as well as scrupulous bankers/ lenders/ investors, reduced poverty, etc.

And less of an "I've got mine, you can go fuck yourself" attitude towards our neighbors and fellow countrymen.

[mistertrickster]

51. Is there any evidence that the top 1 percent have more wealth than the bottom 95%?

What I've seen shows the bottom 95 percent have twice as much wealth as the top 1 percent.

ON EDIT--

Okay, Moore seems to be right:

http://www.colorado.edu/AmStudies/lewis/2010/fortune.htm

Since the 1970s, the top 1 percent of households have doubled their share of the national wealth at the expense of everyone else. Using data from the Federal Reserve Survey of Consumer Finances, economist Edward Wolff of New York University says that the top 1 percent had 40 percent of the nation’s household wealth as of 1997. The top 1 percent of households have more wealth than the entire bottom 95 percent.

[BillDU]

53. My too cents

No!
Capitalism is not a sin.
It's a tool.
Just like anything else.
A knife can either kill or heal...
Capitalism can either kill or heal....
Archie Bunker might have done better to understand that.

[The Green Manalishi]

54. Capitalism is like nuclear power

= capable of generating the energy to do a lot of good but capable of causing severe damage when it runs amok.
Just my .02

[BillDU]

57. Agreed

So...
What are we all going to do...
Now!

[BillDU]

60. lskjkdjkfjajdkkf

My neighbor said he is about to advance a disinformation program.

[BillDU]

66. and

Of course he was lying

[BobTheSubgenius]

68. Nice!

:D

[defendandprotect]

58. Remember, sadly, that those who supported Bush thought he was on their God's side . . .!!!

Probably only hell knows what their God might be all about?!

Also remember that God spoke with George and told him to invade Afghanistan --

and then he told him to invade Iraq --

That's the danger of organized patriarchal religion -- their God says what they want

him to say!

And there are whackos who believe this crap cause they've been brainwashed by this

garbage most of their lives!

[dysfunctional press]

61. he always talks about the top 1% having more than the 95% below them combined...

what happened to the other 4%? :shrug:

[Bjorn Against]

67. He doesn't say that...

What he accurately says is that the top 1% of Americans have more wealth than the bottom 95% of Americans combined, that is not the same thing as saying the top 1% have more than the 95% below them. The other 4% has a great deal of wealth as well, but not nearly as much as the top 1%.

[dysfunctional press]

69. michael moore's words- from michael moore's diary:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/10/4/789526/-For-Those-of-You-on-Your-Way-to-Church-This-Morning

"Would he approve of a system that has allowed the richest 1% to have more financial wealth than the 95% under them combined? "

you were saying...?

:eyes:

[Bjorn Against]

78. Well he meant the bottom 95%, which is what he says in the movie

We all misspeak sometimes, no need for the eyerolling.

[dysfunctional press]

80. you both misspoke.

:hi:

[stopbush]

65. Moore really cheapens his argument with this sophistry.

Capitalism wasn't around when Jesus supposedly existed. He may well have thought capitalism was a great system because it put at least SOME power into the hands of the lowly. Then again, maybe he wouldn't - after all, the man approved of slavery, fer Chrissake! How bad is capitalism compared to slavery?

Representative democracy as we practice it today wasn't around when Jesus supposedly lived. Jesus told people to obey their rulers as they were gods representatives on Earth. How would Jesus have felt about the American Revolution?

Would Jesus have approved of giving men and women of every class the vote? Are there votes in heaven? Nope, didn't think so. Heaven is based on the model of the kingdom, where an almighty rules over his serfs in an eternal (hopefully, benign) dictatorship. I can't imagine a man who demands people worship him under threat of an eternity spent in hell fire approving of putting power into the hands of the common people.

Where would Jesus come down on the heath care debate? If we're to believe what he said in the Bible, then it's time for the poor to start praying for better health and to listen to the wise consul of the itinerant holy men who cast out demons and rub mud on the eyes of the blind. Benny Hinn may well be exactly what the doctor ordered if that doctor is Jesus.

Moore would be better off to have left the Jesus can of worms unopened, lest his followers actually start to think about all of the ramifications of deciding one's modern day course of action based on WWJD.

[Swamp Rat]

70. Jesus overturned the tables of the moneychangers in Jerusalem.

WWJD?

He'd go to Wallstreet and literally wreck the stock exchange.

[DatManFromNawlins]

71. Bullshit

Jesus went berserk in the temple because the moneychangers (aka currency exchangers) and other merchants (selling sacrificial animals and other religious items) were ripping people off IN THE TEMPLE.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. One Can Make A Case That The Same Thing Happens On Wall Street

~

[Swamp Rat]

81. LOL!

Yeah you rite! :D

[stopbush]

83. He also fashioned a whip and beat human beings and animals alike with the same.

WWJD? Well, if it's fashioning a whip with which to beat his fellow human beings, I would say that doing what Jesus does is loathsome.

BTW - have you ever really thought about the flip side of the moneychangers story?

The moneychangers were exactly that - changers. They were not lenders. Their job was to offer an exchange service for the diverse coinage that people carried with them. Only certain coins were acceptable to the temple as an offering. Each male Jew was required to make a yearly animal sacrifice and monetary offering to the temple. A Jew showing up in Jerusalem with coinage unacceptable to the temple had the choice of having the coinage exchange by a friendly vendor (ie: a fellow Jew), or by a not-so-friendly vendor (ie: a Roman). Which one do you think the average Jew trusted more?

Same thing with animal sacrifice, which was REQUIRED of every Jewish male every year. Does he take the risk of bringing his own animal with him to Jerusalem, only to run the risk of the rabbis rejecting the animal as being unclean and unworthy of being sacrificed? Or, does he buy a temple-approved animal on the spot? Again, these actions were required actions, not elective actions.

More important, these services were approved of and regulated by the temple rabbis, who were doing so to provide a convenience to their fellow Jews. I have no doubt that once Jesus was done beating his fellow beings with his whip and had departed the grounds that vendors, rabbis and Jewish worshipers alike were glad to see him go so they could get about the business of honoring their god in the way that their god demanded. I wouldn't be surprised if more than a few of them felt the need to say a special prayer because they felt that their god had something against them to have timed the appearance of the madman for the few minutes that they were visiting the temple that year.

Seen in this light, Jesus' actions in the temple find their modern equivalent in the nut case who upsets the flower cart at the local hospital because he doesn't like that fact that commerce is being conducted in a place where people are dying.

[ScottLand]

75. Well said.

[Orsino]

79. They done built themselves a better Jaysus.

Automatic weapons blazing, this Savior kicks in the door to deliver up-close-and-personal judgment to anyone who doesn't pretend hard enough.

[BoneDaddy]

84. While out with a couple of my republican friends

I postulated the question: "is capitalism consistent with Christianity". I was met with dead silence as this trio of republican christian Catholics pondered my question. After about two minutes of deep thought, one of the guys said "no, it is not".

I give him credit for his honesty but this kind of cognitive dissonance is rampant among most religious.

[mdmc]

85. --