The Duke boys. They don't deserve sympathy because they are male/rich?

[flying_monkeys]

Uh oh, watch out - - That brings up a new sexism angle and the "Classist" angle. Isn't *EVERYONE* who is falsely accused worthy of sympathy, whether they have penises (penii?) and dollars or not?

It seems to me that sympathy shouldn't be contingent on their sex, economic scale or whether X group gets an appropriate amount of outrage over their crimes or not....


People are PEOPLE, aren't they? If they have been wronged, then what skin is it off our collective noses if we grant them an ounce of sympathy or not? Deciding they are unworthy because of their gender/ bank accounts really exposes bias here, I think. Or it exposes a very small pool inside from which to garner sympathy.... Is sympathy in small quantity?


I think *I* can spend some sympathy towards the Duke boys wrongly accused without jeopardizing my support and sympathy for either rape victims or people sent away to prison on dna evidence that is later (rightfully) overturned. The well of sympathy is not mutually exclusive for me.

Thoughts?

[lumberjack_jeff]

1. Gaaa! Make it stop! n/t

[karlrschneider]

2. It will never stop. The ghost of Tawana Brawley will haunt us forever.

...

[greyghost]

3. As well she should...

Let us not forget the Reverend's other hits:

Terry Schiavo

Hymie Town

and of course the Duke Lacrosse Team

Nothing like being tried and convicted in the media is there?

Especially our corporate driven media.

Lets see, a female basketball team was insulted by a has been shock jock, and a male lacrosse was wrongfully charged with rape. Forgive me for thinking that the lacrosse team got the real shaft.

I hope those rich kids end up owning Duke.

[flying_monkeys]

4. They are two different things.

And they deserve to be considered seperately.


FTR, I thought the Duke guys were at fault until recently - - because I will *always* back a sister (my bias). BUT, when a guy gets exonerated, I am willing to spend some of my sympathy capital his way, because it would SUCK for anyone to be wrongfully accused.


My feeling icky for the guys doesn't negate my feeling icky for the woman, who still feels *something happened*.... I am sad she (maybe?) feels abandoned in this process and victimized (maybe again?) but the evidence and testimony given to the DA indicates her victimization isn't verifiable in real time (DNA tests, phone records, cab driver).


I truly believe in her mind, she did a flashback (due to PTSD?) and believes she was attacked. And I feel horrible for that - - but that doesn't diminish my capacity to feel bad for the 3 guys who were falsely accused. It is possible to be sympathetic to BOTH groups....

[pnwmom]

21. I totally agree. Sympathy shouldn't be a zero sum game.

And I've wondered about the same thing you have -- PTSD. She accused three men of group rape years ago, then dropped the charges. Maybe that experience is still haunting her.

Of maybe she's just really screwed up.

It's the prosecutor who is really to blame, however, because he was the one person with access to ALL the facts, including her long psychological history, and her numerous different stories. He went ahead with the charges anyway, and even covered up exculpatory evidence. I'll be surprised if there aren't criminal charges for him down the road.

[greyghost]

47. Exactly...

Nifong should be disbarred for this fiasco. But the MSM needs to be held accountable for their contribution.

[Horse with no Name]

75. In the sum of things though

I would rather the MSM be held accountable for their crimes against the country first.

[pnwmom]

92. This is all connected.

The media went to town on this story last year -- the "evil rich white boys rape poor black downtrodden mother" story -- because it's a lot easier to whip people up into a frenzy with a tale like that than with a reasoned piece about Iraq, or constitutional rights, or Abu Graib, or any number of issues.

But this story does point to a larger issue: the importance of having "open discovery" laws everywhere. The reason the three students are free today is that N.C.'s open discovery law requires the prosecution to hand over all its evidence ( including lab reports and witness statements) to the defense, and in a timely manner. Nifong failed to hand over important exculpatory DNA evidence, and for that he faces possible criminal charges himself.

Open discovery is even more important to poor defendants, who can't afford their own investigators and lab tests.

There is more about this here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=665170&mesg_id=665170

[lumberjack_jeff]

67. Or maybe the first time 'round her conscience got the better of her. n/t

[Bluebear]

19. Terry Schiavo!?!?!

Other activists, including the Rev. Al Sharpton, expressed dismay over the politicization of the Schiavo’s grief.

"I am saddened by the death of Terri Schiavo,” Sharpton said in statement Thursday. “I am also saddened by the blatant attempt by right wing extremists to use her condition and family disagreements to galvanize an anti-choice fervor in this country. I respectfully declined an invitation to come to Florida by the Schindler family because the situation was being used by the right wing to distort the issue of a person's right to make life choices."

http://www.blackamericaweb.com/site.aspx/bawnews/schiavo401

[Laughing Mirror]

30. Hymietown? Are you confusing Rev Sharpton with Rev Jackson?

And what is this hit on the Duke Lacrosse Team you're talking about, and which of your "Reverend's" made it?

[greyghost]

48. Nah...

I combined the two, sort of like a "Super" Group.:evilgrin:

[Laughing Mirror]

54. All reverends look alike?

I repeat and revise my question: Please explain the combined "Reverend's" "hit" on the Lacrosse players you hit on in your post. When you come on this board making accusations about prominent Democrats you need to be able to back up your statements. The proof is in the pudding after all. So tell us, what exactly was the "Reverend's" "hit" on the players?

[greyghost]

100. The glimmer twins...

especially Jesse in this case, tried these kids in the media. He even offered to pay the "victims" college tab. LOL

In case you haven't noticed, there is no difference between Jackson and Sharpton. They're both extortionists of the highest order. BTW, I've met both of them so anyone would be hard pressed to convince me otherwise.

[Lex]

5. The Duke boys? Luke and Bo?

They are male but I don't think they are rich.

[rubberducky]

6. Of couse they deserve our sympathy, but

they had the financial means to fight off false charges. How many without that financial backing are sent to jail?

[pnwmom]

22. They made that very point in their press conference.

And yet many here still continue to act as if they're too spoiled to deserve our sympathy.

[raccoon]

99. Read "The Innocent Man" by John Grisham to find out more about that. nt

[DefenseLawyer]

7. It is an unfortunate fact of life

but many people put themselves on one side or the other of these "issues", whether is is domestic violence or rape or child molestation or police brutality. These folks make up their mind about any case, not based on the facts but based on their positions on the "issue". The fact is that sometimes people commit horrible crimes and sometimes people are wrongly accused of horrible crimes. Sometimes cops find themselves in a tough spot and do what is necessary; sometimes they fuck up and act unnecessarily. It would be nice to occasionally hear the guy from the FOP, after a cop has shot an unarmed blind woman 44 times in the back and then planted a gun on her, to say "Okay, that was excessive, that's a problem". But he won't. He will tell us what a tough job cops have and that that officer was "putting his life on the line". Women's advocates will often defend a woman who accuses a man of rape even after the man has been exonerated by DNA. I don't know why. It doesn't diminish one's commitment to the plight of victims to acknowledge that a certain percentage of "victims" are lying. Just like it is not "anti police" to say Abner Louima didn't deserve to be sodomized with a plunger.

[nam78_two]

9. As an aside

Isn't that horrific Louima case the one where the "officers" torturing Louima said "This is Guiliani time" or something like that? Referring presumably to Guiliani's "tough stance on crime" :eyes:.

[pnwmom]

23. Wow. The voice of reason -- and from an attorney, no less!

Who woulda thunk it?

;)

[lumberjack_jeff]

68. Yes, the line between "the issue" and "the crime" is blurred when it becomes public.

[katsy]

8. Congrats Duke Team!

Is that good enough? Because it's all I can muster at the moment.

I'm happy justice has been done. IMO, it isn't "sympathy" that shouldn't be contingent on sex/race/economic class. It's justice, housing, health care, education etc... that shouldn't be contingent on sex/race/economic class.

My sympathy goes out to people wrongly incarcerated for 10, 15, 25 years. To the poor and disenfranchised. To children without hope and often without food or stable homes. To the people we've murdered in Iraq and troops dead and injured. Call me a classist because I am. I'm proud of being for a basic level of economic security for all even though I wish there were no need for my position.

The Duke boys will be fine. I mean, they had the defense every person deserves. This is a good thing. They are worthy of the best defense they could have. Justice has been served and that demands no sympathy.

Now if these 3 fine young men see fit to help relieve a few of their fellow Americans on the front line... that would get my attention.

[pnwmom]

24. No one should be on that front line. They should all be brought back home.

The more we send out there, the longer this war will be prolonged.

[katsy]

45. That wasn't the point.

It goes without saying that the troops should be sent home.

[mondo joe]

62. How much sympathy exactly do you havee to go around?

I have no problem mustering sympathy for all those you mentioned, these falsely accused among them.

I don't know why your sympathy is so scarce.

And I don't see why they should be on the front line - I don't know anything about their support for Bush or the war. Do you?

[katsy]

79. The Duke men were rightfully aquitted. Justice was served.

I don't see where sympathy is called for and I feel no sympathy for them. I offer congratulations and would feel no scorn if they sued the pants off the University. That's their due if they have a case.

I'm relieved that their unfortunate fiasco didn't end in 3 more people wrongly incarcerated for years on end.

You feel sympathy. I feel that justice was served and the Duke players were vindicated.

There is no more emotional investment on my part in this matter. This was a party gone horribly wrong, 3 young men were wrongly accused and then vindicated. I just can not emotionally respond to this matter in any manner beyond that.

Also, I never stated these men SHOULD be on the front line. I stated: "Now if these 3 fine young men see fit to help relieve a few of their fellow Americans on the front line... that would get my attention." In other words, acts of kindness where people respond to a situation without obligation to help others, tends to garner much respect and sympathy with me. It's not something I can turn on or off. It just happens.

[pnwmom]

94. Here's something easy that you can do to help defendants

without the resources of the Duke students: see if your state, like North Carolina, has a strict open discovery law. This is the law that in N.C. required the prosecution to turn over ALL of its evidence to the defense. That law is why the students are free now, and it is even more important to poor defendants, who can't afford to hire private investigators or pay for lab tests.

More here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=665170&mesg_id=665170

[katsy]

96. Thank you.

I'll check it out.

Cheers!

[KharmaTrain]

10. The Common Thread = Corporate Media Greed

I paid almost no attention to the Duke case other than the bare essentials as I saw it at the time as another corporate media lynching. The reason was simple...the media's rush to judgement...they tried and hung these guys before the story was several hours old. They took the word of the DA (that's who they got their cue from) who drove this train off the cliff and they all went along for the ride. It was the Nancy Graces' who had these kids convicted...the accuser was automatically a victim (especially cause all men are scum). Dare I say, this sound similar to the Kobe Bryant fiasco...the combination of race, sex, violence and money is too intoxicating for ratings hungry cable stations...who always seem to have their story lines written and then "report".

Now watch this DA get nominated to replace Gonzo.

[pnwmom]

25. He won't be because, much to our discredit, he is a Democrat.

Not all the rats are Republicans, unfortunately. It would be so much easier to pick them out that way.

[marions ghost]

41. do you really believe that?

[KharmaTrain]

57. The More Important Question...

Do I really care? Answer: Not Really.

[greyghost]

49. It wouldn't surprise...

me at all if Nifong is next in line for AG.:evilfrown:

[Atman]

11. Randolph and Mortimer?

No sympathy from me! They deserved to lose their seats on the stock exchange.

.

[Truthiness Inspector]

12. Well said

I'm female, but my brother is a "rich white boy" and he has never been a racist, sexist asshole.

He took his own beatings. We grew up in Hawaii, he got smacked down harder than most "minorities" by a long shot. He actually got BEATEN in the clinical sense just for being white.

Now, about the Duke guys, they hired a stripper--not cool or kosher, but the HELL they've been through is not on scale.

[pnwmom]

26. I think that losing their $800 on a boring, raunchy 5 minute performance

was all the lesson they needed.

[Alexander]

13. Sadly, many DUers hate men, and rich people.

So rich men are at the bottom of their lists.

[hughee99]

14. I agree, but on the other hand...

those falsely accused of a horrible crime are usually high on the list to get sympathy. For most DUers (but clearly not all as I found in another thread) this more than cancels out the "rich white male" thing.

[Alexander]

15. Yes, but some DUers just want to "stick it to 'em".

No matter if they did anything wrong, the rich and the men must pay.

I agree, most DUers are sane and want justice. But some see "justice" as "hurt anyone belonging to this demographic group, because someone in this group once harmed you".

That never gets us anywhere.

[hughee99]

16. I 100% agree.

It seems to be a small minority of DUers, but there sadly there are some.

[Truthiness Inspector]

18. And that my friend is not justice at all

it is wishful thinking, because it feels good. Justice is secondary, irrelevant in this case.

[Alexander]

20. It seems justice properly took its course here.

But who knows how many overzealous prosecutors like Nifong are allowed to pursue cases on no evidence (or withhold evidence, as in this case) and the defendants didn't contest it, because they didn't have enough money?

If there was an injustice committed, it was certainly by Nifong - but unfortunately, the poor often can't defend against people like that. That doesn't mean two wrongs make a right, it means the first wrong should be made right again.

This is a symptom of our flawed justice system more than anything else, and I will be taking note as to who among the current presidential candidates will propose some kind of drastic reform in our court and prison systems.

[pnwmom]

28. Something else we should all be looking into: do our states have

open discovery laws, which is what got the students freed in North Carolina? The state was required to turn over all its evidence to the defense in a timely manner, and instead, they hid some of it. Nifong could go to jail for that.

These laws are especially vital for poor defendants, who don't have resources to hire their own investigators, labs, etc. But not all states have them and N.C. is thinking about rolling theirs back.

[Alexander]

29. To not have open discovery laws is a mockery of justice itself.

Why North Carolina would roll theirs back, after this case, appalls and astounds me.

[pnwmom]

32. Not only that, but they passed the law in the first place

because there were people wrongfully on death row who were freed when hidden evidence came to light.

Apparently, there are people in the state who want to make a prosecutor's job as easy as possible, justice be damned.

[pnwmom]

40. Lots of places don't. Here's an interesting article about Santa Clara, CA law:

http://www.mercurynews.com/taintedtrials/ci_5168880?nclick_check=1

SNIP

Last month, the office adopted a new policy to discourage prosecutors from withholding the kind of evidence that Martin created. But even as experts applaud the change, they note that it does not fix an inherent conflict: It is up to prosecutors to decide what information needs to be shared with their adversaries.

``It defies logic to expect prosecutors to be the ones to make the judgments about what evidence might be exculpatory,'' said Mary Pollard, a North Carolina defense attorney who represented Alan Gell, whose wrongful conviction in a death penalty case helped spur a sweeping reform there. ``It is a question not only of their integrity but also their judgments: Will prosecutors see the evidence in the same way?''

Withheld evidence has become a matter of nationwide concern after being linked to a series of wrongful convictions. As a result, state commissions have urged changes to reduce such problems. The most dramatic change has been in North Carolina, where any decision to withhold evidence has been taken from prosecutors and made the responsibility of judges.

The process of turning over evidence before trial, known as discovery, has long been contentious. Santa Clara County enacted its new policy last month after Public Defender Mary Greenwood questioned several cases in which evidence was withheld -- a complaint that mirrored questions raised by the Mercury News in interviews with high-ranking prosecutors.

SNIP

[Scout]

102. many DUers hate men

got proof of that broad brush statement?

[SoCalDem]

17. they learned a valuable lesson.. that's its own reward

booze + frat boys + exotic dancers = Beaucoup bad shit..

Luckily for them, no one died, or was paralyzed or brain dead..

they will survive (cue music)

unless they spend the rest of their days reminding people, no one will care all that much..

How often do you quiz new acquaintances about their college parties?

I'll reserve my sympathy for the vets who come home with 1/4 of their limbs ....or for the families of those who come home in bits & pieces (in a box)..

[pnwmom]

27. Do you have a limited supply of sympathy? That's unfortunate.

Most of us have as much of it as we ever need. Our sympathy supply just expands on demand.

I think all of us SHOULD have learned some much more valuable lessons than the one you mentioned. For example,

1. Don't assume every prosecutor is on the up and up. (Think Bush and U.S. attorney scandal. It's not a coincidence that the vast number of political prosecutions brought over the last several years are of Democrats. A federal appeals court just unanimously voted to overturn a conviction of a Democratic woman based on the incredibly flimsy case brought against her by a U.S. prosecutor. Sound familiar?)

2. The open discovery law in North Carolina is what got these students freed. But not every state has one, and in North Carolina they're considering rolling it back. We should all be fighting for open discovery. It benefits all defendants, but ESPECIALLY the ones who lack the financial resources to pay for their own private investigators, lab tests, etc.

[marions ghost]

42. after what happened here

it's clear that open discovery is something that needs to be in place, but there also needs to be further protections from those who would take advantage of it for their own gain.

There were abuses on both sides. Although we have to support letting people go when procedures are not followed in making a case against them, it is still not clear that "justice was done" here.

Looking at "open discovery" makes sense. I doubt there's any real fear that it will be rolled back in North Carolina. But it may need to be tweaked.

[pnwmom]

83. It is abundantly clear that justice was done. Except that it shouldn't

have taken so long.

As the Attorney General has stated, there was no evidence that supported the victims constantly changing, increasing fantastical stories. And there was abundant evidence that contradicted her. Perhaps you'll change your mind when you read the A.G.'s written report, which he says is due out this week.

You may have no fear that open discovery is threatened in N.C., but there is a bill being considered right now that would gut the open discovery law, by allowing the prosecution to withold such things as reports and witness interviews from the defense.

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Sessions/2007/Bills/Senate/HTML/S1130v0.html

[marions ghost]

103. the bill won't get through

you are blowing this up. There isn't enough support.

There were abuses on both sides. But you'll never address that, I'm sure.

[Kajsa]

66. Hi SoCalDem! Did anyone watch their '60 Minutes' interview last night?

One of the guys mentioned that his name would be
" forever linked with being a rape suspect".

Yeah, the MSM creates their own "reality".
It sucks.

SoCal Dem- can I borrow your Walgreen's photo?

I once worked as a secretary to an assistant manager and manager
at a bank.

I messed up the abbreviated title for the first one, once and only once.

Unfortunately, it went out in a letter where she did not catch it
when signing it!

Oh, my--- NO, I didn't get fired.

;-)

[SoCalDem]

101. Sure.. use the fragrance pic if you like.. I found it online to start with

:)

[motocicleta]

76. I agree.

They lost my sympathy when they held a party and invited a dancer. Call me cold-hearted, but that makes them not my people, even though I am white, male, and relatively rich. There is a huge call for sympathy, and those boys aren't gettin' it. If they had been wrongly convicted? Sure, I would have found some sympathy. But not for this.

[ConsAreLiars]

31. Rich frat boys hiring a less privileged member of the underclass to serve them

in providing sexual gratification is certainly a decent act and worthy of sympathy. Otherwise, how could that poor gal pay for her books? I'm sure their god and people like you can be expected to bless them for their kind act.

:sarcasm:

[pnwmom]

33. They're not frat boys. And one of them wasn't particularly wealthy, either.

That's why they reduced the bail.

I think that anyone who has been facing 30 years in prison on the basis of false charges deserves sympathy.

If we only can feel sympathetic toward people just like us, does that mean I should only care about white, middle class, college educated mothers?

Maybe I should join the Republicans after all. At least those people wouldn't make me feel that I should apologize for even existing.

[ConsAreLiars]

35. Go ahead. Join the Republicans. Hire strippers. Be happy.

And when they hit you back, be self-righteous and indignant. Then you can join Swaggart and all those hypocrites in their crocodile tears.

[pnwmom]

38. If that's the way all Dems treated people who were different from

themselves, we could forget about ever winning another election.

[katsy]

51. If Dems started dictating that everyone should sympathize with...

the victim "fill-in-the-blank" injustice of the day, who'd want to vote for them in the 1st place.

I'm glad justice was served and am always wary of overreaching prosecutors no matter who is charged with a crime.

Why do you believe sympathy should be dictated when in this case, justice, logic and reason prevailed?

Whether one extends their "sympathy" to others is a subjective judgement not group think.

[pnwmom]

69. I don't really care about anyone having sympathy. It's the antipathy

toward the students that bothers me. And there's been plenty of it expressed here.

Neutral is fine.

[katsy]

80. I have no antipathy towards the Duke players. n/t

[onenote]

50. so do you support adding a "ban stripping" provision to the Democratic platform?

[mondo joe]

60. "Hit you back"??? Charging someone with rape is hitting back for hiring a stripper?

Nice.

:eyes:

[Forkboy]

61. I thought I was tense.

[Alexander]

34. I hope you get more sympathy if you're ever falsely accused of rape.

Nobody's saying these kids are saints, but they don't deserve to have their lives ruined over false accusations.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

43. I'm sure the stripper would be grateful to you for forbidding her to strip.

She *chose* to work as a stripper; the fact that these men were willing to pay her gave her an option she preferred to any of the others available to her, as demonstrated by the fact that she took it. They did more to help her that you've done.

A trade only takes place when both people feel they are benefiting by it.

If they'd coerced her into stripping then you'd have a case. As it is, you don't.

[mondo joe]

59. What does hiring a stripper have to do with getting falsely charged with rape?

Why do you think the first mitigates the second?

[Bentcorner]

81. What frat did they belong to? The house they were is was a dump.

[pnwmom]

93. They didn't belong to any frat. That's a common misconception around here.

Or maybe just a way some people try to insult them.

It was just three guys renting a tiny house together, who had a party and invited the lacrosse team.

Welcome to DU, Bentcorner!

[live love laugh]

36. Duke "boys", Bush "girls".... give me a break. nt

[pnwmom]

39. I thought it was funny when the locals were calling Mangum "the young lady."

And she was 28.

[City Lights]

52. Exactly. They're not boys. They're men. eom

[TahitiNut]

58. And DUers call 'em "my baby" when discussing the draft.

:eyes:

[pnwmom]

71. Every mother knows

they'll always be their babies.

:)

[TahitiNut]

87. So, 'live love laugh' needs to become pregnant to understand, huh?

Will her lament of "give me a break" disappear at that point?

:silly:

:rofl:

Funny how this stuff seems to have a different standards so often. It's almost GOPish.

[pnwmom]

88. There's a lot you'll never understand

unless you have a child, whether it is by pregnancy or adoption.

[mondo joe]

90. I usually consider people in college to be kids.

Older students excepted.

[Triana]

44. I'm genuinely happy for them that they were not convicted of...

...something they did NOT do!

However, they put themselves in a position to be accused of it. Wild parties (which they were known for and which they'd had neighbors call the police on them for numerous times), encouraging underage drinking, hiring strippers, etc. Is THAT acceptable behavior for Duke LaCrosse players? These guys are the FACE of Duke out in the community and THIS is how they act?

Sure, a lot of college students have wild parties, etc.

However, these boys seemed to want the PRIVILEGE and PRESTIGE of being on the Duke LaCrosse team - but WITHOUT the social responsibility that goes along with that privilege.

I'm sorry but it doesn't WORK that way. Maybe they can get away with it for a while but eventually, something will happen - like this - and they PUT themselves in a position for it to happen. And THAT - is their own fault. They were ACTING like spoiled rich brats - and that helped invite just exactly the type of situation that occurred.

HECK yea I'm glad they weren't convicted! NO ONE deserves to be convicted of something they are not guilty of I don't care who they are.

However, SOME of the responsibility for the fact that this situation occurred AT ALL belongs on their own shoulders.

I hope they've learned a few things from this. And if they did, what they learned will probably be one of the most valuable lessons they ever learned at Duke.

As for their accuser - SHE is also responsible for putting HERSELF in the position she put herself in - AND for the false and ever-changing accusations she made. She's done this before and I think something ought to be done about her - whether she's mentally unstable or not.

Frankly, I think there was PLENTY of irresponsibility, bad choices, and bad behavior to go around - both to the players and their accuser. All of them INVITED this.

WHAT a freaking mess.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Triana]

98. Youbetcha. They may not have been guilty of rape...but they were NOT

blameless in getting themselves into the situation where they could be accused of it. They were guilty of irresponsibility and bad judgement - JUST like their accuser. PLENTY of blame to go around, IMO. I appreciate your cheerleading for the guys, but it doesn't change my opinion - probably won't change anyone else's either. They were ALL acting pretty darned stupid that night. Ms. Magnum and the LaCrosse players - AND the ones who threw the party if it was different people.

[ComerPerro]

46. what a refreshingly original post. How clever of you.

[pnwmom]

89. Oh, no. You're the clever one. n/t

[City Lights]

53. When you think of the female basketball payers at Rutgers, do you envision

girls or women?

The male lacross players at Duke are men, not boys.

Why did you refer to men as boys?

edited for typo

[pnwmom]

73. As long as a person is consistent -- calls

all 18 year olds girls and boys OR men and women -- does it really matter?

But I can't tell you how many times I've heard people denigrate these students as "frat boys." Which isn't true on either account.

[alcibiades_mystery]

55. Beats all you ever saw/ Been in trouble with the Law

Since the day they was born...

:rofl:

[Dorian Gray]

56. Actually

they DON'T deserve sympathy because they are rich white males. They DO deserve sympathy because they were wrongly accused of a vicious crime that they were innocent of.

I feel the utmost sympathy for them, and even more for those who go through the same travails without having the money behind them to prove their innocence.

[tammywammy]

63. Ditto

"I feel the utmost sympathy for them, and even more for those who go through the same travails without having the money behind them to prove their innocence."

[pnwmom]

74. There's something you can do to help about that.

Look into whether your state has an open discover law -- with teeth in it. These laws are especially critical for poor defendants, who can't afford to hire private investigators or pay for lab tests.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=665170&mesg_id=665170

[camero]

64. They have something that we don't

The opportunity to go on CNN and such and mount a PR defense and have the media intimidate the victim into changing the story. I don't think anyone really knows what happened that night but the people involved. But now they may know what the rest of us go through and some people spend years in jail before being exonerated.

[pnwmom]

77. No reasonably informed person could still think that these defendants

intimidated the witness into changing her story. This person would have to be completely unaware of the mountains of evidence that contradicted the more than a dozen stories she gave.

But if you do care about other people who were falsely charged, there is something you could do about it. Find out if your state has a true open discovery law and if not, pester your legislators about it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=665170&mesg_id=665170

[mondo joe]

91. How exactly do you think their defense intimidated the woman into changing her story?

Honestly - what exactly made her change her story?

[Duppers]

65. hear hear!

Say I was born to rich parents. Is that my fault? Does that make ME a 'bad' person?
To far too many here it does!!

Where's the damn objectivity that we progressive liberals are suppose to be famous for, folks?

[Pacifist Patriot]

70. I've never understood the concept that sympathy and compassion are finite.

I got my proverbial ass handed to me on-line when the Andrea Yates case first hit the news. I expressed a feeling of sympathy for her and was instantly dogpiled with accusations of having no sympathy for the children. Such types of assumptions instantly became a pet peeve of mine and I see it all the time.

If I post to a thread about Imus that means I don't care about our troops in Iraq. If I post that my newspaper's editorial staff sucks it means I think network news is doing a fantastic job. When in the world did our thinking become so exclusionary?

The assumption that human beings are incapable of complexity is downright puzzling to me since it should run counter to everyone's internal world.

[pnwmom]

78. Good post, PP. I heartily agree. n/t

[tigereye]

86. one would think that it is possible for there to be compassion

for all parties in these situations. The world is complex.

Nicely said.

[truedelphi]

82. I was horrified (and I am not being sarcastic) to find out

That the prosecuting attorney withheld valuable DNA evidence from the defense in order to make these charges stick. Just what is that about??

When you look into the many lives ruined that organizations like "Project Innocence" have scrambled to help heal, I find it equally reprehensible that affluent white guys were about to have their lives ruined.

Where do these DA's get off? I would love to see a law that says that any time a DA convicts when knowing that the evidence is trumped up, or when exonnerating evidence has been withheld- well then the DA's should get to serve a percentage of the time they were going to stick to the innocent defendents.

Over the last five years, the San Francisco Chronicle has detailed several cases of low income, hard working black men who were convicted of rapes and/or murders that they did not commit, where the DA inthat jurisdiction knew they were probably innocent, but the DA wanted a more glorified conviction record for their office and themselves. Only after serving many years of hard time are these innocent people finally let free - to try to re-build their lives.

And if DNA had not finally been established as a reliable and crucial part of the evidence chain, these innocents would still be rotting away in the jails.

[pnwmom]

85. I suggest you check to see whether your state has

a strict open discovery law, as in North Carolina. N.C.'s requirement that the prosecution open its case to the defense is what finally freed the students.

Some states don't have open discovery, and others have open discovery laws that allow the prosecutor to pick and choose what evidence he hands over to the defense.

But in North Carolina, there is a strict open discovery law that required Nifong to hand over ALL evidence to the defense (not just evidence that he himself deemed exculpatory.) We all need laws like that one.

More information is here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=665170&mesg_id=665170

[truedelphi]

95. Thanks greatly - will do that check up on state laws. n/t

[guitar man]

84. I'm really surprised they got off

I mean, even though Rosco and Boss Hogg are crooked, those two do break the law an awful lot. I guess if Enos wasn't sweet on Daisy, they would have been a goner a long time ago....

:hide:

[CTyankee]

97. Wrong is wrong. No getting around it.

These boys will, however, have the support they need and the resources to go on with their lives. Nifong did a terrible thing to them and to the girl. He exploited her and falsely accused and set up the boys. A terrible situation all around.

It looks like one of the boys has grown because of his experience. He's going off to the London School of Economics and wants to work on behalf of other wrongly accused peopel in our society. That is admirable.

The girl, OTOH, is just left by the wayside. Human detritus. You can't not be sorry for her condition (for which most of the blame goes to Nifong). I truly think she was not in her right mind. She will have a terrible life. The boys will rebound and have good lives, IMO.

[ScreamingMeemie]

104. "penii"

:rofl:

I know, you meant for this to be a serious discussion, but I can't get past that without bursting into giggles. Call me juvenile