Dads and their concern for their daughters.

[redqueen]

Today a co-worker was telling me about one time when his 12-year-old son asked to stay late at a party. He said that that night, that he thought to himself, "Thank God I don't have daughters!"

What exactly is it that causes men to say these things?


He followed that up with a comment about how girls are "born knowing how to twist boys around their little fingers"... to which I simply responded that it was a myth that needs to die.


Anyway, what exactly is it that makes so many men seem so much more worried about daughters than sons?

I've seen the comments here on DU from dads who do have daughters... so that's why I'm asking actual dads as opposed to men who are simply (jokingly) glad that they don't have daughters.

[YOY]

1. The bad joke is that when you have a son in puberty you have only to worry about one penis.

When you have a daughter in puberty you have to worry about 4 billion...course mine is only 3.

I'm years before worrying and she already has her mommy's temper and independance...so I'm not too worried about being worried.

[EOTE]

12. I also have a 3 year old daughter.

And I think the reason that men tend to be more concerned about daughters than sons is because they remember what they were like in their teens and imagine that today's male teens are pretty much the same way. Most fathers didn't worry about being taken advantage of when they were teenagers, I'd imagine most had happy teenage years. But I'm guessing many of them imagine it wouldn't be the same for girls being pursued by hundreds of libidinous, teenaged males.

[SharonAnn]

142. BUt 18 years of his child support payments for every child he fathers.

[stopbush]

2. I have a 12-yr-old daughter and a 16-yr-old son, and I worry more about

my son doing the right thing than my daughter.

The father you quoted seems to see his children as sex objects or something even weirder. The truth is that kids are people, and they need to be treated and respected as such. Taking old wives tales and received opinion as the basis for how one regards their kids is both lazy and abusive.

[Iris]

106. if only we had the recommend function for replies to op's

I'd recommend this one.

[Xipe Totec]

3. If I had a daughter, we'd be outnumbered

There's only three men in my family and one woman (my wife).

That is barely even odds.

With one more female, we would be hopelessly outnumbered.



:P

[spanone]

4. don't know why, just do. they seem more vulnerable? we know how 'guys' think? i dunno

my son weighs around 210 and stands 6'2"

my daughter is 5'2" and 90 lbs.

[ZombieHorde]

5. Many males in the U.S. are told protecting women, especially their wives and daughters, from others

is their number one duty. We have been programed to think this way.

[Fleshdancer]

15. Not just in America, but in many cultures this is the case. n/t

[EFerrari]

22. And once the amount of violence against women all over the world

really registers, it begins to make sense.

[Cid_B]

154. Is that sexist? I don't know...

Do I have a problem with having been raised that way? No...

[AngryAmish]

187. Unlike all the other cultures where males think differently

Saudi Arabia, Sicily, China, India...

[raccoon]

189. And yet, other people's wives and daughters are fair game. nt

[unpossibles]

6. sexist double standard

Quite simply, if his son has sex, it'll likely result in an "atta boy!" type of reaction. Women are not allowed by society to have sex outside of wedlock, of course.

It's the same old slut/stud sexist double standard bullshit. Hell, I am a guy and my dad was the same way, so I benefited from this double standard bullshit, and I still think that's what it is.

[redqueen]

27. It seems more and more people are aware of the double standard...

but it seems we still see the it used against women far too often.

[regnaD kciN]

33. As I point out below, it's not so much "sexist" as "practical"...

...(which doesn't mean it isn't sexist as well). Put very simply: until recently, if a teen boy had sex, and got his partner pregnant, there would be plenty of ways in which he could deny responsibility and get off scot-free, while the girl's situation would be unavoidable and obvious to all. Had there been reliable DNA testing, and laws that took that into account and demanded paternal support, back several millennia ago, people would have long ago have been just as concerned about what "trouble" their sons could get into as they were about their daughters.

[redqueen]

35. See post #23. (nt)

[BlooInBloo]

88. Since women are the ones who get pregnant, the consequences of sex will pretty much always...

be greater for women.

Even in the best society. (Which we are very far from.)

[Liberal_in_LA]

150. But with kids there is more to worry about than pregnancy. I know more families with sons that

were arrested or got DUIs than families where the daughter got pregnant.

[dmr]

149. When I was a girl, the guys would joke

that they'd get 10 other guys to say they had sex with the girl to disprove paternity.

I use to wonder who all those other 10 guys were to put themselves out under scrutiny.

DNA has the last laugh on those same guys today.

[gatorboy]

36. Do you have kids?

[unpossibles]

130. No - but the double standard often continues throughout people's lives too

and not only from parents.

[Chemisse]

54. That's exactly what I was thinking.

I still remember when my father tried to explain to me why it was okay for a guy to have sex with girls, but that a girl had to wait until marriage. I pointed out that in order for a guy to have premarital sex, the girls he had sex with would also have to indulge in it. That's when I found out there were 'whores' - forever stained with their badness and never to be considered for marriage - just for that purpose, leaving the 'good girls' unmarred.

This was a long time ago but the underlying attitude about daughters vs sons seems to persevere.

[seabeyond]

58. no way. no, not really. you father with a straight face told you brother

could have sex but not you?

bah hahahah

that is funny.

didnt even kinda sorta have that given to me in any way

[Chemisse]

71. LOL - well this was in the late 1960s

I think many fathers have the same ideas now, but know better to conceal them.

[seabeyond]

74. that is funny. i was teen in 70's. but my father would go to mother and say

tell her she needs to wear a bra. then here comes mom with info. my dad didnt say shit. lol

he did tell me, (the ONLY thing) IF i ever got preg, dont be afraid to come to them.

which was nice.

[Chemisse]

78. That's really nice he said that - very progressive.

Many parents would (and still do!) think that kind of comment would somehow be giving permission to have sex.

[Shell Beau]

95. I think your parents are what many parents are actually like. These days

and those days.

All I can say is that I will educate my child on what is out there, what her options are, etc. I will also tell her that I want her to know she is the one who decides whether or not she is ready. I prefer her to be ready much later on, but that will not be up to me. She will, hopefully, know that she can come to me with any questions she may have and will be able to confide in me. But I also will be a parent. That friend shit is just that. Be your child's friend second, be their parent first. At least that will be my approach. And I am thankful that I have a little ways to go until that subject comes up. I am just enjoying her being a baby now.

[Chemisse]

156. That must be your daughter then

How very sweet she is.

I found that as my daughters grew through their teens, my mother role naturally evolved into a friend-like role as they took more charge over their lives. I gradually let go of my authority as their maturity grew. It is a delicate dance.

Now they are all grown and are my best friends.

[SoCalDem]

165. Parent-child friendships are for when the child is grown up

when the child is dependent on the parent, they cannot be their "friend"..

I had sons only, so we had different worries. I just reminded them that a few minutes of pleasure could result in them having to write a check to a woman for 18 (or more) years for a child she might turn against them, or who they may never have much contact with, until that "abandoned" child came looking for them , as an angry teenager:evilgrin:

or that they may catch a disease that could potentially kill them :evilgrin:

and that may be why we are still not grandparents :rofl:

[seabeyond]

167. i dont need to tell kids, but did in the past. be clear, i am not your friend, i am mama

why in the world would i give up that position for a mere friend when a mama is so much more, wink.

[lolly]

252. Why should they be mutually exclusive?

I would hope my grown daughters will be able to enjoy my company and think of me as a friend. When they're adults themselves, you should be able to relate to them as adults.

[seabeyond]

253. you are talking adults. i am talking kids. say what? nt

[spanone]

182. bullshit

[unpossibles]

186. Nice rebuttal. Very cogent argument

So you're saying a double standard does not exist between how society views male and female sexuality?

I want to come live on your planet. Is the weather nice too?

[raccoon]

190. Well said!

While society in general has become somewhat less disapproving of women having sex outside of marriage, most of society is still very judgemental in regards to women having UNCOMMITTED sex.

[Speck Tater]

7. I have two daughters, one son, two grandaughters and one grandson.

I never worried a whole lot about any of them. I just tried to instill as much common sense as I possible could, and then stepped back out of their way. My three grown children turned out fine without me micromanaging their teen lives. My grandkids are still works in progress, but I'm pretty sure they'll turn out fine too. :)

[Klukie]

8. The daughter will have to carry the child....

while the son will get to walk away. They are well aware that the burden of an unwanted pregnancy will lie mostly with the girl and by extension themselves.

[DesertRat]

9. That's it in a nutshell. n/t

[BoneDaddy]

177. Let's stop with the melodrama

and get down to brass tacks. Life isn't fair to all people and on this issue the bulk of the responsibility is on the woman whether you like it or not. Of course you teach accountability to both boys and girls but girls will ULTIMATELY have to be the ones who will bear the burden, and thus will have to be more accountable for birth control. Let's start accepting reality and stop with the blame game and act like adults.

[Klukie]

179. So you are agreeing with me?

I think you are or you are calling me melodramatic..not quite sure.

[BoneDaddy]

214. I am agreeing

with you. I unfortunately added the "handwringing" I see from some on this board to your post. My bad.

[glowing]

10. If you haven't talked to your kids and instilled the values you wish them

to use their heads and hearts with, then you already lost the battle when they get to that age.

However, the fear of misconduct towards a female in this society is greater than it is for males. Not that many women I know drop date rape drugs into mens drinks and carry them off to bed. Just dragging their corpse would be a problem in most cases.

[eissa]

11. I have those kinds of concerns for my daughter

She's only 10, but very tiny and of course, very cute :P There's a lot of sick people out there, you just worry about someone hurting her. I have similar concerns for my 13-yr. old son, but he's always been a good-size, always very tall and muscular for his age, so I always felt he could handle himself. With him I worry more about his impulsiveness and doing something stupid without thinking than having anything done to him.

[mitchum]

13. There are a lot of bad men out there

sad, but true

[HamdenRice]

14. Sons can't get knocked up

I realize a baby is the responsibility of both teenage parents, but in reality, the burden will fall on the girl and her family. Just look at Sarah Palin et al.

[redqueen]

23. What does your comment say about the sense of responsibility...

imparted by men onto their sons, if they 'expect' that they won't have to help with unplanned pregnancies?

And I could be mistaken, haven't paid that much attention, but I could have sworn that Levi was trying to be responsible and involved with his child.

[regnaD kciN]

38. It says, unfortunately...

...that, if people can get away with something, they will. Sadly, that's pretty much human nature. And, until the days of DNA testing, guys could generally "get away with something" pretty easily.

Actually, it says something more about the character of those teen boys (however few they might have been) back in the day who, when they had the full chance to say "She's lying -- I never did it with her" and have it stick, still chose to take responsibility and the future burdens that entailed.

[ejpoeta]

53. as a friend once said: men have fun, women have babies. nuff said.

girls get into 'trouble' while boys will be boys.

[Chemisse]

55. That person would never be a friend of mine.

I can't abide by sexist people.

[ejpoeta]

66. well, he had a point. women do have babies. and then end up taking care of them

and all that most of the time. it may not be right, but it is how it is for a lot of women. even if attitudes may be changing, there is still a lot of social engineering going on. I do not have any boys.... but I make sure my daughters know that they can do anything. I tell bob to take emy out and let her help him work on the car or other things he's working on. I don't want her thinking she is meant to take care of kids or do housework alone.... she can work outside and fix things and help build the deck etc.

[seabeyond]

75. not so damn easy for the guy. niece got preg. had four fucks. four different guys

waited to see who was the father. and the lucky one has had hell for two years, trying to be a father, not in family unit and paying child support.

so

though the girl does the preg part, and even maybe primary care taker, not a fun place for a guy to be, especially if he WANTS to be a part of his childs life

[ejpoeta]

132. that's true. but it's different now then it used to be. i couldn't believe

watching one of those tv movies about a mother trying to collect child support and no one would help her or make the guy pay it. I was shocked that it happened, but then again... maybe not so shocked. it's a lot harder for the guy to do that these days, though i know a few who seem to go out of their way to not have to pay any more than they have to if you know what i mean. there are the guys who step up to the plate and then somehow get screwed out of being part of their kids lives. that is not right!! The law needs to do something to try to keep these parents who use their kids as pawns from being able to do that. but how do you do that!!

[seabeyond]

138. texas seems to be pretty good about it. i am seeing more and more they are

giving the father his rights, regardless. i would often tell my niece, when she would cry about this or that. .... hey, you made your choices. as hard as it is to share, gotta. he is 50% of that baby and has rights. gotta be a part of her life. and it is hard for both my niece and the baby's father. not an easy situation

that is a huge lesson for my sons. they have watched nieces and nephews fuck up. they dont want to be there. they see the pain it causes all of them.

[Chemisse]

76. Sounds like my approach to mothering my daughters :)

I guess I just objected to the comment that boys have fun, suggesting that girls are NOT having fun.

Clearly the girls are stuck with the responsibility of the pregnancy and the baby, although the fathers are held to account nowadays too. 18 years of child support is nothing to sniff at.

[JackRiddler]

79. Please don't confuse the issue...

We are talking about why individual parents may be more protective of a daughter, as opposed to why the society as a whole has a double standard for boys as opposed to girls. Which is to say, the parents protecting the daughter are not automatically the same as the ones conveying the double standard to the sons. They can differ.

Adolescent girls are more often targeted by predators and more vulnerable to certain disasters. Even when they're smart and strong. Which is not to imply in the least that boys are never targeted, are invulnerable, or (for that matter) should be taught not to worry. Not at all.

[DatManFromNawlins]

108. You haven't ever been a 12 year old boy, have you?

This isn't about sense of responsibility. This is about a 12 year old suddenly getting ridiculously strong urges to do things that a year or two ago would have seemed nonsensical. Children of any age don't act responsibly until they can fully understand the impact of what it is that they're doing. If they don't understand it, then they aren't being responsible, they're simply doing what they're told.

How many 12 year old girls break their arms or legs or necks because they're trying to show off for the guys? How about vice versa?

When you fully understand that question, then you'll understand why he said what he said. He's correct.

[redqueen]

205. Sorry, but no.

The guy I work with was talking about a 12-year-old.

We're talking about the message such attitudes give out.

[HamdenRice]

162. It says a lot

Also, if you look at Levi's situation, it still not that untypical. Because of family conflicts, he's being marginalized as a father and the child care will fall on what's her name, while Levi will have to pay child support.

I'm not endorsing the situation, just describing it.

[redqueen]

206. I wasn't aware...

I thought he and whatshername shared custody 50-50. I do this with my ex, and I know other couples that manage to do the same.

I hope that becomes the norm. It's bad enough that kids have to endure their families being split... IMO they shouldn't be denied a fair amount of time with both parents.

[BoneDaddy]

216. Absolutely

women NEED to be more accountable than the men because of the reality of the situation. Does that mean you do not make men accountable, absolutely not, they should be, but when the ultimate price (pregnancy) falls on the woman, she needs to be more accountable to ensure that this does not happen.

It is the difference between reality and the fantasy that some people subscribe to in here.

[seabeyond]

218. i have seen threee horror stories up close, my 2 brothers and niece,

where it is nothing to sneeze about where the male is concerned.

i no longer see it mostly on female, and male can walk

my two brothers and the man that got niece preg all want to be a part of childs life, all want to be a part of the raising and all three went thru hell fighting for the right

it has shown my sons, as they were raised during these battles, what THEY do not want.

we can look at what it does to the female. but really fucks a lot fo males too.

[BoneDaddy]

220. Yes,

it does and I certainly do not want to minimize that, but your position is often a rare one in here.

Typically I see:
Men=bad, have it always easy, no responsibility
Women= wonderful, always more difficult, all the responsibility

And simply is not a true reflection of life.

[seabeyond]

221. i agree. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

16. My dad says:

No man wants his daughter to grow up to be the kind of woman he likes.

And no man wants his daughter to marry the kind of man he is.

[ZombieHorde]

18. I disagree with both of those statements.

[redqueen]

19. I really hope that's a joke. (nt)

[Nuclear Unicorn]

25. What he means is:

Men like women who are sexually "adventurous" but they want their daughters to be reserved.

And since men are--by his estimation--sexually "adventurous" by nature no man wants his daughter to marry such a man.




I dunno, I could be wrong; I've only known him for about 21 years.

[redqueen]

26. So that would make it the lame old sexual double standard.

Another thing that I'd expect we all would be more than sick of.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

34. I scolded him about it being a double standard...

...but the OP was also addressing double-standards. I simply related the one I grew-up with.

Don't be too hard on my dad though, he's a good guy and I'm not beholden to old cliches. FWIW: I'm sure I've broken his heart more than once but he still says he loves me when I go to see him.

[Schema Thing]

48. he just doesn't realize that women (girls) are every bit

as sexually adventurous as men.


(and you're probably not the person who should disabuse him of that notion)

[ejpoeta]

57. only if you don't shame it out of them first and teach them that their bodies are dirty

and sex is bad bad bad... don't talk about it, and even if you are doing it you should feel dirty and ashamed about it. that's how i felt i was raised. we NEVER discussed anything having to do with sex. I slept in a bra at my friends houses. I was so self conscious!! and to this day I struggle with trying to be able to talk to even my own husband about sex. I can't tell him what i want because I can't talk about it. I DON't want my kids to feel that way. there has got to be a way to teach them to have respect for themselves and their bodies and have self respect and confidence AND to be able to feel ok with their bodies and their feelings about things.

[seabeyond]

60. oooooh. i am finding this thread really informative

really? that is sad

hey

i have two boys. we have been talking sex, body, relationship, respect, character... all kinds of stuff. son 15 adn doing good. he gets it. example and talk. but then my boys talk all the time about everything. can be social, political or damn guns, which i dont care about at all.

just listen.

it can be done

[ejpoeta]

73. thanks. it's hard, but i do listen. if emy (10) asks me a question i will answer it.

When I was pregnant with my second daughter she asked me questions about how the baby will get out of my belly and such. I didn't put it off... i told her... age appropriate. She knows a lot from reading though.... the doctor gave her a book about body parts and there was a reproductive section in there. she talks about the sperm and the egg without batting an eyelash but i don't think she really understands what she is talking about at this point. If she asks me about it, I will do my best to answer her though. Not sure about pushing the subject and having 'the talk' though... i have heard her age is the time to do that. I definitely want to not be stuttering or turning red... I want her to know that things are natural and feelings are natural and the most important thing she can do is to be self confident and have self respect and to not look to others to get those things. Do what she loves and enjoys as far as her reading and learning and growing.... and anyone who loves her will be willing to wait and not push her into anything. I won't know how I am doing until later though.... part of me wants to lock her in her room til she's 18!! but what good would that do. I just have to do my best and trust that she will trust herself.

[PSzymeczek]

100. I bought "How Did I Get Here"

for my daughter when she was 8. She's going on 31, and still has it.

[ejpoeta]

133. i'll look into it. thanks so much!!

[seabeyond]

31. so this is what your father taught you. and we wonder why the issues are still alive and well. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

40. Well...

...there's what you're taught...

...and then there's what you do.


:evilgrin:

[seabeyond]

45. wink

and i know, you love your dad. he is a good guy.

again probably something stupid he heard and the way to bond with the son. unfortunately it is these stupid, with out thinking thru, that causes so much of the problem.

[Chemisse]

59. That may be, but the question is, what do you make YOUR daughter do? nt

[BoneDaddy]

281. what a sad way of viewing women and oneself

that is too bad

[Creena]

17. My father must have missed the memo.

His only concern was how he got stuck with a shitty daughter. I don't know; I wouldn't mind the overly protective of dad you described.

[ZombieHorde]

20. I am sorry your dad is lame. nt

[truebrit71]

251. I only have one daughter..would be more than happy to have a second..

...although several of my daughter's girlfirends refer to me as 'Dad' as well...

[seabeyond]

255. my brother a single father and steps too close to the line or literally over line has teenage girls

at his home all the time and all hours of the day, with two teenage boys and they call him dad. creeps me out

not into that at all

he tells me how the girls say dad.... and i say bullshit and watch what you are doing

amazing me the parents actually let those girls over there about they are no more parents than he

[Skittles]

21. men know what men do

[redqueen]

24. That's what always pops up in my mind when I hear such comments.

But then that makes me wonder... why is it so often defended as just 'boys being boys'... why, if it is recognized as being so awful that men would worry, is it not something they'd think just might need to change?

[krabigirl]

61. Yeah, and like girls can't handle it? lol

[redqueen]

199. What do you mean by that? (nt)

[27inCali]

68. expecting something to be prevalent

is not the same as endorsing it.

[redqueen]

200. True... however if it's not endorsed, I'd expect less of the "we just can't help it" crap.

Claiming it's just a case of "boys will be boys" is pretty much the same thing as endorsing it, IMO.

[Skittles]

151. they don't give a fuck until it's their daughter, sister, mother, etc

then it fucking matters

[raccoon]

194. A-effing-men!!! nt

[BoneDaddy]

288. You do not have to be a genius

to see what you think about men. your opinion means nothing

[redqueen]

203. That's how it seems to me, too, Skittles.

And I wonder why they can't make the connection in their heads, and stop saying stupid shit like "we're hard wired that way".

[Scout]

254. because then they WOULD HAVE to change, do something about it....

as long as people believe the lie that they're hard wired that way, and just can't help themselves then they won't have to "pay" for their bad behavior, others will.

Boys will be boys, but too many of them will be assholes if you let them get away with it.

[seabeyond]

256. my dad, hubby and two sons call bullshit on that. my two brothers claim hardwired

i will stick with my dad, hubby and two sons, wink

[BoneDaddy]

287. Sounds like you would make the same choice if you had

the power...funny how transparent you become, when you think you are right.

[BoneDaddy]

289. wow what an angry

child you are. Stop spending time on this message board and get some therapy

[BoneDaddy]

282. no we dont

I know it must comfort you that we all conspire against women on a daily basis, plotting our way to continually keep you down, but it simply is not like that at all. You have created a fantasy of how you think men act and you couldn't be more wrong about us.

[Skittles]

284. bullshit

you don't think they main reason men react with horror over anyone dating their daughters has anything to do with the fact THEY KNOW WHAT MEN THINK AND DO? Get a clue. And stop assuming I hate men - I have five brothers and served in the military - I'd be more comfortable any day with a group of guys than with a group of gals,

[BoneDaddy]

285. then act like we are not the monsters you portray us as

that simple, unless your brothers were less then the men they should have been. If they were, I am sorry, but that is not US. I have two sons, I will not let them be defined by your pain.

[Xenotime]

28. It's a problem with men not being controlled as much as they should.

This society hasn't done enough and greater effort needs to be taken to change men. That way women will be safer.

[redqueen]

32. I agree. We tell girls that they must adjust to some boys' bad behavior...

and act as if those boys can't be expected to behave any differently.

Of course, no one is claiming that we can make all boys (or girls) into perfect beings, but to act as if it's all the fault of boys' biology, and there's no point in even trying?

That's absolute, total and complete bullshit, IMO

[proteus_lives]

39. Please explain.

"It's a problem with men not being controlled as much as they should."

What does that mean?

[seabeyond]

46. i chilled on that one too. but i think more expectation THEY can control self

i certainly hope it isnt about controlling a man, shudder at the thought, no desire. and i hope that we arent wanting to change men. maybe educate is a good thing.

[proteus_lives]

111. Yeah, kinda creepy.

I don't want to control anyone. I don't think men should control women or women should control men. Education and self-confidence will lead to self-control in both genders.

[unpossibles]

137. Thank you. We just all need to be more understanding of the idea that people are people

Yes, we have differences in how we do things, but we need to be honest with ourselves about how we treat other people and ourselves, and how our learned prejudices may be affecting that.

[seabeyond]

139. isnt that the truth. nt

[redqueen]

204. I took it to mean that girls are told to alter their behavior... boys get the message

that "boys will be boys" and therefore piggish behavior is just fine and dandy.

I do hope they come back to explain though. This thread has been very informative, despite a few troublemakers' attempts to disrupt it with their standard asshattery.

[regnaD kciN]

29. Sorry, but it's bloody simple...

Anyway, what exactly is it that makes so many men seem so much more worried about daughters than sons?

It dates back both to times long ago (when gender roles were strictly defined) and not so long ago (when neither contraception nor DNA testing was around).

In long-ago times, when the "purpose" of a woman was to make a "good marriage" (in which it was required that the bride be a virgin) and become a wife and mother, a moment's getting "carried away" could spoil any such chance, and leave the daughter as "unmarriagable," an ongoing burden on her family.

In the not-so-long-ago times, a similar "loss of control" could result in an "illegitimate" pregnancy. Without any reliable way to prove the identity of the father, that would result in the resulting child being a burden on the family, often at a time when the parents (who now would be forced to raise a new baby) were themselves getting old and past the time for child-rearing.

And, in either case, the all-too-public situation would make clear that the father was a failure as a parent, for not being able to properly raise his daughter to take her proper place in society.

I'm not saying that there are real, modern-day reasons why one would not be more concerned with one's daughter getting hurt (emotionally or otherwise) at a young age, but it seems clear that a lot of concern about teen girl's sexuality is driven by carried-over notions from the past, assumptions that gain their power from being an unexamined part of the "collective unconscious."

[Fumesucker]

30. I have a daughter, two granddaughters and a grandson.

I didn't particularly worry about my daughter and I don't worry any more about my granddaughters than my grandson.

If you give kids the right training early in life there really isn't any point in worrying about them, they will more than likely do the right thing and if they don't there isn't much you can do about it anyway.

It doesn't hurt that my daughter would make a good drill instructor, she definitely doesn't take any crap off anyone. :)

[proteus_lives]

37. Probably a double-standard.

Fathers most likely remember their own behavior and thoughts as teenage boys. Is it sexist? Probably.

"He followed that up with a comment about how girls are "born knowing how to twist boys around their little fingers"... to which I simply responded that it was a myth that needs to die."

All girls and women? No. Some girls and women? Yes. That's like saying "All men want only one thing" while not true, does have a kernel of truth.

From my personal experience, I've seen that fathers worry more about daughters and mothers worry more about sons. Don't know why.

I think it's important to raise boys and girls as equals but would I worry more about a daughter in certain situations? I honestly can't say that I wouldn't.

[seabeyond]

47. but wouldnt we want to put an end to the myth of girls twist around finger

and boys have no control. neither one works for us as a whole, either gender.

i dont want a gilr to learn to use her sexuality to get what she wants from boy. that is as offensive to me is a boy dehumanizing a girl.

(didnt mean to hit on two of your post, just happened. REALLY, not stalking, leave me alone)

[proteus_lives]

110. No worries.

I agree that we should put an end to the general myth and reinforce that sexually/emotionally manipulative behavior from either sex is unacceptable. But the problem is we'll always have jerks of both genders.

[redqueen]

207. It's not the sexism of this kind of comment that strikes me so much as the

idea that if they remember their own behavior and thoughts... and they think it's a problem when aimed at their daughters... then why the continuing "boys will be boys" crap?

I mean, they're not worried about what the boys are thinking, right? Of course we can't expect teenagers to control those feelings. It seems that kind of concern must be triggered by a concern over possible actions. Maybe I'm wrong about that though.

Anyway if it's actions, then I'd think men would want to stop saying that 'boys will be boys' stuff and instead start teaching boys to alter their behavior the same way we do to girls. Not that it will work 100% of the time, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect more than the 'forget it, it's hard wired' approach.

And I agree that there's a kernel of truth re: manipulative women... but the way he said it was offensive and idiotic.

Also agree re: being more concerned about one gender or the other depending on the situation.

Thanks for your thoughtful answer. :)

[noiretextatique]

41. in my family

the girls were raised, and the boys were spoiled and treated like kings. the consequences: me and my two sisters went to college, but our brothers became drug addicts. my father was a sexist jerk who always made distinctions between the boys and the girls, but the boys turned out to be shiftless losers whereas the girls were model citizens.

[Shell Beau]

42. My dad was super protective. I mean SUPER protective.

My daddy was the one known not to mess with by the teenage boys. But my dad had bad feelings towards women for a while. His mother abandoned his brother and him when they were 7 and 8 years old. That is what I always thought was the reason behind it. But I think mostly, men remember their teenage years. And they feel like they know what a lot of guys think. :shrug:

[Chemisse]

63. I think the super protective fathers have a need to control

Their child, as well as her sexuality.

[Shell Beau]

70. My dad was never a control freak though.

That may be true for some dads, but my dad had a very rough upbringing, and I think he wanted the exact opposite for his children. So he was a little stricter than most I think for that reason. But he has turned into a big ole teddy bear as he has gotten older. Age can mellow a person I believe.

[Chemisse]

77. Aww that is nice.

And I should not have oversimplified. I realized right after I posted that I was directly dissing your dad!

[Shell Beau]

81. Oh, no problem. I think what you said is probably true a lot of the times!

:)

[redqueen]

208. So it's a concern re: what boys are *thinking*? That seems odd.

Thoughts are harmless things as long as they're not acted on.

[Shell Beau]

234. I know, but I think dads don't want someone having those thoughts

about their "little girls". Not sure why that is.

[redqueen]

244. Seems like a manifestation of the madonna/whore or virgin/slut double standard.

It's okay for boys to think those things about 'bad' girls, but not 'good' girls like their own.

[WonderGrunion]

43. Simple odds

If a girl at a party is slipped a drug in her drink, it's likely to end in rape of the girl. If a boy is slipped a drug in his drink, he is likely to wake up missing his wallet. It's pretty easy to see which outcome is worse.

[Echo In Light]

44. It's like apple pie, and John Wayne...this bizarre drive some men have for NOT wanting ....

... their daughter's to have a normally functioning, healthy sex life.

Whenever we've call to attend some extended family gathering - lots of beer and sports-as-religion type people. In other words, common, 'normal' people - I end up hearing some twit ramble on about this type of ridiculously neurotic BS.

It's as if Daddy just can't take the notion that his Princess will, as most of our species does, begin to take more and more of an interest in being a sexual being as she ages/matures. And yes, we have a daughter. And no, sex isn't a 'dirty' thing in our house. When she reaches the dating age she'll be well informed and educated, but more importantly, will have grown up in a home where she had us, her parents, as a living, loving example ... so, why would we be all pinched up over the idea that she's going to eventually meet someone she'll develop feelings for, and eventually engage in what is a significant aspect of the human condition re how we as a species express love for one another?

[Schema Thing]

49. I agree with that. And would add that it's a perverse need to own

and control the daughter too.

All these comments about "men remember what they were like" are dancing around the issue that they also know what women/girls are like, and besides, unless you were a rapist, you weren't so bad. The truth is that we humans tend to like to control other people, *especially* our spouses and daughters, and more *especially* when it comes to sex.

To the extent we can get over that tendency, we're all better off.

[seabeyond]

50. agreed. my parents did none of that with us. they left us to do.

two boys and me the youngest girl. like other parents said, they were confidence in how they raised us. paid off.

[Xicano]

51. There are unique concerns to have for both sexes and I think girls get the short end of the stick

and I think its not only unfair, but also unfounded.

While parents might have to worry about dozens of boys lusting getting into their daughter's pants. They should equally worry about their sons trying to get into someone else's daughter's pants.

Girls are statistically far less likely to get into serious trouble with the law than boys. Girls are statistically far less likely than boys to kill themselves in an auto accident because of aggressive driving.

Boys only don't get stuck having to physically go through a pregnancy. IMO, Girls are less of a concern than boys.

[redqueen]

209. Agreed... and what message might that send to boys?

That they mean less? They're worth less?

It's just awful, IMO.

[TransitJohn]

52. It's simple really

Guys know that other guys are gonna be thinking about getting into their female children's pants all the time, because they're guys.

[seabeyond]

62. i am confused. girls dont wanna get in the guys pants? if that is the case, am i worried for sons

that some girl MIGHT wanna get in his pants?

[Chemisse]

67. So what is so wrong with that?

Our daughters likely want to have sex too. Fathers just want to deny their daughters are sexual beings.

[BlooInBloo]

80. You fell for the trap, sucker. Now they're going to turn your *describing* the situation..

into your *endorsing* the situation, and rip you apart.

:P

Never, ever fall for this sort of thing.

[TransitJohn]

90. Yeah, it was pretty obvious after the fact

I should know better, it's not like I'm a DU noob. Silly me for taking the OP's question at face value. They just wanted to point out that some men have hang ups about their daughters being sexual creatures.

[BlooInBloo]

91. "taking the OP's question at face value" - hahahahaa!

[seabeyond]

93. not me. lol. i have foudn it interesting. but i wasnt raised with a father that

made any difference between brothers and i, as far as sex was concerned. so hadnt been consideration. and i really would not have expected it considering all i read on so many threads about sexual freedom for our girls.

so i have been really surprised. seems like a lot fo the answers are just knee jerk, but probably arent many fathers realities. or daughters for that matter

i have just found the conversation interesting.

[redqueen]

210. So... it's about thoughts? Concern over what boys are thinking?

That seems silly, but it makes me wonder... don't men claim they're thinking about sex with various women a lot of the time?

Is that not bad? Is it only bad when it's *their* daughter who is the subject of those thoughts?

[BoneDaddy]

283. Wow, what a sad view you have of yourself

but please stop projecting it on all men. Sure we are sexual creatures, but that sounds like your fantasy...

[BlooInBloo]

56. When you have a boy, you worry about one dick. When you have a girl, you worry about them all...

As a friend of mine with a daughter put it.

[BoneDaddy]

286. wow, instead of raising strong, aware daughters, you

condemn all men. Wow

[Matariki]

64. It comes from a time when the burden (and misplaced shame) of pregnancy fell soley on the girl

I think parents of boys have just as much to worry about. Perhaps more, as their sons have no say over whether they will be a parent or not once they get someone pregnant. That can be a real change in plans for someone starting out in life.

[seabeyond]

69. i feel a huge responsibility raising my boys. lots to learn.... on both sides. nt

[27inCali]

65. maybe it's just a stupid stereotype

or maybe has a logical basis.

boys tend to be a little bigger heavier etc, and are typically encouraged from an early age to be more rough and tumble and able to defend themselves if physically accosted by someone.

girls tend to be a little smaller and lighter and are typically encouraged from an early age to be sugar and spice and everything nice and probably a lot less likely able to defend themselves from physical attack.

for example, I'm about fifty pounds heavier than my wife and played hockey as a kid, I've been sucker punched before by a guy about a hundred pounds heavier than me and been able to bounce back and defend myself, I think mostly because I spent so much time as a kid being to taught to be tough and able to ignore pain and fight back. I think if the same guy decided to kick the shit out of my wife, for all the fieriness of her personality, I doubt she would hold her own, she just would have either the physical strength or the preconditioning to deal with such a situation.

I am a father of a 3 year old daughter, and truth be told, though the best method of keeping your kid of either sex safe is to inform them, when my daughter is of age to be going out on her own, I will definitely be promoting in her mind the wisdom of having a few physically imposing and trust worthy guy friends go along with her to defend her is some jerk gets out of line.

you may think that's sexist, but my mom has told me stories about being in college as a young woman and having a lot of negative experiences that could have been a lot worse if she didn't have some buddies on the football team available to step in occasionally and insure that guys were showing appropriate respect for her personal space.

I think most dad's worrying about their daughters are more worried about what some scumbag might try to do to their daughter as opposed to not trusting their daughter because of sexism. At least that's how I see it.

[seabeyond]

72. i think the danger thing is valid. the boys can have sex girls shouldnt isnt.

but parents of boys have the issue too, cause boys do stupid ass shit with each other. but hear ya

[iris27]

102. Or how about, instead of telling your daughter she needs men to defend her,

you encourage HER as she grows up to "be more rough and tumble and able to defend if physically accosted by someone," and less "sugar and spice and everything nice".

Worrying more about what some scumbag might try to do to a daughter than to a son is the logical end result of the very sexist differences in the way we bring up boy children vs. girl children.

[seabeyond]

105. but my boys never had any desire to fight either. i dont. none. couldnt make me.

and my boys dont. i tried getting them into self defense and just not interested. they have found other ways dealing with situations that dont result in fighting.

[iris27]

176. Yeah, but even for boys who aren't interested in fighting, I don't think

people worry as much for their safety, which is still a double standard. I'm a woman who has dealt with some hairy situations in ways that don't result in fighting. But starting as a young teen, I also deliberately worked to project an air of "don't F with me" that I don't see in a lot of other women, and that attitude is a large part of why trouble tends not to find me in the first place now.

I think we need to be socializing girls to be more honest and less accommodatingly polite, so that guys like George Sodini get told, "I won't date you because you are giving off a very creepy and threatening vibe," instead of "you seem like a really nice guy, but I'm just not looking for a relationship right now."

[seabeyond]

178. i agree. assertive, i have always been. not being intimidated is easy for me.

meeting eyes, going off feel all good stuff.

we raise girls to be nice and not speak out even if they are uncomfortable.

my 12 yr old nice and friend went to dinner with a 40 yr old friend of mine. they came back with a story, and i was sooooo pissed.

the waiter, in 40s poured niece water adn rubbed crotch on her, purely to dominate. creepy, ass, pig. i asked niece what they did, and she said nothing, they were afraid

i got hold of friend and told her what bullshit they all got intimidated, lowered eyes and allowed. she said car parked far away, afraid of something happening

i told her and the girls, what was taught those girls was all wrong. i would not have been nice. i would have been loud. i would of humiliated man. i would have gone to management

and i would nto have taught niece to just allow....

i am still pissed at friend that she allowed this lesson for the girls.

[JANdad]

172. Or...we could live in the real world

and realize that in 99% of any match-up (man vs. woman) the woman will lose in a physical fight...

[redqueen]

211. I see your point. I don't think it's sexist to recognize the dangers...

however as other people have pointed out... boys are more likely to be hurt in car accidents, in fights, or just while doing stupid things.

[Xithras]

82. I think it's the fear of having to raise a grandchild.

Few teenagers of either sex are in a position to financially support a baby, so in nearly all teen pregnancies where the baby is kept, the financial responsibility for raising that child ends up falling to the parents of the child with primary custody, which is usually the mother. The parents are also aware that the daughter will have a disastrous life if she doesn't finish her education (including higher ed) which will impose a lot of responsibility on them as well.

Personally, my teen daughter knows that my household has an expectation that any non-terminated teen pregnancies will end in an adoption. We wouldn't support our teen daughter keeping a baby. I know she's going to have sex and am not going to freak out over the idea, but she knows that any pregnancies will be solely her responsibility to raise. Since we're open about birth control, that shouldn't be an issue anyway.

[absyntheminded]

83. Father of 5 young girls (women)...

Know the odds and statistics and also used to be a hormonal teenage/20 sumthing boy, not gonna play the odds. Worry about my daughters everyday (13-24 now).. Still agree with some of the other posts, father's of boys have one penis to worry about, with five girls, I have half the penis's in the mil+ city to worry about.

[seabeyond]

86. why are you worrying about any of the penis's

why arent the daughters and sons on contraceptive and using condoms?

are you saying no to sex? is that the worry. or repercussions.

i dont get that stupid ass one penis or a million.

can you explain it to me please. have heard thru out thread and just dawning on me, not getting it

[absyntheminded]

99. No, don't get me wrong..

Your points have merit, myself and Mom are very proactive on those fronts. But the statistics of women who are victimized (raped or otherwise) is appalling. We have a very strong family, I'm a 23 yr retired vet, on my 2nd career, Mom's successful too, but no matter how much info, discipline, and guidance you may provide - you never really know and can't help but be worried. If your not worried, I doubt you have 5 girls. To be honest I'd be concerned with son's as well, but I can't speak to that (no boys). I would only be able to reference my own experience - on my own since 17 - made good and bad decisions, but did OK (quite well really).

[seabeyond]

103. i am with you on that. i would be more worried with daughter on the simple difference in strength

and ability to fight. i am female, and have no desire, huge yuk, to be violent. so already i have a weakness one on one with male. i absolutely agree, that would be a greater worry with a daughter, and violence in general committed on female.

i getcha on that.

and absolutely there are the concerns with boys too. i have two, so i assure you there are.

i always said glad i didnt have daughter, would screw her up, more cause of what society are doing to our girls and so very young, sexualizing them. objectifying them

but i am not even worried about that any more. they are teaching boys to objectify. and i have decided it is in the parenting and parenting does rule over peers. good, connected, respectful relationship with child really does have an effect on the kids. so i am not nearly so afraid fo that as i was

[rucky]

84. Because all dads were once preteen boys.

[absyntheminded]

85. Not to worried about the

Pre-teeners, (yeah - I was one of those too, as are all Dad's) but the 15+ is when I start looking at them just a bit differently.

[seabeyond]

89. lol. i am especially not worried about preteen, i agree. so

when you say worried about the teen, 15=. worried about what? that he will want sex? doesnt/isnt your daughter gonna want sex too? now i am confused. i wasnt, cause just going with standard comments we always heard. but heard it one too many times, and not getting it.

[seabeyond]

87. again, seems to be like standard answer. i have both preteen boys and teen boy

i think you guys are making it something that well... is blown way overboard. unless we are talking violence to a girl, (and i am sure that is not all the males giving this answer), i dont see what was such the big deal about you guys as preteen or teen. necessarily any different from the girl.

[redqueen]

212. And? What's so terrible?

I just don't get it. Most preteen boys aren't out raping girls... so what's the concern about?

[DainBramaged]

92. Trust, something my beautiful Daughter and I had from early on

when I said be home by X hour, she was. As she got older the time extended. When she turned 18, she STILL was home relatively early and NEVER stayed out overnight until she started college.

Trust. We hads it and still do.

[seabeyond]

96. that is all the difference. you are right. nt

[JerseygirlCT]

104. That's my son and I

and that was the way I was with my parents, as well.

Trust, and respect. He's never had a curfew, per se. He does know that we'd be worried if he was unexpectedly out late - and calls. Always. Not because he has to, but because he cares.

Of course, cell phones weren't a possibility when I was the teen, (in fact, a toll call was what was made to the next town over!), but I didn't abuse the trust my parents had in me.

[lumberjack_jeff]

94. Simple. Society is more protective of girls.

Boys fend for themselves.

[seabeyond]

97. if true, and not a reality in our house, but that is very sad, cause boys

need the guidence as much as the girls. hence maybe one of the challenges we need to meet.

i dont know that it is true. i havent seen evidence of it. i see some parents parent, and that is both genders. and some parents do not parent, and that is both genders.

[redqueen]

213. IMO that is massively fucked up.

Massively.

It's bad enough we tell boys they can't have feelings... which seems to me to be close enough to telling them they can't be fucking human, basically... but to then send the message that they're, what... somehow not worth worrying about?

I just don't get it.

[gbate]

235. Studies have shown that boys are actually more at-risk than girls .

More accidents
More risky behavior
More drop out

[lunatica]

98. The whole issue of violence against women in the world should ring a bell

Men have an advantage in this world. Women mostly don't. The reason men worry about their daughters probably has a lot to do with violence perpetrated against women. It's the same reason they worry about their wives. Rape, beatings, and cultural oppression to the point of mutilation, murder, etc. against women is way too common in the world.

It's not just about sexual activity. Women are more vulnerable to crimes. Fathers aren't just having a double standard moment. They feel their sons have an advantage because boys aren't normally thought of as victims of violence from girls, although anyone can be victimized. Girls, on the other hand are always seen as easily victimized by boys.

[absyntheminded]

101. Thanks..

Very much - it's awful and real. There ya go questioners, lunatica pretty much summed it up.

[seabeyond]

107. i agree. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

112. Violent crime victims by gender.

[Mixopterus]

120. Yeah

People forget that violent death is the domain of men.

[lumberjack_jeff]

121. In my experience, they find that surprising. n/t

[seabeyond]

123. it isnt unknown. males fighting each other is common. they dont associate the same

though like they do male on female.

i think it is more of that

boys will be boys, cant help themselves and biological pat answers bullshit.

[lumberjack_jeff]

145. Reconcile this for me.

You disagreed with my earlier statement. You said that you don't think that society is more protective of girls.

You know that males are the more often the victims of violent crime.

Given those two phenomena, explain the purpose of the violence against women act.

[seabeyond]

163. i didnt say society was not more protective of female. the kind of violence

against female is different and for different reasons thatn the male on male violence. they are just not the same. the purpose of the violence against women i would imagine, and just a guess, is in the past it was a wink and nod with that violence. allowable, acceptable. it is the same reason hate crime has been seperated out from other crime.

[seabeyond]

122. nah. not those of us with sons. i posted way above that boys have male on male violence

so with both you guys.

[lunatica]

124. They obviously didn't count domestic violence in your graph

I don't even have to provide a link to see that's a bunch of hooey.

[seabeyond]

125. i dont know. lots of male on male gang death ect.... and just violence, not death. look how much

guys fight.

[lunatica]

126. I'm not claiming men don't get assaulted violently

And I believe boys are victimized much more than we know, but by the same standard I do believe that most women keep silent about their abuse. Especially when they're children being abused by males. As it turns out both boys and girls seem to be abused mostly by adult males.

[Mixopterus]

127. Well

We kind of have to base our opinions on what we know, not speculation about what could be. With that in mind, we have to conclude that more men are the victims of violent crime than your as of yet unconfirmed victims of domestic violence.

[lunatica]

131. Yeah, sure.

whatever.... Believe what you will.

[seabeyond]

140. it doesnt have to be a competition. i have never understood the need for it

to be a competition. the reality is, females have to be careful with the violence agiant them, and it comes in all forms. and my boys are aware the risks they take as males, and doing their best to avoid those.

awareness and being smart and luck....

[redqueen]

217. It isn't a competition.

Making it into some kind of competition is just stupid.

Do we want fairness or retaliation & vengeance?

Can't speak for others, but I just want fairness.

[lumberjack_jeff]

144. Yes they do.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/sdvv.pdf

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/vsx2.htm

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/gender.htm

The fact that it doesn't mesh with the conventional wisdom doesn't make it wrong.

Men are 54% more likely to be the victim of a violent crime. 25.6 per 1000 vs 16.6 per 1000

For male children, it is much worse.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/apvsvc.pdf

Data on page 5

[Mixopterus]

153. This just occured to me

The very fact that conventional wisdom states that women are more vulnerable to crime and experience more violent crime stems from their status as people to be protected by men and therefore society.

So why insist women get victimized more and are more liable to not be able to defend themselves if the data doesn't say so? Curious, it's almost as if some feminists want all of the privileges of the previous system without any of the drawbacks, which is simply not equitable.

[seabeyond]

164. but you made a false statement. society is protective of women until they are not

protective of woman. there were laws on the book allowing an husband to abuse wives. rape was ignored or blamed on the victim. because of male power over female, in the law.

[Mixopterus]

261. Right

I'll be more open to your position if/when women are eligible for the draft.

[seabeyond]

262. ahhhhh. now i need to shut up until draft. and you are susceptible to draft?

where is this draft that i have to shut up and wait for.

[Mixopterus]

263. Actually

Yeah, I am in the prime age to be subject to a draft.

My basic point is that I would be more open to your position that there is an attitude of institutional violence towards women and a general disregard for the lives of women if they were subject to dying the same messy, horrible, and agonizing deaths that we (men) have had to endure in our oh so lovely patriarchy which I am, apparently, benefiting from. The record shows that we throw away the lives of men while maintaining some sort of protection of women even in the harshest of societies. I am simply not buying the position that women are subject to more institutional violence, as the evidence simply does not suggest that.

As I said before in a different thread: Unjust systems hurt EVERYONE.

[seabeyond]

264. firstly.... there is no draft so you are subject to NOTHING. secondly

dude....

i have been in a position of support for the violence against male. because i dont dismiss violence against female in some stupid, immature battle against the two gender does not mean i cannot focus on the ills of society for BOTH genders at the same time.

[Mixopterus]

265. What are you talking about?

ALL men within a certain age in the United States are subject to a draft in a time of a so-called "National Emergency". At age eighteen I was forced to submit my personal information to the SSI which will (theoretically) call me up if conscription was ever re-enacted. The difference between me and a female of my age is that whenever the powers that be will it to be so, I can be subject to a messy, violent death or mutilation while the female is not unless she volunteers. Therefore, as a general rule the system already has a preference to subject men to institutional violence.

There has been an historical trend to submit women to inequality, social and legal, but not violence in the same rate that men experience it.

[seabeyond]

266. well fine dude, you found a way to dismiss murder rape and mutilation of females

fuckin fine impression as an upstanding human being.

bully for you

[Mixopterus]

267. Strawman

That was not my argument. I was contesting an institutional bias of violence towards women.

[seabeyond]

269. bullshit strawman. POINT. btw, good dismissing and ignoring the MILLIONS

that have stood up for the soldiers over these wars, over these years fighting for their lives even though they volunteered. good of you to ignore that fight in the 60's and 70's standing up for those being drafted in the MILLIONS. and good of you to ignore all the people working on behalf of male on MALE violence every single fuckin day.

go crawl away and whine about how rough you have it

thinking of possibly being drafted and how unfair life is.

[Mixopterus]

272. Hyperbole and more strawmen

Perhaps you can point to my claim that stated:
If men experience more institutional violence than women then violence towards women is irrelevant

I didn't state any such thing, it wasn't even an implied premise. My argument is entirely contesting the claim that women experience more institutional violence than men, which is simply NOT true. That is all.

If you can't rationally argue the counter-point that women do experience more institutional violence than men then please back out of the argument gracefully instead of resorting to histrionics. Thanks in advance.

[seabeyond]

274. nothing more stupid than competing over what gender male comments more mayham on.

there is nothing as stupid, firstly

i never compared the two. why? cause it is fuckin stupid. go over the posts that i have made. never would i reduce myself to this petty nah nah shit

and yes, you dismissed female violence. you said until women are drafted like men (though men arent) you wont consider what i say

assinine, again

[Mixopterus]

276. Dismissive of violence itself?

Most certainly not, all interpersonal violence is wrong.

Dismissive of claims of an institutional bias of violence towards women? Most certainly, the evidence does not allow that conclusion.

[redqueen]

219. This is why this double standard doesn't make any sense.

It seems like another way to tell boys to just suck it up.

Girls can cry... girls must be protected. Boys don't get to have feelings... and if they get hurt... what, I guess we just expect them to 'be a man' and shrug it off.

I get the impression that some men like it that way... and that any attempt to allow boys to have feelings, or to protect them, is 'feminizing' them.

I think the feminist movement is getting a lot of heat for trying to stop this macho programming. And while I'm not a member of NOW, I do consider that very much a part of my being a feminist... and I do think 'macho men' blame feminists for 'feminizing' boys.

[lumberjack_jeff]

242. I fully agree.

I think that dismissal of the importance of violence against males comes from the same attitude which tolerates inner city violence. "Let 'em kill each other, what do I care?"

You're absolutely right about some men liking it that way. Men are supposed to man up, women are to be protected. As cultural norms go, that one dates back to the Neandertals.

In my humble opinion, this is a part of the patriarchy which the feminist movement finds convenient, and I think their attempts to "stop this kind of macho programming", is at best, a head fake.

[redqueen]

243. Are you accusing me of lying?

I swear to you that I find it extremely sad that people send out this double standard... and the effects on males are clearly not good... so I don't know why you'd call it a 'head fake.'

I don't even have boys... but I never miss an opportunity to ask parents I'm socializing with if they'd let their boys wear pink shoes. Any time the subject of equal rights for girls comes up, I can't help picking at that scab. Because the double standard makes me absolutely sick.

And sure, that's a side issue, but it's part of the same sickening tradition of forcing each gender into its own tiny little box. I absolutely hate it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

246. Let me respond with a question.

Since you know that males are 56% more likely to be a victim of a violent crime, do you think a Violence Against Men Act should have been a bigger legislative priority for the NOW?

It has little to do with pink shoes.

Cultural norms manifest without conscious thought. The concepts of honesty and truth aren't applicable.

It is possible, as a poster upthread said, to support maximum efforts to combat violence against the group who is less likely to be a victim because of an unexamined belief that "it's just different".

FWIW, I recommended this thread.

[redqueen]

247. No... I don't think so.

NOW's agenda in pushing for that act was directly related not to gang violence, not to bullying violence, but the violence inflicted upon women by their domestic partners, boyfriends, or stalkers (domestic violence, dating violence, sexual assault, and stalking). That's a whole different ball of wax than the kind of violence men have to deal with.

I'm not sure what kind of act needs to be passed in order to protect men from the violence they inflict on each other... whether in the name of fun, bullying, or barrroom or gang violence.

It seems like the only thing that could change men's violence against each other is to stop programming them to be emotionless, stop teaching them that violence is 'manly,' and stop encouraging them to get into fights with bullies to 'stand up' to them. It's all part of a cycle of violence and despite the protestations of the many who seem to enjoy the status quo, IMO that kind of violence won't stop until we change it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

258. Okay, let me rephrase the question.

It sounds as if we agree that the purpose of the NOW is advocacy for the interests of women, so let's ask a different question.

Since violence against men affects more people, should it be at least as important a public policy issue as violence against women?

Currently, it clearly isn't. THE central tenet of patriarchy is to protect the women at all costs.

Equality requires addressing the convenient as well as the inconvenient elements of the patriarchy.

[redqueen]

259. I missed your edit before...

the "pink shoes" issue is just to get them thinking about how much they restrict their boys... nothing more. The ways boys are forced into those boxes are myriad, but the pink shoes is a good example IMO because it's shocking. Even some of the most progressive people seem to wince at the idea of their little boy wanting to wear pink sandals... even while they'll get outraged at countries that don't allow women to wear pants. IMO it's just stupid.

As for cultural norms being unconscious, I disagree. I think it's very much conscious, and we teach our children this bullshit out of habit and laziness... unwillingness to examine these behaviors... nothing more.

I agree that male violence should be an important policy issue... but as you admitted yourself... some men (most? the vast majority?) like it that way... so who will start this initiative?

If feminists do, it will only solidify the hostility toward feminists (which as you know, even many *women* share)... so who would be best suited to tackle the problem?

ETA: and thanks for the rec. I'm glad this thread has stayed civil and informative, instead of turning into another knock down drag out with people mostly just talking past/at each other. :)

[seabeyond]

260. i think there are groups that are addressing male on male crime. inner city

gang out reach programs. i think if you were to check it out, there are programs and activist doing exactly htis.

people dont want throw away boys jeff. people are trying to help our youth

[mitchum]

268. Serial killers who prey on men have higher kill rates...

most women at least get the token "watch out for men" warning

Whereas young men just think,"okay, I'll go over to his place and get high. Cool!"

[seabeyond]

270. males are unaware that their fellow males are violent? is this what you are suggesting?

that if we all sent them out with watch out for the serial killer we would then being doing our job?

[mitchum]

273. Not at all, but most young men don't think...

"Hey, this guy who invited me over to get high is going to rape and kill me"

Look up Randy Kraft, Dean Corll, John Wayne Gacy, Elmer Wayne Henley, David Brooks, William Bonin, Jeffrey Dahmer.

Their "stats" may prove to be an eyeopener.

[seabeyond]

275. ok. then you tell all these men concerned about their daughters not to bother, it is

the boys they should be concerned with. dont really care.

this whole thing has gone way south.

not at all the way i parent my boys, live my life. but if you need this battle, have at it

[mitchum]

277. Jesusfuckingchrist, you really hear just what you want to hear, don't you?

I will type this very slowly (maybe that will help)
Men certainly think of themselves as antagonists when it comes to male on male violence, but they are never conditioned to think of themselves as prey.

Apparently, you are the one who needs a certain battle.

[seabeyond]

278. you are right. they may not consider themselves prey in that situation

i dont know that i have ever considered talking to my boys about consideration of being prey. the odds are so huge that it is even a possibility that priorities like fighting in bars, accidents, bullies on playground, and many other things come into play before warning them about being prey to a serial killer.

dont even know that i would talk to daughter about serial killer, just caution as a whole.

[mitchum]

279. Thanks, that was my point (and I apologize for the snark and vehemence...

in my previous post)
Both daughters and sons should be warned about predators.
Certainly they should not live in a world of fear, but a world of caution.

[seabeyond]

280. you were

after another poster that i was not even understanding. so i started it.

i think we start both genders out on predators at a young age though. as far as them being aware of pedophiles. and that is non gender. but you have a point. not even something i would consider. then again, both my sons would find it odd an older man inviting to place to drink and/drugs. they just arent in that world. i hear ya though

[redqueen]

215. It's true that they don't have to worry about sons being assaulted by girls.

However, as others have pointed out, boys are hurt more often in car accidents, stupid stunts, fights, etc.

So it still doesn't quite make sense to me.

I do see that worrying about the dangers re: the amount violence directed at females is reasonable... I don't see how it's any more of a concern than worrying about boys being injured in other ways (which seems like it may be/actually is more common).

[mitchum]

271. Agreed (n/t)

[Beacool]

109. I'm not a dad, but I'm a daughter.

My father adored me and I adored him back. My mother was the disciplinarian. My dad had two sons from his first marriage and one son with my mother. I was born when my brother was 14 years old. By then my dad was 55 (he was much older than my mom) and thrilled to finally have a daughter.

My dad was one of the most cultured and interesting persons I have ever met. He had been a diplomat, businessman, spoke several languages and knew fascinating people. I remember quietly sitting and listening to him and his friends talk. One of them was an Argentinian retired diplomat who had served in Berlin during WWII and had such interesting stories to tell about Hitler. Dad thought nothing of taking me to his men's club and I was the only female the old coots would allow in the club. He and his buddies taught me how to play billiards while standing on a chair (I was 5 years old at the time). They also taught me how to play cards while sitting on two phone books to reach the card table. Afterward, dad and I would go to some outdoor cafe and he would have his cocktail while I would get a virgin drink and we would people watch.

My dad always treated me as an intelligent person who could become anything I wanted to become. I still miss him very much.

:-)

[seabeyond]

115. see. it is all the difference in the world when a father give simple respect to daughter

my father was the same. well... none of your story and mine the same, lol. my dad young, no mens club, lol., not an ambassador, ... but unconditional love, adored, and respected to this day.

[Beacool]

134. A good dad makes all the difference.

;-)

[absyntheminded]

116. Wow..

If true - very Kool life... Intelligent, worldy, graceful pops, loving mom and older brothers.
Your not a Kennedy are you? LOL! - Jus kiddin - Brown?
Charmed life, that most here don't experience.
Just us working/middle class, eh, sum upper mid and beyond folks - jus sharing thoughts.

[Beacool]

135. Nope, not a Kennedy.

But they were our neighbors in Palm Beach and we attended the same church.

:D

[Avalux]

113. I think it's a safety concern. Young women are much more vulnerable than young men.

Look at the stats regarding abuse. I also think that because Dads were once teenage boys they remember the raging hormones; that they would say and do anything to get in a girl's pants.

No Dad wants their daughter to be the sexual conquest of a hormonal young man; no Dad wants their daughter's heart broken.

So here's what I propose to all those worried Dads - talk to you daughters. Empower them so they are able to take care of themselves and aren't naive about boys. Best thing a Dad can do.

[seabeyond]

117. but as a mom i dont want my sons heart broken from oh.... a gal that is going to

emotionally manipulate him ect... like girls do.

both genders have and use the weapons. one gender doesnt rise above the other.

i teach boys to find a .... i know, everyone will hate this but ya...... nice girl. lol. cause there is nothing more sad than to watch a young guys heart broken, tooo

[Avalux]

118. I get what you're saying.

And as a mom of young girls, I want them to find a nice boy who won't trample on them. Maybe we should get our kids together? ;-)

[seabeyond]

119. bah hahahah i already have five or six

moms lookin to hook up

that is funny

:toast:

on edit... looky though, you are just south of us. isnt that funny. son looking ot go to UT in four years, wink. lol

[Odin2005]

114. It's a mix of sexist "fairer sex" sentiment and legitimate concerns about vulnerability...

...to things like date rape. That's my guess. Like another poster said, all dads were once horny teens.

[Dappleganger]

128. We have two of each.

Two teenage girls, a teenage son and an 11 yr. old son. We worry about all of them just the same!

[madmom]

129. My hubby says because he remembers what he was like at that age.

[seabeyond]

141. see, all the guys have the same pat answer. like repug talking points.

was he raping girls? (i know he wasnt). otherwise i dont see what that has to do with anything. he wanted sex. girls want sex. unless your hubby is saying the girl should not have the same freedoms of the boy.

i have decided after this thread, this is what guys say, and not a lot of thinking in it

[absyntheminded]

158. Call it what you will....but

It's in our Jeans. It's not like we had anything to say about it, society and our environment makes us what we are, some just do better than others as we mature.

[seabeyond]

166. genes. but you totally ignore what i am saying

not saying it is not in the genes. i just dont see what the pat, big deal in the answer, i remember what it was like when i was a teen. so what. i was around lots and lots of teen boys. they wanted sex. so did we girls. we did it, or we didnt. MOST ALL guys didnt rape to get it.

horney teens. so what

the point is, guys saying harder to raise daughter cause remember when they were teens. what did the boys do, that they are so bothered. want sex with the girl? one of two things, either they forced girl. or they think the girl should not have sex with the boy.

if they are not bothered that daughter has sex, then what does it matter they remember being horney as teen.

[Xenotime]

227. I agree with you on this point..

Actually, it's not really the parent's business if the daughter wants to have sex. Especially if they are not bothered by it.

[madmom]

188. No I don't think it was anything like rape, BUT, there is a lot of pressure there. Pun intended.

Guys can put a lot of pressure on girls to have sex when they're that age.."If you really love me..." Girls may not be ready and/or willing but they don't want to lose their boyfriend.

[seabeyond]

196. i agree here. but then i think it has a lot ot do with character of son... that he has developed

as far as how he is raised, taught, what he sees in his life growing up.

but if that is what guys are saying, i hear ya. thanks for explanation. i wasnt seeing where the deal was with this answer.

[redqueen]

222. Is pressuring girls to have sex considered part of this unchangeable 'hard wired' behavior?

I hope that's not the case.

If men see as adults that it's wrong, then it should be called wrong, and discouraged... not accepted and enabled by saying it's just 'boys being boys'.

[madmom]

230. Oh I agree 100%. I have never, or will ever accept "boys will be boys" as an excuse. I even

got into an argument (quite loud one if I recall) when my daughter was being "teased" when she was young. The boys would pull her ponytail or twist her arm "because they liked her". I also said "that being so, then girls will be girls and execute a well placed kick, IF you know what I mean!" the principle became quite irate BUT the teasing stopped.

[alarimer]

136. It's nothing more than sexism.

Coupled with the usual paternalistic bullshit.

[TicketyBoo]

143. Before we had our son…

We had a niece and nephew being raised by a single mom (my husband's sister).

When the niece turned 13, I told her, "Don't ever go to bed with a guy unless you want it so bad that one time is enough, because that may be all you'll get."

And when the nephew turned 13, I told him, "Don't ever go to bed with a girl unless you want it so bad that you're willing to spend the rest of your life with her, because that may be what you'll end up doing."

There is a difference in attitude on the part of boys and girls, I think. That may be slowly changing, but it is still there.

When our own son was four years old, we stopped at the post office and his dad went in to get some postage stamps. Our son, in the backseat in his car seat, out of the blue, asked, "Mom, where do babies come from?" I had anticipated this, but didn't expect the question quite so soon, but I told him, "From their mommies' tummies." I swear, he didn't miss a beat, but immediately asked, "Well, Mom, how do they GET there?" I took a long breath. I had thought I'd have a few more years before THAT came up. But, no. Here it was. So I told him. Gently, but I told him. His response, "Oh, Mom! People don't do THAT!!" I laughed and said, "Oh, I assure you, they DO."

The beautiful part of this is that he doesn't remember a time when he didn't know where babies came from AND how they got there.

When he was in his early teens, I told him, "I would rather have a daughter have a baby out of wedlock and bring it home for me to raise than for you to father a grandchild I will never get to know." He just nodded his understanding.

If we love and respect our kids and give them the knowledge they need, then the rest is up to them. A parent can only do so much.

[seabeyond]

168. i liked how you approached the two, in the difference. works fine, BUT

did your sons, or your nephews not want a girlfriend. seemed both my brothers in their teens wanted girlfriends. my male friends wanted girlfriends. my nephews are now wanting girlfirends and my oldest son, working on 15 wants girlfriend. i am not seeing most all boys saying, i just want a fuck and move on. that seems to be a little older. but the teens, in highschool, they want girlfriends as much as girls want boyfriends

i was the different one. i would tell guys, one night stand, that is it. never had a guy that didnt want twice, and i was the odd one out not wanting a boyfriend.

but i think this is another we are promoting, conditioning our boys with, that i just have not seen as a reality. that teen boys want a fuck and move on to next one.

as a whole, i dont see it.

but we tell our boys this is who they are.

[TicketyBoo]

192. I didn't tell them "that's who they are."

I told them what the worst scenario could be, preparing them for it.

Less broken hearts all the way around.

They both are pretty messed-up adults. In fact, the nephew has been to prison (burglary) and was (is?) messed up with meth. He's been married twice. So has she, and had a child out of wedlock with a third man in between husbands.

Our son wants a girlfriend, yeah. He's a "walking, talking, crying, barely beating broken heart" over a girl he met online (long distance) when he was 14. He is now 22. She is living with someone else.

I told him, "There are plenty of fish in the sea."

He said, "But I like this fish."

[seabeyond]

197. cute. dontcha just love em. nt

[undeterred]

146. Parents have to worry about the physical safety of daughters

more than sons. When they go off to college its not going to be the young men who are the most likely victims of sexual assault.

[lumberjack_jeff]

147. Why? n/t

[izzybeans]

148. It's a bad joke. But as a dad with two sons and a nieces I have to say I've got it easier than

my sister-in-law and cousin.

Girls are constant targets of commercials and they've had quite an impact on all three of my nieces demeanor. My oldest son is the same (or nearly) age as all my nieces and his worries are whether or not Star Scream is awesome, why daddy and mommy think Alphonso Soriano is overpaid (his hero), or why Republicans lie. The worst thing to happen to him is that his Teddy gets left behind on a road trip.

My nieces on the other hand are competing with their friends at school over clothes and over fictional boyfriends on the Disney channel. The worst thing that could happen to them is to take their lip gloss away.

Broad brushes I know, but its all I have to compare at the moment. The commercial pressures on parent of young girls are way more pronounced and impactful IMO. A large majority of commercial products and commercials in general are directed at them. And no matter how much you hide them from it, they have the "mean girls" at school and day care calling them out for not having the Miley Cyrus furry boots or whatever.

[seabeyond]

169. this is why i have always said thank god i dont have daughters. i would

totally screw her up. lol

i agree, in this seems to be easier. but then i thought peer and societal pressure would be tough, even with boys and have found parenting way outweighs peer and societal pressure.

[redqueen]

224. I just disagree. IMO boys do have pressures, just in different ways.

Boys are pressured not to show emotion, lest they be considered 'sissies'... as they get older they're pressured to conform to whatever stereotype... and more and more boys are also getting the message that they need to look a certain way in order to be attractive.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

152. My mother was always the one who said she's glad she didn't have daughters

My father never made such a comment.

[MajorChode]

160. I'm glad I have one of each

For my 2nd child, we didn't even find out what sex it was before it was born. I didn't want to know ahead of time.

[seabeyond]

170. i wish my hubby had a daughter. it is so special father/daughter relationship. nt

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Iggo]

157. Girls are the best.

I would not be the man I am today if I hadn't raised girls. (One's in college. One just started high school).

Nothing scary about them at all. And they aren't 'born knowing how to twist boys around their little fingers'. They are either taught that or they are not taught that. We don't teach that. And by "We" I mean my brother, our dad, and myself. Non-traditional family unit, but it's worked out surprisingly well. Other than menarche, it's been a breeze...lol.

[absyntheminded]

161. Girlz rule, Boyz drool

Like the simple, direct aspect of your input. My girls impress the hell out of me everyday, and yes, still feel the need to protect and shield them, even though they may not need it. I'm sure I'll get sum "Boyz Drool" flaming - no offense, just like the quote

[seabeyond]

173. this is the flip side of sexism we teach our boys that is being taught to our girls. my boys and i

have had many conversations of this and i cannot understand the parent that gives this to their daughter. it is so offensive. i am teaching my sons respect. this is not. i am teaching my sons to see girls as human, and treat them accordingly.

the big issue boys had young is me telling them their role in life as they watch girls abuse and adults allow

girls at younger age, push, pinch, hit, bite, pinch boys ears.... all manners of things and teachers do nothing. the boy can do nothing. it is such an abuse. and if a boy says anything, or tries to make girl stop by pushing her away, god forbid defend self, he gets in trouble or they tell boy to quit being a cry baby. yes , ... literally

i had one girl pinching sons ear. i told her knock it off. my son was not allowed to hit girl. she smiles and say.... ah the power....

my mouth dropped open, i was so surprised at the blatant unfairness. and hence another lesson for my sons that there are bitches out there. they cannot hit, just stay away.

[seabeyond]

171. good for you iggo. yes. it is TAUGHT. i love it.

and agree over 100%

[redqueen]

225. I agree that it's only some girls who are socialized to be manipulative.

None are born that way.

[MajorChode]

159. There is cause for some of that concern

There's not as much chance of a teenage son getting sexually assaulted as there is with a teenage daughter. I have one of each and I would never say I wish I had one or the other, nor do I hold them to different standards or expectations. However, I do have different concerns for them. For instance, I have more worries about my son driving aggressively than I do for my daughter. So there are differences between the sexes and some causes for differences in concern, but holding them to different standards is just wrong.

[seabeyond]

174. exactly. nt

[redqueen]

226. I do see the reason for different causes of concern...

but not for more concern over one than the other.

[seabeyond]

231. true enough. nt

[AllentownJake]

175. 4000 years of human civilization probably explains it.

Marrying for love is a concept that has really only been around the past 200 years or so. Most marriages were business transactions between families. It was a contract between families to improve some level of economic success.

This notion of traditional marriage always makes me laugh. Traditional marriage is your father marrying you off to one of his business associates or his business associate's son to form closer ties. Biblical traditional marriage means that neither party the groom or the bride really had much of a say in who they were being paired with. The idiot bible thumpers (most of them) don't understand this. The first time a man would meet his bride half the time would be on his wedding night. That must have been awkward because after the wedding ceremony there were a whole bunch of people standing outside the tent, house, or whatever the domicile was to wait for evidence that the marriage had been consuminated. In some cultures they didn't even wait outside, they went into the bedroom and watched or sent in witnesses.

Dating, is a new concept in society.

The we need to protect the chastity of women is a hold over from those times when the contract was only honored if the woman was a virgin. The reasons for that was it guarenteed paternity and provided for a disease free mating partner. There was no need to worry about the Son's virgianity because the only children in his line were ones that were from his legal wife. Bastards (literal meaning of the word) don't get a share of the property legally so men could fuck all they want to. If they ruined some father's Virgin it was a civil matter and there would be some form of payment to the father. Who would in turn either kill his daughter or sell her into physical slavery or into sexual slavery at a brothel. If they didn't get knocked up they could be sent to a convent.

Many of our values are hold over, of that society. Father's worrying about their daughters chastity all stems from that history.

[Lyric]

180. Because they understand instinctively that women are targeted more than men.

A daughter is far more likely to be beaten, raped, abused, dominated, discriminated against, oppressed, and/or murdered than a son is.

Of course, some of it can be sexism. There are certainly men who think their daughters are weak, stupid, or less trustworthy than a son would be. But not all of it is sexism. Some of it is more of a reaction to sexism; the innate understanding that, in a sexist society, their daughters are at far more risk of being hurt in some way than their sons are/would be.

[cherish44]

181. The teen era is a dangerous time of life for both boys and girls

Underdeveloped impulse control and raging hormones are a volatile combination. Sometimes even the best home environment and parenting in the world are not enough to keep kids (boys and girls both) from doing incredibly stupid things at this age.

[wiggs]

201. Good answer. nt

[PRETZEL]

183. Because my daughter is the apple of my eye.

She's "daddy's little girl". No matter how old she'll be, there's just a more special place in my heart for her. She's 19 now, goes to college full time, works 2 jobs so she can afford what she wants. She's an extremely well balanced, responsible young lady. I'd like to think I had something to do with that.

I look at my daughter and see that she's the type of person I always wanted her to be. I don't want her to make mistakes now that could change her life in ways that she's not prepared for.

[seabeyond]

184. i tell ya

there is such a special bond between father/daughter. a good father makes all the difference in the world. a fathers unconditional love sets female up to make a good choice in future as far as mate. what she will allow, not allow. a good father will give her a confidence and self respect that will be a plus in her journey.... from here on out

but then the same is said about a mother/son relationship.

and a father/son relationship is so vital too

as is the mother/daughter.

lol

parents are important in their kids life.

but then, vice versa too. told kids when they were young, i am not just teaching them. they are teaching me soooo much about life. stuff i have forgotten now that i am older

[sybylla]

185. With my husband, it was just a case of overprotectiveness

Actually, we never had a daughter, only sons. But I've told him over and over again I'm glad we never had a daughter because we would have ended up in divorce over it. I would have had to spend my days countering his overprotective and very sexist reactions. Strangely, he's not sexist at all with the rest of the world but a very progressive person when it comes to women. I would have never stayed with him if he wasn't. He just never would have felt that way about a daughter.

[Lerkfish]

191. I worry about my son, who is already a heartbreaker without knowing it at 10

I've instilled in him the RESPONSIBILITY of sex, since we already had to have the talk with him about the mechanics of sex. (thanks to having to do that with current culture)
Right now, he's oblivious to his appeal, and doesn't like girls, but we already see the girls falling all over themselves to hang out with him: he's handsome, at the top of his class, naturally athletic and has a great personality and sense of humor. (stuff I never had, well, at least not the looks -- he gets that from my beautiful wife)

its real obvious to us, girls at the bus stop giving him cow eyes, girls inviting him as the ONLY boy to their birthday parties.

So, its not just the girls we need to worry about.

[TicketyBoo]

195. Since he's smart,

he is probably smart enough to handle it.

At age 10, kids in my son's class wanted nothing to do with the opposite sex, boys OR girls. "Ick."

In second grade, all the kids came to my son's birthday party, boys and girls alike.

By third grade, they wanted nothing to do with one another.

[seabeyond]

198. (thanks to having to do that with current culture).. this is parents reality today

and god help the child whose parent isnt open to conversation. all the friggin time.

[asdjrocky]

193. I have no sons, so it's hard to say.

It's just when I see my daughter, now a Sophomore in college studying biology and planning to be a Veterinarian, I've just always seen someone who is perfect. I think men see too much of themselves in their sons.

Also, I was raised to respect women, and I think that transfered to a special kind of respect for my daughter. Honestly, I can tear up thinking about how hard she works and how inherently good she is. Dads that are glad they don't have a daughter are only glad because they don't have a daughter. If they knew the love, the respect and the fierce need to protect a daughter, they would feel different, it's part of what makes me a man.

I'm lucky she has a good head on her shoulders and I'm lucky she has a good mother, and I feel lucky to have her.

I'm sure I didn't answer your question, but I tried. Now I'm going to go text my daughter.

Did I mention she is carrying a 3.75 gpa?

[seabeyond]

202. ahhhhhhh. yes this is it. the thing, what a father sees is not the same as what mother sees

i assure you.

lol

probably right about father seeing son in him. but the mother knwos the female in the daughter that you dont see. i am sayin, i practically raised niece, (no daughters). she does her girl stuff and all the males in family obtuse. man, not me. i see it know it breathe it adn the rollin of the eyes, is end of her world. lol. teasing.

niece rolled eyes at me when she was about 12 and i turned on her and man.... i havent been so mad. hubby kept sons on otehr side of house and told them, you dont want to go back there. but dad, i need to use bathroom. really son, you dont want to go back there.

was a funny. we laugh now

but your post, for me as a female and daughter with excellent father who loved me.... you post, is all that it is.

[redqueen]

228. :)

It's heartwarming to see such affection... but at the same time I'm disturbed by the idea of men seeing too much of themselves in their sons. That seems really sad.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

223. Ye verily:

Take this pink ribbon off my eyes
I'm exposed
And it's no big surprise
Don't you think I know
Exactly where I stand
This world is forcing me
To hold your hand

'cause I'm just a girl, little ol' me
Don't let me out of your sight
I'm just a girl, all pretty and petite
So don't let me have any rights
Oh...i've had it up to here!
the moment that I step outside
So many reasons
For me to run and hide
I can't do the little things
I hold so dear
'cause it's all those little things
That I fear

'cause I'm just a girl.
I'd rather not be
'cause they won't let me drive
Late at night
I'm just a girl,
Guess I'm some kind of freak
'cause they all sit and stare
With their eyes
I'm just a girl.
Take a good look at me
Just your typical prototype
Oh...i've had it up to here!
Oh...am I making myself clear?

I'm just a girl
I'm just a girl in the world...
That's all that you'll let me be!

I'm just a girl, living in captivity
Your rule of thumb
Make me worry some
I'm just a girl, what's my destiny?
What I've succumbed to
Is making me numb
I'm just a girl. my apologies
What I've becocme is burdensome
I'm just a girl. lucky me
Twiddle-dum there's no camparison

Oh...i've had it up to!
Oh...i've had it up to!!
Oh...i've had it up to here.

[redqueen]

229. lol... love that song.

:)

[redqueen]

232. LOL... my first unrec for this.

I'm surprised it took this long, honestly. :rofl:

[gbate]

233. Well, I am a woman with only sons who worries about her boys getting their hearts broken by girls.

[redqueen]

245. I would find it troubling if any parent didn't worry

about their kids' hearts being broken.

[BoneDaddy]

290. but your son's pain doesn't matter on this message board

only that which is female matters... the irrational minds that move gender politics on DU are blind to anyone else's pain than their own. They use it as a weapon, as a justification to behave badly... it is sad.

[stranger81]

236. We have a daughter, and my husband always explains why he worries more

about her than he would if we had a son by saying he worries because he knows how men think.

I have to say he's got a point.

[redqueen]

238. Thoughts are a problem? Are those thoughts just fine as long as they're not about daughters?

They're all about someone's daughter... so... it just makes no sense.

[seabeyond]

239. can you please explain to me then. more i read the thread, less i get that nt

[ieoeja]

237. Boys don't get pregnant.

Nobody wants their 12 year old son knocking up some girl. But the one thing they take comfort in when that happens is that at least they aren't the parents of the poor girl. Whether she has the baby or an abortion, she is still going to have to go through an ordeal.

"That is misogynist." No, that is biology. Pregnancy has a physical effect on a female. It has none whatsoever on a male. Accordingly, the consequences of pregnancy are greater for a female than a male. That isn't hating on women. It is just acknowledging reality.

"That is selfish." No? Really? Yes, people are selfish for being more concerned about their own welfare than that of others. But the last time someone suggested we stop doing that, we nailed his ass to a tree!

"'Nailed his ass to a tree,' is mocking Christ." No, you just have no fucking sense of humor.

"'Nailed his ass to a tree!' That is just Xian bigotry. You do know that other religions also think selfishness is bad." Tell that to the Jesus freak I pissed off by nailing his God to a tree.

"You're talking to yourself." How do you know there aren't two or more people collaborating in writing this post? Huh?

[redqueen]

240. LOL!

Sorry, but I do have a hyooooooooge problem with selfishness. To the point of obsession, really. :)

[seabeyond]

241. funny. is that funny. yes, that is funny.... lol lol nt

[Initech]

248. If they really were concerned that Girls Gone Wild guy would've been killed dozens of times by now.

[redqueen]

249. Obviously those girls are "whores" and not "madonnas" and therefore

not in need of any protection or even being considered worthy of respect. Obviously.

:sarcasm:

[seabeyond]

257. my hubby reply to guys when they talk about that.... just wait until you see your daughter lifting

her top for the world to see and come back and tell me how cool those commercials are.

[truebrit71]

250. Because boys don't get pregnant....

...