I'll say it. Congratulations Michelle Bachmann, you killed a cancer ridden old man

[walldude]

WASHINGTON — The FBI is investigating the hanging death of a U.S. Census worker near a Kentucky cemetery, and a law enforcement official told The Associated Press the word 'fed" was scrawled on the dead man's chest.
Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/23/census-worker-hanged-with_n_297114.html

Ok, I'm sure there will be denials and ranting and raving about how this was no fault of Michelle Bachmann's anti-census rants. But that is all bullshit. She caused this mans death. There is no doubt about it.
I have never heard of a census worker being hung and tagged "Fed" like he was some kind of spy. Not till today. And not till after Rep Michelle Bachmann decided to go on TV and claim that the census was some evil government plan to round up republicans and put them in concentration camps. Sorry, Ms Bachmann but the blood of this poor dude is all over your hands. Not only should you resign so that your insane rantings can be kept in your own home but you should be charged with a crime in relation to this mans death.

Sleep well you lunatic.

[AllentownJake]

1. I have a post on this already

but I'll repeat it.

Attacking Census workers is not only vile, it is stupid. Making it difficult for people who are like you to be counted ensures that you will have less congress critters in your state.

[tavalon]

100. One of my partners used to work for the Census

His response: "I'm not surprised." I was, though.

[OswegoAtheist]

123. I worked for the Census Bureau this past Spring.

Here in UpstateNY, we have pockets of idiocy in a sea of center-right moderates. I had to knock at one house because the house number didn't match the mailbox number (and neither appeared on the handheld); the dude who answered the door, upon learning that I was with the Census, asked me in the most threatening manner he could, "are you working for that ACORN shit?" I wish I could say that I'd floored him with an apropos bon mot, but since my brain doesn't work that fast, I just said, "no."

Every other enumerator I talked to after the canvassing had a similar story of intimidation, so I can't say that I'm surprised that one person somewhere simply followed their paranoia.

Oswego "But since I had at least a foot and 100 pounds on the dude, I wasn't really that intimidated" Atheist

[T Wolf]

120. I think that should be the penalty. Let reich-wing violence cost the pukes a seat or two

and they just might tone down their rhetoric.

Who am I kidding? They revel in acts like this because it further riles up their base.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

2. I know how you feel,

but, please consider that it's not been determined a homicide. It just might be a suicide.

Try to hold off on the condemnations - as seductive as they may be - until some facts are known. Remember how the freepers went nuts over the girl with the "B" carved on her face?

Until someone noticed it was backwards?

The facts will come out...............................

[Occulus]

4. Yeah, he put the derogatory representation of his own activity on himself.

Maybe he was shamed into suicide by being a *voluntary* census worker.

:eyes:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

16. Right now,

on Rachel's show, a journalist who's been covering this story since it was first announced two weeks ago, is urging caution, since it's not been determined to be a homicide.

You are obviously not familiar with the many creative ways some people find to kill themselves, trying to make it look either accidental or like a murder so as to avoid the incontestability clause that many life insurance policies carry. It's not at all uncommon.

I prefer to deal with known facts, but you are perfectly free to run with speculation...................................................

[rhett o rick]

204. Your defense of Bachman and right wing loonies is scary. nt

[Tangerine LaBamba]

241. What defense?

Get your hands out of there and use your head.

Not leaping onto your Conspiracy Bandwagon, the one with square wheels, doesn't constitute a defense of anyone.

Get a grip and wait for the facts before you end up sounding like a total idiot.

Oh, wait........................

[rhett o rick]

244. Apparently the DU freeper defense system is down. nt

[Left coast liberal]

89. And, a single dad? Leaving his kids all alone?

I am jumping to conclusions here but I will eat my hat if this ends up being suicide.

Doubtful it wouldn't even be national news unless there was foul play involved.

But, you are right, let's hold our thunder until all the facts are known.

Then we can tar Bachman with that brush.

Cretin!

[Anakin Skywalker]

195. LOL!

[TheBigotBasher]

7. The backwards B thing was spotted quite early on

as it was so obvious and stupid. One of the big pluses for DU was pointing out how glaringly obvious it was - so the media and then the police took it up.

This does not sound like that. I do however accept that it is too early to jump to conclusions but if it is murder, the blood is not just on the hands of Baachman, the anti Acorn types and more are covered in blood.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

19. He was found on September 12 -

now, why would it still be up in the air as to what happened to him? That's a long time for a coroner to determine the cause of death. I'm sure there's a forensic pathologist or two involved, as well.

So, it's very strange that this has been kept quiet for so long, if, in fact, it's a homicide.

And, the lag time between discovering the body and announcing the cause of death is unusual. Toxicology takes weeks, four to six, usually, but a cause of death is routinely announced after the autopsy.

Anyone know who found the body? The circumstances of its discovery? I haven't seen anything about that..............................

[Barack_America]

25. The body was apparently in bad shape.

That can affect the coroner's exam.

I wouldn't be surprised to for this to be ruled a homicide, but the cause of death wasn't hanging. Just a feeling I get about this.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

27. So no one knows how long

he was out there?

Oh, man, this story just gets worse and worse.

It may be that homicide cannot be established. If the body's decomposed to the point that things like defensive wounds, signs of a struggle, have vanished as the body broke down, this could turn out to be the perfect crime.

Or another sad suicide.

Jesus, it's gruesome, either way.............................

[Barack_America]

30. You really think that a man who successfully battled cancer and got a degree...

Drove 30 miles from home, parked his truck at a church then hiked a considerable distance into the woods to hang himself, after scrawling "Fed" on his chest?

Really?

I mean, honestly, how likely does that seem to you?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

35. When human beings are concerned,

anything is possible. After living this long - I'm old - and having practiced law for more than three decades, I am still constantly surprised at what people do. They are one species that is always perfectly unpredictable.

Yes, it seems very likely. After all, you know nothing about him, save for a few details about his health, his marital status, his fatherhood, his student status. You have no way of knowing his life, his history, what went on in his head.

Imagine that he found out that his cancer had returned and, this time, was untreatable? That would set up a perfect scenario for his death, sparing his children the horror of taking care of him as he died, and, if it looked like a murder, would still keep his insurance policy or policies in force.

I can imagine that very easily, since I've witnessed variations on that theme.

Don't ever make the mistake of thinking you know someone because you read a few details about him. You don't. No one does......................................

[Critters2]

74. I can die now. I've heard everything. nt

[Tangerine LaBamba]

93. Naw, there's always another story -

tell me people don't do things that surprise you at least once a day.

The most interesting species. Anything is possible....................

[tavalon]

102. Aren't we though?

The funny thing is, I get more and more amazed, the older I get.

[tavalon]

101. Not likely!

[kenfrequed]

139. Really?

That seems unlikely.

I imagine a person with cancer would probably have to drive or take some kind of transportation there. If it is not found that would start to rule out your theory. Hanging oneself is alsonot terribly easy from a tree if a stool or log is not under him somewhere that would also make it somewhat less likely.

If the body is decomposed to the point where the coroner claims they could not detect defensive wounds then it suggests to me that the 'FED' was not written on his flesh and it may have been carved into his body. I have trouble believing that this would have easily been accomplished by his own hand.

Your 'wait and see' has waaayy too many loose strings to be reasonable. But considering the delay and deter route that the law enforcement took I would be surprised if they were trying to push it off that way or sweep the whole thing out of sight.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

180. He had cancer, but had survived it -

he was no longer a cancer patient.

Well, if you think "wait and see" has "waaaaayy too many loose strings," then I guess you have absolutely no recourse but to leap and bound into any kind of half-assed theory based on no information.

Have at it.............

[silenttigersong]

183. I disagree

Someone who was thinking of his "children "would not put them through a gruesome ,wicked ,ordeal as this.This sounds ,like a real crazy,and I think this is just his beginning.

[ohheckyeah]

86. I agree. It sure doesn't

sound like a suicide.

[rhett o rick]

191. Exactly. Either a wacko luny did it or he went to a whole hell of a lot of trouble

to make it look like it.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

197. Two words -

David Carradine.................

[rhett o rick]

205. One word for you "whatthefuck?" Are you as loony as Bachman? nt

[Tangerine LaBamba]

213. Narrow little mind you've got there,

eh, Spanky? Able to fit your whole response on the subject line.

Too bad you're not able to embrace any number of possibilities. Too bad you're so locked into some sort of tenuous thesis with absolutely no basis in fact.

But, hey, if it comforts you, I'm all for comforting the afflicted...........................

[rhett o rick]

222. Funny I agree with you that we don't know all the facts. But I find your obsession with defending

Bachman very strange. You are giving others stuff about jumping to conclusions, yet that's exactly what you are doing. The circumstances are such that is APPEARS to most that it couldn't be suicide but you go way overboard defending the right-wing position. Hmmm

[kenfrequed]

225. I noticed the same

And there are actually a few names that are popping up trying to stomp down any talk of murder obsessively. It is strange.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

230. "... obsession..."

Do you know what that word means? Pointing out that people are sliming that goofball without any proof at all is "obsessing"?

My, my. That dictionary is just wasted on you, isn't it?

So now you're in charge of deciding what's appropriate and what's 'overboard'?

I don't think so, Spanky. You're up against a wall here, reduced to trying - and failing - to insult me. What you need to do is show me the proof that Mr. Sparkman was murdered.

THAT, yep, I'd LOVE to see that.......................

[kenfrequed]

231. sliming what goofball?

I am not sliming a man that appears to have been murdered and whose death is being investigated because the feds have reason to suspect murder.

YOU ARE. The suggestion that this public servant who seems to have done service to his community most of the time... the suggestion that he somehow 'pulled a Carradine' is disgusting and unthinking and far more slimey a thing to suggest than pointing out how obviously this appears to be a murder.

In fact it reeks of a right wing slime job.

As opposed to sliming who? A probable murderer in a probable murder who seems to have killed for political reasons? Yeah I can totally see how a Democrat would want to protect such a person against being slimed.

Spare me, and by the way consider yourself reported.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

235. OK, now you're just losing it -

First, read the post to which I responded. It was not a post of yours.

Second, you can't read.

Third, you've reached "Rabid" on the "Not Making Sense" meter.

And, OH!!!!!! Are you going to "report" me?

Report me????

You are hilarious. You really are adorable, and funny. But, rabid, too.

Oh, my. I've been threatened with being "reported!!!!"

[kenfrequed]

236. No amount

No amount of absurd graphics covers for your nonsense and smearing.

Sorry I looked up at that specific thread.

You implied the man may have been engaged in off color actions by tossing out 'david carradine.'

Then later you complaing about someone being slimed.

Go sell crazy someplace else.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

237. You're babbling......

And now you're making it all about ME.

The subject was the death of Mr. Sparkman, or have you forgotten?

I just want to see the proof behind your claiming that he was murdered. That's all.

Not an unreasonable request.

So why try to insult me, and why this sudden compelling interest in me?

Not necessary.

Just stay on-topic and show me the reasons why you believe Mr. Sparkman was murdered.

Thanks...................

[DeepBlueC]

238. This will go on your Permanent Record, Missy!

;)

[Tangerine LaBamba]

239. I am in SO much trouble!!!!

Mom and Dad are gonna hold up my allowance, and I bet I'm grounded................

[madeline_con]

44. Maybe what's up in the air is whoodunit, not what happened to him.

If you watch even one of the multitude of cop shows, you know they're not going to tip their hand if they think they can get a suspect/witness to mention something not released to the public.

Just beacuse WE don;t know doesn't mean the authorities don't know.

:shrug:

[roguevalley]

84. 9-12 was Glen beck's dipshit parade. coincidence?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

95. Oh, no -

no one else died on 9/12.

That one day was absolutely death-free.

So, no, it was not a coincidence......................................

[roguevalley]

98. perhaps. I will give you your sarcasm. But I doubt there was a

hanging quite like this on that or any other day this month.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

99. He was found on the 12th -

what if he died on the 11th?

That would be by the hands of Saudi Arabia, right? Or Al Qaeda?

[kenfrequed]

155. I am a bit startled here

I really am puzzled with how you are twisting and contorting to deny the possibility that the killer(s) were right wing lunatics.

No the date doesn't prove anything but compounded with other factors this may be somewhat relevant.

I suppose during the civil rights movement you would recommend exhausting time searching for any other possible explanation BEFORE looking at the direction the evidence seems to point?

[Fla Dem]

163. I don't believe the poster is denying the possibility it was a political homicide.....

but just saying before we all say with CERTAINTY that it was a RW hit job there are questions that need to be answered. Regardless of what happened, it would appear that this was a good man, who contributed to his community, had suffered and prevailed and peopled are mourning his loss.

:hi:

[kenfrequed]

169. I can accept that

But I have seen a number of 'Don't jump to judgement' posts that far, far outstrip the point of credulity. There almost seems to be an unconcious desire to not get too engaged and not point fingers in any particular direction no matter how compelling the connectiosn seem.

This is not the first posting on this where I have seen a the signal to noise ratio tilted hard by some that seem to be trying hard to drown out ANY speculation on the obvious connection here. I don't know if it is denial, or a contest of 'well I'm more open minded because I don't believe anything,' or what. It just doesn't seem to make sense.

[DeepBlueC]

240. I haven't seen anything "compelling" yet

Suggestive,perhaps, but a hanging where his feet were touching the ground is really rather peculiar, don't you think? I'll wait for actual evidence. A lot more of it.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

194. i checked over on the site that should not be named

They mostly seem to be of the view that its a 'false flag' op meant to distract and/or blame them

[Tangerine LaBamba]

196. And I am laughing at your assumptions

1. that it was a murder, and
2. that the "killers"
3. "were right wing lunatics,"

all on the basis of NO information whatsoever.

Man, if the right wing lunatics see your posts and find out how dumb some DUers are, they're gonna end up laughing even harder than I am right now.

They'd be entitled.

Really, invoking the civil rights movement is inane. Quit trying so hard to shore up your perfectly untenable beliefs. You're sounding more and more like a freeper with every silly thought you post.

All we know is that we don't know anything about how Sparkman died - murder, suicide, a David Carradine stunt. Natural causes?

No one knows, so quit trying to sound like you've got some inside information that is valid.

You know nothing............

[kenfrequed]

223. Of course

And when my "assumptions" prove to be rather near the fact....


What sort of noises will you make then?

Anyone can throw out a kaleidoscope of 'what if's' and 'but maybes' but occasionally you do have to look at the most likely scenario and actually rule that out first.

My "untenable beliefs" are about a hundred times as likely to be true as your wild 'what if it was some bizarre frigging law and order/CSI suicide scheme. Your desire to believe in such things makes me sort of curious as to your motivations.

Had truth ultimately been your motivation a simple gentle 'well lets wait and see.' Your denials scream of desperation and I am begining to wonder what the hell you are actually doing here.

[rhett o rick]

226. Agree, what is their agenda? nt

[kenfrequed]

227. I don't know

I could speculate but what could I really know...

It is possible they are trying to play the 'I'm more rational and open minded than thou' thing. But fixating that it is Not Murder so vehemently sort of pushes me to other explanations.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

228. Taking umbrage with someone

who assumes a position of "I don't know" and who finds the leaping and bounding to groundless assumptions is a sure sign that you're standing on shaky ground. Why would you be put off by my asserting reality - that no one knows anything about this man's death and that we won't know until the ME releases the findings from the autopsy and the police make statements about what they believe happened?

No one knows anything. I'm not denying a thing - the notion that you find my "I don't know anything" to be a "denial" is kind of funny, but I know you're intent on proving.

Imagine this - you have invested much in how a man died. And, after all, all there is is a dead man and loss. You're betting - "My 'untenable beliefs' are about a hundred times as likely to be true as your wild 'what if'......" on how a man died, just so that you can be right.

I have no need to try to put you down, beyond pointing out reality, which seems to offend you, and I won't indulge in name-calling or specious characterizations. I'll just wish you well, and let us both hope that the case of Mr. Sparkman is settled and concluded with a minimum of strain on his survivors.....................

[RaleighNCDUer]

168. Maybe they are trying very hard to find a way to make it NOT be a homicide.

A suicide, people 'tsk tsk' and forget it.

A homicide looks REAL ad for the community. Particularly if the local PTB are hardcore repugs.

Are census workers considered federal employees? Maybe local LE is refusing to work with the FBI assigned to the case. For the reasons given above.

[shadowknows69]

174. And a homicide can breed copy cat homicides.

Another reason a call on this may be delayed. The census bureau doesn't need their entire staff quitting out of fear, or being killed by RWingers who think "The signal has been given"

[The Wielding Truth]

182. ....opps!....posted in wrong spot

[walldude]

11. So the guy painted FED on his own chest?

Was this before or after he hung himself? Have you read about this guy? He's been fighting cancer, he's not a quitter. Plus if he was going to kill himself he's got the drugs to do it why hang himself? Why not do it at home? The cops are calling it an "apparent homicide", I seriously doubt this guy killed himself and frankly when I saw the story I wasn't the least bit surprised. Look at the comments on Huffpost, one of them read: "Crude, but this could be the start of the revolution".

[Tangerine LaBamba]

17. Right now,

on Rachel's show, a journalist who's been covering this story since it was first announced two weeks ago, is urging caution, since it's not been determined to be a homicide.

You are obviously not familiar with the many creative ways some people find to kill themselves, trying to make it look either accidental or like a murder so as to avoid the incontestability clause that many life insurance policies carry. It's not at all uncommon.

I prefer to deal with known facts, but you are perfectly free to run with speculation...................................................

[JuniperLea]

189. And how do you hang yourself with your feet touching the ground?

They said there was contact... man, you'd have to be one grizzly sob to be able to off yourself like that!

Someone is covering something up... that's my gut reaction... and considering the good ol' boy network down there, and the coroner is likely one of them, we may never know for sure who killed him. But he was offed, I'd bet on it.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

200. Ask David Carradine -

remember how he died?

Uh-huh...........................

[JuniperLea]

203. Somehow I don't think this guy...

Was wanking off by the side of the road. :)

The purpose of auto-erotic asphyxiation is to get as close to passing out as you can, so you really WANT to get to that point and can probably fight the natural urges of self-preservation.

Possible, sure, that he wanted to kill himself. I'm just not seeing him as a candidate for suicide any more than I do a candidate for auto-erotic asphyxiation.

True, we can't always tell when someone is going to kill themselves, but everyone I ever knew who did it, left a note... and with the exception of my brother, we knew the others were depressed about something. My brother accidentally shot someone while playing with a loaded rifle... and left a note saying he was sorry and didn't mean to hurt anyone... before he went into the closet and shot himself.

I've done a lot of suicide research in the 35 years since his passing.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

214. Carrdine wasn't trying to kill himself, either -

accidents happen.

When I heard that Sparkman's feet were touching the ground, David Carradine's death was the first thing I thought of. Stranger things have happened.

Now, my friend, what are your criteria for candidates for auto-erotic asphyxiation? Or suicide.

Come on. You're smarter than that. People are more like icebergs than we ever can admit, and no one knows anything about Mr. Sparkman and his personal life.

I am sorry about your brother's suicide. I am very sorry....................

[JuniperLea]

216. No, he wasn't trying to kill himself...

He was trying to get as close to that as he could without actually doing it... that is the point of auto-erotic asphyxiation... they say there is an intense orgasmic high that comes from it. So, by nature, you are trying to get to that stage.

Candidates for auto-erotic asphyxiation are generally sex addicts... much like a drug addict trying some new drug that is supposed to get you higher than the last.

The list of criteria for suicide isn't as blatant; there are so many factors. You have to use a process of elimination.

What we have here is a genuinely wonderful human being... one of the good guys. He's a fighter, a cancer survivor. Someone who thinks of others, does good for others. I just don't see it. People generally go to a "safe place" when they commit suicide... a familiar place. Men generally shoot themselves, and women take poison. Hanging suicides are rare outside of prison cells and mental hospitals. People who are ill and commit suicide will almost always make sure everything is tidy, complete, fixed, given away, etc., before they top themselves. Ever see the play "'Night Mother?" It's textbook for an illness suicide.

We really won't know until more details come in... were his hands tied? Was there a note? Was there writing on his chest or not? Was his computer there or not?

We may never have all the facts... and it's all just speculation at this point, no matter how you slice it.


Edited to say... I have to run! Won't be back until tomorrow... didn't want you to think I was ignoring you, my friend!

I respect your perspective, regardless... I hope you know that!

:hug:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

219. I don't think it was suicide -

now that we know that he died of asphyxiation, that his feet were touching the ground, it sounds a lot more like auto-erotic asphyxiation to me.

I'm sure you feel an affinity for Mr. Sparkman, but what do you know of his sex life?

Nothing.

No one knows anything about him personally. Your characterization of him as "a genuinely wonderful human being" is sweet, and generous, and totally off-the-wall.

It's all speculation - that's all we know..........................

[JuniperLea]

221. Did you read the background info on him?

Volunteer... etc.

See ya... gotta run... I guess you responded prior to my updating the last post! :hi:

[varelse]

209. It's not yet known if Bill Sparkman died from hanging

or from some other cause. The fact that investigators are so tight-lipped indicates to me that they suspect foul play and don't want to let too much information out into the public domain.

I believe that the OP is right to blame Michelle and her ilk IF this does turn out to have been a homicide. In fact, I would class this as a hate crime - I know, it doesn't meet the legal definition but that's pretty much how I view it.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

217. Maybe they're "tight-lipped"

because no one can figure out anything?

Maybe the autopsy results are inconclusive?

No one knows how long he was out there. Decomposition took place, so it makes determining what happened more difficult.

Now, with the news that his feet were on the ground, I am seeing David Carradine all over again. Auto-erotic asphyxiation is a far more popular activity than people would care to admit. I worked with adolescent boys as a social worker, and, back then, it was the leading cause of death for boys in that age group - although they then classified it as "suicide by hanging."

David Carradine's death was first classified as a murder by people who like to rush to judgment. Stories of a prostitute seen leaving his hotel room, all that stuff turned out not to be true.

Were Mr. Sparkman's hands bound? A telling detail I've not heard or read anywhere. The absence of that vital factor would lead me even more to suspect auto-erotic asphyxiation.

What better place for a good wanking session that needs a high sturdy place for the rope than a remote spot in the woods? Mr. Sparkman was an Eagle Scout - he'd know his way around the woods.

Blaming anyone for this death when nothing substantive - besides the just-released fact that he died of asphyxiation - is just plain stupid.

I don't give a whit for Congresswoman Bachman - in fact, I pretty much loathe her and all stands for - but this kind of dumb behavior, blaming her for Sparkman's death, forces me to defend her, which really sucks.

No one knows anything, and anyone who claims to "know" what happened to Mr. Sparkman is simply full of it.

No one knows..................................

[Barack_America]

15. "Likely homicide"

That's what the Census dept. was told by local law enforcement.

His body was found some distance from his truck, which contained the computer he used for his Census work.

The saddest thing? This guy probably just liked to talk to people and needed the extra cash.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

18. No one gets charged

with "likely homicide," but I'm waiting for the final word.

Poor guy. No matter what, he's dead, and that stinks......................

[Scruffy1]

162. Suicide?

Sure- he carved up his chest with the word FED, hung himself, and then parked his truck in another location. Also the COPS AND FEDS going door to door. Worst case of suicide I've seen since Emmet Till.

[geckosfeet]

206. Scrawled fed on himself then climbed into a noose.

Plausible.

















:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

[LostInAnomie]

3. If it turns out to be a murder (which I'm sure it will be)...

... this should be the end of her. Her anti-census bullshit lit the match for this fire.

[Solomon]

9. It did.

Indeed it did.

[JonQ]

5. So if anyone "rants" against a particular activity

and then someone performing that activity is murdered the ranter is to blame?

Ok, so that means every dead soldier can be blamed on an anti-war protestor. They complained about what the soldiers were doing, the insurgents may have listened and been inspired, and that was probably what caused their deaths.

Twisted logic huh?

[Zoeisright]

20. "So if anyone 'rants' against a particular activity and then someone

performing that activity is murdered the ranter is to blame?"

YES, actually. It's called fomenting violence and inciting riots.

And your 'logic' is backward and twisted. Dead soldiers can be blamed on the people who START THE WARS, not on those protesting against it.

Sheesh.

[JonQ]

I see, so if they are fomenting violence

why haven't they been arrested? If it meets the legal definition that should be an open and shut case.

And it will remind people to keep their mouths shut on controversial issues to avoid being sent to jail, which is a good thing.

[Zoeisright]

36. Huh? Of course they should be arrested.

Haven't you been paying attention?? We WANT these people to be held responsible for their hate speech.

And nobody is saying that people should 'keep their mouths shut on controversial issues'. We're supposed to discuss issues. What is wrong is when nuts like Michelle Bachmann get these unstable kooks all riled up by raging against the 'communist, fascist census workers'.

And then someone gets killed. What don't you understand about that?

[JonQ]

43. You want them to be jailed

I don't, I like free speech.

And obviously your case of "well this person said something bad about census takers, and then a census taker was killed, so arrest them for hate speech" hasn't held up in court as no one is seriously proposing such a trial.

Although I do like how you were able to put this whole scenario together with so few facts. You know exactly who the killer listened to immediately prior to acting. Too bad you can't tell the cops what he looked like too.

And on any controversial issue there will be nuts on either side, some will be dangerous, with me so far? Therefor anything you say on any such issue could be considered to have inspired said nut when he finally snaps and does something stupid. If such trials become common the effect would obviously be to silence dissent on such issues.

[Forkboy]

47. You realize how easy it would be to turn this around on the Left and start arresting us?

How much do you think people could have spoken out during the Bush Administration if they could go after people for speech they felt was incitement? Half of DU would have been arrested. :)

[JonQ]

51. Bingo

many here seem to be fairly short sighted.

Obama is president, and dems control the congress right now, so obviously it will be like that forever. Let's give the government tremendous powers to arrest people for speaking out publicly on any issue, surely that will never be turned around and used against the left.

[Forkboy]

58. People don't realize that if free speech is attacked then no other issue is safe.

[JonQ]

62. I hope that's all it is

a short sighted and emotional response.

I would really like to think people don't actually want to use the law as a weapon to silence the other side. But the enthusiam with which some of them advocate that path concerns me.

[Forkboy]

63. It is an emotional response, and that's the same thing that got us the Patriot Act.

This story is a tragedy. It would be an even bigger one if we used to further erode our rights.

[JonQ]

65. And another one of the reasons I'm getting sick of politics

people eagerly advocate shredding the constitution when their guy is in power, and viciously denounce the same things when the other guy is in.

The fringe of the right and left have a lot in common. They should get together and form a third party dedicated to destroying america by increments.

[kenfrequed]

171. Baloney or maybe Salami.

Look, considering Motive is very important when isolating possible suspects.

Congress critters whose language seems to lead right up to killing census takers probably should be censured. I mean, congress was stupid enough to admonish Move-On for calling Petreaus out for his lies and did nothing, NOTHING, against Bush for the obvious and real lies of the war.

So yeah I think her lies and bullshit should have a cost.

And squeeling about the Patriot act and all that kind of noise to drown out the kind of converstaion we should be having feels wrong to me. It feels as though you wish to dismiss this or diminish it or divert the topic away from the obvious.

This is a federal crime. This is a Census taker that was probably killed for doing something that the constitution specificly and in explicit language calls for. The man was hung and it sounds like it is being investigated as a homocide. The Killers had motivation.

This murder did not get a lot of publicity when it occurred for whatever reason. We need to be realistic about what this is and what this represents.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

199. What "murder"?

You're talking out your ass.

Show the proof you have that it was a murder.

Since the investigation is still ongoing and no statements have been released, I expect you to have some pretty compelling insider information.

Let's see it.

Until then, STFU....................

[kenfrequed]

224. Yeah right

And you seem to be working really hard to deny anyone even thinking it is murder. I wonder about your motivation and I think you have sock puppet or two stalking a few of the other threads about this.


Were I to suggest what I think to be true about your motivation it would only get deleted anyways.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

229. But, if you have proof,

I'd love to see it. Why would any proof - genuine and real - get deleted?

My motivations? Sock puppets? You're investing an awful lot of imagination in this matter, but that's your choice.

I'd just like to see the proof you have that Mr. Sparkman was murdered.

You want to insult me but you're afraid to. Oh, go ahead. Your words are nothing but pixels, so have at me. I think I can take it. Don't be such a coward. Go for it. Courage of your convictions, and all that.

But, my motivations aside, I'd love to see your proof that it was murder, too.

You do seem to know so much, and yet you're not posting it, shoring up your stance.

Go for it. Hit me with your best shot. Come on, big talker. Do it..............................

[kenfrequed]

232. I suppose

After it is revealed to be the obvious murder that it is you will apologize to me?


I did not directly insult you. You are baiting for a thread lock. You are baiting for insult which makes your motivations crystal clear to me now. So there is nothing more to be said.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

234. Come on -

you want to tell me about my "motivations," but you're afraid it would be deleted?

If that's not baiting, I don't know what is.

You're quite a weenie, and you still have no proof to offer, do you?

Weenie.....................

[Forkboy]

208. ....

Congress critters whose language seems to lead right up to killing census takers probably should be censured.

I have absolutely no problems with this, though I do see it leading to a mess of accusations from both sides that ties up government even more than it is.


And squeeling about the Patriot act and all that kind of noise to drown out the kind of converstaion we should be having feels wrong to me. It feels as though you wish to dismiss this or diminish it or divert the topic away from the obvious.

I'm sorry you can't see the very obvious similarities between basing laws on anger and fear now to passing the Patriot Act based on anger and fear in 2001. The fact that people on DU can't see this is, quite frankly, stunning to me. It's not to drown out the conversation, it's a damn valid part of it. If anyone is being dismissive it's you, as you can only see it as squealing just "squealing" to you. It's stunning to me, it truly is.

This is a federal crime. This is a Census taker that was probably killed for doing something that the constitution specificly and in explicit language calls for.

We already have federal laws that cover this, up to and including the death penalty. Restricting the freedoms of people who didn't do anything wrong punishes ALL of us instead of the guilty party (or parties, as I suspect is the case here). How is that right?

This murder did not get a lot of publicity when it occurred for whatever reason. We need to be realistic about what this is and what this represents.

I totally agree, I just don't want to see us, Democrats and liberals, react like so many did after 9/11 and pass laws that flat out suck for the country and ALL of our freedoms. I realize full well what this stuff represents, but I also realize how screwed we are if were chip away at the First Amendment and can't speak out about it anymore. How do we counter what this represents if we can't talk about it? You think that when Republicans are in power again (and they will be someday) that they won't abuse this kind of thing to shut us up? And do you really want to take that risk?

[kenfrequed]

233. This feels..

A bit too concern troll to me. Sorry. But wiht one person screaming agaisnt anyone that calls out the probability that this was a politcal murder and your strange and paradoxical hyper-worrying I am wondering if some people are trying to get this threat locked up.

[Forkboy]

242. Defending the 1st Amendment on DU is now "concern trolling"?

What the fuck planet are you from? Paranoid much?

Goddamn, this is fucking pathetic. :puke:

[GoneOffShore]

243. Giving you an attaboy here

This is a very valid point - and the replies to you further down thread -
Not so much.

They're doing the pretzel concern troll act.

[tavalon]

105. The ironic thing here is that

attacking free speech is, um, free speech.:silly:

Don't worry, no one will be arresting the useless Congresscritter. But maybe, just maybe, Minnesota will decide to send her back to private life. We can hope and we can help, by exposing her nastiness, every chance we get.

[Forkboy]

150. As it should be. Use free speech to counter this, not take it away.

Your approach is exactly how it should be done. :thumbsup:

[JuniperLea]

190. Seriously...

How is trying to shut people up... ON A DISCUSSION BOARD... a good thing?

Opinions are like assholes, no question, but dayum! The condescention, the rudeness, the back stabbing, the put a sock in it mentality is making my head hurt.

[noiretextatique]

135. it's not about free speech...it's about being accountable for what you say

as an elected official. bachman is flat out LYING to her constiuents, many of whom are obviously too stupid to know that she's lying. she needs to be held accountable for what comes out of her stupid, lying mouth.

[AuntPatsy]

137. Yours is perhaps the best response...the free speech ones are worthless considering

her position and her claim to work for the people of this country....I assume now those on the wrongright side of the aisle would have NO problem with Pres Obama openly stating that republicans are worthless scum who do nothing more than incite violence and hate..free speech is a wonderful thing even when elected officials use it..

[Forkboy]

146. And the voters in her area have the means to hold her accountable if they find her crazy enough.

many of whom are obviously too stupid to know that she's lying

While I agree, it's not for us to tell other voters what's best for them and their regions. I'm sure many Republicans think Mass people are too stupid to knows what's best for us as we keep electing Kerry and Kennedy. And this highlights the risk. This issue can easily be turned around, and if it was during the Bush administration a place like DU would probably not even have survived. If we sacrifice free speech we're sacrificing out own right to speak out, and our ability to do so affects every single issue we believe in and fight for. Eroding free speech is like turning in our biggest weapon, while handing those we fight against the biggest one they could ever ask for. The risk is even higher than letting these idiots spout off...way higher.

The fact is, it IS a matter of free speech, and even elected officials have that right to be as dumb as they can manage. It's up to the voters to exercise their rights to correct it. If they don't there's nothing else we can do. We can't arrest the clowns because they say stupid, ugly and mean shit. It just doesn't, and never should, work that way.

[noiretextatique]

148. i believe elected officials should be held to a higher standard

than internet posters and other people who aren't elected officials. the fact that bachman is a lunatic should not exempt her from being truthful. her claims about the census are outright lies, not free speech. i don't see a slippery slope in requiring truthful statements from elected officials.

[Forkboy]

153. It IS free speech. Lies are free speech.

Do you really want to start legislating the truth? Because we all have different versions of it. Give me an answer here...how do you go about requiring the truth?

Free speech isn't a matter of one standard for elected officials and one standard for everyone else. It's ONE standard for all of us. Why stop at politicians? They aren't the only ones who have power to affect our lives. Why not require police officers, teachers, bankers, your stock broker, etc to require that they speak the truth. It would be awesome if they all spoke the truth and nothing but the truth so help them Goddess, but it's wishful thinking, and there's no way to enforce it without going down that slippery slope you're not seeing.

[noiretextatique]

165. i believe elected officials should tell the truth

i don't care if you lie or if some random internet posters lie, but bachman's lies have an impact on the entire society, obviously. i don't think government officials who lie are protected by the 1st amendment. nor do i believe media outlets like faux have a right to spread false information for the sole purpose of manipulating the political process. if we condone that, then we condone the lies bush told to start the war.

[Forkboy]

179. Well I believe they should too.

And I have no doubt at all that her lies are a detriment to society. What you propose, I believe, is far worse.

i don't think government officials who lie are protected by the 1st amendment.

Have you thought through the implications of this? Who decides what's a lie when both sides can dispute the same evidence? People can see the same facts and still not agree, that's why we have hung juries. You're essentially asking for a Truth Police, and I can't believe that anyone on a site like this can't see the implications of that. How many Democrats do you think Bush, Cheney and Rove would have rounded up under the pretense of lying? It wouldn't even have to the be truth. You know how Republicans are. This kind of thing would cause political chaos the likes of which we've never seen. It would make the Clinton years look like a political Utopia of good will and good intentions. Both sides would be endlessly going after each other for any lie, real or perceived, and then there would be endless hearings on whether the person lied or not, and on and on. You think healthcare reform is taking too long to pass now? It would be Witchhunt Central.

nor do i believe media outlets like faux have a right to spread false information for the sole purpose of manipulating the political process.

I believe they do. When Walter Cronkite made his famous speech where he said that he felt that Vietnam couldn't be won, under what you propose it's very likely he would have been taken off the air, or even arrested if you think it's not just wrong, but actually made it illegal. Cronkite was 100% correct, but how long did it take after that before the Government agreed? It would have taken years to sort, and in the meantime, a critical voice to help end the war is silenced. There is zero doubt in my mind that government would abuse any chance to silence the opposition in such a way, and isn't that exactly why so many here are freaking out over Chavez? Do you really want a Republican controlled government deciding who is telling the truth or not? We wont be in power forever.

if we condone that, then we condone the lies bush told to start the war.

If we condone what you want then Bush wins anyways. The path to Hell is paved with good intentions. Chipping away at the First Amendment to protect ourselves is EXACTLY what Bush did with the Patriot Act. Back then it was passed because we let anger and fear rule the day, and now people here on DU are doing the exact same thing, and under the exact same guise, to protect us.

I'll always love you, but your post has me totally bummed out.

[steelyboo]

181. It is not one standard for all, and in a sane world never would be.

You are arguing that a person's liberty of not having his speech restricted by Government should outweigh our ability as a nation to hold elected officials of our own government accountable when they present themselves to the world on a national news network and knowingly misrepresents(she was given a copy of the Constitution the day she was sworn in, and as an officer under said document has a duty to be aware of its contents) the Constitutionally mandated duties of a Federal agency in an effort, intentional or not, to sabotage said duty? Really?

Ever heard of Oliver Wendell Holmes' "Yelling fire in a crowded theater?" That is a restriction on free speech. It is a valid one. Ask anyone who remembers the Who tragedy in the late '70's in Cincinnati. I'm not a Constitutional scholar, but I am fairly sure the Founding Fathers meant Free Speech against your government without reprisal, as that was the tyranny they faced in their day. I do not believe that they meant that a Representative could knowingly lie about a government function in order to win an election, yet causing havoc and mayhem in the process. Or that anyone should be able to do so.

As a Census employee and a Kentuckian, I am both angry and ashamed about this incident. Although the most plausible explanation is drug producers/growers (much weed grown out there, long history of DEA hatred), I just get a creeping feeling that this idiocy by that "Price Is Right" Hostess (R-MN) will be involved.

[Forkboy]

202. The fire in the theater example has been overturned.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6616450#6617568

"Shouting fire in a crowded theater" is a frequent misquoting of Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.'s opinion in the United States Supreme Court case Schenck v. United States in 1919. The misquote fails to mention falsely shouting fire to highlight that speech which is merely dangerous and false which can be distinguished from truthful but also dangerous. The quote is used as an example of speech which serves no conceivable useful purpose and is extremely and imminently dangerous so that resort to the courts or administrative procedures is not practical and expresses the permissible limitations on free speech consistent with the terms of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution.

Holmes, writing for a unanimous majority, ruled that it was illegal to distribute flyers opposing the draft during World War I. Holmes argued this abridgment of free speech was permissible because it presented a "clear and present danger" to the government's recruitment efforts for the war. Holmes wrote:

The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic. <...> The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent.

Holmes wrote of falsely shouting fire, because, of course, if there were a fire in a crowded theater, one may rightly indeed shout "Fire!"; one may, depending on the law in operation, even be obliged to. Falsely shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater, i.e. shouting "Fire!" when one believes there to be no fire in order to cause panic, was interpreted not to be protected by the First Amendment.

The First Amendment holding in Schenck was later overturned by Brandenburg v. Ohio, which limited the scope of banned speech to that which would be directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action (e.g. a riot). The test in Brandenburg is the current High Court jurisprudence on the ability of government to proscribe speech after that fact. Despite Schenck being limited, the phrase "shouting fire in a crowded theater" has since come to be known as synonymous with an action that the speaker believes goes beyond the rights guaranteed by free speech, reckless or malicious speech, or an action whose outcomes are blatantly obvious.

--

Proving incitement is a damn hard sell unless someone comes right out and calls for direct action, else Beck and O'Reilly and these clowns would already have been arrested.

--

You are arguing that a person's liberty of not having his speech restricted by Government should outweigh our ability as a nation to hold elected officials of our own government accountable when they present themselves to the world on a national news network and knowingly misrepresents(she was given a copy of the Constitution the day she was sworn in, and as an officer under said document has a duty to be aware of its contents) the Constitutionally mandated duties of a Federal agency in an effort, intentional or not, to sabotage said duty? Really?

Think about this a bit. Who decides what's a lie when both sides can dispute the same evidence? People can see the same facts and still not agree, that's why we have hung juries. You're essentially asking for a Truth Police to determine in every single case (and there will tons of them) who is telling the truth or not. How many Democrats do you think Bush, Cheney and Rove would have rounded up under the pretense of lying? It wouldn't even have to the be truth. You know how Republicans are. This kind of thing would cause political chaos the likes of which we've never seen. It would make the Clinton years look like a political Utopia of good will and good intentions. Both sides would be endlessly going after each other for any lie, real or perceived, and then there would be endless hearings on whether the person lied or not, and on and on. You think healthcare reform is taking too long to pass now?

When Walter Cronkite made his famous speech where he said that he felt that Vietnam couldn't be won, under what you propose it's very likely he would have been taken off the air, or even arrested if you think it's not just wrong, but actually made it illegal. Cronkite was 100% correct, but how long did it take after that newscast before the Government agreed that Vietnam was unwinnable? It would have taken years to sort, and in the meantime, a critical voice to help end the war is silenced. There is zero doubt in my mind that government would abuse any chance to silence the opposition in such a way, and isn't that exactly why so many here are freaking out over Chavez? Do you really want a Republican controlled government deciding who is telling the truth or not? We wont be in power forever.

--

This is basically a copy and paste job from another post of mine, and I apologize for that...the Bruins/Montreal game is starting and my time is limited. :)

[varelse]

211. Some speech isn't protected by the First Amendment

Inciting to riot, recruiting a murderer-for-hire, slander, defamation of character, fraud, violating an oath of officer, and several other forms of speech I am too lazy to look up, aren't protected by the First Amendment.

[Zoeisright]

52. Fail.

I don't remember many people on the left inciting hatred and violence against innocent people. Read up on fomenting violence, please.

[JonQ]

56. She actually said let's lynch census takers?

I'd like to see that quote.

[Forkboy]

57. You weren't here. How would you know?

Try proving that incitement in court and get back to us. And read up on free speech, please. I would start with the 1st Amendment.

[Yes We Did]

131. Especially our elected officials. n/t

[Forkboy]

154. Ok, let's say we pass a law requiring elected officials tell the truth and nothing but.

How do you enforce it, and what's the penalty? And why not apply it to every single person who has some measure of control over your life, such as cops, teachers, stock brokers, etc?

[HillbillyBob]

125. We could not I spent 8 years being harassed.

phones and puters bugged, threatening phone calls and emials. put on the no fly list and had home riffled because I spoke out about the election fraud of 2000 in fla, eyewitness to ballots being shredded right at our poling place, I wish I had had a camera, but there was a fox news team there with cameras..they showed the foodtage after the election was given to godambush saying it was at the courthouse. No it was not and it was not filmed after the supine court decision it was filmed the night of the election.

There is a difference between telling the truth or expressing your opionon and hate speech you know will cause violence and bachmann is crazy but she knows what she is doing. as does beck, dobbs, et al.

[Forkboy]

147. What's your answer then?

[Yes We Did]

130. Sorry... but... FAIL.

We are not elected official going on television and radio promoting hatred and spouting ridiculous conspiracy theories.

That is the difference. She is in a position of power. She has a responsibility to not be a nutjob.

[Forkboy]

149. As I asked above, what's your answer?

Should we weaken the 1st Amendment? Should we arrest or remove any politician we feel is being too hateful? Do you really believe if we set this kind of precedent that the Republicans will be kind enough not to abuse it the next time they're in power? I'm not trying to be wise here, I genuinely would like to know what people think is the answer.

People in power have the same right to free speech as we do. If we weaken it for them we're weakening it for us as well, and that risk is a lot higher than the risk of a some loonies spouting off. What if Bushco thought OUR speech was hateful conspiracy theories? After 9/11 there's been tons of them from the Left. Elected officials have the same right to be idiots that we all do. It's up to her constituents to correct it, not us by eroding the 1st Amendment. This stuff is emotion driven, just like the Patriot Act was, and look how great that piece of garbage is.

We can never be totally safe from batshit crazy people while retaining the Constitution, just as we can never be totally safe from terrorists while being a free country. If we erode free speech then every issue you and I believe in is damaged, and our ability to speak out is weakened. What if we couldn't speak out about wars, about the environment, etc? We just went through 8 years where we had a President who would have been all too willing to shut down the speech of those on the Left. We won't always have a Democratic president, and do we really want to damage our very best weapon in countering the Right Wing? I don't.

[glinda]

32. She is a public official that has been high profile on the evils of the Census &

Government. Only a fool would discount this. I wonder how she sleeps at night. She has been awfully quiet.

[Zoeisright]

37. I agree totally.

And Bachmann is a total coward, like most right wing bullies. There were photos taken of her hiding from people demonstrating against her whack-job criticism of gay rights in Minnesota a few years ago.

http://www.eleventh-avenue-south.com/archives/000491.html

[JonQ]

45. Indeed, suspiciously quiet

she did it!

Of course you haven't denied doing it either. Perhaps you are guilty.

[unpossibles]

23. um, while I agree that we should not quite be getting out the pitchforks...

... that analogy doesn't really work well. The soldiers and the insurgents are doing what they are meant to do - use violence against each other under orders.

This census worker was neither volunteering for, nor expecting, violent action to be taken against himself.

[JonQ]

26. Alright, how about whenever

there is a crime where a black man attacks a white one, would it be fair to hold black panther and black nationalist leaders accountable for labeling whites as the enemy, the devil, the oppressor and so on? Certainly they are fomenting violence against whites with their rhetoric, shouldn't they be blamed as well?

[Zoeisright]

38. Here's my last try.

1. There IS a long long history of whites oppressing blacks. So black leaders expressing anger and frustration with that is NOT fomenting violence. It is stating a truth.

2. Ms. Bachmann has specifically said the census could lead to internment camps. Some idiot with very poor reasoning skills hears this. He is approached by a census worker and attacks that census worker BECAUSE of what he heard the dipshit Bachmann say. Ms. Bachmann is guilty of fomenting violence. She created a culture of fear, based on lies and stupidity and NO BASIS IN FACT with her platform.

If you can't see the difference, that's really sad.

[JonQ]

41. Is there a long history of people oppressing census takers?

If not then you can't really apply it to them either.

I tend to hold people accountable for their own actions, and hold free speech as sacrosanct. It seems you would prefer to blame others (based on really no evidence at this point).

Oh I've got one, Al gore has created a climate of fear surrounding global warming (we're all going to die!) if someone were to watch an inconvenient truth, then go out and blow up an SUV dealership because of watching that movie, it would then be Als fault.


But of course it won't be, because you will simply come up with another qualifier. To the extent that basically when someone on the other side says something you don't like they are responsible for any actions carried out by people who may have once sat next to them on a train. But if people you agree with can be tied to a violent act, well that's just some nut acting on his own and he bears full responsibility for his actions.

[Zoeisright]

46. Buh-bye.

But first, think about learning something about logical reasoning. You've made so many mistakes in your replies it's dizzying.

http://library.thinkquest.org/J002327F/logic.htm

[JonQ]

54. Saying goodbye

well, actually "buh bye" to avoid continuing errors in judgement is the height of logic and reason no doubt.

[Solomon]

108. LOL Lot of logic missing in that one.

[Kajsa]

124. You have got to be kidding!

"Oh I've got one, Al gore has created a climate of fear surrounding global warming (we're all going to die!) if someone were to watch an inconvenient truth, then go out and blow up an SUV dealership because of watching that movie, it would then be Als fault. "

Not even close-not on the same page,
whatsoever!

Pretzel logic!

[kenfrequed]

151. Are you sure you are on the right website?

Seriously.

You can't shout "fire" in a crowded theatre.

If you talk about revolution constantly and threaten that the possibility exists and that the people you are representing are getting angry and that they may need to take action someday. And on another day you talk about Acorn and the census being an evil government plot and how the government intends to use it against those self same people.

And then one of the crazies goes out and kills someone obviously connecting the dots in your words then you actually DO bear some responsibility for what happens. The only real question is the legal or civil degree of responsability that you bear and whether it is prosecutable.

Bare minumum the @!#&# should be censored.

As to the destruction of property after 'the inconvenient truth.' Well that answer is BS and comparing vandalism to actual murder and terrorism is a disgusting sliding scale that is unimaginably absurd. Never mind the fact that Al Gore is did not invent global warming and that it is actually a real world phenomena that really is occurring. And never mind that the end of Gore's film suggested all sorts of ways to do something positive about global warming (and oddly revolting against GM and burning cars weren't on the list).

A person responding to scientific fact in a destructive and possibly silly way is not the same as someone that uses hate constantly and calls for revolution.

Your reasoning lets the Klan and Racist Militias off the hook because they use the term 'Lone Wolf' (which by the way is a hell of a lot more veiled that Bachman has been) to sanction the killing of someone.

Again, are you on the right website.

[Crzyrussell]

176. You

have posted the best reply on this thread.

Kudos to you..

[unpossibles]

69. lol. Ok, I won't argue with you because I too support the freedom of speech

Then again, some forms of expression have successfully been considered not protected, such as the stereotypical "fire!" in a crowded theatre.

But I still won't argue with you until we discover more facts.

FWIW, your points may be better made if you did not sound so much like you think the war protestors foment violence from insurgents a laughable premise at best, which is widely accepted by the FOX crowd and other such arguments. Seriously, your parallel is not parallel at all, and this example is also more than a bit shakey - plus you've ignored my objection to the first one.

And yes, I know you're probably now going to say I am trying to censor you, or something equally illogical, but I am not; I am expressing my right to free speech just as you are.

Again, we need more facts. And we don't need to arrest Bachmann, but perhaps there should be consequences for encouraging illegal and violent acts - not censorship, but perhaps someone with the guts should tell her to shut the fuck up and quit telling her fans to do stupid treasonous shit?

[JonQ]

72. Why exactly do you think I would claim

you were trying to censor me? Did you advocate using the law to put me behind bars for what I have said? If not then the comparison doesn't really fit.

And yes, blaming the anti war protestors for the actions of the insurgents is ridiculous, as ridiculous as blaming this woman for the murder.

"Again, we need more facts. And we don't need to arrest Bachmann, but perhaps there should be consequences for encouraging illegal and violent acts - not censorship, but perhaps someone with the guts should tell her to shut the fuck up and quit telling her fans to do stupid treasonous shit?"

You mean like using your free speech to counter hers, without involving the law? Sounds good to me.

Of course now if anything happens to her you are to blame, so be careful.


edit: spelling

[unpossibles]

73. if I suggested she was going to round me up in a nazi death camp

you might have a point.

lol.

but yeah, the right and the left are exactly the same like you said earlier. lol.

[JonQ]

76. The fringes are pretty similiar actually

I wish they'd get together and form a third party, so the sane folks can have a try at running the country.

And nazi comparisons are where the line is crossed? Good thing no liberal ever made any of those in the past 8 years.

[unpossibles]

77. how many fringe lefties threatened to "water the tree of liberty" at a Bush event?

How many murders were there by fringe lefties who distrusted the government during the Bush years?


Yeah, exactly the same.

Again, just to be nice and please don't misconstrue my meaning, but your arguments might work better here if you did not seem to sound so.... well, never mind.

Time for the Daily Show.

[JonQ]

78. Those exact words? Don't know

how many said bush was a war criminal, hitler, should be executed, and so forth? More than one.

How many murders can actually be tied to fringe righties who distrusted the government? Not as many as you're trying to make out. For instance this guys murder has already been deemed a political assassination, in a complete absence of evidence proving that. Doing that tends to inflate the numbers. I suppose if you were to argue that every murder that occured in the last 8 years was due to hatred of bush then yeah, it was pretty bad.

[unpossibles]

81. Are you for real?

You don't think the news existed before 2008? Do you honestly think that if someone showed up armed and holding a sign calling for violent revolution, we would not have heard about that?

As for the murders, I am not counting all murders, but I am counting the ones from rightwing asshats who are trying to "save America" by shooting children's plays at liberal churches, shooting cops, shooting their families, security guards, yes.

So, no I don't think they are the same at all, even if you include the anti-Bush rhetoric - which you may have forgotten was prompted by things like Bush starting a war based on bullshit which killed a lot of real people. But yeah, that's just like trying to give everyone healthcare, so again both sides are the same.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[JonQ]

85. I see, so the protestors killed this guy

they showed up armed to a protest, didn't shoot anyone, and that is what killed this poor man.

I had no idea holstered firearms had the ability to hang someone in another state. Please, tell me more of the magical abilities of these wonderful devices.

And most of those people weren't really traced back to any major political party, you'll find with some research that those radicals tend to hate both parties equally.

[unpossibles]

87. You're not making any sense

Where did I say the armed teabaggers killed the census worker?

I think they are all symptoms of the same thing, and while many of them DO seem to hate both parties, they are also right wing and anti-government and like to talk about how "both sides are the same" all the time, so perhaps you'll understand why I'm a bit confused by you stating the same kind of meaningless rhetoric here.

And I also notice that those same people who now distance themselves from the GOP and claim "they're all the same" were strangely supportive of the people they allegedly hated for 8 years. Or perhaps you're trying to say the Teabaggers are the same people who protested the war and just forgot how to spell all of a sudden or something?

[tavalon]

106. Sadly, I'm afraid you are right

I'm becoming more and more fringe left so I wish it weren't so, but I do think the mushy middle is destined to run this country.

[Forkboy]

75. Yelling fire in a theater actually is protected now.

I hate to use Wiki, but it's correct in this case, and easier than tracking it all down from various sources. I only have so much time between periods of the Sharks/Canucks game. ;)

--

"Shouting fire in a crowded theater" is a frequent misquoting of Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.'s opinion in the United States Supreme Court case Schenck v. United States in 1919. The misquote fails to mention falsely shouting fire to highlight that speech which is merely dangerous and false which can be distinguished from truthful but also dangerous. The quote is used as an example of speech which serves no conceivable useful purpose and is extremely and imminently dangerous so that resort to the courts or administrative procedures is not practical and expresses the permissible limitations on free speech consistent with the terms of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution.

Holmes, writing for a unanimous majority, ruled that it was illegal to distribute flyers opposing the draft during World War I. Holmes argued this abridgment of free speech was permissible because it presented a "clear and present danger" to the government's recruitment efforts for the war. Holmes wrote:

The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic. <...> The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent.

Holmes wrote of falsely shouting fire, because, of course, if there were a fire in a crowded theater, one may rightly indeed shout "Fire!"; one may, depending on the law in operation, even be obliged to. Falsely shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater, i.e. shouting "Fire!" when one believes there to be no fire in order to cause panic, was interpreted not to be protected by the First Amendment.

The First Amendment holding in Schenck was later overturned by Brandenburg v. Ohio, which limited the scope of banned speech to that which would be directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action (e.g. a riot). The test in Brandenburg is the current High Court jurisprudence on the ability of government to proscribe speech after that fact. Despite Schenck being limited, the phrase "shouting fire in a crowded theater" has since come to be known as synonymous with an action that the speaker believes goes beyond the rights guaranteed by free speech, reckless or malicious speech, or an action whose outcomes are blatantly obvious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater

[unpossibles]

79. I appreciate the info!

I was being more generalist in the idea of inciting panic/violence/riot, but I appreciate it.

[Forkboy]

80. You're welcome.

I didn't even know this until a few years back, and always assumed it was still illegal, which is probably for the best. If I had known it wasn't I might have tried it as a kid. :evilgrin:

[unpossibles]

82. Which is probably why our parents did not tell us! lol. nt

[tavalon]

107. Nope, they didn't know

[kestrel91316]

31. How long have you been a RW and Michele Bachman APOLOGIST??

Does it pay well?

[Zoeisright]

39. +1

[JonQ]

48. Lame retort

how long have you favored censorship and guilty until proven innocent? You are advocating arresting a person because someone they didn't like was murdered. Not because they did it, but because they, along with many other people, publicly expressed disgust with such a person. I don't suppose you or DU in general would take any blame should bush be assassinated?

Seriously, on what evidence are you people working? Because you really are wasting your time here, go to the cops and tell them everything you know, you seemed to have solved the case via an internet news clip.

Clearly your talents are being wasted here.

[madeline_con]

50. -1

[Zoeisright]

55. +2

I can keep this up too.

[Forkboy]

59. How long have you hated free speech?

And does the RW pay you well to do it?

Hey, this lobbing about of mindless accusations is pretty easy!

[Beer on a stick]

70. How long have your emotions and histrionic clouded your ability to reason?

[donco6]

66. Who complained about the soldiers?

Point to a post.

[tavalon]

103. Point

However, you do know who we're talking about here, right?

Even though she amuses me to no end, Bachmann needs to be off the national stage. She's like Palin. Amusing, but too venomous to be allowed to stay.

[CJCRANE]

112. Anti-war protesters do not have a TV news channel in Iraq

deliberately broadcasting propaganda to the insurgents.

If the anti-war protesters were in Iraq and had co-opted an elected Iraqi official and a TV station to broadcast their propaganda to an audience of potential insurgents...then your analogy might hold water.

[pundaint]

140. Every dead soldier can be blamed on Bush Cheney Rice KBR and Rumsfeld

and yes your logic was twisted.

[Junkdrawer]

6. "Michele Bachmann's Census Theories Too Much For Glenn Beck"

As we related yesterday, Michele Bachmann has drawn a line in the sand, and will not fill out the Census, and no one really cares because who in America really wants to see government resources allocated to the Bachmann demographic, anyway? Nevertheless, Bachmann is the Neda Agha Soltan of fighting ACORN and the Census. "Why does the government need our phone numbers?" complains Bachmann, making me wonder if she plans on robo-calling her constituents come re-election time. You know I'll be watching for that!

Anyway, yesterday, Michele Bachmann went on the Glenn Beck Common Sense Comedy Hour to talk about all of this. Understandably, Bachmann is concerned with whether the government should know about its citizens' "mental stability." And here is one of Bachmann's amazing insights:

BACHMANN: You know the question that's not on this survey, Glenn? "Are you a U.S. citizen?" This would be your perfect opportunity to find out how many illegal aliens are in the United States.

...

But here's the revelatory part of Bachmann's conversation: It appears that there actually is a point at which you can even out-bonkers Glenn Beck! Watch as the video gets to about the two-minute mark. That's when Bachmann starts up her "OMGZ! THE INTERNMENT CAMPZ" spiel. Beck starts shaking his head in disbelief, and then just shuts her down, mid-thought! Is that a bridge too far for Glenn Beck, who runs the most realistic Doom Room in Cable news? Maybe! Of course, I can't help but notice that Beck set Bachmann up perfectly to proffer that answer.

...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/26/michele-bachmanns-census_n_221427.html

[tavalon]

109. Wow, she outBecked, Beck?

That is no small feat.

[kenfrequed]

152. Really?

Because I found his response to be muted and not terribly meaningful.

[Occulus]

8. DAMMIT... I did it AGAIN........

I hit 'unrec' instead of 'rec'. Mea culpa, that's once yesterday and once today....

:banghead: I need to be more careful, but we also need an undo for that.

[armyowalgreens]

10. I don't believe this has been ruled a homicide yet.

So lets not start saying things that we may regret.

[ThoughtCriminal]

12. Census Worker - I'm sickened by this

I've been working for the Census since March. Thankfully, in the office rather than the field, but I work with our listers every day.

And yes, there are areas where the field staff encounters threats and harassment for doing their job - especially in Meth-Lab and Black-Helicopter country (pretty much the same territory).

[walldude]

13. Rachel has the story on now!!!!

[Tangerine LaBamba]

22. That journalist made it very clear

that it's not been determined to be a homicide yet, and he's been on the story since the body was discovered on September 12.

There's plenty about which to bash Michelle Bachmann - no need to piggyback on this poor man's death, the cause of which we don't yet know. Strikes me as opportunistic and ghoulish..............................

[Kievan Rus]

14. She needs to be impeached, pure and simple

We wouldn't tolerate a Congressperson that was an active Klansmen who burned crosses and promoted violence against blacks, or an open neo-Nazi that denied the Holocaust and advocated anti-Semitic attacks. Michelle Bachmann ought to be impeached.

This is scary, scary, scary. The last time a lunatic committed an act of violence because of what a nutty government representative said, we were inching towards the Civil War.

[Beer on a stick]

21. Michelle Bachmann poured Orange Julius on my mom's magazine!

[DeepBlueC]

246. you get a gold star for that one, sir

:thumbsup:

[Hepburn]

24. I am just sick over this.

What the hell is going on!

[dflprincess]

28. He was 51 - that's hardly old

Not that his age really matters, but I'm a bit older than him and I don't consider myself "old".

Too bad Bachmann can't be charged for this.

[kestrel91316]

29. He wasn't an old man. He was 51. That's MIDDLE AGE.

[TransitJohn]

34. I don't think the average human lifespan is 102

so it's not middle age.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ladywnch]

53. so call us a liar for 9 years. the average age in this country is 84

so 42 would be smack dab in the middle..

[spooky3]

118. the point is that 51 is a LOT closer to 42 than it is to 84 - and 84 is

an underestimate since it factors in infant and child deaths, and people who die by violence, car accident, etc. in their teens, 20s, etc.

What's strange to me is that calling 51 "old" is like lumping them together with people who are 20 years OR MORE older. But no one would lump 51 year olds together with people 20 years YOUNGER. WTF?

At 51, you can't retire for many more years. You are usually at the peak of your earning years and have the same mental capacities or with some abilities, only slightly slower performance than in your 20s. How does that fit "old"?

If we didn't have so many ugly stereotypes about aging in this society, this would be a trivial matter of opinion.

51 is very definitely in the middle of adult life, in any case.

[ladywnch]

136. exactly.

[RebelOne]

122. You are wrong.

From Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_age

Middle age is the period of life beyond young adulthood but before the onset of old age. Various attempts have been made to define this age, which is around the third quarter of the average life span of human beings.
According to Collins Dictionary, this is "... usually considered to occur approximately between the ages of 40 and 60".
The OED gives a similar definition but with a later start point "... the period between youth and old age, about 45 to 60".
The US Census lists middle age as including both the age categories 35 to 44 and 45 to 54, while prominent social scientist, Erik Erikson, sees it ending a little later and defines middle adulthood as between 40 and 65.

[AspenRose]

133. "Forty is the old age of youth; Fifty is the youth of old age." --Victor Hugo

[Critters2]

193. Just back from visiting a woman who is 104, and surprisingly healthy.

So, by your calculations, 52 is middle age.

[ScreamingMeemie]

175. Oh thank God I don't have to type it.

:applause:

As a 39 year old I really don't want to be an old woman in 12 years.

Ahhh... the follies of the truly young and/or stupid. :hi:

[JuniperLea]

188. I'm 52 but won't consider myself as old until I hit 75 or so...

Most of the women in my family live to be near 100... my great granny coming the closest, at 99.75 years.

[ScreamingMeemie]

198. Wow...that's terrific.

May you live just as long. :hi:

[JuniperLea]

201. Great Granny beat me royal in Scrabble...

Two weeks before she left us... If I can keep my wits like she did, I'm all for it!

:hi:

[Generic Brad]

33. My gut reaction was outrage

And then I mulled over the fact that we don't know all the facts. I think we would be wise to not add to the heated rhetoric until we know more facts. If it turns out that it is what it initially appears to be, then I will be right there with you on the condemnation of Bachmann. But until we know the facts, I urge you to reconsider blaming this death on anyone. We don't want to fan the flames of hate against the right unless it is warranted.

[Corgigal]

40. CBS article with some extra info

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/23/national/main5333961.shtml

I'm still amazed they could keep it quiet this long.

[Junkdrawer]

49. Officials kept the death quiet for 10 days...I'm guessing it will be ruled a suicide..

Politically inconvenient for high profile Republicans to have it be a "homicide".

His family will not only lose their breadwinner, but also his insurance. So sad.

[Barack_America]

61. I think they possibly would have, but now with the national attention?

Unlikely.

This guy was either killed by someone because of his census position or killed himself and set it up to appear that way.

The media is not likely to let this go. They won't report the "news", but by God no one exhausts a scandal like they do.

[Junkdrawer]

64. Media attention has never stopped them in the past...

Suicide. Case closed. Disagree and it's a "conspiracy theory."

[Barack_America]

67. Maybe. But it seems that an FBI agent leaked this story.

I'll bet that the local authorities tried to cover this up for sure. But someone tipped off the FBI and it seems they are taking this seriously.

OPM director John Berry released a statement:
http://blogs.govexec.com/fedblog/2009/09/opm_director_on_bill_sparkmans.php

How much do you want to be he checked in with the FBI before releasing this? His language seems to signal he thinks something is up. Doubt he'd let this go without answers.

[Junkdrawer]

68. I imagine there is heavy pressure to close the books and rule it a suicide...

I suspect there is someone on the inside holding out or it would have been so ruled at the time of the announcement.

But they did keep it quiet during the 9/12 media extravaganza. So "cover up" had the upper hand. I'm not optimistic.

[Rebubula]

144. 3rd option

Killed by someone doing something illegal and made to look like something else. Throw the dogs off the trail so to speak.

[Corgigal]

83. actually i think it will be the opposite

they so wanted it to be ruled a suicide but are unable. Which is why this some of the info was released tonight. If it was a suicide we would never have heard another word.

[Forkboy]

60. Loonies with a platform. The GOP in a nutshell.

[TheMadMonk]

71. How many people here have expressed a wish for (a certain class of criminal)...

...to share accomodations with a 300 lb cell mate with amorous intentions?

Wishing harm on others is wishing harm on others.

[CJCRANE]

113. But there's a difference between an anonymous blogger on a message board

and an elected official speaking on national TV.

Surely private citizens and elected officials have different responsibilities?

[TheMadMonk]

245. Yes and no. The only real difference lies in the size of the audience.

It is the responsibility of any decent citizen, private or in the public spotlight to behave (and express themselves) humanely, whatever the provocation.

Expressing glee at the prospect of an individual being repeatedly arse raped arguably makes that happy chappy a worse person than the torturer who (however wrongfully) believes he is working to extract valuable information with the potential to save lives.

[cherish44]

88. 51 is an "old man"? Shit!

I guess at 42 I'd better start learning how to knit and stocking up on Geritol soon.

[Forkboy]

92. It's all relative.

When I was 20 50 seemed as old as dirt. Now that I'm 41 I'm going to call it "middle age". :)

[Critters2]

192. I'm 50, and can barely sit up long enough to type this,

what with one foot in the grave and all.

[pitohui]

212. oh ffs, way to miss the point everyone, yes, by nature's standards 51 is old

i don't like it either but mother nature expected us to reproduce and get the fuck off the planet a good 10 years before age 51!

we have silly and unrealistic ideas about aging, and a cancer victim of 51 is not feeling himself to be in the springtime of youth nor does he have what it takes to go hand to hand combat w. fucktards

sheesh!!!!

why don't we jump on the killers and those who egg on the killers, instead of a poster who doesn't express every fucking word w. the skill of a fucking hemingway

read "old" as "older," can we at least fucking agree that 51 is OLDER or do we have to be completely delusional and merry poppins all the fucking time

i'm old, you other people in my age group, GUESS WHAT, you're old, get over yourself!!! we're not ancient, we're not antiques, we're not "extraordinary," but come on!!! 50 is not a spring chicken any more so stop expecting your ass to be kissed and you'll waste a lot less time being all offended

[cherish44]

218. Well if you're a caveman than yeah 50 is old

Mother Nature gave men nipples, what's the point of that? She ain't perfect

[chatnoir]

90. Why did this take 10 days to come out??

[Barack_America]

91. Because local law enforcement was trying to cover it up.

That's my guess, considering the tip for the AP article came from an "unauthorized law enforcement source", i.e. the FBI.

[annm4peace]

94. send a letter to Bachman

She make me so sick. We should print off the victim's picture and mail that to her also and maybe put a hand print in red. Say.. his blood is on your hands. And words do hurt.

[JeanGrey]

96. Then you don't know much about Clay County, KY.

My entire family is from there and if you are from the government don't go wandering around in the woods by yourself. You could get killed.

[Barack_America]

97. Ah, so it's his fault.

[tavalon]

110. I don't think that's what she was trying to say

but neither was it likely Bachmann's fault, loony as she is.

[JeanGrey]

115. Oh of course not! I'm just telling you how it is there.

Back up in those hills it hasn't changed much.

[Quantess]

104. It's so convenient for you to say your entire family is from Clay County, KY.

That is all.

[JeanGrey]

116. It's true. Mother and father's side.

[Ganja Ninja]

114. I doubt he was just "wandering around the in woods".

And maybe the good people of Clay County should have to compensate this poor man's family for this atrocity.

[JeanGrey]

117. They probably thought he was looking for

stills.

[Ganja Ninja]

111. Perhaps the US Marshals will have to escort the census workers

in Kentucky and send the bill for their services to the state.

[msanthrope]

178. No. Let the KY Census get a low count. Fewer Repukes in the House. n/t

[irislake]

119. How sad.

How terribly sad.

[dem mba]

121. AHEM!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0162907/

The Census Taker

Exasperated by his intrusions, a family shoots a census taker and tries to hide his body from a detective

and...

http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title.jsp?stid=502218

Husbands, Wives, Money and Murder (1989)

A suburban couple accidently murder a census taker and must figure out where to hide the body before their dinner guests arrive.


I'm just trying to say that people were dark and twisted long before Bachmann spouted off. Can we please just wait until we know all the facts before we assign blame and point fingers over a man's life?

[Joanne98]

126. Yep. She sure did and she should pay for it.

[grace0418]

127. "your insane rantings can be kept in your own home"...No, she needs to be committed.

In a rubber room where she can no longer harm anyone.

She is a waste of DNA and how anyone voted for her is beyond my understanding.

[elmerdem]

128. Why not stop

bickering & call Rep. Bachmann? You can ask her if she has any remorse for her statements. Ask if she is going to comment publicly on this? Don't waste your energy arguing with each other, DO SOMETHING! Washington office=202-225-2331.

[Soylent Brice]

129. goes to show you how far the other side is willing to go.

the disillusioned know no bounds.

K&R

[AuntPatsy]

132. I wouldn't say congratulations but for the rest I agree with it....I would add if voices like hers

are not stopped this is but the tipping point...

[Island Blue]

134. Very possible. Or

the murder(s) were running a meth lab. Lots of those in eastern KY and I'd imagine they wouldn't be too happy with anyone showing up at their door. You may very well be correct though. sigh

[Unca Jim]

138. She's an embarrassment...

but we have squeaky clean elections here in Minnesota.

She is her district's elected representative.

There are a lot of nutjob idiots around who keep voting for her and agree with her.

Ironically, as has been mentioned before, if her dipshit supporters refuse the census they will be under-represented and Bachmann might lose her seat.

[newtothegame]

141. When did she shoot him? n/t

[Lone_Star_Dem]

142. Assuming he was murdered and it was influenced by her words, is she responsible?

Back when Clinton was in office we had a whack-a-doodle nut who drove around in a white utility van which was covered in spray painted, in day-glow orange paint no less, conspiracy theories about the government. They professed how Clinton was New Word Order Nazi out to steal American's rights and destroy the planet, etc. He had it rigged up a PA system and he used to park it at public parks and events while he gave speeches about the evils of the government.

Why am I mentioning him you wonder? Because today it's nuts like him who get air time on FOX News. Which is where Bachmann gave her nutty interview ranting about the evils of the U.S. Census. My point is, hate filled people spreading misinformation and propaganda have always been around. They just used to be reduced to public access television or their vans PA system. Now that FOX News exists to spread insanity and propaganda it's becoming much too easy for these people to be heard by people with unstable minds who believe their words without question.

Sadly, until enough Americans rise up and denounce FOX New's methods they're not going to change. Why should they? They're making money, it's not as if they're governed by ethics.

People like Bachmann and Beck do share some responsibility for their insane messages, but in the end I feel the greatest responsibility of all is on the media source which specializes in the cultivation of such insane, hate filled spectacles.

[SemperEadem]

143. sounds like that man was lynched

I totally agree with your view about bachmann. She is dangerous and should always be considered so.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

145. Called her office and became a Facebook "fan" so I could write on her page

I told her office and her FB friends that she should be investigated as a possible accessory to murder. The stammering on the phone was priceless, and she needs to wear this label around her neck--she has truly earned it. I want her picture to start coming up when I google "murder" and "lynching". How would that poll with focus groups?

[ThePantaloon.com]

156. Bachmann's Co-Conspirators

I'm actually surprised they knew how to spell "Fed." Welcome to a brave new world where wingnuts bring assault rifles to Obama speeches. I weep for humanity.

[Forkboy]

157. There's shit in this thread that scares me a lot more than anything Bachmann is saying.

Damn, people, do you comprehend the First Amendment or not? After reading this thread it's downright scary how many liberals and Democrats would be willing to shit on the Constitution because of emotion driven anger and fear. Does the Patriot Act not ring a bell with anyone? :shrug:

[proReality]

158. The mentality of those in hill country KY is still in the 19th century.

They hate anyone who works for the government, and since they very well have been working a still, making meth or growing weed (or all of that at once) they could have seen him as a huge threat. And my guess is that the word "FED" was carved into his chest, not written with a magic marker or ballpoint pen.

If the murderer(s) have access to a TV and/or radio, which they most likely do, Bachman and the other evil jackasses are very guilty of instigating this innocent man's death.

[mod mom]

159. DETAILS-Sparkman was a 51-year-old single father who once battled Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma:

William E. Sparkman Jr. was a 51-year-old single father who once battled Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma while he pursued his teaching degree, according to a March 2008 article profiling the London, Kentucky man.
Sparkman worked two jobs while he earned his degree and was treated for cancer.

-snip
According to The Sentinel-Echo, Sparkman moved to Laurel County, Kentucky as part of a work assignment for the Boy Scouts of America. He was a father to his son Josh.

"When I moved here, my son was about to enter elementary school," he said. "He was having some difficulties."
Sparkman enjoyed the volunteering and quickly became interested in education. He was eventually offered a position as an instructional assistant, which he accepted.
Sparkman worked as an assistant for nine years before enrolling in online classes from online Western Governor's University.


Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/23/bill-sparkman-census-work_n_297220.html

[1776Forever]

160. If you haven't seen Glenn Beck and Bachmann rant about the Census here's a video from Media Matters

Census worker hanged, is anti-government extremism behind murder?
September 23, 10:44 PMTop News ExaminerScott McDowell

The FBI is investigating the hanging death of a census worker in rural Kentucky. He was found hanged in the Daniel Boone National Forest in southwest Kentucky on September 12th, but the story is just now coming to light.

While the FBI hasn’t said whether this is a murder or suicide, it appears this may be a murder linked to anti-government sentiment. The word “FED” was scrawled across the chest of 51 year old Bill Sparkman’s body. It has not been released whether the word was written or scratched into his chest.
Bill Sparkman was a part time census taker and teacher. His truck was found nearby with his work computer still inside. He had worked for the census since 2003.

Anti-government anger and fear surrounding the census has been at a high this summer. Conservative commentators and republican politicians have expressed their concerns that the Obama administration will use the data collected for political gains. See the video at this link:

http://www.examiner.com/x-24103-Top-News-Examiner~y2009m9d23-Census-worker-hanged-is-antigovernment-extremism-behind-murder

[Hamlette]

161. OLD MAN!?!?!?!?! he was 51, a child! Wash your mouth out! n/t

[GreenTea]

164. No doubt about it-Bachmann's lies for political gain & to slam Obama is a DIRECT result of provoking

the idiot fringe, the pigman's dittoheads & lunatics, the un-informed, undereducated to hate and kill...It's Bachmann and ALL republicans....They all share the same sick, controlling elitist, the selfish hateful, corporate loving republican ideology, and is the reason that they are ALL republicans and what defines a republican.

The same way, the lunatic ignorant morons are whipped up into a frenzy by the same "Christian" types and who are ALWAYS republicans, neocons, ALWAYS, to go out and kill pro choice doctors, who legally preform abortions by the many who want & need them.

No excuse or bullshit saying anything else or pointing fingers elsewhere....it's these same greedy slimy racist, hateful lying republicans, the power hungry, power mad, intolerant assholes, the corporate fascist republicans!!

[southernyankeebelle]

166. Call Ms Bachmann and let her know what you think 1=[phone]

it will make you feel like you did something good. I was polite and didn't curse. So please if you call be polite. Ask how she feels about spreading the hate. I also called Speaker and the Minority Speaker of the House and asked why haven't the censured this woman for the hate she sends out.

[JohnWxy]

167. When they catch the primitives who did this they should not go to jail they should be put where they

belong. In the primate house at a zoo. They should spend the rest of their lives there. (unless it's a capitol crime in that state, which i doubt).

[Autonomy]

170. I am a skeptic

and I can see the potential connection between Bachmann and this (seeming) murder. More remains to be seen if there is truly a connection, but I absolutely would not rule it out at this point.

[sinkingfeeling]

172. 51 is an 'old man' and where did you get he had cancer?

[LaPera]

173. 51....That's certainly not "old" - Not in this day and age....

Madonna & the late Micheal Jackson (a month shy) both 51 and Bruce is 60 - He's definitely NOT "old"! Omama's 48 & George Clooney 49 hardly old.

[WI_DEM]

177. Where did you hear he had cancer?

and 51 is not old, but I agree with the rest of the post.

[NOLALady]

184. Google

http://sentinel-echo.com/local/local_story_094220413.html

[Skittles]

185. I detest the gal as much as any decent person does

but shouldn't we wait for the facts?

[NOLALady]

186. R.I.P.

“I’d been knocked down, but I refused to be knocked out,” he said. “Those brick walls will appear from time to time in your career. Do not let them stop you. There are no failures, just teaching moments.” Bill Sparkman

[lillypaddle]

187. "Old Man"????? 51 is an "Old Man"

What are you, twelve????? sheesh.

[YOY]

207. Although I have my suspicions I want to wait until all the facts are in.

And there is a good chance my suspicions are correct from what facts we do know.

[pitohui]

210. an old fool just accused me of being a census worker

and for what? because i like to take long walks and brood byronically, well as byronically as middle aged female person can brood

this is some scary shit

anyone who uses their feet to get around could be accused of working for the census

[MasonJar]

215. The right wing hate talk show hosts and their counterparts in Congress

and elsewhere are certainly culpable when their speech incites violence. If they could be held accountable, they might censure some of their rhetoric, but otherwise I fear it is hopeless..

[DatManFromNawlins]

220. You are a kook

So I must ask, where does one find a tin-foil sleeping cap?