Is the French language sexist?

[armyowalgreens]

If there are 50 females and 1 male being addressed in a sentence, you use the masculine pronoun.

Il instead of Elle.

If there are any males being addressed, even if they are far outnumbered by females, you automatically use the masculine pronoun.

The language seems to place an emphasis on the dominance of masculine form.

Does this constitute sexism?

[Libertas1776]

1. It's like that with

all Romance languages. I remember thinking that very same thing when I was in the 5th grade learning Spanish.

There can be 1 million women in a room, but if after a "Where's Waldo" like search turns up one man, the group becomes masculine.

[SteppingRazor]

2. Also true with Spanish, Italian, and any other Latin-based language.

And, no, I don't think it's sexist. It's short hand, and it saves all of us trying to learn a language from having to learn yet another freaking verb tense.

[armyowalgreens]

3. But why don't they use the feminine form instead? Why is it masculine dominant?

[Recursion]

21. Ask that the other way: why do men have to share their pronoun

while women get one all to themselves?

[imdjh]

24. ooooh , wish I had thought of that. nt

[CTyankee]

23. verbs are not gendered. nt

[imdjh]

26. I don't know. "She fucked him." has never really rung true. Before pegging of course.

[Recursion]

28. All languages have semantic gender for all words

The question is what languages import those semantics into the syntax.

Romance languages import it into nouns and adjectives, recognizing masculine and feminine. Hellenic and Slavic languages add a neuter, as do Indo-Aryan languages.

Semitic languages import it into nouns and verbs (separating nouns and adjectives in Semitic languages is an attempt to force them to be more like Indo-European languages).

Bantu languages import it into nouns, and specifically incorporate it as part of what most other language families recognize as "number" (words have a masculine and a feminine form; combine the masculine and feminine form and they "breed", making a multiplicity, ie, plural. I think that's cool).

[CTyankee]

103. Of course, I was referring to Romantic languages such as French and Italian.

I don't know about other languages than Romantic ones (based in Latin). And of course, English. Hence, our confusion.

It is an extra hurdle to learn vocabulary as masc. or fem. which we don't have in English. My grandson is in an Italian immersion class in a PUBLIC school in Glendale, CA (wouldja believe?) where he has 90% of his day in Italian and 10% in English! There ya go!!!

[ohheckyeah]

I wonder if there's a French

equivalent of ya'll. Ya'll works for me. :-)

[Recursion]

14. Vous

English used to have a more standard "y'all", namely "you". "Thou" was for one person who was not one's superior (tu and vous had that, too, but it's been a while since that's been common use in France outside of very formal circumstances).

Ironically, since people mostly only hear "thou" in Church, it now has the opposite effect on English ears as it originally did: formality and ritual, rather than intimacy.

[SPedigrees]

53. I use 'you guys' regardless of gender. nt

[Critters2]

59. +1 nt

[Odin2005]

141. Same here, and "guys" itself is becoming a gender-neutral word.

Though I tend to pronounce it as "Y'uys"

[SPedigrees]

143. lol You can tell I'm a northerner; when I don't use 'you guys' I say 'you all.' nt

[enlightenment]

61. A lot of folks in Yorkshire still use

thee, thy, thou.

A nickname for folks from around South Yorkshire (Barnsley, if you're in Sheffield; Sheffield, if you're in Barnsley) is 'dee dar' - because their accent tends to make the 'th' sound like 'd' . . . 'thee, there'.

*I lean toward the 'd' sound being more Barnsley, but both groups still tend to use 'thee, thy, thou' in the vernacular*

[mrfrapp]

92. Agree

It's very rare I agree with somebody from Yorkshire, but as a Lancastrian I can confirm that the usage of thee, thy and thou is alive and well on this side of the island too.

[enlightenment]

112. Careful - we may be breaking some old law, agreeing with each other!

But the old forms are certainly charming, aren't they?

[subcomhd]

104. hey, yorkshire person

does anyone there ever say "get shed of" for "get rid of?"

[enlightenment]

110. Yep.

;)

[subcomhd]

133. one more question, ye for your? as in

get ye dog out of my yard.

[enlightenment]

135. Not that I've noticed.

Thee, Thy, Thou (Thine) are all forms of 'your' - it tends to sound more like "tha" (tha or tha's = thou or thou is).

It's a verbal abbreviation, more often than not - like the lost 't'.

If you're interested in the variety of dialects in England (Britain, all said) - go here:

http://sounds.bl.uk/maps/Accents-and-dialects.html

You can click through and listen to various interviews from all over the country.


Personally, I think the Yorkshire accent is the most pleasant of all the English accents . . . I may be a bit prejudiced, though . . . :)

[dmr]

84. Vous tous

:)

[imdjh]

4. No more so than English.

Some would argue perhaps that because France has a government office which makes rules then there is a deliberateness to the retention of certain Latin rules, but some people are a pain in the ass.

In English, the masculine is also the default. "If everyone would pick up HIS bag then we can board the plane." The "his or her" and "s/he" crap is exactly that.
The use of "their" as a sexless singular pronoun is simply bad English.

[Karenina]

7. "Their' has become common usage and as such will prevail.

[imdjh]

11. The operative word being "common".

I really hate that excuse. "Fucking-A." is in common usage, that doesn't mean I expect to hear it in a classroom.

[Odin2005]

37. Actually, "singular they" was used as far back as Chaucer.

Banning it's use forces one to use awkward usages like "he or she".

[anigbrowl]

41. If it was good enough for Shakespeare...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

Arise; one knocks. / ... / Hark, how they knock! — Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet
There's not a man I meet but doth salute me / As if I were their well-acquainted friend — Shakespeare, The Comedy of Errors

Of course Shakespeare was a vulgar playwright in an age when Latin and French considered superior, but given his deep influence on the modern English I'm happy to go along with him.

[JerseygirlCT]

45. LOL...

thank you.

[Arugula Latte]

67. Languages continually evolve.

I was an English major but I will not use "he" as the default anymore. I know how that practice made me feel when I was a little girl.

You can say "it doesn't matter" -- but it does matter. The message sent is that you are the other, the lesser, and not the norm.

You are male so you don't fully understand what that feels like, or maybe you don't care.

[fishwax]

74. It's not just common, it's also pretty ancient, dating back about as far as one can go

in written English. It's been used by our greatest writers, from Chaucer forward. There's no logical grammatical argument against it that stands up to close scrutiny, and it very rarely (if ever) drew complaint until it became popular as an explicitly gender neutral pronoun.

[redqueen]

75. "until it became popular as an explicitly gender neutral pronoun"

Hmmmm

:think:

[Odin2005]

139. Language Nazis tend to have reactionary political views.

"Nuff said.

[TroglodyteScholar]

93. You'll never catch me using it that way. n/t

[Berry Cool]

65. True, but it's both correct AND un-sexist to say, instead,

"If each of you will pick up your bag, then we can board the plane."

[Recursion]

5. Textbook French, maybe

A lot of the rules about pronouns go out the window when it's actually being spoken. "Ce" and "ces" are becoming general purpose pronouns. Nous, on fait comme le font les Francais.

[ddeclue]

6. Mon Dieu!:Many languages have such gender rules - English is an exception.

This sounds like either ignorance or a gratuitous French bashing thread.

German has THREE genders!

:rofl:

D.De Clue

[imdjh]

8. Sexless male, sexless female, and what is the third?

[izquierdista]

16. Neuter

German is like the Slavic languages in that there is a third class of nouns, the "neuter" ones.

[Recursion]

17. Masculine, feminine, neuter

Greek had that too; three separate declensions, plus consonant sandhi rules that shake out to 8 or 9 tables depending on who's counting. Greek also had singular, dual, and plural (more than 2).

You think French is confusing, try Arabic: gender rules apply not just to nouns and adjectives but to verbs too.

[imdjh]

22. There is a reason English is the international language.

[Recursion]

25. Yes: large, accurate cannons mounted on fast ships. NT

[imdjh]

29. Plus huge adaptable vocabulary due to being conquered and/or infiltrated by nearly everyone.

[Recursion]

34. Well, I think we've profited from not having an Academie Anglais

And, yes, I agree English's voraciousness for loans does make it a better choice for a world language than some, though there's a chicken-and-egg question there.

If I had to pick a world language today I'd choose Swahili. It was designed as a trade language anyways (it was originally an Arabic/Bantu pidgin).

[imdjh]

35. As long as it doesn't involve spitting, clicking, clucking, or rolling r's I'm OK with it.

[Occulus]

90. Swahili is actually a very beautiful language when spoken

For example, "Baba Yetu", the title screen music from "Civilization IV", is sung in Swahili (the words are the Lord's Prayer, actually). It's a very liquid language:

"Baba yetu, yetu uliye
Mbinguni yetu, yetu, amina
Baba yetu, yetu, uliye
Jina lako litukuzwe

Baba yetu, yetu uliye
Mbinguni yetu, yetu, amina
Baba yetu, yetu, uliye
Jina lako litukuzwe

Utupe leo chakula chetu
Tunachohitaji utusamehe
Makosa yetu, hey
Kama nasi tunavyowasamehe
Waliotukosea usitutie
Katika majaribu, lakini
Utuokoe, na yule, milelea milele"

The song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G30MhXmlZGE

[Odin2005]

109. It's grammar is also itself very interesting.

It's a prefixing, agglutinative language.

[Selatius]

89. The British Empire and the British Army probably helps explain why English is all over the place nt

[anigbrowl]

43. Irish has 5 declensions. It's a real drag.

[Karenina]

12. A female is neuter until she's married or over 30.

ALL of the languages with which I have some familiarity transport sexism. Utah Phillips, American musician and storyteller extraordinaire, said if we could conquer this first I/Other our problems would solve themselves.

[Recursion]

19. You mean "madchen"? That's a diminuitive

All diminuitives are neuter in German.

[Canuckistanian]

50. Finnish uses no gender pronouns at all

"hän" is used for he AND she.

[NoPasaran]

108. English has gender rules, but most nouns are neuters

Ships, however, are feminine.

[izquierdista]

9. From a long time ago

Gender (and what you call 'sexism') has been in language for a long time -- it's a basic distinction that makes up an important part of communication. Some languages make more of a distinction and others less, but I don't think there is a natural language that is completely gender neutral. To get truly gender neutral, you have to start speaking Esperanto.

Language is a conservative force in society, because adults want the young to conform and maintain the language, and children are always picking up slang and foreign phrases and injecting them into the language. As sexist as you think Latin languages are, they are less so than Slavic languages, where in addition to nouns, verbs have to also be in the correct masculine or feminine form.

[Recursion]

20. Or Mandarin

Chinese makes fewer gender distinctions than English -- there's only one third-person pronoun ("ta4") that can be "he", "she", or "it". Yet I wouldn't call Chinese society a hotbed of gender equality.

[KhartoumCharacter]

49. Wrong

Absolutely not true. While Mandarin Chinese does not use grammatical gender, there are three different pronouns. (and it's not ta4, it's ta1)

他 = he
她 = she
and
它 = it, inanimate object

And just as in French, if there is a group of females with one male, you use the masculine version.

They, all males: 他们
They, all females: 她们
They, females, and 1 male: 他们

[Recursion]

123. Mmm-hmm... And how do you pronounce them?

"Ta". It has one 3rd-person pronoun that can be written 3 ways.

[Rebubula]

10. Language as sexism

You really have too much time on your hands...

[imdjh]

13. Or maybe it's a really good set up for a topic.

[armyowalgreens]

15. No need to be rude about it. Why waste my time with that?

[tocqueville]

18. byzantine discussion : the Turks are on the remparts and you discuss the sex of angels

typical and sure a bad omen

[GoneOffShore]

111. I wish I'd said that.

How apposite -

And I suspect the OP has some relation to my "friend" Ouroboros, the indigo snake who hasn't appeared on this thread - Yet.

[CTyankee]

27. In Italian, the word for table, "tavolo," is masc. and magically becomes fem. when referring

to the dinner table at dinner time. "A tavola!" is the call to everyone that "dinner is ready!"

[Recursion]

30. That's not a dative? NT

[CTyankee]

36. Hmm, I haven't seen "dative" since I took Latin. It IS a noun.

Nouns and pronouns are gendered and adjectives. Verbs are not.

[Recursion]

124. Right... nouns have cases, one of which is dative

Others include nominative, genitive, accusative (English keeps these only in pronouns: he is nominative, his is genitive, and him is accusative and dative). Dative, locative, and ablative (from Latin) have mostly fallen out of use in the Latin-derived languages, but are sometimes found in common expressions. I have no idea if "to the table" is one of those, it just could be.

[CTyankee]

125. I'm fairly certain "a tavola" is an acknowledgment that preparing the evening meal

is the province of women. It's the only time I've seen this kind of switch in Italian, but I am not a native speaker so I don't know for sure. It's prolly a good guess, tho...

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

129. No sexism in tavola vs. tavolo... tavola as in "tavola calda" - hot table

to indicate casual establishments that serve hot snacks or food. Fare la tavola is to 'make the table' as in placing napkins, silverware, etc. Tavola is generally used for a dining surface.

Latin has "tabula rasa" as tabula became tavola. Tavolo is used for non-dining.

[CTyankee]

142. Yep, you are right. I had forgotten about the tavole calde. We have a nice one

in a little Italian market here in New Haven where I love to get dinner items and is the only place in town that I can find panna da cucina.

[Libertas1776]

33. Yes, I could never understand

how exactly an inanimate object can be either male or female. But I guess I'm jaded with English being my first tongue.

[TrogL]

31. I former colleague of mine referred to women as "it" - is that an improvement?

[armyowalgreens]

32. I refer to God as "it".

[Odin2005]

38. No, it's just because the Neuter and Masculine genders fused in Late Latin.

when the case endings fell off.

[nemo137]

116. And it's bloody well been down hill from there!

I kid, I would not want to speak Latin on a daily basis.

[Odin2005]

126. Why, the Romans did? LOL!

:P

[nemo137]

137. And look what happened to them!

:p

[Odin2005]

138. LOL! They were conquered by crazy barbarians speaking insanity-inducing Germanic languages!

Seriously, I tried to learn German once, gave up because it was driving me nuts. :rofl:

[Taverner]

39. That's all Romance Languages

As well as some Germanic ones

This is about as silly as saying the word "Mandatory" is sexist because it has "man" in it

[YOY]

47. and Slavic Languages.

n.t.

[Taverner]

48. They do it too? Interesting

[YOY]

56. Yup.

but just because a word sounds masculine or femenine is no gaurantee that it is a masculine or feminine subject.

In Russian, "Dog" and "Cat" by simple reference are feminine nouns but can be in reference to male animals. THere are specific nouns for male dogs and cats but only if you want to be specific that you are talking about a male dog. Most of the time it's just "dog" when talking about any Dog.

In Bulgarian "Dog" is actually neutral. specific gender nouns exist if you want to be specific but most of the time "Dog" (just like Russian) is talking about any dog regardless of gender.

Same thing for "Doctor"...always masculine. Could be a female doctor...but the word doctor is alway masculine.

[KhartoumCharacter]

77. What's the picture? n/t

[Taverner]

87. Teddy Jr and Ted sledding, after his kid lost a leg to cancer

[HamdenRice]

40. German: The only language in which a battleship is feminine, but a young girl is neuter

I heard that somewhere

[Libertas1776]

46. In English,

aren't ships, including battleships, usually referred to as "her?"

[izquierdista]

63. As are battleaxes

[Call Me Wesley]

54. Nope.

While 'das junge Mädchen' is truly neuter, ships change gender. The ship (das Schiff) is neuter. The warship (das Schlachtschiff) is neuter. The battlecruiser (der Kreuzer) is male, also the destroyer (der Zerstörer.)

Although, if addressed by name of the ship, it becomes female, e. g. die Bismarck, die Prinz Eugen, etc.

[BlooInBloo]

42. Aargh. Not the idiotic gendered languages "issue" again.

[YOY]

60. +1.

n.t.

[armyowalgreens]

66. Is it not a legitimate question?

Oh I'm sorry. Apparently it's beneath you.

[BlooInBloo]

70. After *every* other bad thing in the world is dealt with, this would be next on the list...

along with "In God We Trust" on coins.

[armyowalgreens]

71. Yes because we can only ponder one issue at a time.

:sarcasm:

[BlooInBloo]

76. There are approximately 323464363 brazillion things more important...

than the existence of gendered languages.

[armyowalgreens]

78. Does it hurt you to ponder obscure questions? Do you always focus on what is "most important"?

Not to mention, "importance" is a fairly subjective term. Certain topics carry significance to some. While others may find the topic pointless or "unimportant".

[Hepburn]

119. I see "Ignored" is chatting with you.

Silence is golden...:hi:

[armyowalgreens]

121. OOGA BOOGA

[Nye Bevan]

130. ...which would explain why you have posted 7 times in this thread (nt)

[Posteritatis]

80. Imagine the reactions folks'd have to the odder gendered languages

I know of at least one language where "dangerous things" and "female humans" are the same gender...

[BlooInBloo]

86. Yah. I guess it's "discover other languages" day in school somewhere.

[armyowalgreens]

91. Superiority complexes suck.

[BlooInBloo]

94. (shrug) In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king...

Although that's better known, I much prefer the variant: I don't have to outrun the bear, I only have you outrun *you*.

There is no issue with my uber-ness, or belief in it - simply because such a belief doesn't exist. Per the sentiment expressed twice above, however, I can appreciate how you might think there I have such a belief.

[armyowalgreens]

95. A key component to a superiority complex is the subjects ignorance to it's existence.

[BlooInBloo]

96. zomg! You mean it must be true, since I denied it??? ohnoes!!!!

(facepalm)

Let me know when you stop beating your wife, k?

[armyowalgreens]

97. Straw man. I never said that your denial proves it.

[BlooInBloo]

100. I agree - you did not say those exact words in that exact order.

[armyowalgreens]

101. I've got to admit. I'm loving the foreplay.

[uppityperson]

117. shouldn't be an apostrophe in "its". Esp when taking someone to task for "superiority complex"

And your "subjects" should have that apostrophe "subject's"

[Hepburn]

120. +1...n/t

[armyowalgreens]

122. You are right. That is quite embarrassing.

I often practice poor grammar. Especially when I am rushing things.

[Julius Civitatus]

113. Agreed. This is an IDIOTIC non-issue. Waste of time.

Just my 2 cents.

[SPedigrees]

44. For a plural, you wouldn't use il, you'd use ils.

Male has always been the default. Same in the English language, collectively we're horsemen or firemen or whatever. Individually we're a horsewoman or a horseman, or in groups of one gender, horsemen and horsewomen, etc.

I guess English is gravitating to using 'people' and other more specific terms, such as 'horse people' or 'fire fighters.' But then it's a bit easier to implement gender neutral wording in English, since we don't have gender designations for every noun/object (from an apple to a zipper) as the French do.

[SoCalDem]

51. When we consider all the things troubling the world

linguistic gender must rank about :shrug:

[Beer on a stick]

52. No, but the fact you would ask that question is quite telling

Telling of what, I don't know, but quite telling.

[armyowalgreens]

55. Way to be passive aggressive.

[Beer on a stick]

58. Tell me about your childhood.......

[Warpy]

57. Well, males are such fragile creatures

that if you address the majority using the female form only, the males will get all wounded and stalk out in a huff.

The very suggestion that anything female could possibly apply to them! How could you?

[Gwendolyn]

98. Our company uses the female gender as default in all reports, internal communication.

None of the males seem to mind or ever stalk out in a huff. I've noticed a few other companies have instituted the same policy.

[Warpy]

107. That's great

You do realize I'm a sarcastic old bag and my reply was very tongue in cheek, right?

[Call Me Wesley]

62. It goes a bit deeper than that

since 'il' isn't always masculine. Would be easier to debunk if you gave me a French sentence addressing 50 females and 1 male.

What's next? You know that in Italian, the sun is masculine? In German it's female. The moon is female in Italian, in German it's male.

There's just no justice/fairness on this small world.

[Arugula Latte]

72. You know what's REALLY bizarre?

In French, the word for vagina is "le vagin." Not "la vagin" ... "le" -- masculine!

Masculine vagina? :wtf:

[Call Me Wesley]

79. Why do you still hate the French?

I thought this was over when le Shrub left office ... ;)

Well, I'm not defending any language here. There are a few slang words for the male part in French that are feminine. You just never know what you get. Those French are so o-là-là!

:rofl:

[Posteritatis]

81. The word derived from an, ah, somewhat different context then its current one. (nt)

[Gwendolyn]

83. Yes, have noticed that too! Also the word "milk."

Considering where it comes from it would seem logical to have it chalked up as femmie. But no. Le lait.

[raccoon]

132. In Mexican Spanish slang, "La verga" means the penis. Feminine penis? nt

[Swamp Rat]

64. Define "constitute."

:D

[Deja Q]

68. Is French kissing racist?

:shrug:

[Blue-Jay]

99. Or French toast?

Or freedom fries?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

105. "Freedom Fires" and "Freedom Toast" for the win!

[provis99]

106. I dunno. Is "Polish housekeeping" racist?

Cause my German grandma described messy homes as evidence of Polish housekeeping.

[JonQ]

69. I don't think it does

there language requires a gendered pronoun be used, there needs to be some convention, this works as well as the other way.

I don't really see it as an effort to oppress or belittle women.

[subcomhd]

73. A favorite from Spanish

La papa = the potato

El Papa = the Pope.

[subcomhd]

82. what's wrong with being sexy? nt

[MadHound]

85. The point of the matter isn't whether or not the language is sexist,

In fact that's a rather foolish question for a language that's been around for a couple of thousand years.

The question is whether or not French society itself is sexist. I would submit that while every society has elements of sexism in it, the French are less of a sexist society than, oh, say American society.

I will take a society whose language is full of male and female idioms, but is less sexist overall than a society which has a gender neutral language but is more sexist overall.

[Lautremont]

88. 'Ils,' not 'Il.'

No linguist, you.

[rvablue]

102. +1 n/t

[Norrin Radd]

114. Linguistic prescription is classist and reactionary; it does not

accurately describe language, which is mutable.

[Quantess]

115. I love the mutable aspect of language. I suppose that's to be expected for a liberal.

Conservatives, I predict, may be more distrustful of linguistic changes. But these mutations happen, like it or not.

I think it would be good if English spelling was more "mutable" toward being more predictable. English words need a thorough streamlining in the spelling department.

[Norrin Radd]

136. I agree.

[Odin2005]

140. I am amused by how prescriptivists decry the death of "whom" as if it was the end of the world.

A couple days ago a poster in the Lounge went on an angry rant about using the relative pronoun "that" with animate nouns (as in "The person that went to the store" because according to "proper English" ( :eyes: ) "who" is supposed to be used. :eyes:


Don't tell them that "be going to" has developed into a new auxiliary verb "gonna" marking the Immediate Future tense (Will is now Far-Future), or that normal people mostly use "can" and "could" where "must" and "might" used to be used. Don't tell them that "-'ve" has become an affix "-a" marking perfective aspect (woulda, shoulda, coulda, oughta).

The already know that "-ly" is falling off of adverbs (that's REAL good, dude!!!), and it's driving them insane.

[bridgit]

118. no...

[Xenotime]

127. Interesting observaion. I think you are right.

[Iggo]

128. Human civilization is sexist...

...and the language just reflects that.

[raccoon]

131. You must be a youngster, army. Not so long ago, the ENGLISH language was the same way.

It's only in recent years that people started saying, "His or her" or writing "s/he."

"Does this constitute sexism? "

Does the pope run in the woods?

[Greyhound]

134. Ever since the desert God of death conquered... n/t

[Nostalgic]

144. lui

It's weird how in French you have the word "lui" to mean either "his" or "her", which increases ambiguity. For example when you say "dis lui", it could mean "tell him" or "tell her". You can't tell what the speaker meant without more information.

You'd think they'd have fixed this up but they've kept it.