After 8 years of being here at DU I have come to this very strong conclusion

[LynneSin]

There are just some folks who won't be happy no matter what the democrats say.

Democrats could promise every american a new car and there would still be DUers to find something to bitch about it like the paint color is wrong or the engine isn't powerful enough.

No matter how full the glass is they will still see it mostly empty.

I never voted for Obama because I thought he was capable of fixing everything. I voted for him because I thought he had the best chance to take this country in the direction I would like to see it go. And I never NEVER thought that Obama would solve these problems in less than a year. Healthcare took decades to get royally f*cked-up and it won't fix itself in 6 months. But Obama has taken us further with healthcare than any other president ever.

I'm sure some of you will reply back and whine until you're blue in the face about how I'm a bad democrat or I don't love my country or I'm a sellout. Opinions are like assholes - everyone has one (myself included).

But I keep reminding myself that we DUers are not the Majority of the democratic party, we're not even a small minority. We're Political Armchair Quarterbacks who think we can do it better than any democrat elected to office.

I think Obama had a great speech and it was very to the point. I feel that he can get the public option passed but he spelled out exactly what the public option was and insured us that it was not 'government taking over your healthcare'. My 2 biggest concerns are always the pre-existing conditions and high costs of coverage - to be honest they rank way higher than the public option (although PO is still very important).

It was a good speech and I'm proud that I campaigned for Obama!

[DesertFlower]

1. i agree. nt

[rhett o rick]

220. If you don't intend to fight for decent health care, get out of the way. nt

[depakid]

326. There's not much these sorts would EVER fight for

Nope- they're sycophants who accept every sell out- every "compromise" and rationalization- no matter how dysfunctional the resulting policy- and no matter who it hurts.

[rhett o rick]

332. Their attitude is literally killing thousands. nt

[George II]

344. You prefer bringing down the Democrats....

....which could (would!) put the republicans back in office, literally killing HUNDREDS of thousands?

[rhett o rick]

348. You dare ask if I prefer bringing down the Democrats. What kind of question is that? Jeese. nt

[George II]

356. What kind of questions is that? The words of many here.......

....certainly have done nothing to advance the cause of Democrats, just make them look worse in the public eye. Pity you can't recognize that and have to ask your kind of question.

[rhett o rick]

360. If you want to give in to the fucking corporatist, then feel free. But I am going to fight for those

uninsured that are dying while you are kissing the republicans asses. It's past time to fight. I am so sick of the patty-assed Democrats that are so afraid to fight that they let the repukes run all over them. Makes me sick.

You may be a Democrat but I seriously question whether you favor the people over CorpAmerica. Anyone can be a Democrat today, even Specter.

[George II]

363. "Anyone can be a Democrat today"....

...if you consider yourself in that group, grow up and start acting so.

[rhett o rick]

359. No, I prefer taking down the fucking blue fucking dogs. If that is you, good-fucking-bye. nt

[George II]

342. Listen....

....the voters are divided roughly 55% to 45% Democratic vs. republican, give or take a few percent. If those "democrats" continue to criticize the President and Democratic Congressional members, it could siphon off enough voters to swing the Congress and Senate and ultimately the Presidency back to the republicans again!

No one is expecting a party of "sycophants". It's one thing to express one's opinions on issues and disagree in principle with the President, but when it gets to the bottom line, what specifically is accomplished by not supporting the President and Democrats? I've seen words here to the effect that "we worked too hard and too long to win these elections", but by not supporting those who WERE elected you're going to waste all of YOUR work and the work of the other 80+ % of those who campaigned for and voted for Obama, et. al.

[depakid]

345. More rationalizations for failure

The hapless Dems can't even get responsible policy through when they have 2/3's support in the population or their own districts!

Not exactly confidence inspiring, is it? Doesn't really make people all gung ho the next time out- which is what happened in 1994.

[George II]

346. OK, so what do you suggest? Make it easier for the republicans, and get it over with sooner?????

[rhett o rick]

349. Like that's the only choice. nt

[George II]

355. Well...

...you certainly haven't offered anything in this discussion. If that ISN'T the only choice, what is?

[rhett o rick]

358. I think I started the discussion by saying, "If you don't intend to fight for a strong public option

then get the fuck out of the way". We are well past compromising any farther. Single payer is the DECENT thing to do, I capitalized that because it's important for you to understand. Single fucking payer. How hard is that to understand. People are dying from the lack of health care and there are those that want to pussy-foot around. Get out of the fucking way. If we have to we will settle, FOR NOW, for a strong (like medicare) public option, BUT WE WILL SETTLE FOR NOTHING LESS. Your stoopid scare tactics of letting the republican win control are sick. Sick. You want us to settle because you threaten that republcans will win. I say it is waaaaaaaaaaay fucking paast time to draw the line in the sand. And the line is a strong (like medicare) public option.

Either you are for us or you are for the fucking corporations. People are dying, don't you fuckiing get it????

[George II]

362. "Either you are for us or you are for the fucking corporations."?`

Isn't that a takeoff on bush's ONLY defense for all the damage he did to our country? And you did NOT start the discussion, you hijacked it with your anti-Democratic attacks. But at least you confirmed the premise of the OP, that if one isn't 110% behind the radical "democrats" here, one is accused of not being a Democrat at all. You proved that quite well, and you have not offered anything but a rant against those that may not totally agree with you on every issue in every way.

[rhett o rick]

364. There it is. "Radical democrats". Exactly as I thought. You and the OP consider that demanding

decent health care for Americans is "radical". You are so willing to give in to those that allow thousands to die for profits. If that is radical, then I am gladly. Instead of whatever you call yourselves. Centrists, like the Blue Dogs, that are willing to give in to the republicans for money. They are willing to sell their souls for money, for a few pieces of gold. You say my response "hijacked the discussion with anti-Democratic attacks." And I say how can demanding DECENT, THAT'S ALL D E C E N T health care coverage for all Americans, be anti-democratic??

I am for single payer health care for all American. What are you for? You have criticized me but yet to indicate your stance.

And I repeat, you either support the middle class or you don't. Which side are you on?

[George II]

368. .

[leftstreet]

2. What was McCain's healthcare plan? Anyone remember?

I can't at the moment

[DesertFlower]

6. i think it involved a tax credit

for those purchasing insurance. of course, that doesn't help if you don't have a job.

[leftstreet]

42. Was it different than the tax credit Obama's proposing?

Provides new tax credits to help people buy insurance. The President’s plan will provide new tax credits on a sliding scale to individuals and families that will limit how much of their income can be spent on premiums. There will also be greater protection for cost-sharing for out-of-pocket expenses.

Provides small businesses tax credits and affordable options for covering employees. The President’s plan will also provide small businesses with tax credits to offset costs of providing coverage for their workers. Small businesses who for too long have faced higher prices than larger businesses, will now be eligible to enter the exchange so that they have lower costs and more choices for covering their workers.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/health_care/plan/

[sharp_stick]

90. You probably realize this

and just couldn't be bothered to post it all but that little tax credit thingy that Obama was mentioning is what is noted as a bone for the pukes.

It's not going to amount to a hill of beans in the entire health care reform arena even though, as you probably know, it was the central board of the McPalin "health care plan".

When Obama mentions using an idea from the puke playbook such as said tax credit or testing tort reform it makes him look like he's being all magnanimous and bipartisan, thus tearing out the main opposition from the Republicans. Then again you probably knew that too but didn't have the time to post it.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

292. +1

I think you're right -- it is Obama's courtesy to the pukes. Very smart of him.

[RaleighNCDUer]

295. Much the same as his 'we don't need to have a 'public option' was -

so long as we have something that looks, walks and talks like a public option, which the Republicans can call whatever they like (broadly paraphrasing, of course).

Throw them a bone to show off for their knuckleheaded constituents, and get what we need.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

335. yep, let them chew their own feet off...

repulsive scum






(and no offense meant to this bizarre dog, whose people love him very much)

[Igel]

159. Yeah, it was.

http://www.heritage.org/research/healthcare/bg2198.cfm

McCain's seems to have involved taxing the money employees spend on health insurance; then you get a (refundable) tax credit. If you have no job, you get the tax credit and buy your insurance. If you have a job, you pay taxes but still get the tax credit.

Instead of an "insurance exchange" it would have removed interstate barriers to purchasing health insurance. Odds are that at least one state would allow free agents to join together to form risk pools.

It also would have states, with federal support and subsidies, put together their own health insurance for low-income/high-risk people. Sort of like the state car insurance pools, I guess.

I've heard rumors and noise about the constitutionality of Obama's plan, with tortured "tax authority" and "interstate commerce" arguments. This avoids all of that. And, to be honest, apart from having the federal government in charge of it, I think a lot of the differences are on the margin.

Note that for all the "my opponents have never offered a plan and have no plan to offer," I've read repeated proposals involving removing interstate restrictions. Some of the other McCain proposals surface from time to time--they weren't original with him any more than Obama's are original with Obama. Now, when Obama says the repubs have no proposals, the only interpretation I find plausible--assuming that he's informed--is that he's referring to the fact that the repubs in Congress haven't gotten a proposal to the hearing stage or seriously considered, even by the CBO; then again, I've read a few that were proposed in committee but the committee chair decided to let them die. When you're the minority, dem or repub, you're not finally responsible for whether or not your proposals make it out of committee, or even get aired in committee.

[iris27]

161. Removing interstate restrictions would just do to healthcare what

the same move did for banking. Ever wonder why so many banks and credit card companies are located in Delaware? It's because they have the least banking restrictions of any state (thanks largely to Biden).

Companies would all move out of states like Washington, which prohibits companies from pulling the "pre-existing condition" nonsense, and into whatever state most allowed them to hike rates on/drop people once they got sick, set small lifetime payout limits, refuse to cover basic services, etc.

[lark]

312. Real question

I've heard that before about removing the inter-state restrictions. However, if there is a federal law that states no denial for pre-existing, no yearly or lifetime caps on coverage, no dropping someone when they are seriously ill or hurt - wouldn't that trump the state laws and eliminate that BS? I think it would. My concern about this issue is that the coverage offerred could really suck and would the buyer even know that? I've found insurance companies lie (or at least strongly dilute the truth) a lot about what they will or will not cover. I have to deal with them all the time in my job and know for a fact they do not even follow their own WRITTEN criteria, unless the patient gets a lawyer and sues them, then they pay in full to avoid the extra cost. Of course, they do nothing to compensate the patient for the horrific stress their profit motivated games caused them, and they don't do anything extra for the physicians that waited 3 years to get paid.

[sallyseven]

319. McCain like Eisenhauer before him never

paid a cent for their health insurance. It was all public Option. Stop being so stupid refuclicans. They are so lame.

[rhett o rick]

333. Please do not include idiot McCain in the same sentence with Eisenhower. nt

[SemiCharmedQuark]

89. It was healthcare savings accounts.

[George II]

265. It's moot - he didn't win the election.

[polichick]

3. Why can't you state your own opinions about the speech without denigrating others?? nt

[LynneSin]

8. Because I'm tired of being denigrated by others because my opinion differs from theirs

I'm tired of them hijacking DU and trying to make us feel bad because we support Obama and we still support him and we plan on voting for him in 2012. I wouldn't have bothered with this thread if I had read the umpteenth "I AIN'T VOTING FOR OBAMA HE SUCKS AND IS A ONE TERM LOSER" thread all usually started by the same 5-7 people.

DU is my website too!

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LynneSin]

59. And I see alot of people act like assholes when I defend Obama

The coin has 2 sides.

[DevonRex]

121. Hear hear!

Today they're calling us thugs and stalkers. It'd be funny if it weren't so pathetic.

[MineralMan]

75. Please provide examples, with links.

I haven't seen RIGHT-WING THUGGERY (your caps) from anyone in this thread. If you have, please provide examples.

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lukasahero]

140. MineralMan's request was for "from anyone in this thread."

Your link is to another thread.

[CakeGrrl]

145. Conveniently specific, but IMO it doesn't matter where it occurs, just

that it DOES. People don't read or post on one single thread, not with the level of activity here. There's plenty of opportunity to see people insulting other DUers.

[mopinko]

227. that would be against the rules, actually.

it's a callout of a member not in the thread.

[dionysus]

316. that had to have been polichick... i was apparently using "RW THUGGERY" yesterday when i pointed out

something inconvenient...

:rofl:

[mzmolly]

169. Indeed. Most of us are here because we're DEMOCRATS.

Thus the name, "Democratic" Underground.

[AlbertCat]

224. Most of us are here because we're DEMOCRATS.

And as we all know.... Democrats always agree! :eyes:

[mzmolly]

301. No, but they don't advocate against the best interests of

Americans because they happen to disagree on some of the issues.

[ComposMentis]

307. Rule #2

That's why we need rule #2, to shield us from differing opinions!

[Cherchez la Femme]

171. Who, exactly

and with what specifics are you, personally "being denigrated by others"?
I'll take specifics from other pages, np.
But with links, please.

Or are you taking criticism of Obama's as personally against yourself?
Why are you accusing them of trying to make you feel bad instead of allowing them to exercise their freedom of speech and to present their true feelings of disappointment and betrayal, just as you do?

Or are you and yours more equal than others here on DU?

Some of the oldest members I've yet noted have written criticism against Obama's policies and pronouncements, and many, like I, worked countless hours volunteering to get him elected.
Your post is a fine Thank You for our time and effort on Obama's behalf. :sarcasm:

Nor are there only "5 or 7". :eyes:
Like it or not (not) there are many here, both newer along with long-standing members, who are disappointed at the apparent milquetoast administration, along with the ersatz "Hope and Change".
These, funnily enough, (LGBTQ, Progressives, women's rights supporters, et. al.) have experienced their own, actual, denigration, in the truest sense of the word, from Obama's DLC-stuffed cabinet and advisors;
by this administration who feel they can take advantage of their supposedly solid base in hopes of gaining

...wait for it...

Republicans!

Yep, the very same group of crazies who want nothing more than for Obama to be booted out of office and in some cases, murdered! They actuallY have the NERVE to start talking about Impeachment when Obama could
and should
rightfully and righteously put impeachment ON the table, approving proceedings against that last, immoral, unChristian, lying-us-into-war, pResident!
These psychos will never be happy until they 'take back' the White House for personal and corporate enrichment, advocation only for the already wealthy, full support for a comparatively well-paid mercenary, uncontrolled armed cadre whose antisocial sins are never in the public eye unless utterly unavoidable.
They shall not be content until they start up again their pathetic and unconstitutional 'Free Speech Zones', 'signing statements' 'embedded reporters' & the lack of free speech information and of course more & more wars (preemptive, anyone?); replete with no-prob, Bob 'collateral damage', torture, and violating long-standing treaties which, incidentally, protect OUR troops and are, most important of all, Moral and Civilized!

What these loonys (loonies?) want above all (and as Darth Sidious would roar): Unlimited power!

After a few years they will be secure enough in the non-investigation(s) of the former pResident et. al. they will begin another witch hunt, with impeachment the goal, 'a la Bill Clinton. HOW could Pres. Obama then finally start investigating the past pRes? Investigations at that time of Dummy & Deadly (& Rummy & Gozales &, &, &...) would look so bad they'd then be impossible.
After all that time & with a suitable build-up the Repigs will freak out and propagandize enough to start investigations of the president for whatever reason. Any lie at all will do.
-- heck, for them mere accusations are enough. Ain't ratfucking grand? :puke:
And of course, beyond useless editorials (most readers will perceive bias just because they are editorials; i.e. opinions, not "news") the media would have to be 'balanced' and of course give the OTHER side

...but what the fuck is the other side of the truth?!
What a fucking country.

Mark my words ...I'd give that scenario at least a 90% probability.
After all, it certainly worked before! Boyeeee... did it!
At least they'll try, even this so-called 'librul media'-- these 'journalists' who jump like Meth-mixed-with-Cocaine (mainlined, of course) fleas all over any presidential investigation!




In any event, the absolute gall of you to claim that people who disagree with you "hijack DU" is unbelievable
...it's simply incredible. Sorry to put it that way, but it's pure gall.


If you'd rather have DU become a fansite (oft it is darn close, interestingly many fans seemed to have joined just before/during Obama's campaign) instead of comprised of people who observe, think, won't be cowed, actually remember politicians promises & their reneging on them, and above all aren't afraid to type their thoughts & feelings;
and who also happen to remember politicians deeds & their lack of.

I actually saw a post where a fan, perhaps caught up in the moment, stated that Obama would "save us"!
Although president, Obama is NOT the Messiah, AFAIK :eyes:


Wowee.
Talk about an deceiving oneself.
Talk about an alternate reality!


:rant: I've spent way too much time on this pathetic thread already. But serially dudette, in any event you really need to thicken your skin, not take things said about other people
--even about those you support--
personally, as aimed against yourself,
and respect others rights to speak their piece,
IMO anyway.

If this is beyond you and the discourse here makes you so unhappy; start your own fansite where you can delete all
er, "5-7"
of those people posting what you obviously consider as unpatriotic thought crimes.

[inna]

173. +1. thank you. i wish i could rec this post.

:applause:

[Cherchez la Femme]

178. Wow, inna,

Thanks!

I was expecting to get crushed immediately for this post, but it still won't change my opinion of the whole thing :shrug:

Thanks again! It's a relief to get your post with my lowered expectaions :D

[dana_b]

238. me too

brava!!

[Myrina]

209. +10 ... brilliantly stated

:applause:

[Richd506]

213. But this is exactly what LynneSin is talking about

You have the right to your own opinion. But I guess you've forgotten that LynneSin has the right to his own opinion as well. We're sick and fucking tired of being chewed up every time we aren't in lockstep with other democrats. I can't believe you don't see the hypocrisy of it all.

[lib_wit_it]

282. Or the hypocrisy of what you are saying here. See how if you criticize #171, then you can be accused

of exactly what you accuse that poster of? ...infinity.

[Sterling]

217. Great post

It seems a lot of people won't face reality, you did a nice job trying to take off the horse blinders.

[Bette Noir]

218. Me, too.

[DKRC]

229. Well said

:applause:

[rhett o rick]

234. Yes you spent way too much time on this pathetic thread, but thank you for it. nt

[kiva]

237. Very well said! n/t

[Buzz Clik]

266. Are you intersted in a response with links to those who denigrate Obama supporters?

And for no other reason than supporting him?

LynneSin clearly has no intent to respond to you, but I would gladly give you all the links to all the jabs I've received in the past 24 hours simply for saying Obama's speech was solid.

Just let me know...

Why are you accusing them of trying to make you feel bad instead of allowing them to exercise their freedom of speech and to present their true feelings of disappointment and betrayal, just as you do?

I know you were mid-rant when you said this, but Lynne could post 100 such threads and do absolutely NOTHING to prevent Obama detractors from exercising their freedom of speech.

[lib_wit_it]

278. Extremely well put--thanks for speaking my mind! /m

[ChiciB1]

280. Cherchez la Femme, I Stand To Applaud You... Great Post That Pretty Much

covers my thoughts for the most part. Those of us who don't want to be part of a "Ga-Ga Squad" have been called many names of late, not the least of which borders on "traitors!"

The Democratic Party that once reigned, was called "The Party Of The Big Tent," but now it seems we are being told we need to "get on board," even when we see or think or surmise that something other than representation for "we the people" is occurring. Do I WANT to be part of an opposition when I see promises broken, most assuredly NOT. But is going along to get along the only option I have?

I just don't think so! Do I want Obama to succeed? Of course! But I too got out and put in more hours than I count to get him elected, you BETCHA I did! This after I was thinking of "sitting this one out" because I felt we were becoming nothing more than a Cheer Leading Squad! But when it came down to the nitty-gritty I made a CHOICE to do what I could to help him as a our candidate. And believe you me, it was EXTREMELY time consuming, so much so that my husband ranted and yelled about the amount of time I was spending away from home! Every single Friday, I stood on a street corner, with very few people with me, holding up signs for him. I live in a Very Ruby Red county, and those of us there got many epithets hurled at us! Many gestures and even things thrown at us, still we stood our ground.

I went to THREE rallies here in Florida, I was part of the "inside" circle that formed at least one rally, and I listened to speech after speech after speech! I heard HOPE & CHANGE over and over again.

I made HUGH signs to hold up, one I painted myself on wood that I hung from the roof of my house... so it wouldn't get stolen! I gathered yard signs for my neighbors and paid for them myself, and got more when they got yanked! I WAS THE ONE who went to their yards and collected them each night to try to make sure they weren't stolen again! I DID A LOT!! And he wasn't even my first OR second choice!!

So now, when many promises have been broken, things I thought he stood for have been thrown by the wayside, I'm supposed to SHUT-UP and SIT DOWN because I DARE to speak of my frustrations, I'm afraid my conscience won't let be do so!

I've been many, many years in the trenches, and I KNOW what it means to lose over and over again. I've learned HOW to lose gracefully, but I can't just jump on a bandwagon when I see things going awry! Losing gracefully to the other side is one thing, but losing to MY SIDE isn't something that sits well with me!

I want THAT HOPE & CHANGE that was promised, at least more than I'm seeing right now! And to those of you who disagree, well that's your prerogative, but I have mine too!!

JMHO!!

[Vincardog]

287. What Cherchez la Femme said. Damn right

[ComposMentis]

308. +1

[Boku-Wa]

198. Gee, who's forcing you to read all those 'nasty' comments about Obama?

I didn't know there was a restriction on speech on this site (other than the occasional political bias shown by the moderators!)

Do you think you're the only one on this site who worked for Obama? I worked for him as well, so you have NO RIGHT to expect me to tow the party line.

I think you need to vent your anger at the DINOs who he brought into the administration and the DINOs in the Senate and House who are obstructing his domestic agenda.

We can talk about his Bush-lite foreign policy another time.

[lamp_shade]

15. ooooooooo

You're still here. Why?

[lamp_shade]

23. Crazy, isn't it? And I fail to understand why they keep posting here other than

to try and stir up hate and discontent.

[polichick]

33. LOL - you reply to yourself now?!

[lamp_shade]

47. A mistake but I do it all the time.

[JTFrog]

190. At least he got an honest answer. n/t

[rhett o rick]

247. I do that sometimes. I think I am on lots of ignores. nt

[cui bono]

200. Oh geez. You've totally missed the plot.

If you can't handle other points of view then why do you keep posting here?

[AlbertCat]

226. If you can't handle other points of view then why do you keep posting here?

I'm kinda annoyed that they remove posts and poster's names for any reason at all (except spam). Let us see what the trolls have to say. Maybe a "troll flag" on those kind of posts so they can be skipped if one is in a hurry or just doesn't want to deal at the time, but censoring them seems like totalitarianism .... and babysitting.

[LiberalLovinLug]

314. TOTALLY agree

The moderation seems a little Stalinesk in here a lot of times.

I would love to see what was so outrageous that it required total censorship.

What is the reason for it? I guess its to nip a flame war in the bud. But there should be some kind of compromise.

Maybe block the content, but have a link to another page where you can read it. And deflect the flame war, if it happens, onto that separate page. Its entertaining! and its great to see passion about politics, however misguided.

[Boku-Wa]

202. There have always been competing tendencies in the Dem Party. If you want a homogeneous Party

where everyone marches in exact formation, you may want to check out the GOP?

Otherwise recognize that many Democrats have strong labor and social democratic (i.e., SOCIALIST) beliefs that inform our positions on the economy, social justice, and international affairs.

Our views do get under the skin of the economic royalists representing Wall Street and corporate America, but we're here to stay because it's UNFORTUNATELY the only way to play in this (barely) two-party system of ours.

[Ignis]

274. Hard to keep track of all those accounts?

;)

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MineralMan]

70. Now, that's just a personal attack.

Please don't do that.

[polichick]

77. I'm referring to behavior - but many here do launch personal attacks...

...against posters who dare to question the president.

[MineralMan]

87. So you respond in kind? Sorry...that's not discussion.

Calling people right wing thugs because they support the President is personal attack of the first order. Who would you have them support in order not to be called names by you? You escalate the vitriol while condemning it. I consider that to be disgusting and heinous behavior.

Nota Bene: You may attack me personally at any time. I shall wear the names like so many badges of honor, and will attach the name-caller's handle to each.

[GreenArrow]

95. she didn't call anyone a right wing thug

she said they were *acting* like right wing thugs. There is a difference.

[MineralMan]

100. Piffle. That's a rhetorical tool that's often used,

but the intent is still the same insulting name-calling. Don't play semantic games with me, and I will not call you on them.

[GreenArrow]

126. Piffle schmiffle.

One is labeling: "You are a right wing thug". This implies a fixed, unchangeable condition.

The other is comparative: "You are acting like a right wing thug." This implies the person can change his or her behaviour.

If you're insulted, maybe it's because there is some truth to the comparison.

[JTFrog]

191. Looks like you lost.

Message deleted.

Why do people argue in favor of the stupid?

[dionysus]

337. teh bitterness makes ppl say whacky things?

:shrug:

[polichick]

99. I'm not responding in kind - but I will call people out on their behavior. nt

[sharp_stick]

93. And you continue to invite them

by pre launching personal attacks. I'm starting to think you just like the attention.

[polichick]

104. Look, I've had it with the thuggish behavior of some on this site...

...and I'm going to call it out whenever I see it ~ if you don't like it, tough.

[MineralMan]

112. No doubt you will. Tread carefully, though, upon the narrow

bridge. There is peril on either side, should you fall.

[ChiciB1]

285. OH, Sage That You Are "MineralMan" Do Tell Of These Perils You Speak!

I really need to know because I'm walking on that very same bridge! Ah yes, I got it... it's all those "trolls" that will come get us and tear us to shreds and throw our bones to the wind!!

Hey, I already wonder if my phone is tapped, and my PC has has been hacked into... The Patriot Act fixed that one for me, so I suppose "more peril" is just another part of OUR DEMOCRACY!!

[JTFrog]

192. And just like the boy who cried wolf....... n/t

[MineralMan]

111. You are playing semantic games. Every behavior has

a behaver doing it. You are dodging the rules with semantics. Surely you realize just how transparent that maneuver is, right?

I don't play semantic games. I call behavior that pretends to hide personal attacks behind semantic shields just what it is.

That was a personal attack. You'll probably get away with it, due to your thin veil of semantics. More's the pity.

[polichick]

114. You sound like Sarah Palin, who says Obama is being uncivil by calling out her lies. nt

[MineralMan]

118. Ooooh....you have now cut me to the quick.

I must hasten to find some spider's webs and sphagnum moss to staunch the bleeding, lest I perish.

Balderdash, my fellow DUer...sheer balderdash!

[dionysus]

336. ROFL

:spray:

[JTFrog]

193. And you sound like Joe Wilson. n/t

[MineralMan]

Uff da! Seems to me she did state her opinion, which appeared

to be about the negativity around here against President Obama. Is this not a discussion forum?

You may state your opinion, as you choose. Allow others to do the same, please.

[polichick]

52. Unfortunately, anyone who has legitimate questions about WH policy here...

...gets heckled and trashed ~ it's no better than the behavior of teabaggers.

[MineralMan]

67. Nonsense. People question WH policy all the time here.

I have done it. The ones being addressed are the knee-jerk lameoids who constantly whine that Obama's not this and Obama's not doing that. Eight months into his first term, and some morons here are suggesting that we primary President Obama.

Screw that, and the horse it rode in on.

Politics is, and always has been, the art of the possible. The POTUS cannot rule by dictate. In order for him to do anything, he must get Congress to enact what he wants. That's the possible part.

I'd love nothing better than to have a completely nationalized health care system. That is impossible. It will not happen in this representative republic. So, we MUST work towards what is possible. President Obama is doing that.

If you insist on the impossible, you are irrelevant, politically. You can hope for it, ask for it, but you cannot demand that an elected official give it to you. He cannot do that. It is impossible. He can only work to get the best compromise possible.

Insisting that he can do otherwise is pig-ignorant.

[polichick]

73. Pay closer attention. nt

[MineralMan]

79. Oh, I'm paying very close attention.

I will continue to do so. I'm noting whomever is asking for the impossible, then trashing Obama when he can't provide that. I have lots of notes now.

[JuniperLea]

97. You were having such an interesting argument with "ignored"

I had to go un-ignore! :rofl:

You go, MineralMan!

[MineralMan]

105. I suspect that some would like me to 'go,'

certainly. I'm frequently ignored, but never ignore.

Thank you kindly...

[JuniperLea]

109. I use it sparingly...

Besides, if I put "them all" on ignore, I wouldn't have the pleasure of hiding their threads:) And alerting on their assholery.

Live and learn from fools and from sages, I always say.

[MineralMan]

115. A fine philosophy, that...

[lib_wit_it]

318. Put Obama's name on your list, Mr. McCarthy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjgjE1a32rE&NR=1

[goclark]

273. Yes

:patriot:

[Boku-Wa]

276. If you insist on CAVING IN TO THE CORPORATE #%$@, you are irrelevant, politically.

And you need a major lesson in civility. In this one post you call people critical of Obama 'lameoids', 'morons' and 'pig-ignorant'. Hey, why are you holding back? Come on, tell us what you really think!

Dictate policy? Impossible proposals? Just more of the same lame straw man arguments.

I guess you also dismiss our criticism of how Obama handed the development of the bill to the Congressional cesspool where lobbyists rule the roost, while he had no problem negotiating a deal with Big Pharm!

The Pollyanna's on this site never cease to amaze me with their "My President Right or Wrong" bullshit.

Well, you may "know" what was possible from day one, but I'm certain that the insurance and pharm lobbyists are ecstatic that they stayed in the game for the long haul, because they are the ones that will be the beneficiaries of this 'reform'.

[lib_wit_it]

289. "That is impossible." And that is absurd on its face. Regardless, to fight for more than one

imagines is possible is to recognize and finesse the realities of negotiation.

[AlbertCat]

232. Is this not a discussion forum?

Yea. Verily so.

If everyone agreed and only those who agree were allowed on here....well.... ever listen to Rush Limbaugh's show? What a colossal bore it is! This fretting over differences of opinion... waddaya want? An invitation only, screened town hall meeting? Those are useless.

[CakeGrrl]

137. This OP was much less of a "denigration", IMO, than this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8644195

Why can't someone who is not very supportive of Obama express that without condescension and name-calling of other DUers? It goes in multiple directions.

[treestar]

152. this goes both ways

kool aid drinker no longer refers to Republicans, now it refers to people who support Obama.

But this is a Democratic site, and very tolerant, given the large number of posts that are unsupportive of Democrats.

[cui bono]

325. I hope you are not equating being critical with being unsupportive. n/t

[AlbertCat]

235. Why can't someone who is not very supportive of Obama express that without condescension and name-ca

Why can't someone who is not very supportive of Obama express that without condescension and name-calling

************



Uh.... because we're human?

[dionysus]

317. like you do when you go around calling people RW THUGS!1!!1!!! ?

:rofl:

[Oregone]

4. "There are just some folks who won't be happy no matter what the democrats say."

And there are some folks who have very legitimate concerns about two ongoing wars, a private health care system that will remain that way, and a lackluster economy (despite the green chutes).

[tridim]

10. "A private health care system that will remain that way" is a flat-out lie

That's why Lynne posted what she did.

[leftstreet]

14. So the insurance we'll be required to purchase will be non profit?

wait...what?

[tridim]

43. Yes, if you can't afford private insurance it will be the non-profit PO.

[inna]

179. you're factually wrong.

[shellgame26]

194. huh?

NO they won't be able to cherry pick the healthiest people or drop people anymore because of pre-existing conditions. Did you miss that part?

It is not single-payer but it IS A STEP in the right direction.

Rome wasn't built in a day

[ChiciB1]

294. It Would Have Been Better Had You Used Something Better Than ROME!

Seems it got quite a COME-UP-PENCE in the end!!

[Oregone]

17. A public option may cover 5% publicly, but the system will remain mostly private for the rest

[ProSense]

32. Wow, in one place you're jumping for joy about more access to private insurance and

here you're criticizing a public option. It's clear that you would prefer a private system with more choice than real reform.

[Oregone]

46. Lies and the liar who spouts em

I'm jumping for joy over the Wyden amendment that would allow universal access to the "public option", if it exists. This is a game changer

[tridim]

40. Then you should have said "mostly".

[Oregone]

50. True. Hell, it currently has Medicare and VA

So Im talking about those not on them anyway. I assumed you'd know what I meant

[tridim]

60. We're talking about the terms of reform, not the status quo.

I still don't know what you're talking about because reform will change the way insurance companies currently maximize profits and minimize coverage. The status-quo will be AGAINST THE LAW.

[Oregone]

64. Its still private, for profit.

And by that model, a whole lot of people sitting at home will be making money off sick people by not curing cancer and not keeping them healthy.


Its not exactly an efficient model of health care. And its difficult to trust anything to provide life saving insurance when the bottom-line is the main motivator, despite laws.

[tridim]

66. Then they will be forced out of business.

You simply don't get it.

[Oregone]

68. You seem so hopeful

Thats good, I guess.

Im a realist. Ive spent time in this world. We will see.

[tridim]

84. 39 years on this Earth and I've never been as hopeful as I have been the past 6 months.

Yes, it is good, and yes I'm a realist.

You're a pessimist. No problem with that, but using your pessimism and twisted "facts" to attempt to bring everyone else down serves no useful purpose on this forum.

[Oregone]

102. Im just calling it like I see it.

This entire reform started out quite shy of benevolence (especially shutting down the debate for Medicare for All). Extrapolating from that, and where do you get?

I can be hopeful until the sun goes down, but simply stated, those in control have no interest in seeing a solution that benefits the people more than the insurance industry.

This reform model still has the same problems it had when Richard Nixon introduced it to stifle the calls for a national health insurance system. The pot has been sweetened, if only a little, with a firewalled, self-sustaining public option, but the entire Nixionian concept remains: "subsidized and mandated private insurance". And I fully agree with the Democrats, including Ted Kennedy, of yesteryear who stood out and protected the nation from it.

Now, if that "public option" actually becomes a real option for all Americans, then Id change my tune.

[leftstreet]

71. How long will it take to force them out of business?

Wow, that's quite the chess move

:eyes:

[tridim]

85. If you still don't think Obama is playing chess, you're an idiot.

No offense.

[leftstreet]

88. In chess, pawns are sacrificed to protect the royals

No offense taken, I'm no idiot

[tridim]

91. "Chess" in politics is a metaphor for thinking dozens of moves ahead.

It has nothing to do with pawns, knights and rooks.

[leftstreet]

98. Right. So how far "ahead" will the insurance industry collapse?

Just wondering how long this game will go on

[tridim]

108. If they don't compete, they will collapse.

That's been the plan since day one.

[leftstreet]

113. If we're forced to buy their product, this 'collapse' could take some time

oh well

[tridim]

125. We're required to buy insurance from the public exchange.

Which is a combination of private and public options. The PO will be available to anyone who can not afford private insurance, and subsidized PO insurance will be available to people who can't afford the standard PO.

This is all straight from the President's speech last night.

If the private insurers want a piece of the pie, they must compete with the other options. If they don't, they die a natural death due to lack of customers.

[Oregone]

128. WTF bill are you reading? Most individuals wont have access to the exchange!

Its called a firewall (at least in HR 3200). You will be forced to buy it, but probably won't have exchange access. Thats why the CBO only predicts 10-12 million will be in the "public option" by 2019 (which is offered through the "exchange"). People with private, employer provided coverage will not have an "option" of the "public option" (profitable people), unless the employers choose, after some amount of time, to do so (and they meet the qualifications).

(1) INDIVIDUAL DESCRIBED- Subject to the succeeding provisions of this subsection, an individual described in this paragraph is an individual who-

(A) is not enrolled in coverage described in subparagraphs (C) through (F) of paragraph (2);

(B) is not enrolled in coverage as a full-time employee (or as a dependent of such an employee) under a group health plan if the coverage and an employer contribution under the plan meet the requirements of section 312.

You are shit out of luck if your employer picks a crappy private plan. If you are unemployed or not covered, you just might get a chance to get public, if it exists

Its nuts the way people want to defend this stuff and don't know anything about it.

[stevietheman]

311. So they can change jobs. n/t

n/t

[lib_wit_it]

320. Yeah, 'cuz changing jobs is such a cinch.

[Odin2005]

351. DING, DING, DING!!!

Every time it looked like Obama wasn't gonna deliver his detractors started mocking him by saying "oh, that must be that 10-dimensional chess again! :sarcasm: ", and in the end Obama always did deliver, to the shock of all the idiot pundits in the MSM and the pundit wannabes here on DU.

[Oregone]

117. Why compete?

The "public option" is only available to those who aren't currently covered (employer is shitty and doesn't offer it, they can't afford it, pre-existing condition).

Its a small segment of expensive patients who have little means to afford insurance at competitive rates.

They could lower their rates for everyone, in order to compete for these people (averaging about 25K people a company), or they can say screw it, and retain the same market share at current rates.

[AlbertCat]

244. If they don't compete, they will collapse.

Ahhhhh.... the Invisible Hand again.

That may "work" for certain commodities, but your health is not a commodity. You cannot refuse health care and what good is shopping around if things are all about the same? Health Care is a right, not a commodity. Why should some middle man make a profit off of something when another system has been proven to work pretty well without it in other countries. Insurance companies are just paper pushers. Health Care SHOULD be expensive because it requires state-of-the-art technologies and well educated specialists to implement. There is no reason to keep Health Insurance, other than keeping middle men who make a profit. Why not impose a tax, and give everyone equal access. I wonder if a tax on everyone would take more money outta people's pockets than their premiums do now. I dunno. But the only reason to keep it mind numbingly complicated is to create a niche for paper pushers.

IMHO, of course.

Of course we could all get a persoal tax break and pay for Single Payer.... hell we could pay for the proposed plan!.... if we'd make Exxon and their ilk pay their fair share of taxes, and stop spending money on obsolete defense systems. Of course I want Churches to pay taxes too. Imagine how the deficit would shrink!

[Oregone]

110. 213 years

Obama is a 3-D Chess Master. He knows what you are thinking before you are born. As soon as John McCain the 8th is impeached from office for lying about sexual activity with a mule, the Bull Moose Party will sweep into power with 83 Senate members to extend Weiner-Care to everyone.

[leftstreet]

116. ...

:rofl:

[Oregone]

92. If you insist to keep using that analogy, you're an idiot.

[tridim]

96. I'm done with you, you're worthless.

My first ignore! Chow.

[Oregone]

107. Wow. Quite a chess move.

King's Rook to Douchebag's Ignore

[lib_wit_it]

323. You putting him on ignore made me put him on my Buddy List. That and comment #110!

:rofl:

[rhett o rick]

367. We want the greedy fat-cat bastards to go out of business. That's the whole point.

We dont need them. They are killing us literally.

[MineralMan]

41. Do not forget Medicare and Medicaid when you make

your calculations, please.

[Oregone]

72. Yes, quick oversight

Hell, so many are publicly covered and the system hasn't collapsed. Why mess around with any middle-men for that matter? :)

[rhett o rick]

221. So you are satisfied with a bill that hasnt even been passed? nt

[LynneSin]

11. Never said we didn't have concerns

Just not ready to toss the baby out with the bathwater either.

[Oregone]

22. Gotcha

I just wanted to point out there are some that have real concerns on huge issues, and they don't need to be bundled up with the discontent and diminished

These aren't small issues people are riled up about (and people are desperate about some). Im not pissed about the lack of ponies. While I acknowledge some fit the bill, not all do.

[LynneSin]

56. Honestly, I think I can get more done working the phones and getting support for what I think....

is the right thing to do then starting to campaign for a replacement democrat in the 2012 primary.

[SammyWinstonJack]

13. +1 nt

[George II]

271. Points addressed (somewhat) :

One war is truly winding down (we withdrew more troops this week)

The other war cannot be abandoned yet, but some day will be - Democrats didn't start it

Private healthcare will remain the way it is, but alternate plans will result from proposed legislation. Do you want private healthcare companies to be outlawed?

"Lackluster" economy is a bit overstated - it is coming back faster than anyone expected, and like the second point, it was not destroyed by Democrats but Democrats are doing a good job of fixing it

[Rabrrrrrr]

5. Well said. Lots of "Waah waah, he's not the Ubermensch with unlimited perfect power!" crybabies here

Given the shithole he was handed, and the state of social discourse and political mechinations, I think he's done pretty damn well.

Is he perfect? No.

But then, like you, I am mature enough to know that no matter who we elect to the presidency, we should expect neither perfection, one hundred percent agreement with what they do, nor any kind of "magic".

[Cleita]

7. Obama was much more preferable to the alternative, McCain/Palin.

I'll leave it at that.

[pundaint]

55. I'll extend it a little

I try to find some actual change. The Wars continue on course with an additional escalation request. Highly trained gay military, who want to serve are still kicked our while people who signed up as ready reserve continue to have their lives uprooted, The contracts with the mercenary force, are being renewed and extended despite manifest negligence causing US deaths, and committing war crimes for amusement. We get change in medical care maybe, but the change is more money in the hands of the corporations causing the problem. The Bush economic team continues to reward the crafty thieves who financing our country to death.

Hey but the letter after the President and the Majority party's names is "D."

Man, I do feel better now

[katandmoon]

65. +1

[SammyWinstonJack]

74. +2

[TxRider]

122. +3

[Cleita]

148. So what do you suggest we can do?

I personally have a worn out keyboard from the number of emails and snail mails to every politician involved in those issues for months now and I know the majority of activists are where I'm at. I feel that we are no longer the government for the people and by the people if we can be ignored so easily. I still maintain that we are far better off than we would be under McCain/Palin. By now we would probably be at war with North Korea and Iran and Medicare and Social Security would be on the way to being privatized if that were the case.

[pundaint]

175. Public Action and Fear

Part of the problem is that our natural allies have been cleverly turned against us. They are so wound up with emotion that the thinking part of their brains are shut off. They think we have been taken over. We have, but not by Democrats but by corporations. It is time for class warfare, because we've already lost the battle of for profit politics.

So I suggest organizing protests against corporations involved in the vast theft of our legislators. There's plenty of documented contribution and lobbying expenses to prove our case. There's vote changes per dollar, and all sorts of damning evidence there for the taking. But we don't go after the corrupt politicians we attack those who corrupted them. It takes Party out of the battle unless the repugs want to defend bribery.

Take a hair on fire batshit crazy approach and connect with those emotions that have been used to separate us. If we can get the Fox viewers to see our common enemy, we may be able to clarify the true source of their pain for them. The only thing we've got left to leverage is the vote at least until the Supreme Court goes back to that property owning concept prior to the constitution.

[olegramps]

186. Let me ask you a couple of questions.

What would you do in regard to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars? Just pull out and perhaps see the entire region deteriorate into a bloody religious war? I regret that we ever were in there and I spoke out aginst our invading Iraq. I certainly didn't oppose the action taken aginst the Taliban in Afghanistan. However, I believe that the situation has changed. It far more of a tribal thing than before. I won't belabor this point since it has been covered before. I would be more receptive to leaving Afghanistan than Iraq at this time. Hopefully the governments of both countries will actually become functional and we can withdraw. But, I just can't see it happening within the next year or two. Unfortunately, as Powell said you break it; you own it. Well, this is what we inherited from those damn PNAC neo-cons, like it or not. I would be glad to hear what you would propose.

[pundaint]

288. There are many hidden things in war

And I don't know all the entanglements. Powell said a lot of stuff including we have proof that warrants war, and the told the world this.

But the World is not America, we don't rule there, in fact considering where we rank domestically with other developed nations it is the height of arrogance that we presume to advise. Rejection of America's way of life is one of many rational choices a nation might make.

Nobody has ever been successful in Afghanistan, we are clearly supporting corrupt people, and causing significant civilian damage and if I have to choose between the opinions of those who have been saying victory is near in Iraq, and History, I'll take history, precipitously withdraw, and make a symbolic contribution to an appropriate U.N. agency to support alternative to poppy farming and build some hospitals. If they deserved any punishment for whatever complicity they had in 9/11, it has certainly been fully inflicted.

If you want to further prosecute complicit individuals you may want to look at Saudi Arabia.

There is nothing more to do in Iraq. They have the capability to continue as one country or not, and it is their willingness to accept a national structure or to re-sort themselves into the tribes that they once were that is in question. It is not for us to say and it wasn't for the Brits when they slapped the country together in the first place. And they want us to go, except for very few who will miss their gravy train

Try to see it from the World's point of view.

We demonstrate great and unwarranted conceit to imagine that we have special right to pressure others about their form of government. We occupy more countries than England at the peak of it's empire. Our stupid superiority complex has lulled us into complacency, while many countries have caught up and in some ways have passed us in preparing for the challenges of the future. We have become the worlds bully, and the world is growing up - a bully doesn't last long in a grown up world.

Big military, like Big Oil, Big Finance, Big Government, Big Media, they've all lost sight of the Spirit of America. Life isn't a war. War is the shittiest of all times to live a life. Yet we have devolved into a society that is one War after another. War on this War on that, and if you don't support War you're not really American. It is bullshit.

Do you want to be Sparta or Athens? For me while there was something to admire about Sparta, there was nothing there I find worthy of aspiration.

[Odin2005]

352. You lost me when you said promoting human rights and democracy is a "unwarranted conceit".

Funny you mention Athens, which intervened in places militarily to promote democracy and beat back Sparta-backed oligarchies.

[countingbluecars]

9. Good post.

K&R

[rhett o rick]

222. Yes, keep you expectations low and you will never be disappointed. nt

[countingbluecars]

254. My expectations are high

but reality based.

[rhett o rick]

256. So you are willing to give up on the fight for a public option as the OP suggests?

Reality isnt what it's cracked up to be.

[countingbluecars]

267. Where does the OP suggest that?

"I feel that he can get the public option passed but he spelled out exactly what the public option was and insured us that it was not 'government taking over your healthcare'. My 2 biggest concerns are always the pre-existing conditions and high costs of coverage - to be honest they rank way higher than the public option (although PO is still very important)."


I do understand that what a reader brings to the written word influences what they comprehend. I bring a sense of optimism and belief that Obama wants a public option. I saw that in the OP as well.

[rhett o rick]

291. This OP was written to tell us to stop whining. The only thing anyone is "whining" about

is the demand for a public option. She suggest that we be happy with a glass partially full. It appears to me that she is willing to settle for less than the public option.

I simply ask if you were also.

[lapfog_1]

It was a GREAT speech.

but it's a very very bad plan.

Mandated insurance with no public option is going to be a HUGE tax increase on the middle class and the near poor. The insurance industry is LOVING this (though they will scream bloody murder the whole time).

I love Obama. I worked for him, donated to his campaign, and voted for him. But this is a bad plan.

As for this being further with healthcare than any other President...

a) he hasn't done anything yet.
b) Medicare, Johnson.

[LynneSin]

25. I didn't say it was perfect plan, but I felt positive that we were going the right direction

and I stand corrected about medicare. I knew that but had a brain fart.

I would love to know what's happening in the White House now - Obama has called in the fence-sitters to the white house so it should be good to see what comes of it. I was suprised that Carper, my DLC Senator, came out in support of the Public Option. So I think there is hope.

[lapfog_1]

62. But is it a "public option" if you can't "opt" for it?

His estimate that only 5% of Americans will use the public option ISN'T because they would choose to stick with Blue Cross Blue Shield or Wellpoint, it's because IF you already HAVE that, you are stuck with it. And at the current premiums that they charge you and the at a "out of pocket" that won't BANKRUPT you. That's what *I* heard him say. Now "bankrupt" in an interesting term. What would someone consider "bankrupting" charges to cover medicine or procedures? $1K a year, $10K a year, $30K a year?.

The devil is in the details.

Details that we really haven't seen yet.

And the exchange won't be up and running until AFTER the next Presidential election.

(Does anyone here care to ask "Why?" Is that so hard to do that it will take years? Really???)

[lib_wit_it]

261. I couldn't agree with you more completely! WTF!

[lib_wit_it]

340. Everyone needs to see this video:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=369101&mesg_id=369101

[Sukie]

34. You saying it is a bad plan does not make it a bad plan.

Unless you have a crystal ball or are a psychic, you can't possibly be sure of that. So, since it is your opinion that it is a bad plan, it is my opinion that it is the best plan that our country could possibly get at this time and from this congress and senate. The president realizes this and is doing more than anyone else could or would have accomplished, given the very same circumstances.

K&R and agree with the original post.

[lapfog_1]

142. Please, defend the plan outlined last night by President Obama.

Tell me how 5% of the populace in a public option is a good idea. Or mandated purchase of private insurance.

Remember now, THIS is the starting point for "serious negoiations". Not health care reform, but heath insurance reform, not socialist medicine for all (VA for everyone), not Single Payer (Medicare for all), not Public Option for anyone that wants it (Medicare Part E, as described by Thom Hartmann). But what Obama outlined last night.

That's now the starting point for whatever bill comes out.

And, yeah, it's a bad plan. I don't need a crystal ball to say it. And, yeah, I'm sure of it.

[noiretextatique]

155. with majorities in both the house and senate

if this is the best democrats can do, i may have to vote green henceforth. but...i am going to withhold final judgement for now.

[omega minimo]

12. If only we could all agree we need to get private profit predators OUT of our government.

[leftstreet]

18. If only we could get our elected Democrats to agree with that

It's not like they don't have the majority

[liberal N proud]

16. Thanks for that Lynne

[denbot]

19. Thank you LynneSin

At least the greens/Naderites are more subdued then in the "olden-days".

[MineralMan]

48. And I will remind the naderites that we would not have had

GWB as President at all without Ralph Nader's candidacy. Thanks a bunch....

In Florida alone, the race balanced on Nader's bony back.

[crim son]

20. I believe some people confuse the notion of "critical thinking" with

"criticizing" and believe they display wisdom when they engage in the latter activity. Obama's speech rocked and was exactly what his healthcare reform needed at this juncture. I see him trying very hard to maintain his personal integrity and the party's integrity while trying to create something like miraculous change in the country. Perhaps he balks at the heavy-handed techniques used by the repugs the last eight years - I call it 'abuse of power' - and wants to salvage what he can of bipartisanship NOT because he's weak but because he is thinking of the country and its needs rather than just his needs or Dem's needs.

Badly worded, but in brief, I agree with you LynnSin.

[lib_wit_it]

328. He has already made it clear what he thinks the country needs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjgjE1a32rE&NR=1

So, exactly who is he thinking of now? This is not a rhetorical question.

[Libby2]

21. Amen!! Thank you!

[rubberducky]

24. Agree 100%. I cannot even begin to tell you how many times I said, "I love this man".

If ,we as dems can get ANYTHING done it will be with this wonderful man. While I don`t agree all the time with him, I still feel that his message is the best I`ve heard in many, many years. We worked our butts off to finally get someone SMART in the white house. I trust this man to do the BEST that he can.

[Maru Kitteh]

26. Kicked and EXTREMELY recommended.

[MineralMan]

27. BRAVA!

:fistbump: :yourock: :applause:

[Hekate]

29. KnR for LynneSin's post.The "pre-existing conditions" provision alone will make a HUGE difference...

... to the peace of mind of millions and millions of people already. Immediately, if I heard the man correctly.

Is this the sole issue? Of course not. It is, however, a giant step forward.

Now CONGRESS must do its job.

Hekate

[Hissyspit]

158. My question, though, is:

Is that actually enforceable? What new tactics are insurance companies going to use to get around that?

Is this not somehow very important to ask questions about? How is that whining?

[rhett o rick]

245. To get the "preconditions" provision we will have to have mandatory insurance. W/o a PO that means

people will be forced to buy insurance from a private insurance company. The private insurance companies will love that. Please continue to push for a strong public option.

[gratuitous]

You're a bad Democrat, you sellout, and you don't love your country!

It's right there at beginning of the fourth paragraph, for those sharp enough to see it: "I never voted for Obama." This. Is. Hugh!!11!!!Eleven!1 Arrest my case. Also. Such as. In what respect?

[Barack_America]

30. Well, Lynne, let's be honest. There hasn't been much over the past 8 years to be happy about.

But I agree that when we're presented with a bit of good, we should celebrate it.

The speech last night was a good moment. The plan isn't perfect, by a long shot, but it's the furthest we've come in a long, long time.

[livetohike]

31. Thank you LynneSin

I didn't think Obama would be able to get as much done as quickly as he has.....I voted for him because he had good ideas for the future. Eight months in office and all that he has accomplished is amazing to me.

[get the red out]

35. Thank you

I needed to read that. I agree completely.

[Jim__]

36. With close to 150,000 registered users on DU, some people will dissent from almost any thing ...

... that happens. It's just human nature, I think, that people tend to speak more when they disagree than when they agree. I don't think there's any particular problem with the people on DU. Just a lot of people, and so, lots of opinions.

[Joe Fields]

37. I'll get behind your enthusiasm for the President's plan!!!

[JCMach1]

38. Lynne, Dems have always tended towards 'white knight syndrome'

So, your message is right on...

He is busy doing the job of a president, not a freakin' archetype...

And yes, that does mean (unfortunately) he is going to piss some of us off occasionally...

But, I am comfortable with that as long as he is bailing out the deep shit Bush got us into...

:hi:

[LynneSin]

44. Trust me, I've been pissed off

But it's alot better than being pissed off 24x7 for 8 straight years. Under Obama I get a few stretches of time where I'm very pleased with what is happening.

I think half of my mentality comes from having Rick Santorum as my Senator for 8 years. After having that lunatic represent me, I moved to Delaware where I had 2 democrats but one was a DLCer (Carper). Carper pisses me off ALOT, but I remind myself that I had it alot worse back in PA under Santorum.

BTW I've called Carper a gadzillion times, so I've done my job. I called Kauffman once - he's pretty much going to vote the way Biden tells him to vote.

[JCMach1]

80. My last two governors when I lived in the states were George W. and then JEBtm

I feel where you are coming from.

I sometimes feel the odd man out about Obama because I never did have the falling in love with your candidate moment... However, that also sometimes moderates my expectations. I voted for him because he was the only person who had the chance to get us out of the 8 year nightmare of W. I just want to be our president and keep the ball moving forward in the right direction. He's doing that. Honestly, if the package looks much as he discussed with healthcare the insurers will be out of business in a few years anyway. We will have one public option.

So yeah, bring it on... he's getting us there damn it!

[branders seine]

39. What kind of car?

[Laelth]

45. Delete.

Self-delete. This post was, in reality, very hypocritical. Sorry.

:dem:

-Laelth

[BlooInBloo]

49. People here know how to do one and only one thing: protest.

[WilliamPitt]

58. ...to their keyboards.

What do we want?

Typing!

When do we want it?

Now!

Lather rinse repeat.

[BlooInBloo]

61. lulz.

[suzie]

189. +1

[Buzz Clik]

262. +1

[flyarm]

51. Yes, Obama Campaigned on a Public Option

and that is not what one of Obama's top campaigners said this morning..or what is really being done ..i am sick of anyone saying one thing and meaning the other..we just had 8 fucking years of that shit!

Sen. Claire McCaskill: I'm Happy We're 'Handcuffing The Public Option'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9RV_r-k9lU&feature=channel_page
she says a public option could morph into a comprehensive government plan

that a moderate like her can not support ...and that Obama handcuffed the public option in his speech.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

then we find out there is more and more propaganda..

Yes, Obama Campaigned on a Public Option
By: Jane Hamsher Thursday September 10, 2009 11:55 am
I'm not sure exactly what Chuck Todd is trying to prove here:

he speech also will be a failure if progressives -- Obama’s second audience tonight -- are still obsessing over the public option a week from now. We've said this before and we'll say it again: Obama never made the public option the focus of his health-care ideas, in the primaries or in general election. In fact, he never uttered the words "public option" or "public plan" in his big campaign speeches on health care. But there is no doubt that the public option has fired up the left, and how he sells them near-universal coverage and lower costs -- even if it means no public plan -- could very well be the trickiest part of tonight's speech.

From the Obama '08 campaign document, "Barack Obama's Plan for a Healthy America" (PDF):

The Obama plan both builds upon and improves our current insurance system, upon which most Americans continue to rely, and leaves Medicare intact for older and disabled Americans. The Obama plan also addresses the large gaps in coverage that leave 45 million Americans uninsured. Specifically, the Obama plan will: (1) establish a new public insurance program available to Americans who neither qualify for Medicaid or SCHIP nor have access to insurance through their employers, as well as to small businesses that want to offer insurance to their employees; (2) make available the National Health Insurance Exchange to help Americans and businesses that want to purchase private health insurance directly; (3) require all employers to contribute towards health coverage for their employees; (4) mandate all children have health care coverage; (5) expand Medicaid and SCHIP to cover more of the least well-off among us; and (6) allow state flexibility for state health reform plans.

I'm not quite sure how that jibes with "never made it the focus of his health care ideas," but YMMV.

But if the DC wags think that the base is going to get over its "fixation" on a public option in a week, I seriously doubt it. Here's Rasmusssen from yesterday:

One major challenge is that while most voters oppose the legislation with or without a so-called “public option, that option is essential to supporters. In fact, without the inclusion of a government-run health insurance company to compete with private insurers, enthusiasm for the reform plan collapses among Democrats.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx



then we find out who is really writing the bill...........


Letting Insurance Write the Bill: How Bad Is That?
By: emptywheel

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/09/10/letting-insurance-write-the-bill-how-bad-is-that/

Thursday September 10, 2009 8:51 am

Ezra has written a thoughtful follow-up to my complaint that discussions of the role of insurance company in writing our legislation neglect to discuss profit. I agree with parts of it and disagree with others. The most important point Ezra makes--which explains his focus on providers to the exclusion of insurance companies--is this passage:



a must read in it's entirety...

Of course, that's not entirely right. Patients whose health care is provided by their employer "like the health system better when it's got unlimited amounts of money flowing through it." Patients who have to pay out of pocket--like many of the ones who will be mandated to buy insurance--don't really like that so much. And it's not just patients and providers that like a system that's got unlimited amounts of money flowing through it. So do insurers (assuming you understand this to be a system as a whole). Even assuming insurance companies only make that 3.3% profit and setting aside things like huge executive incomes, the insurance companies have an incentive to have as much money flowing into the system that it can take its 3.3% profit on.

And that's one of the baseline problems with letting the insurance companies write the bill: they have just as much incentive as providers to see that as much money gets flowing into the system as possible. And, they have an incentive to make sure that as much of the money put into the system as possible stays in their pocket. For those affected by the mandate who will not be subsidized or will only be partially subsidized, it is actually the patient, and not the insurance company, with the most urgency to cut the amount of money flowing through the system. But the patient doesn't get to write the bill; the insurance company does, and it appears that it is with these patients that the insurance companies stand to make some of their highest profits.

That's one of my gripes with the Max Tax. It sets out-of-pocket caps higher than other bills and sets lower amounts (73% if they are to be subsidized) that insurers have to cover. The result will be that more middle class families go into debt. As it's written, the Max Tax (frankly, most the bills) amount to a mandate that is simply not affordable for some middle class families. But the Max Tax throws in a bit more mandated costs that will go to insurance company profitability. The extra thousand or more dollars included for insurance companies means a lot to a family otherwise faced with surviving off of less than $8,000 for utilities, transportation, education, clothing, and debt. To me, you don't have to get any further than this money--taken from middle class families who will still go into debt under this scheme and giving it to insurance company profit--to demonstrate "how bad it is" that the insurance company wrote the bill.

The other big difference with a bill written by insurance companies is that it includes no apparent means to challenge the insurance companies to limit how much money they ask to be put in the system in the first place--something the public option would help to do. Now, Ezra argues the exchange will be enough to bring costs down.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Hartmann on Obama's Speech: For Profit Health Industry Continue Skim $$ To Support Dems 2010!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=368974&mesg_id=368974


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx



And we are supposed to be happy about it all???? sorry this is dealing with my health care and that of my family..and i have no hopey shit to play out when you talk about my kids health and that of my grandchildren...and their future.I want facts and truth..I am not going to go all warm and Fuzzy because my party wants to stuff something down my throat to say they did something..

This is our government..mine ..and yours ..I have every damn right to speak up about the crap I don't like and how we are being manipulated and propagandized..if you don't like it..don't come to a message board..people discuss here..if that is a serious problem for you ..why are you here????????

If you have a problem with people discussing what their health care reform will be , take it up with the White House..they haven't been very forthcoming with what we are going to be graced with or sold out with.

I didn't know this was a cheerleading board..

Maybe you should open a board yourself for only good warm fuzzy stuff.

[nashville_brook]

76. best post all day.

couldn't agree more:

And we are supposed to be happy about it all???? sorry this is dealing with my health care and that of my family..and i have no hopey shit to play out when you talk about my kids health and that of my grandchildren...and their future.I want facts and truth..I am not going to go all warm and Fuzzy because my party wants to stuff something down my throat to say they did something..

[Sukie]

78. Again with the cheerleader insults towards those who support

the president. Actually, why don't you open a board that is full of the doom and gloom that you seem to want everyone else to be subjected to.

[flyarm]

133. well we gwet called whinners on a daily basis ..if i call for truth and answers I am a whinner..

so i see it only fitting to answer back in truth..

I want truth..not false rhetoric..I want to know why this White House made deals on my family's health care with Big Pharma and the insurance and hospital ceo's...why?????????????

Who is getting protected here????????? and why?????????

Oh their party seats???????

I have not worked hard and paid out large sums of money to the dem party to be sold out on my families health care..and those i have advocated for for a lifetime.

And when i speak out i am called a whinner or a hater ..or whatever is the word du jour.....it goes both ways ya know!

Hartmann on Obama's Speech: For Profit Health Industry Continue Skim $$ To Support Dems 2010!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvxNMUFd4wQ&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Edemocraticunderground%2Ecom%2Fdiscuss%2Fduboard%2Ephp%3Faz%3Dview%5Fall%26address%3D385x368974&feature=player_embedded

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

81. Don't forget that Obama didn't advocate mandatory insurance & Hillary did.

That was a deciding factor for a lot of people.

[flyarm]

130. but he is now and a damn lot of mandatory mandates! and a fine of $3,800. bucks

if you don't buy health care coverage...in some cases more than your mortgage payment!

with friends like that, the poor need what??????

so either Hillary told the truth about mandates..or Obama did what??????

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

135. Will you please visit me in debtors prison?

[flyarm]

163. HECK.. for you..I will bail you out!!! Kids and all!!..but think about it..

how far off could it be????????

so If you don't buy the insurance you can't afford..how the hell could you afford the fine????? and what do they do if you can't pay the fine????????? slap your hands silly? or incarcerate you saying you are a risk to society????? they sure as hell could do that..say if the swine flu went out of control...or any other bio terrorist crap..how far off could it be really?

They took people after Katrina to places hidden in woods..

many of us felt Katrina was a test..a test for what?

And who here doesn't think a pandemic could not be started by say terrorists..or our own government?????

Why were all those prisons built?????????? and for whom???????

[Hissyspit]

162. God bless the "whiners."

Like Jane Hamsher and Marcy Wheeler.

If I were somehow expected to always live by a conventional ideology of "It's O.K. Because Our Guys Are Doing It,' then I would no longer post here. This place would cease to be of much significant value.

Sorry if that offends anyone.

EDIT to add: Make that non-troll "whiners."

[Milk]

164. Did you not get your car?

Some of you will never be happy.

[sabrina 1]

172. Excellent post.

[redqueen]

53. Yeah, I realized that a while back. (nt)

[Kind of Blue]

54. Aaah, a political realist. Thank you, LynneSin.

K&R!

[Bonhomme Richard]

57. I have also been here a long, long time and I agree

Some here sound as rabid as those over at freepville.

[DevonRex]

63. Great post. K&R.

Of course, I'm just a lame-brained Kool-Aid drinking, paid operative of the White House, so what do I know? :sarcasm:

[bushisanidiot]

69. Excellent post! Thank you!!

I imagine that President Obama's job as leader of the democrats is like trying to herd cats. All of us have our pet issues that we want to have solved NOW because they've been going on TOO LONG:

End global warming NOW.
Same sex marriage rights in every state NOW.
Universal health care for all NOW.
Fix the economy NOW.
End homelessness NOW.
Pass a bill to pay for everyone to go to college for free NOW.

all of these things are things we've wanted for a long time. people act like President Obama has a magic wand to fix everything wrong with this country and he's just choosing not to use it. Going in the right direction, even though it may not have the EXACT coordinates that everyone thinks his plan should have, is still moving in the right direction. The repukes were steering our country off a cliff and laughing all the way to the bank. What short memories all of these Obama haters have!!

If we can't stand behind our elected candidate as ONE voice, we will never have a democratic president for more than one term at most.
If some LOSER is gonna pull a Ted Kennedy 1980, we're gonna hand the reigns back over to BushCo.. who will most likely run Jeb within the next 8 years. Talk about grabbin' your ankles, kids... we will be screwed much worse than when AWOL Bush was farting in the oval office.

[DainBramaged]

82. Of the people here (I think) are the true voice of reason, I count you among the very top

Don't be disappointed. I get disappointed every day by the reactions here to MANY subjects dear to me, but we just have to pick ourselves up and try again the next day. The reason SOME of us are still here is because we ARE Progressives, not johnny come lately's or trolls.

You done good.

:hug:

[brentspeak]

83. Do you realize that Obama made all of us captive customers to the insurance industry?

[leftstreet]

94. It's a complicated chess move to force insurers out of business

So they tell me

:shrug:

I don't know why we can't just bail out the insurance industry now, and move straight to single payer.

[Bobbie Jo]

86. Yes Ma'am. K&R!

:kick:

PS...You're a good Democrat in my book, FWIW.

[hfojvt]

101. A new car? That's not a good plan!

We should be trying for mass transit.

And we are not just armchair quarterbacks. At least I am not. I got active in politics in the late 1980s when I was 26 or so. One of my methods of activism is writing. First, letters to the editor, but now online too. People of the left have always believed that education was key to making a better world. I see DU as an attempt to push back at Republican spin.

However, our enemies are not just in the Republican party. A big part of the problem is our own party. The DLCers among us. The Liebermans and the Boswells. We have to push back against their spin too. Activists here are very good, some of them, at finding out what is going on. That is clearly a first step to stopping bad policy.

I stand with the DUers who want to stop bad policy, and I am not sure if Obama is standing with us even as he asks us to stand with him.

We do not complain for the sake of complaining, although there is a large contingency still upset about single-payer, but many of us would have cheered a speech if Obama had insisted on a Public Option. He could have taken a strong stand, but chose not to. Instead, he lectured progressives "remember a public option is only a means to an end".

We also are a little bit afraid of having a repeat of the 1990s when Clinton threw us under the bus and then kept backing up over us. We are determined that somehow, someway, we are not gonna get fooled again.

[lib_wit_it]

341. "and I am not sure if Obama is standing with us even as he asks us to stand with him." You are wise

to doubt: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=369101&mesg_id=369101

[JuniperLea]

103. Well said, LynneSin

I'm all for holding Obama's feet to the fire, but all the heads on fire around here are tap dancing on my last raw nerve.

After last night, I want to hold his feet to the fire to make sure he calls out all the lying Pubbies... and it will be a bodacious smackdown to the anti-Obama crowd around here as well.

:yourock:

[malaise]

106. Great post

K & R

[JerseygirlCT]

119. Lynne, I agree

And I also never expected that I would agree with the president on everything. But boy, it sure it better to feel that I agree with him - mostly and on most things.

None of which means I won't have occasion to complain. I reserve my right to do so! ;)

But really - the difference between this and the last administration is dramatic, so dramatic. And the problems we've been handed are so huge - so huge - that is it going to take some time.

As you say, at least now we're heading in the right direction.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

120. Why the hate, LynneSin? Why the hate?

...shakes head sadly (and knowingly)




You know I'm just pulling your leg, right? Considering the god-awful mess he inherited and the well-funded and intractable opposition, I think he's going a damn fine job.

[Bluerthanblue]

123. Rec.- DU is just a microcosm - some people ARE never satisfied,

and likely never will allow themselves to be. I agree with you - It was a good speech, I'm also glad to have worked for Obama's election, and while the HCR isn't my "ideal"- it's a good start, and we can't expect miracles.

:hi:

[Ilsa]

124. Some people are expecting perfection and utopia.

It's a great thing to strive for, but we also need to rejoice and support the progress forward when we get it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

127. And having been here since February 2001, I have come to the conclusion

that the Democrats have no party discipline, that a goodly percentage are compromised, and that their most consistent talent is making up lame excuses for letting the Republicans walk all over them.

I respect the Progressive Caucus in Congress and Russ Feingold, Tom Harkin, and Bernie Sanders in the Senate. The others have to prove to me that they care about the people more than about the corporations. There may be hope for Al Franken, but I have lost all respect for Amy Klobuchar.

[Skittles]

168. DAMN STRAIGHT LYDIA

gawd I am sick of the apologists

[KoKo]

203. I've been here since 2001, and active since then because of Stolen Election

and the rest of the Bush Crimes. Unlike what Will Pitt says above, most of us who've been here have been boots on the ground active in Dem politics locally and nationally. Keyboard Warriors is insulting when folks who've been here with us remember all we've done. Protesting Sinclair Affiliates, going to DC for huge Anti-Iraq Invasion demonstrations and engaging with our local Congress Critters at Town Hall Meetings and personall. Election Activism where many got our states to change election laws because of working with our State Legislatures. Then there are the phone, faxes and petitions. The money we've donated to get ads out there that would work to get the truth out about issues. The involvement with activists groups.

It's sad to see a post calling out DU'ers who are part of this community who contribute and have legitimate reasons to hold our Democrats feet to the fire if waffle on programs that Dems have worked hard for years to support, and if they don't uphold the issues they based their campaigns on and got voted in to uphold.

DU has been an incredible site for sharing activism and getting word out about projects and activities for Democrats, and a wonderful support network. Up until recently, that is.

[David Zephyr]

242. Bravo.

See my post #239.

[David Zephyr]

241. Agreed.

See my post #239. I feel the same way.

[enigmatic]

298. I've been here 6 years

And I completely agree with you.

[HughMoran]

304. Ooooo, there is one small caucus and 3 people that meet your standards in the entire country

Well, at least you're honest.

[armyowalgreens]

129. Yes, some of us are not content with mediocrity. Get over it.

[Selatius]

131. Umm, the jury is still out as far as Obama doing anything for health care yet.

When the final bill is read and passed in both chambers and is then signed by the president, THEN you can have something to claim, but until then, please do not assume it is a given.

[LanternWaste]

132. I fully agree.

I fully agree.

Far more often than not, I've supported Obama's policy positions-- though I imagine to many that means I'm a member of the DLC, the DNC, the GOP, a corporatist, a nazi, or whatever trendy pejorative is being sported on t-shirts every where by individuals whose political dogma is far more rigid and structured than many an outspoken Sunday morning televangelist.

I pay little heed to the intolerant 'fire and brimstone' statements from any ideology-- whether they are religious, philosophical or political in nature-- because in the end, the extremists are all pretty much six of one and half a dozen of the other-- regardless of whether their ammunition is a bible or a voting booth.

[lib_wit_it]

330. Hmmmmm...Isn't that FDR--your avatar? /m

[taterguy]

134. Giving every American a new car would be a disaster for the environment

And perpetuate the oil wars that progressives are allegedly opposed to.

[fadedrose]

136. How about just me? nt

[taterguy]

154. What's the matter? Are your legs broken?

I profusely apologize in advance if that happens to be the case.

Just don't give me that crap about how it's too cold.

Lots of people in Minnesota ride bikes.

They use these spiffy new inventions called gloves, hats and coats.

[fadedrose]

157. If you don't want to give me the car, dammit, just say so....nt

[Tippy]

138. My entire family campaigned for Obama....

Made signs, worked at the campaign office, even the litle ones carried signs durring early voting...I'm so proud of al of them.....

[mmonk]

141. Good for you. I guess you are better than us who have issues

with the bill then.

[johnaries]

143. DLCer! :)

Well said, Lynne! As I said in another thread, an old friend once described a mutual acquaintance "if the world were perfect, she'd bitch because she didn't have anything to bitch about". As I also said in that thread, as a Progressive I would like to see some actual Progress. Sitting around and talking about how it "should" be won't accomplish that. You have to be a pragmatist and play with the hand you are dealt. It IS possible to compromise without compromising your ideals.

Obama is a pragmatist. I campaigned and voted for him because I think he can actually make some PROGRESS.

edit: kant spel

[Mythsaje]

144. If they PROMISED us a new car, we wouldn't be happy.

Because a PROMISE is not a delivered item. They can promise anything, but can they deliver?

[johnaries]

146. Remember when Oprah gave away new cars to her audience?

And then they were all pissed because they had to pay taxes? That's DU!

But you bring up an excellent point. Can they deliver? They can promise us single-payer, but in the present environment there's no way they can deliver it.

Obama is pushing reform that he believes Congress can actually deliver. No, it doesn't include everything I would like and I'm sure Obama would want more himself. But he is attempting to actually deliver something that addresses the most essential aspects. That is why I support his efforts. I want to see more in the future, but I would like to see something actually delivered now that we can build on later.

[Mythsaje]

149. They should have PROMISED us single payer

used it (and their promise) to open up negotiations. Instead, they took the most watered-down version they could imagine, packed it all up nice and pretty, and crawled to the conservatives on their knees to ask "pretty please?" They were spat on and kicked in the face. So they crawled back, put together an even weaker package and tried to shove THAT through congress.

Small children can negotiate better than the Democrats.

Had the situation been reversed, the Republicans would've gone not only for Single Payer, but for Universal Education as well, backing off ONLY with a lot of hissing and spitting and clawing. And you know what? They probably would've gotten Single Payer. Had the Dems gone that route, they might've managed a strong public option. But apparently greed, arrogance, and selfishness infuses the spine with strength beyond reckoning.

Bipartisanship is compromise out of the gate. And it's a betrayal. That's why the Republicans don't play that. And why they get so much of their bullshit passed. Because they're evil and evil doesn't compromise.

[johnaries]

156. Single-payer has been proposed in every session of the House

for the last 40 years. Didn't you hear Obama praise Dingell and his father? What happened? The same thing that happened to HR676. It was sent to committee to die. WE can't get single-payer. It's a non-starter.

Would you rather them promise something they can deliver, or something they can't?

As for the Republicans, why haven't they been able to outlaw abortion? Why haven't they been able to get Christianity in public schools? Republicans are the ones who make promises they can't keep.

[lib_wit_it]

272. Yes, and in the face of such evil, we need to wage a wholly vigorous war--no compromise their side

hasn't expended great energy and resources to extract! The Dems, under Obama's influence and/or their own faltering efforts, have failed to employ the full measure of their potential at this time of potential power.

What if FDR had been so easily cowed?

[Wind Dancer]

147. Interesting!

I thought DU was a place for everybody to voice opinions even if they differ from one another.

:shrug:

[flaminbats]

150. IMO we have two political types on both sides..

neocons show an inability to listen or even think about the ideas or problems of others. if someone talks about a preexisting condition and why insurance companies shouldn't limit benefits or raise his premium, the neocon responds it isn't his problem. if someone says a mandate is needed and everyone should pitch in, the neocon claims he shouldn't be forced to pay a premium because he is young and will always be healthy. if someone says a Public OPTION should be part of the legislation, the neocon responds that a Public OPTION is only a forced government takeover of healthcare.

Some people on the left don't listen enough, but IMO that only gets worse in the Republican Party. Moderates and most of the liberal posters at DU are willing to listen to both sides of the debate when forming an opinion. I think that is a defining difference between our party and the Republicans.

but hang in there, even at DU..thick skin is needed in a political debate. :fistbump:

[graywarrior]

151. I'm totally with you on this one, Lynnesin.

Right. There. With. You!

[treestar]

153. I agree, if Dennis K were President

And congress full of people who would vote for single payer, there's still be something to whine about on that plan.

[LynneSin]

160. There's only one democrat out there that I agree 100% with all the time...

....and that's me.

And I'd still probably find reasons to complain about what I was doing.

BTW, this is the reason that some of the most liberal folks in the Senate & House are not the Majority Leaders. It's a shit position that is more criticism that most people want to deal with.

[Generic Brad]

165. Thank you for that dose of realism

It was not the ideal comeback, but it was good enough for me!

[LibDemAlways]

166. I'll reserve judgment until I read the actual bill that gets passed and

signed, but if it's nothing more than tweaking of the bloated, inefficient, ineffective insurance system we're stuck with now, a mandate that forces people to buy into said system, and some sort of weak, watered down "public" option that gets introduced years from now, I reserve the right to be sorely disappointed at some future date.

[LoZoccolo]

167. I think they just like the superior feeling of being contrarian.

Do you wanna know why I think this? Because when it comes to actually doing things to sway public opinion their way (or even spending time practically considering how they are going to get what they want) they don't do Jack Schitt. Some people want to feel that they are smarter than all of the Democrats and Republicans; attaining that delusion does not require actually participating in democracy.

I once asked people who the real Democrats were. Some people gave the sensible answer that all of them were; out of everybody else, I recieved /three/ names, and one of them wasn't even a Democrat.

[Blue_Tires]

170. Make my car a Corvette, please...

[ginnyinWI]

174. very true.

I joined five years ago almost, and at the time I thought they just didn't like Kerry very much. But no, they don't like anybody in power. They like the little guy, the downtrodden underdog. They like everyone better when they are out of power. That's about the gist of it.

Also people come here to bitch and moan because it's anonymous and it feels good. There's a tendency not to talk about happy stuff, just the worries and fears.

[kandkfunk]

176. Thank you!

This is the first post I've read that has actually made me want to join in on the discussions - here on DU or any other blog. I have felt increasingly frustrated with the tone and message of posters on this and other blogs recently. I see a lot of what we despise in the Republicans coming out in out many people in the liberal, progressive, Democratic blogosphere and it's very disappointing.

One reply above listed all the things that Obama hasn't accomplished in his first nine months, including ending both wars, overturning don't ask don't tell, overturning DOMA, fixing the economy and completely overhauling the healthcare system. I mean he's had a whole nine months to accomplish this minor list of "to do's", right? (Dripping with sarcasm). I can't believe that people expected so much from him within a year. Things that took decades to mess up, he is supposed to fix with the snap of his fingers. No wonder some people called Obama supporters Kool-aid drinkers. If anybody actually thought all of those things could be accomplished, even in the first four years of his term, you are deeply uneducated on the realities of the American political system. Yes, it's sad that money plays such a big part in the system and that lobbyists have so much control, but the fact is, that's the system we currently have and it isn't going to change anytime soon. So, the best we can hope for is that Obama can navigate the muddled congressional process and get things changed. He's had a rough start, but he is a tenacious fighter and I'm not ready to give up yet.

Don't be fooled, this is going to be a slow process. We may get some type of healthcare reform this year. It may not be perfect, it won't please everybody, but it's a start. However, there probably won't be much else accomplished for the remainder of the year. That's a hard fact that we have to face. We are not a lock-step party like the Republicans. We are more diverse and inclusive, with a lot more ideas and opinions. That sometimes works to our disadvantage, but we can't start beating up on each other or the Republicans win. That's what they're waiting for, because that's the usual modus operandi of Democrats. The Republicans are hoping that they can sit back, wait until 2010, and make some big gains in the house and senate. If that happens, what will Obama face then? He won't have any hope of making the types of changes you are all expecting.

Sorry for the lengthy reply, but I had to get that off my chest. Thanks again for the post LynneSin!

[Altoid_Cyclist]

215. Welcome to DU!

I want to commend you on your first post. It basically said what I was thinking but I couldn't have said it as well. In the cacophony of the thread, the one theme that is obvious is that the previous 8 years (and farther back in reality) have done great harm to this country. It's going to require a great deal of time and patience on our part to rectify what's already been done to our country. If we aren't careful, the Reptiles will be able to divide and conquer us with our assistance.
What's great about DU is that, of course there will be things that we can't all agree on. We are free to disagree which is a positive if used properly. But we can't lose sight of the main objective which is to take back our country and restore as many of the things that this country and our people used to take pride in.

[lonestarnot]

177. 71

[Grinchie]

180. I guess I just am content to demand perfection

Instead of another boondoggle like Mandatory Insurance for all.

Give me a break. Now if he said, you can either pay taxes and support two wars, pay Blackwater/XE for however long we choose to extend their contract, and bailout the banks, OR not pay taxes and buy Medica Insurance, then maybe I could live with that.

No, I'm reckless, because I eat GMO food because it is unlabeled and pervasive in the food supply, not because I don't have health insurance. How about fixing that little bit of obviousness and supporting an ounce of prevention proactively.

Nope, he aint gonna mess with Monsanto or Michael Taylor, or the lucrative virtually unregulated GMO industry, brought to you by Bush Senior and Dan Quayle to make America strong again! Woo Hoo.

But they don't mention that many countries don't want our poisonous patented shit, and would rather eat natural food. Strangely, so do 90% of Americans, if they even knew that GMO's are everywhere in the supermarket, hidden in everday products.

The Speech was Wonderful, but then again, it's only a speech. Anyone know who wrote it?

[rhett o rick]

324. Decent coverage is all I ask. That means a strong public option and nothing less. nt

[Grinchie]

347. It's called Medicare for All, but we will get Insurance in Name only

At this point, it doesn't take an analyst to see the destructive path America is continuing on.

The growing body of evidence showing the (/11 was probably an inside job, along with the Millions of people in Germany, France, Italy and Rsussi not buying the official story, has serious ramification for the US.

It is clear that the 9/11 commission whitewashed much of the data, and we continue to see a media blackout on the new revelations regarding the 9/11 event. The media in other countries, not owned operated and controlled by the Corporations and subject to Government messaging, and not afraid to publish the growing evidence of explosive and disturbing facts uncovered by people that still beilieve in freedom of speech, and the integrity of science.

We are now a debtor nation. We no longer manufacturer anything of value except for Weapons of war, and the service of a Military for Hire. 9/11 was for Bush as the Reichstag was for Hitler. It was an excuse to assume power of the Unitary executive, and invade two other nations. When the 9/11 event is revealed in detail, their will be serious reparation owed to the world, in terms of lost economic opportunity in Irag, the loss of Constitutional freedoms in the United States, the crushing national debt, which ultimately drove the world into the Great Depresssion Version 2.0. Iraq will demand reparations for the destruction of infrastructure, and the death and disfigurement of Millions of Iraqi Nationals.

The U.S. Government has successfully sidestepped all these 800 pound chickens coming home to roost, but they a big chickens, and they are getting restless. It is only a matter of time before the 9/11 data becaomes too overwhelming to conceal, and the U.S. is held accountable for the crimes committed against humanity.

I'm not even talking about our own reaction to these revelations. It would be earthshattering in it's scope.

I really do not believe that we will get a "Public Insurance Option" as Obama like to recast the "Public Option" in his speech in any time frame that would affect uus before the 800 pound flesh eating chickens break down the door and begin to feed on the corpus of America.

The 180` turn of Obama from the candidate for change disappeared immediately after the election, so one has to wonder what information caused him to change so radically, and basically agree to continue on the course laid out by Bush and the Neo-Cons. The Global Carbon emissions legislations was gutted, yet does not that affect our health? We now have Monsanto Lobbiests in place for Food Safety in the USDA, while GMO remains unlabeled and abundany in our food supply. Does that not affect our health? We have a secretray of Energy that is very quiet, yet when he does come out of his cave, he touts Genetically Modified Ethanol feedstock? What the hell is this insanity. There is no humanity left in the world, corporation or their patsy's the Government.

I'm very disappointed. We had the oppertunity to take a few steps back and redesign our advanced civilization, but they chose to do the politically expedient, simply because they have not a clue how to proceed. I see the U.S Governmnet flailing in the wind, stuck in a trap of your own design, but it's crafted so well, they cannot escape.. They are slowly dying, but inevitably they are going to succumb.

There is a reason why so many people don't have insurance, and thats because it is only the illusion of insurance. Diabetics are well aware of the fraud of the Insurance companies, but regular people only become aware when thay have an event the triggers the immediate cancellation by the insurance companies. The chronics that can do numbers, see that they actuall pay double for meds and supplies. Once for the real meds, and then double it for premiums tha don't pay for anything until deductible kicks in. It's a fraud, and the game is rigged to that the healthy don't see it, and the ones that do, like the chronics, are shown the door.

Mandatory insurance.. Geez. Obama is pretty stupid to offer that dog.

[info being]

181. My conclusion...

...is that the Democrats seldom do anything aside from give good speeches. See, a good speech isn't enough for people who actually care about results.

[Stellar]

182. I'm so glad to find someone that feels the same as I do.

Thanks for sharing! ;)

[Techn0Girl]

183. Great Comment :)

I loved your take on the situation and you sound to me like a realistic, moderate Progressive who can make sensible compromises when necessary - and let's face it politics is compromise.

I understand your frustration and I understand your comment about armchair quaterbacking. Here's how I see it: On the Internet , here or anywhere else the most prolific posters are , in general, those with nothing better to do. Those people who are out there getting their hands dirty , knocking on door and phone banking and whatever else needs to be done to get the job done post far less then people who for whatever reason sit at home all the time.

So you get a situation , on any Internet forum, where the most prolific poster in general are the ones least likely to make a real difference in the world - the armchair quaterbacks . I'm not talking everyone by any means but I think it more the rule than exception. So you get a weird effect on the Internet where people with extremist views and little practical experience, people who are generally excluded from most real life gatherings , are given not only an equal say as everyone else but many times a far greater share of the bandwidth - simply ecause they have nothing else to do. So you end up thinking that everyone is an idiot and it gets discouraging.

So I suppose that I am saying to take heart and realize that by their nature any internet forum tends to seem as if most people are way beyond the pale when the truth is that you have a relative few people posting a whole lot of crap in cyberspace whereas the people actually making a difference are doing thing in real life and have less time to post.

Maybe that gives some perspective.

[azmouse]

270. I like the way you think.

...and a belated 'Welcome to DU!' :)

[Odin2005]

353. Welcome to DU fellow reasonable person!

Yep, I volunteer for lots of shit, but I am scum to the Naderite Keyboard warriors that want to play Armchair Rebel. Pathetic.

[grantcart]

184. Until we liberate the oppressed creatures on the planet Zorox

I WILL NOT BE SATISFIED!!!!!

[Douglas Carpenter]

185. agree!!

[Silver Gaia]

187. Thank you, LynneSin.

It's good to know that there are other pragmatists around here. I feel a little less 'alone' after having read this thread. :)

[slay]

188. Well... good for you

Keep reminding yourself whatever you need to so that your worldview doesn't go spinning out of control. Me - I'm going to fight for real change until we get it - regardless of (D) or (R) (corporate D and R of course). Sorry you won't be there - but I'm sure you'll continue to have fun cheerleading from the sidelines. Or not. Whatever. I guess the whole point of your post is Yay you - you campaigned for Obama and HE won yay it's cookie time! Sorry but way more corporate money went into helping Obama win than anything you ever did and that's a sad fact I wish we could change but with the current system it seems unlikely. Oh and healthcare is not a done deal so we'll see where he takes us with that. I just hope you have the sense to turn away before glorious leader leads the blind right off a cliff - or more likely into a wall - doh! Oh yeah, how's he done getting us out of endless wars? Hrmm ok we'll put that one aside. Repealing DADT? Hrmmm.. strike two. Letting the Bush criminals walk free with NO consequences - well duh, we all just knew that was gonna happen. Your rose colored glasses seemed to have fogged over allowing you to disregard some of these facts I guess.

[salguine]

195. Your new car analogy is interesting. The problem I have with what's going on now is,

to use your analogy...There's a difference between the Democrats promising you a new car and giving you a new car, and the Democrats promising you a new car and then making it happen by passing a law forcing you to buy a new car or be fined. See the difference?

[sendero]

196. Here are some "facts" for you to consider..

... "promising" a new car is worth a bucket of warm spit. Delivering one is a horse of a different color.

The "incremental" approach to health care is not going to work, because the window of Dem control of Washington is going to be very small.

It's the economy, stupid, and the economy will take Dems out of power because no matter how unhappy one is about Obama's handling of the health care issue, he's doing great with that compared to his "bail out the banks and let everyone else fry" approach to the economy.

As the economy continues to languish, the anger in this country is going to rise and the blame is going to go to the Dems because while they were the minority in creating the mess they are the majority in perpetuating it.

So, I'm glad you are happy with a president who is continuing the pointless and UNWINNABLE war, and who continually talks a good game but almost never delivers (remind you of anyone) but I am not. I don't care which party is in the white house if they can just be on the right side of 51% or more important issues. Obama is not.

[Odin2005]

354. Oh BS, the Puke are out of power for a generation now.

Typical Naderite pablum.

[rateyes]

197. Without the public option,

the cost of "coverage" will not come down nearly enough. And, if the public option is not subsidized by government--it will be just another "insurance company" that can't compete with the big boys.

So, yeah, the public option is make or break for me, and if that makes me a whiner---so be it.

[Forkboy]

199. Take a look around the world and tell me why I should be happy, with Dems or anyone?

I'm 41 and I've watched as nearly everything I care about has just gotten worse and worse, regardless of which party holds power. The decline is slower under the Dems, but just as real. The real answers aren't with Obama or any other chosen leader...they're within us individually.

[Le Taz Hot]

201. And I've been here for the same 8 years

and I never cease to be amazed at people who offer blind loyalty to a party and it's politicians just so they can vote against the interest of same. And we're supposed to shut up about it.

[HamdenRice]

204. THANK YOU! Coming from a respected long time DUer, this means so much nt

[Jo March]

205. Here's a shirt for them, LynneSin

http://www.threadless.com/product/2009/Wah_Wah_Wahhhhh?utm_medium=ExactTarget&utm_campaign=September-7-2009_090709+Monday+%2f+Inactives&utm_source=090709+Monday+%2f+Inactives#top

[izzybeans]

206. I agree.

I also believe that I can support our President while disagreeing on some of the policy details of certain issues. If the devil is truly in the details, no one should feel that their criticisms of policy are discounted as petty complaints; especially the President's supporters. It's our right and responsibility to voice our opinions, and on policy matters, it's mandatory in my book. Otherwise, that rascally devil remains.

Criticism is at the core of progressive democratic participation and this is most true outside of the election cycle during the legislative process. Imagine what the policy devil would look like if there were no criticism from the left.

[rox63]

207. You speak for me as well, LynneSin

:applause:

[Robb]

208. Welcome to DU!

:hi: :rofl:

...Well put. :)

[berni_mccoy]

210. Rock on Lynne! K&R.

[scentopine]

211. LOL! Judge by policy and progress not speeches, but...

you are correct about this: The nation is mostly disengaged democrat-republicans and republican-republicans and continuing to move to the right. Obama and Rahm Emanuel have tapped in to this. They are following the trail blazed by right wing media 24/7. The media softens us up to desensitize us to corporate run government and right wing philosohies without a shred of analysis. Obama just needs to stay in the slip stream of all this, ever so slightly to the left to give the illusion that real change is possible.

But you are dead wrong about this: you will find that most of the cherished "real" democrats you allude to don't lift a finger for support or think much beyond the surface issues and tv fluff. There is real dialog and concern here between educated and active people. I'm not proud I campaigned for Obama, he has done nothing for the opposition to republicans in general except to move us more to the right using the strategy above, thereby stealing some voters away from the fringe but making us more like 1980 republicans than 2009 democrats.

Obama
B+ for speeches
D for policy and with threat of failure.

Bush
D for speeches
F for policy and confirmed failure

So yes, we are better off.

[Richd506]

212. I'm with you completely

[Surya Gayatri]

214. What you said , LynneSin!!

You're my kind of Democrat, for what it's worth. I too believe that BO is trying his damnedest to do right by ALL those who elected him (of which we DUers are only an infinitesimal fraction). As the saying goes, Rome wasn't built in a day and the comparison of Washington to the Roman Empire is more apt than we like to think. Thanks for expressing my exact feelings so well. SG

[Umbral]

216. Yeah, it was a good speech, but speeches are just words. nt

[rhett o rick]

219. I am disappointed with this post. You are essentially agreeing with Rahm, telling us to shut up and

sit down. Go ahead if you wish, but I havent yet begun to fight. You are telling us to quit whining when we actually are demanding decent health care. DECENT isn't asking too much. You seem willing to settle for less than decent. People are literally dieing do to our lack of DECENT coverage and you say be patient.

Single payer is what we need but some are willing to settle for a strong public option. To compromise for less is literally killing people. You can give up but I am fighting (not whining) for a strong public option.

Today we have the majority of Americans behind us and behind the public option. If the President gives that away because of pressure from CorpAmerica, it may be a long time before we have the chance again. This took a lot of work to get this far and it isn't the time to quit.

It was a good speech and I believe the President wants to do the right thing. But he needs us to keep the pressure on to help him convince Congress.

"No matter how full the glass is they will still see it mostly empty." Or when we see the glass is empty we wont sit down and shut up.

[AlbertCat]

223. No matter how full the glass is they will still see it mostly empty.

But this is healthy. Debate.... which moves things forward, is good. The Repugs, you'll notice DON'T debate. They yell slogans, many of which are untrue and completely absurd. To call Obama, for instance, a Socialist and paint a Hitler mustache on him reveals that they know little about either Socialism or Hitler and is completely unhelpful. Most rants here about Obama have to do with things not moving fast enough or going far enough, but the general direction is the same. Some good points are made on both DU sides. Repugs haven't made a good point for years and years.

The last thing we want is lock step thinking.

[rhett o rick]

233. The glass is empty. The so called trigger will never get pulled. Don't fall for the lies. nt

[BlueJac]

225. You miss the point of this site!!

It is a discussion board where not all people will agree.


Just fall in line and shut up, right?

[mopinko]

228. you go girl

some here are no better than the teabaggers, and i suspect they share an affliction of the soul.

[azmouse]

230. Very well said.

:applause:

[butterfly77]

231. Kick &Recommended!!!

[kid a]

236. i never use ignore, and pay for it in aggravation...but posts like this keep me sane - K & R

[rhett o rick]

246. So you are ready, like the poster, to give up the public option? Just like that? nt

[David Zephyr]

239. Not everyone here is an "arm chair quarterback". Many of us are life-long activists.

I liked your over all optimism, but the back-handed, and thinly-veiled gripe about those of us who want President Obama to keep the campaign promises he made as Candidate Obama was a truly cheap shot. I hope it made you feel better. I truly do.

Having spent over 40 years in street activism from civil rights and the Vietnam War to fighting for reproductive rights, GLBT rights, marching locally and in D.C., I find your "arm chair" comment insulting and not just to myself, but to a large number of us here at the DU whose lives, whose actions, whose sweat and sacrifice for progressive causes can be measured more than how many strokes we've made at a keyboard on blogs.

You don't need to defend Obama by attacking his greatest ally: the activist Left who actually stand for something more than just electing politicians.

The "strong conclusion" that you have come to "after 8 years" is a conclusion you should have understood eight years ago: real progressives have standards and expectations and we "won't be happy" until social/economic/environmental justice is achieved globally.

If you are content with the status quo, then why are you even here? Think about that question, because there's someone to the right of you who thinks you are a whiner, too.

[ChiciB1]

329. I May Not Have 40 Years In... But My Father Introduced Me To Politics When

I was 11 and he was a very kind, loving MILITARY MAN! I grew up as an Army Brat, but when it came to the Viet Nam War my father told me "it was a mistake" to ever go there! He was ALWAYS a Democrat, and back then he must have been considered an "outsider" or perhaps a "socialist leftie" as some say of the left today!! And he was a Sgt/Major and in command of many soldiers beneath him. Now, I don't know what he told them, perhaps he didn't dissent in a vocal way because it just wasn't done at that time. You were "in the Army" and you did as the Army told you! Even me and my five sisters were pretty much "in the Army" too! There WERE those RULES & REGULATIONS to follow! I was PROUD of my father and my family back then and I'm proud of the lessons he taught me!

I've made this comment here many, many times in the past, but it's what MY father told me so many years ago. If You Don't Stand For SOMETHING, You'll Fall For ANYTHING!! Those words STILL mean something to me and I've passed them onto my kids and they repeat them as I did! The words DO have a certain power that I think prevails, and hopefully will prevail to the children of my kids!!

And as David Zephyr stated, "you don't need to defend Obama by attacking his greatest ally: those who actually stand for something more than electing politicians!"

I don't speak out AGAINST you, but I don't understand why you can't see that "WE" are only standing up and speaking out in a similar way, as so many did against LBJ and the WAR in Viet Nam! I'm a Boomer and I remember our ACTIVISM from back then! I wish we could stand together once again when we feel that our best interests aren't being served! SOME OF US see things differently, some of us remember that it's important to hold their feet to the fire as it was done back then!

I too am tired of being "called out" for what I believe, but I WILL STAND for what I believe I'm seeing now! Does that make me correct? Does that mean my wariness about what is happening is actually going to be true in the end? I don't know, but I DO KNOW I've seen a lot that I don't like, some promises that were Obama's mantra have gone by the wayside in a very quick fashion. These "signs" raise some flags for me, so even as a Democrat I can't just sit down and shut-up!

I recall LBJ, even though I couldn't vote for him... I wasn't a "fanny" of his! But I WILL give him this, he GOT SOME GOOD THINGS DONE even though HOW he got them done wasn't always very pretty!

He also paid a price for trying to go against the wishes of THE AMERICAN PEOPLE! It was the "whiney" LIBERALS who finally were heard! The rest is so much history, but what have we learned if we only put all of our eggs in one basket??

Bobby Kennedy's words about "righting wrongs" still ring true, even after ALL THIS TIME!! Bobby Kennedy WAS a Liberal... my kind of LIBERAL! He too paid the ultimate price for standing up for what he believed!

[rhett o rick]

240. To those of you willing to settle for "a step in the right direction", let me remind you

that a bill hasnt even been passed yet. Don't be too quick to settle as you may not even get what has been mentioned by the President. We are still in the negotiating stage and you are willing to settle.

Another thing, the President said it would take maybe 4 years to set up an "exchange". If we don't get a public option this time, just how long do you believe before it could be in place? 6 years? 10 years? Are you willing to settle for that? There are tens of millions of Americans that can't wait that long.

[LynneSin]

253. I think 4 years is realistic

I work for a major US bank and it's going to take us awhile to get those new regz programed. This isn't a flip of the switch and it's done.

I would rather Obama be realistic in 4 years then to let the public wonder "When are we getting this". And Obama did mention options that could be done now to help people until the switch was made.

[rhett o rick]

255. You missed the point. If we don't get the public option this year, it won't be 4 years.

It would be 4 years only if we got it in the bill. If it isn't in the bill it may be a decade.

Please don't settle before we are done negotiating.

[NNN0LHI]

243. Anonymous chat sites like this one attract all kinds of goof balls

You name it we have it here. Nader nuts, Ron Paul crazies. We have them all.

Don

[rhett o rick]

293. I agree and I confess, but what's your point? nt

[grahamhgreen]

248. Mandatory private insurance is immoral unethical and evil.

[valerief]

249. Irony alert! Whining about whining!

:rofl:

[Peacetrain]

250. Tired but very proud

[rhett o rick]

251. Republicans win a lot of battles because they fight. From the looks of this thread

a lot of Democrats are will to "settle". No wonder we can't win a battle.

We need single payer now not in 20 years.

[treestar]

258. IMO, they settle and then fight for what they settled for

Which takes a lot.

But then they have the advantage of wanting nothing - always less government. The far right wants everything but the military abolished.

They'd love to have US military bases over the entire world - yet they have to fight to keep their Iraq war going as long as they can.

[shireen]

252. you make good points but ...

if we don't keep pushing for what we believe is best for the country, there will be less pressure on the President and Congress to do their jobs.

I believe that almost all DU'ers appreciate the good that's been done by our President and Congress. We understand that it takes time to fix the problems that Pres. Obama inherited. But the pressure for true progressive reform must be relentless. It may sound like whining or political armchair quarterbacking to you and some others, but if we shut up, that noise void will be filled by whining and political armchair quarterbacking from the other side. We must keep persistently voicing our concerns and disappointment.

BTW, I recommended your post. Not because I agree with it but because I think your comments are valuable.

[jgraz]

257. When they turn "saying" into actually "doing", a lot more people will be happy with them

Until then, it's just more noise.

[Swagman]

259. well I'm an Aussie and I can't vote for any American but if I could...Obama's the man

you guys are sooooo lucky. Forget the flaws..forget the compromises..a president has one hell of a job to get any policy through..but the world is praying for Barack Obama ! And I tell you this-if he can just half of his health care up he will go down in history as one of the greatest US presidents.

[felinetta]

260. I agree. Well said. I am proud that I voted for President Obama. Thanks for saying this.

[Buzz Clik]

263. I'm late to the game, but nicely stated.

:thumbsup:

[George II]

264. Great post - THANKS!! I've been trying to articulate those thoughts for months but...

...I always got tangled up in my frustration with other DUers and then decided to wait to see if things got better. You did a great job of expressing my feelings for me.

[Gen. Jack D. Ripper]

268. As long as the in-fighting between progressives continues...

the Democratic party will become stagnant. All this endless debate and bickering causes only division, not results. It's a familiar pattern that is inefficacious and futile.

[branders seine]

269. It was not a good speech--it was an *excellent* speech.

Unfortunately, it was used to deliver a terrible set of insurance-industry-wet-dream policy ideas.

Given the country's economy, the public mood, and the sweeping takeover of both houses and the White House by Democrats elected on a message of major, paradigm-shifting change, the medical insurance industry had every reason to believe their very existence was in question. Now they know that the worst that can happen is they will be handed tens of millions of new government-funded customers *in perpetuity*, a few vague regulations with zero enforcement and loopholes big enough to drive a fleet of armored cars full of cash through, and no change at all to their stranglehold on the demand end of the illness and death industry's pipeline -- *in perpetuity*.

Really, truly, sweepingly awful. United Healthcare themselves wouldn't have the chutzpah to craft such a massive surrender of the momentum for change.

[lib_wit_it]

275. You seem to be appeased by measures meant to appease the right and those that won't adequately

address the concerns of the left with which you do seem to identify.

"I feel that he can get the public option passed but he spelled out exactly what the public option was and insured us that it was not 'government taking over your healthcare'."

Well, it does not reassure many of us, who would prefer government did take over our health care. Obviously those who are screaming, "Keep your hands off my Medicare," don't object to government-run health care, even if they're ignorant enough to have been convinced by the evil insurance empire that they do.

"My 2 biggest concerns are always the pre-existing conditions and high costs of coverage - to be honest they rank way higher than the public option (although PO is still very important)."

The industry is already too rich and powerful for any lesser measure than a quickly available, robust public option to institute any true, lasting change. It looks likely that the bill, if any, that gets passed will have negligible effect on the high cost that's already crushing us. And no one said they couldn't charge even more to cover those with preexisting conditions.

[tkauf0310]

277. more of same

While I wish we could get exactly the single payer system I would like, I know things get done in pieces. I was not in favor of a piecemeal approach, i now feel we win if we can get anything passed. Once the brain washed people see the sky has not fallen, we can pass more and more pieces till we get the health care the rest of the civilized world enjoys. the simple fact is, we aren't just having to work around republicans, but democrats elected in conservative districts. Get what we can get, and keep going back until we have it all.

[Quasimodem]

279. Time to vote with our bodies.

Perhaps it is only due to the contrast with their prologue, but I am always impressed with President Obama’s speeches. That is a given.

I have been both wonderfully excited by President Obama’s possibilities, and terribly let down by some of the choices he has made in the last eight months. However, this is not the time to be airing those disappointments. This is not the time to attack the only leader capable of bringing us — the last developed nation without a competent health system — under the protection of universal health care.

Anyone who thinks that now, when the shape of our promised health care reform is being negotiated, is the time to air any disapproval with President Obama’s past performance, is crazier than the birthers.

Whether you are a street-level demonstrator or a keystroke supporter, neither should be denigrating the other.

Tomorrow Tea Party Patriots, those same yahoos who disrupted town hall meetings this summer, will be marching on Washington to rail against what they term the “out-of-control spending” of Obama Care. And, undoubtedly, the media will cover this as a tremendous outpouring of popular sentiment, even if only seventeen tea-baggers show up.

Hopefully, somewhere, this is inspiring progressives to plan some sort of demonstration in support of universal coverage — the public option, or even single-payer — and more than the usual number of demonstrators will come out. The mainstream media will try to ignore this demonstration, as they have others in the past. The only way to get seen is for the demonstration(s) to be too large and too widespread to be overlooked.

Just because you believe in President Obama’s good intentions, does not mean you should sit quietly at home, waiting for him to deliver on his promises. You know the strength of the forces arrayed against him. Get out and show your support, so that the Tea Party Patriots are not the only public voices being heard.

Alternately, if you question the sincerity of President Obama’s promises, now is the time to hold his feet to the fire, by showing the true extent of your desire for this change, and what support he risks losing if he fails to deliver.

For whichever attitude, and whatever style of protester one is, now is the time for us to show our support. We must choose a day to protest, electronically post our messages of support for the health care package we endorse, and then go out to join the street protesters.

We must show our support electronically and in real life, and not permit our demands to be overlooked or ignored.

[progressivebydesign]

281. My Mom and I, both being DUers since the beginning, came to that point this morning.

We discussed that there are some people here that will never be happy.

I'm THRILLED with my President, and proud of the Democrats for all they've accomplished without the benefit of a FREE media. Frankly, I think the mix of phonies and trolls here doesn't help matters.

[dysfunctional press]

283. well- there's always been more than one flavour of kool-aid available...

people drink it on both sides of the aisle.

[azmouse]

296. How about we drop the 'koolaid' references to our fellow Democrats and progressives?

It is only flamebait, and doesn't contribute to open and honest discussions.

[dysfunctional press]

297. nope.

[W_HAMILTON]

284. And I've come to the conclusion...

...that if you dare speak about how you are upset about something the president does, you are labeled a traitor, or have some snarky reply (title only with no actual comments), or they label you a Freeper, etc.

That's pretty sad.

Blind support for someone is characteristic of those moronic Republicans.

I grow tired of listening to people heckle others here for not completely supporting every single thing the president does.

[ChiciB1]

305. I KNOW The Feeling Well... W_HAMILTON! Descent Doesn't Mean Desertion, But Many

would have others believe this to be so! There ARE certain times that Reality DOES Bite!

Obama may be working very hard, and I may have to eat crow before it's said and done, but you know what? I actually would rather "eat that crow" than to be correct in my assumptions now!!

So FWIW, my problems is with what I'm seeing NOW, and what it appears to me NOW! And to simply keep saying "give him time" doesn't works so well with me. I just wonder if given more time, things won't get any better! I draw these assumptions from what I've seen so far!

But it does not mean I want FAILURE, I just want JUSTICE for "we the people!"

[Cha]

286. Thanks for your view, Lynne..

It's encouraging and inspiring to me that are many people out there(folks I talk to at the Co-op) and here in cyberville who share this overall view of our new President.

:patriot::patriot: And, I'm really happy that Biden is VP and Hillary is SOS..B0OYA!

[opihimoimoi]

290. Yup, but we are also armchair Bandits who come to lift/steal ideas and notions

our opinions too....

because every once in awhile...a good idea emerges

[yellerpup]

299. Well said.

K&R! :dem: :dem: :dem:

[Capn Sunshine]

300. Sing it, sister!

there's a whole group of people who live for the gloom. Without it, they don't feel alive I guess. For whatever reason, when things are bleakest, they seem the most content. It would be natural I guess in these past eight years that they would gravitate to a Democratic web site.

There's a whole bunch of them who are disappointed because the economy didn't fall into oblivion and society hasn't collapsed. But they still have the degradation of the environment and peak oil to keep them happy.

You'll get a lot of argument about the depth and breadth of how we're fixing things, but I really couldn't agree more strongly with the spirit of your post.

[Hidden Stillness]

302. Try Listening to Them--You Might Learn Something

This OP is so overwrought and incoherent that it is hard to know where to start, but you give some clues about how little you actually care about the issue by first claiming that "Obama has taken us further with healthcare than any other president ever" (what? further than Johnson and Medicare/Medicaid? further than FDR and Social Security, the GI Bill, the VA? further even than Clinton, who signed into law S-CHIP?)--what does that mean? Then you end with "My 2 biggest concerns are always the pre-existing conditions and high costs of coverage - to be honest they rank way higher than the public option (although PO is still very important)," showing that you do not understand the problems that people are suffering at all, or what will be necessary to bring any costs down.

Obama started this whole process by having secret meetings with insurance and pharmaceutical industry executives, and before anyone knew what was happening, had promised them no negotiations on prices, and no price controls; the health care industry lobbyist Tom Daschle is organizing the "selling" and passage of the bill for the White House. Even good Democrats in Congress, such as Sherrod Brown in the Senate and Marcy Kaptur in the House, are now using the bizarre phrase "health insurance reform," which neither ever did before--who is pressuring them?

I live in a State, Michigan, where our unemployment rate was just adjusted up, for July, to 22.8%, near-Depression levels, by the Dept. of Energy, Labor and Economic Growth, yet I recently had to read the title of a DU thread, that was like "It's Official: Obama Saves Economy from Worst Slump Since the 1930s--Wall St. Journal," something like that, for bailing out investment brokers who are still near insolvent. What the hell do some of you people even know about the unemployment rates of some parts of this country?

Some 80% of all Amercians, poll after poll, show they favor a Medicare style plan, and all the Obama "D"LC has proposed is a forced, unregulated commercial insurance buy, like auto insurance. Do you not know the difference between "stupid whiners" and people who are telling you that something is wrong?

[HughMoran]

303. I agree. (now I expect rhett o rick to degrade me with a personal insult just for agreeing)

:)

[rhett o rick]

321. I never insult. Well, almost never. I respectfully disagree with this post.

This appears to me to be a "lets settle" post when we are still negotiating. What the OP says sounds sweet but w/o a public option the plan will not do what she is asking. Please see this post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8647330&mesg_id=8647330

If you force people to buy insurance, it will be very unpopular. And if you don't provide them with an inexpensive option, it will be disaster.

Now, wasn't that civil?

[HughMoran]

327. Sure

...and I hope it wasn't implied that we can live without a public option - we can't.

[rhett o rick]

331. My sentiments exactly. I did read that in the OP. If I am wrong, I appologize for my over reaction.

We can't settle for anything less than a strong public option.

[HughMoran]

338. I agree

Listening to ass-holes like Ben Nelson today doesn't give me much hope. I at least "see" a public option, but with the evil "trigger" that I told President Obama not to fall for.

[ut oh]

306. I agree to a point...

Using your analogy... If Obama managed to give everyone a car, when starvation was the issue, then no, that's not the right thing to do despite the 'new ride'. Now if everyone's getting a Ford and people are crying cause it's not a chevy... well then that's a little silly since it's 'free'.

I think Obama is trying to push us in the right direction, but unfortunately, it is not all up to him. Quite frankly I've been significantly more disappointed with our congressional Dems (Senate included), than I am with Obama.

I didn't catch all of the speech, but was generally happy with what I heard.

Part of the dilema is we do have to work with those who do not want progress. I not only speak of the GOP, but also the Blue Dog Dem who apparently think Republican light is what Dem's should be. What that leaves us with is a non solid majority due to the Blue Dog trying to be Repubs...

I'm quite honestly not sure how to see the glass right now as it's still very dirty and make the 'quantity' hard to see. That does not mean I'm gonna go all negative on our President... but it does mean, I still have a wary eye...

We (the people) have spent the last 8+ years essentially getting trashed by the Gov't and by the GOP and some of us are still realing from the blows. We are going to be very causious going into the next fight, because sometimes it seems our allies are not our allies and we could get 'cold cocked'.

DU does have a wide range on opinions (even ignoring the freeper trolls who have seemed to step up their game here). This is a common problem about progressives in general and part of the reason we don't do as well as the authoritarian GOP. We allow dissenting views and that can slow progress as well as create confusion within our own block. This is a 2-edged sword. It has the potential for more great ideas, but also means there's more infighting, leading to less cohesive leadership...

"We're Political Armchair Quarterbacks who think we can do it better than any democrat elected to office." Again, agree/disagree: There are many people on this board who are very politically active, so don't really fit the profile of armchair qtrback, cause they are trying to do their part beyond just posting on these forums. And there are others who are more of the armchair variety (myself included for the most part). Generalization are going to hurt the points you're making, cause people are going to focus on it being 'wrong' (in some people's eyes).


Don't get all bent up on this! The GOP still has to rely on lie, deception, and double-speak to get their people to follow, while we rely on truth. Truth WILL prevail in the end as it has for many other issues America has encountered (slavery, civil right, women's right to vote, etc.) Sometime it does not move as fast as we'd like, but it does triumph in the end...

Would I like this to be resolved? Most definitely! But bashing peeps on DU isn't going to resolve anything and will only further any resentment members are feeling about each other due to differing viewpoints. So maybe we ask questions of those who think the Dems can do no right? What will make it right? What have 'you' done to further your opinions beyond posting here, or complaining about DU memebers? What can we do to convince those in office?

Starting a dialogue will go a lot further than posting a rant. You're just likely to turn off those very same people you wish to open up...

[Swamp Rat]

309. Amen, sister!

:hug:

[politicasista]

310. Kick

Haven't always agreed with the OP, but this post reads sanity.

I am proud of our President. He isn't perfect and knows that. He knows he isn't going to wave a magic wand and poof!, everything is ok again.

As another supporter said the other day (paraphrasing), he didn't have to take the health care issue on, but this shows that he is really serious about acomplishing this once and for all. aka Pragmatism. Especially with Uncle Ted gone. :(

I am proud of my vote for Obama and will gladly vote for him in 2012. :patriot:

[Jakes Progress]

313. Didn't take me long

to find out that - Surprise!!!! - DU has all kinds of folks.

Yep. There are some very discontented people who like to be upset.

And there are just as many who wouldn't mine if their candidate killed puppies in their living room.

Between that are people who react to news and event on a news and events forum. There is a continuum running from blind absolute devotion to freeper trolls.

Then there are those who bemoan the fact that everyone who doesn't agree with their thin line on the continuum is wrong. Most of this is a desire to be "more special" or a super-duper-extra-good-buddy-of-Obama.

Well, I liked the speech too. I worked very hard to get him elected. If we don't do better than we are with this, the job of getting him elected next time will be twice as hard with half the volunteers.

If that makes me a grumpy old poot with a half-empty glass, so be it. If you think that cheering as we circle the drain will help, at least you can gaze at your half full glass.

[dionysus]

315. yay! old school DUers rule

:woohoo:

[rhett o rick]

322. I understand your post to say you are willing to settle for a plan w/o a public option.

Did I misunderstand? If so, I apologize but then tell me what specific whining are you referring to?

I will not settle for a plan w/o a public option that forces the insurance companies to compete. Anything less will be bastardized by the insurance companies. If we miss this opportunity, we may not see it again in this decade.

Please see this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8647330&mesg_id=8647330

[Orwellian_Ghost]

334. Forget the speech

and focus on the reality of policy. There is nothing in Obama's past or present that indicates the policy will even mildly serve the needs of those who so badly need it.

The glass isn't even nearly half-filled to use such a tired cliche' it is in fact full to the brim with campaign contributions from insurance companies. You have to be completely unwilling to pause and honestly examine how this system works and who it works for to ignore that simple fact.

[louis c]

339. Here, Here, I agree (NT)

kick and rec

[JitterbugPerfume]

343. Lynne. you are once again

the voice of sanity in the assylum

[Odin2005]

350. Many posters are utopians that won't happy until everything is perfect.

They are secular End-Timers awaiting "The Revolution" so they can liquidate all the evil-doers. They are also victims of out consumerist "on-demand" society, they want to get want they want RIGHT FUCKING NOW and feel "betrayed" if they don't get it ASAP.

I am amused when they throw a fit and threaten to vote Nader. They are a tiny minority in the Democratic Party, the youth vote and the minorities vote, which put Obama over the top last fall, are his real power base.

[rhett o rick]

365. So that is all well and good, but do you agree we can't wait 10 years for decent health care?

Or, like the OP, you are willing to be "pointed in the right direction", and let thousands continue to die, hoping we can get more in the future.

[Odin2005]

366. Getting Medicare through took 5 years.

Get off your rear and start working on primarying some Blue Dogs.

[anonymous171]

357. He hasn't taken us anywere. His rhetoric is promising but I need results. The campaign is over.

[Time for change]

361. You say that Obama spelled out exactly what the public option is

Do you recall that he said that it would probably apply to about 5% of the American people? Do you think that's enough to qualify as meaningful health care reform?

[Number23]

369. I can't rec it. But I can DAMN sure kick it!

Preach it, sister!!! :thumbsup: