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mystieus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 01:08 PM
Original message
Progressives Begin To Wobble On Public Option Commitment
Source: talkingpointsmemo.com



Progressives Begin to Wobble on Public Option Commitment
Brian Beutler | September 8, 2009, 12:27PM

At least four signatories to a July letter drawing a line in the sand over a public option have suggested that they may be willing to support a compromise proposal to "trigger" a public option only as a fallback if other reforms don't produce results on their own.

"Any bill that does not provide, at a minimum, for a public option with reimbursement rates based on Medicare rates...is unacceptable," the letter read. "We simply cannot vote for such a proposal."

Among the signatories were Reps. Mike Capuano (D-MA) Jim McGovern (D-MA), Bill Pascrell, and Sam Farr (D-CA), who now say that definitions of "public option" may vary.

"That's why we used words like 'robust' -- because it's in the eye of the beholder," Capuano told Roll Call. "We'll make our independent judgments."

"It depends on how strong that trigger is," Farr added. "The only way I could see it getting progressive votes is by making sure the public option is strong and goes into operation."

"This is a way to get a bill," Pascrell said of triggers. "I believe it's worth listening to because I want legislation that is going to, in some shape or form, expand coverage and bring down the cost of health care."

And McGovern noted "there may be a variety of ways of getting there than the one I originally formulated in my mind."

Four votes out of about sixty signatories isn't a ton--but it's not nothing either, especially as the trigger mechanism compromise seems to be gaining traction in the White House and Senate. McGovern is a pretty big hitter, for instance, and one House Democratic aide tells me his position "is where a lot of people are."

The shakiness, such as it is, comes at a time when Blue Dog Democrats are voicing stronger objections to House legislation than they were earlier this summer. Rep. Mike Ross (D-AR), leader of the Blue Dog's health care task force, has gone on the record with constituents saying he'll oppose any bill with a public option, and The Hill reports that up to 23 House Blue Dogs are suggesting they'll oppose the bill from the right.

Why would progressives wobble? There are a number of explanations. Perhaps chief among them is the fact that party leaders believe failure to pass a bill would be a political disaster--and that, hailing from safe districts, progressives can afford to vote against their constituents more easily than Blue Dogs can. Separately, many, like Capuano, believe that a half-loaf is better than no loaf at all--that spending hundreds of billions of dollars to expand health care access to the poor and uninsured, even in an inefficient way that redounds to the benefit of health insurers, is a step in the right direction.

That said, a some key progressives--notably Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D-IL), who heads the Congressional Progressive Caucus' health care task force--still say they can't vote for a bill unless it creates a public option with no triggers. If House leaders decide that compromising further on the public option is the way to go, they'll have to chip away significantly at the progressive bloc. Assuming no GOP support, Democrats can only afford to lose 38 votes within their caucus, which means they'll need a lot more than four defectors to get a bill through.

Read more: http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/09/progressives-begin-to-wobble-on-public-option-commitment.php?ref=fpa
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. That's The Fightin' Congressional Dems We've Grown To Love
Until we can bring ourselves to vote for alternatives - including a third party - this is what we'll get.
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Mystayya Donating Member (324 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Sad but true- I get more fed up with them by the day.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. I'm so tired, so disheartened. I almost don't care because caring would
take more energy than I have today.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wealthy men with govt.-sponsored lifetime healthcare telling us what we need. nt
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. I'm not familiar with any of those four Congressmen. NT
NT
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
35. Me either. Is it a stealth attack by the DLC? What's their "Liberal" cred? n/t
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
5. I hereby promise to send money to any Democratic primary challenger that
runs against an incumbent Bu*h Dog DINOrat that voted against a public option.

It doesn't matter what state they are from; their actions in this situation affect me directly as a US citizen. If they are not wise enough to see that without a public option, no significant productive change will occur in the overall realm of health coverage, they are therefore too ignorant or too corrupt to serve as a Democratic legislator anywhere.
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daa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Agreed nt
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BadgerKid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
28. Count me in! n/t
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #5
39. And when the party chokes off any Democratic
challengers, what will you do then? Seriously, that's not a snark, it's an actual question.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #5
41. How about you throw a little green at Jan Schakowsky!
For drawing the line in first place...

She is the leader of the Progressive Caucus
and an outspoken champion of the people.
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
7. I'd say Obama is putting the pressure on them instead of the other way
around. If these progressives would just stand strong, Obama would have to insist on the public option. Nothing is better than something which only further enriches and caters to the health industry, raises the burden on our economy and fines people for not getting insurance as Baucus wants. He turns my stomach. Obama has screwed this up because he has never really wanted the public option; he just loves those corporations.
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Baltoman991 Donating Member (869 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Bullshit!!!
Obama wants the fucking public option. He's always wanted it.

But once again, the agenda is clear. If Democrats in Congress cave it's because Obama is pressuring them to cave.

Complete and utter bullshit from you and the rest of the haters.

Sit there on your ass and continue to give Congress a free pass.
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I agree....Obama wants a public option
What worries me is that he was also against an individual mandate but now is open to it. If he caved on that, will he cave on the public option too? I hope not.

All I know is that "no public option + individual mandate = Republicans win in 2010 and 2012."
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Baltoman991 Donating Member (869 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I don't put
a lot of stock when I hear "he's open" to different things because to me, he's saying what he's been saying from day one, he's open to listening to all ideas but in the end, I think this mandate to will fall.

That's my take on it anway.
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I'm not so sure it will fail
I read in Rolling Stone that most of the bills in Congress include an individual mandate. I hope the individual mandate does fail but I think it will be included in the final bill. I'll be pretty pissed too.
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dr_aswan Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. He uses "firm" words like "favovs", "prefers" & "would listen"
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Iowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Wrong...
Obama has been playing games with the public option:

--Obama himself referring to the public option as only a "sliver" of the entire bill
--Obama switching terms from "health-care reform" to "health insurance reform" in speeches
--Obama killing the public option with faint praise by saying things like he won't "oppose" it
--Rahm Emanuel declaring outright that the public option is expendable
--Sebelius forgetting the administration's public option line du jour and saying it can be excised
--And (perhaps most importantly) Obama refusing to allow single-payer a place at the table, if for no other reason than to use it as a chip to get a strong public option

One simply cannot rely on what Obama says literally. He's a smooth talker with a history of saying one thing and doing another. In this particular case, it takes very little reading between the lines to see that Obama has done everything in his power to kill the public option while simultaneously claiming to support it in the very weakest terms imaginable. Anyone who has lived a long life can see through this very easily. And using one's experience in life to sort through all the bullshit to identify ulterior motives, dishonesty, and manipulation isn't being a "hater" (to use your words) - it's being smart, it's being a survivor, and it's being a good citizen.

Here's the thing... with a very few exceptions, you can usually tell a politician is lying by watching their lips. If their lips move, they are probably lying. That's just the way it is. If you really want to know what they're up to, you need to do two things: 1) follow the money, and 2) read between the lines and pay attention to their actions - not their words.
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joeycola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. If Obama wants the public opt. he needs to fight more for it instead of being
wishy washy!
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. You do not need to curse me. I am no hater; I am a person who is
over 65 and is on Medicare. This fight is not about me for me. It is about what is right for the American people. As #14 says Obama has shown no desire to have a public option. He has barely sanctioned it. My only conclusion can be that he doesn't really want to have it. He wants a bill he can sign which makes no one unhappy except the progressives. As Rahm has said often, we have no place else to go. And do not call me a hater. I worked for Obama, gave him money and voted enthusiastically for him. Was he my first choice? No! But once he won the primary, I was very supportive. He has done nothing but disappoint me. This is a Waterloo moment for me and many others. Healthcare reform is essential for the people who are going bankrupt and for those who have no insurance and for those who have it and are screwed by the own insurance companies. This has nothing to do with Obama personally; it is his policies I dislike. I knew he was no liberal although DUers were convinced he was. All one had to do was look at his short voting record to know better. But he certainly talked a good game--CHANGE I believe was the key note!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Blasphemer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Exactly! Why isn't the pressure coming down on the blue dogs????? nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
10. These are "progressives" . . . are you sure?
Obama has a choice . . . he can be another FDR and move everyone onto MEDICARE FOR ALL --

it's up and running and ready to go -- there's no reinventing the wheel involved --

AND MAKE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY A WINNER FOR THE NEXT TWO DECADES!!!


OR . . . Obama can give the Repugs and thugs and DLC what they want and be a one term

president and further impower the GOP thugs who will take over again ????



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Crowman2009 Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
15. Well if they don't want a public option, then they weren't progressives in the first place.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
17. Easy for them to say- their healthcare is already paid for. By us. n/t
n/t
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Piewhacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
18. Wobbling? I don't see no stinkin 'wobbling'. Its simple. Public Option. NOW, stupid. There.
No progressive is "wobbling". Anyone see any "wobbling" here in DU? Nope.
No wobbling here. Go check the whack-wing channel (if ya dare), I'm sure
there are some serious mental wobblers there. Oh yea, pretty sure.

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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
19. Kiss your jobs goodbye fellows, we know who you are, and we won't forget. nt
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. You can't scare them. They are incumbents and the Democratic Party will back them all the way.
Removing a Democratic incumbent via a primary is a hollow dream.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Did I annoy you somehow?
Why do you care about correcting my "error"?
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Sorry if I came across as annoyed. I tried not to sound annoyed.
Seriously, I am not pointing out your error but trying to point out that we have a very serious problem that is totally ignored. I completely support writing letters, emails and calling, but I realize that they are not threats. Incumbents essentially can't be replaced in a primary, unless we come up with something new. The Party will totally back an incumbent as will the big money backers. Also, it is very hard to find a politician willing to risk their carrier by bucking the Party. I think there are ways of "primarying" an incumbent but it would take an organization outside the Party like moveon.org or PDA, to do it.

I was teasing with the non-apology in the subject, but I do apologize for acting annoyed.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Very well.
Edited on Tue Sep-08-09 06:24 PM by bemildred
I don't deny the problem you point out, but there is an answer, you have to get votes to win elections, and grass roots organization and turnout is the one and only answer that can defeat money in politics. They can have all the money and backing they want, and we can still throw their asses out. When they fear us more than they fear the party hacks, that is when we will get paid attention to, and not before.

Edit: and it HAS been done.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Please forgive me for pushing this discussion further. I argue to learn.
If you have a point, I will gladly concede. First, I fully believe it has been done but is very, very rare. Second, I completely agree that a grass roots organization can apply serious pressure to counteract the millions of dollars in advertising put forth by big money that will support an incumbent. However, the first problem to overcome is finding a progressive willing to oppose the incumbent. They will know that the Party won't be happy with them.
Next, you need a grass roots ORGANIZATION outside the Democratic Party. Who is that going to be? Will you start such an organization? Not an easy task.

I am hammering on this because until we have a mechanism to oust incumbents we have no leverage.

Peace
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I'm not saying it is easy.
The current party organization is set up to prevent exactly that. I'm just saying it is possible. We do have a mechanism, in the Democratic Party primary process, a reform we won in 1968 against the will of the party hacks. Most political reforms were won against the will of the party hacks, and there are plenty in the history of the US. We just need to start using them for our own purposes, and stop letting them be used against us.

You are quite civil, I have no problem with you. I just don't see why you would want to discourage attempts at democratic reform.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Incumbents can be replaced in a primary. Just ask Cynthia McKinney
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #21
40. Bingo!
The only thing that will scare them is the threat of a third-party challenger.
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LatteLibertine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
25. Part of me wishes
Edited on Tue Sep-08-09 06:22 PM by LatteLibertine
Van Jones was the one in the White House. He'd tell these fools what time it is.

President Obama is often too nice and too diplomatic.

Of course there is always the chance the whole thing was bullshit from the beginning and they are just being good little puppets to the lobbyists.

Their only major "reform" may be to mandate people buy health insurance, ie lots of new customers for the insurance companies.
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
31. Surprise, surprise, surprise!!
Not.

Freakin' wimps.

I fear that I have cast my last ballot in this country...
Unless we can get a party that stands for PEOPLE - ordinary working people.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
32. Ralph Nader was right.
Will anyone else admit it now?
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #32
38. Ralph apparently gets more from a dime than I can
Even if both parties have the same goals the competence and methodology are worth more than a buck to me, much less a dime.

Nader is hyperbolic not accurate.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. When we thought we could orchestrate a substantive change in power and policy in Washington
by voting in Democrats, I think we were had.

The real power interests running the show have not changed.

I'm disillusioned.
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New Dawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
34. Forcing people to buy a product from a private company is fascist economics.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
36. The trigger blew off its hinges years ago. We are in desperate straits
from giving private insurers so many chances already to prove that they can do better.

The private sector has had over ten years since the last time they stomped out national health insurance to show us how effective they can be, and where are we now?

Millions more uninsured, millions more bankrupt from medical bills.

The triggers have been blown off their hinges. Been there, done that, got the huge deductible to prove it.
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JeanGrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 04:16 AM
Response to Original message
37. NOT THIS PROGRESSIVE. Although I must admit, in
my heart I knew we'd never get it. Because, you see, deep down, all politicians are alike. They look after themselves, first and foremost.
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
42. Pandering corporate shills
It's not that they lack spine it's that they are doing the bidding of their paymasters.
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