I get tired of the Scarlet letter "Racist" that gets put on people!

[Carl21014]

So many times I hear a discussion that goes like this, " he said blank which proves he's a racist!" It's a gotcha that means he's done as a person, everything about him is bad and ugly now, he must be driven out of our world with tar and feather!

The problem I have with this type of thinking is to varying degrees we are all racists. We all have influences from the racist society we grew up in that effects the way we think or feel. Things that make up who we are as people.

In 1970 I was five years old and my family moved from Pittsburgh to Torrence, CA. On the way my parents dropped me and my siblings off at our aunts in Fort Wayne, IN while they were house hunting. While we were there we went to a public pool with my sister and three bothers. We were ages 5, 7, 9, 10, and 11, and no adult was with us. The pool was very crowded and with the exception of one other white girl we were the only whites there. That other white girl that we didn't know got into a fight and next thing we know people are yelling "get a honkey, get a honkey". We all ran home terrified.

When we get to Torrence we spend 3 years where my older brothers are constantly in fights with blacks at school. My oldest brother was between 11-14 during the three years we were there and it wasn't uncommon for a car filled with black teenagers to be waiting outside our house to beat him up if he was stupid enough to come outside.

Now I believe in alot of social ideals that don't always square with my gut instincts. I know bad things I experienced growing up are a symptom of a larger problem that needs to be changed. I have to apply reason over emotion. I know I have racist qualities ingrained from my upbringing, I have unconscious fears and hates that I consciously work to overcome, and I know I'm not alone.

I don't understand how everyone can know we are a racist society, yet no one admits they are racist. Or that we can stone people when we discover they have committed a racist act. How many people throwing stones are really without sin. How can we ever change if first we don't accept who really are? I'm not saying racist acts are acceptable, I'm just saying I've heard alot of self-righteous statements from people who claim to have never said, done, or felt anything racist ever, and I don't believe you.

I know one thing for sure that the Bible got right, "We are all sinners"

[William769]

1. As a white person who went to school in the Detroit public school system

in the late 1960's I know first hand what racism is. But then again I am older and wiser and I also know what is acceptable to say & what is not, especially on national tv or Radio.

[Carl21014]

4. I'm not defending Imus!

I agree what is said on the airwaves is appropriate to be regulated. I'm just tired of all the labeling and self righteous holier than thou comments.

I too feel older and wiser and know what is acceptable to say or not say, and I wouldn't have said what Imus said. But that doesn't mean I'm going to sum up his who worth as a human over what he said. Like I said, to varying degrees we are all racist, I consider that before I condemn a man.

[William769]

8. If you would not have said what he said then what does that say about what he said?

[Carl21014]

10. What can you say about an ugly comment?

It was ugly, it was wrong...

My point isn't to defend Imus, my point is I have never felt comfortable being better than the next guy. I'm a sinner, I know I'm a sinner, and I think alot of people over the last few days have climbed up on a box and are acting as if they have never sinned.

[William769]

12. Doesn't matter if they climbed up on their soap box or not

What he did was wrong. If I had done it I should have been treated the same way. If we have all done it at one time or another, does that make it right? Yes I know your not defending him, I gues what I am saying if you catch a holier than thou, then by all means nail him to the cross for it like they have done To Imus (I know I will).

[Joe Fields]

25. You are missing the poster's point entirely.

How many times does this person have to say that they don't defend what Imus said for you to get it? Or is that intentional on your part?

[William769]

33. Can you read?

"Yes I know your not defending him", it's right there & black & white.

[Breeze54]

13. That happens here everyday!!!

:rofl: If it isn't this topic then it will be another.
Just wait a minute or two....

There are always the "superior" types, that seem to think
their shit doesn't stink, but we all know better! ;)

[WhollyHeretic]

2. And I'm tired of people trying to excuse racist acts

Trying to overcome bigoted thoughts is one thing, I think everyone has to do that in some regard, but there is no excuse for racist speech and especially racist acts.

[Carl21014]

6. I'm not talking about excusing...

I'm talking about an understanding of the human conditions. I know it's wrong, but I also know just about every single one of us in some form or fashion is guilty. I'm saying I'm a sinner too, and I'm asking for everyone to admit they too have sinned.

[Bluerthanblue]

69. Imagine if the experience

you had at the pool as a child was NOT a 'fluke'- was not something unusual- but something accepted and condoned by society, (albeit quietly-while pretending to be so 'enlightened- If your reality was what you experienced at that pool- like you didn't belong- like you were being judged as 'unworthy' an 'outsider'- afraid of those who shouted for you to be hurt ONLY because of the color of your skin- and you might have a better understanding of what it has been like for the African American in this 'land of the free'.

You stood momentarily in the world of the oppressed. If you had been BORN into that reality, I believe you would recognize and want to call out bigotry and racism for the menace that it is.

It would be foolish to say that none of us have prejudices- we all do. But it would also be foolish to have a 'taste' of what it feels like to be treated as less than because of your skin color, and then jump from that into believing you have a true understanding of what life as an African American in the USA is all about.

It is time the blinders came off- Katrina should have blown the cover on the deep seated racisms that lives just beneath the pretty surface of 'america.'

peace,
blu

[dogday]

7. I think the OP may be referring the label of Racist

put upon DU members who while they agree what Imus did was wrong, may not agree as how to handle the situation... As far as I know, so many diverse opinions on this board, it is not surprising, and certainly if one feels like extending forgiveness while the other does not, does not give pause for anyone to start throwing the word around cause they don't altogether agree with you....

[kwassa]

3. Racism is not a scarlet letter

and just because someone says that someone else is a racist does not make it so. Sometimes it is a matter of opinion, but it is important to look at and deal with the substance of that opinion. Maybe there is no substance there, maybe there is, but it needs to be addressed.

Imus had a huge public platform on which to express his opinions, unlike most of us, and he has a history of disparaging remarks toward minorities. He was getting paid large sums of money to make these public opinions in radio markets throughout the country.

[seabeyond]

5. definition of racism. ones own ethnic stock is superior. no... not EVERYONE

is racist. i am tired of people telling me we are ALL racist. i dont believe we are all racist. i dont believe we ALL feel ur own ethnicity is superior to all others.

[Carl21014]

9. It's much more than that!

It's fear, hatred, ignorance! I don't even know that a feeling of supremacy is required. With your definition I could say and do all kinds of hateful things and as long as I didn't think I was better than the other race it would not be racism? That makes no sense.

[seabeyond]

17. you are giving your own perception of a definition. there is a reality, factual definition

of the word. you might look up bigot: an intolerant person...of religion race and politics.

[bryant69]

14. There are plenty of definitions of racism

And even within that definition you'd have to determine what is meant by superior. If by superior you mean "should run everything" than yeah, almost none of us are racist. But what if by superior you mean "better at dinner parties" or "less threatening when seen late at night?"

We all swim in racism all the time; it's unrealistic to believe it doesn't rub off from time to time.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[seabeyond]

18. i do not agree. n/t

[bryant69]

19. Well Gosh Darn. I guess I can't argue with that.

What a persuasive response.

Bryant

[seabeyond]

26. i think collectively we like to say all is racist so that those that refuse to reflect have excuse

or a lame justification for their own action without taking a personal responsibility for their attitudes. i think that to say we are all racist... to see ourselves superior in anyway to others weakens the very word and i think it is too important of an issue to make it less. it is like saying both parties lie and cheat, lessening what the republicans and bushco have done the last handful of years. justifying and excusing it. both parties are not equal in their corruption. to put it out that they are weakens what should be our outrage to what bushcos have done last handful of years and only helps to create the same of both parties in the future.

no... i do not believe all people are racists of any culture

i think what this comment also does to us as a people is make us less than what we really are. like to say the nation is going to hell, the people are fucked up, our kids are useless today, public schools are all evil .... gives us an illusion to live that is not true, making us less than what we really are, or what the situation really is. creating a hopelessness that is not even true.

it creates a collective power that is not only a false illusion, but allows a power to make the statement true. i know a lot of people of all races that do not feel themselves superior in any other way to others, ..... and those that are living in that attitude get to understand that it is theirs they create and live in it without me. i will not own something that isn't true to comfort those unable to self reflect and be the better person they are. i will honor the non racist i am and show in example how it is possible to be, honoring that part of who we are as a person with the understanding that collectively we can be a better person

this does not mean ostrich with head in the sand. i live in the very red, and limited thinking of the panhandle of texas, plenty of racists, plenty of bigots. it isn't a matter of denying that it is in our world. or that it has raised its ugly head again the last decade in acceptance.

[Breeze54]

11. You mean on DU?

Perhaps the offenders are using bigoted language? I think that's part of what you're saying.
If so, maybe the rules are the reason they are being schooled??

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

4. Content:

A thick skin is necessary to participate on this or any other discussion forum.

7. More Information:

For a detailed explanation of how we enforce these rules, please click here.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

Bigotry and Broad-Brush Smears

When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, or other highly-sensitive
personal issues, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra
care to clearly express your point of view.

Do not post messages that are bigoted against (or grossly insensitive toward) any person or group
of people based on their race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, lack of religion,
disability, physical characteristics, or region of residence.

While specific words are not automatically forbidden, members should avoid using racist,
sexist, homophobic, or otherwise bigoted terminology.

[Maddy McCall]

15. "The problem I have with this type of thinking is to varying degrees we are all racists. "

Speak for yourself. Don't speak for me.

I am NOT a racist.

[skooooo]

20. racism permeates our society....

It's affected you in some way, hasn't it?

[Joe Fields]

28. got a pair of binoculars, or would you like to borrow a pair?

[seabeyond]

31. hey you

i am right there with you. i think some need the definition of a racist. i think it is absurd to state all are racists. one might be able to argue all hold bigotry since it is a simple intolerance of politics, religion or race and intolerance is so many different degrees. but to state we are all racist absolutely weakens and excuses the behavior of those that are racists creating so much damage in our nation right now and in ways puts a stop to calling out those that practice racism. it could be said i am intolerant (bigotry) of racists. i do not allow.

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. I'm tired of people talking about racism

Strictly through personal anecdote.

Racism is systemic. We need a new vocabulary and approach that prevents the easy out of "When I was 8 years old in Anytown, USA, these were my personal experiences, and therefore we can draw these social conclusions." Or, "My grandmother was an X..., and therefore, here are the conclusions we can draw for population dynamics and macro-economic phenomena." It's a farce, akin to demonstrating scientific theorems through memoir. And it never gets us anywhere.

[ellacott]

21. Very well said

I think the word racist should be taken out of our vocabulary because it is so misused.

[Carl21014]

22. I'm not looking for an out!

I'm saying I'm part of a racist society, I grew up in it and it still exists all around me. To say I'm unaffected by it is an exercise of denial IMO. I prefer to self evaluate who I am and strive to be better, rather than to deny, and pretend.

As for personal experience being a farce, I wasn't speaking about how my anecdote affected the whole nation, I was speaking to how it affected me. Running from a mob at age five leaves an impression on a person.

[Karenina]

47. Na, Du...

I was a bit put off by your OP, but having read your expansions of your mindset, I certainly trust your instincts FAR MORE than most. Don't be afraid of the "label." When you can comfortably say, 'Hell yeah, I was born and bred in a racist society. I realize it and am working on it!' NOBODY can touch you. Only YOU know what's in your heart.

We don't have specific language to deal with the pustule of racism in American society. It's THIS or it's THAT. It is a bigger taboo to point it out than to commit the offenses, effectively stifling ANY coherent discussion or exchange.

If I'm walking alone on the street in my European neighborhood, I will walk THROUGH a group of young men be they Turkish, African or even tatooed whites with shaved heads without a drop of adrenaline. In other areas I'd cross the street. Is that "racism?" "prejudice?" "bias?" or street smarts?

[Breeze54]

51. You make a lot of sense.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Karenina]

54. INDEED, he does.

And his honesty is MUCH MORE REAL than the many posts urging him to "check himself" from people who CLEARLY have yet to do so.

[Joe Fields]

29. One's personal experiences ARE relevent, when discussing such issues.

It is difficult to separate them.

[alcibiades_mystery]

32. They tend to obfuscate more than they enlighten

At the very least, the fact that the turn to personal experience is the overwhelmingly common trope in denying the continued effects of race is telling. Paradoxically, it demonstrates that the turn to personal experience itself is not at all personal, but a cultural effect.

[Breeze54]

66. All politics is local!

It's very human to relate to what YOU know and have experienced!

To pontificate on others experiences is baloney!

We all relate to each other through our own experiences.

That's how we try to connect to others and what connects us to each other, isn't it? :shrug:

We are all human...

[wellst0nev0ter]

23. For That Matter, I Have Memories Of Going To School In North Dakota

Only black kid in the entire school, being chased home a lot of days be white boys. I guess that kinda, sorta excuses all racist thought I have against whites, right? I mean, even Chris Rock admits that he can never be comfortable again if he's the only black in a room full of whites, due to his childhood, but he can be forgiven.

[Carl21014]

27. I didn't say excuse...

But I would expect and understand that you would have those thoughts. I believe we are a product of our society, and we live in a screwed up one. I also think we will have a better chance of improving it if we spend less time ostracizing people for their failings and more time working out problems and being a little more understanding.

[bliss_eternal]

43. Change doesn't happen in a vacuum.

People have to confront the problems and issues in order to change. How exactly is that supposed to happen if people can't be called on the language, behavior and actions to begin with?

[Neshanic]

24. Yes we are all unPC sinners, until the "Swaggert moment" that fellow PCers here will guide you to.

[MedleyMisty]

30. I agree

But in my perception, it's a bit different. I really have not seen anyone here acting like they have never had a racist thought, except for people apologizing for Imus. You know, the "I'm not a racist, but..." comments.

So yeah, from behind these eyes it's not so much that some people act as if they are completely free of racism. It's more that a lot of people refuse to look inside and see what attitudes they have internalized while growing up in a racist society.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. Here's a crazy idea.

If people don't want to be called racists, stop being a racist.

[MLFerrell]

39. "Here's a crazy idea...stop being a racist.

Wow, you KOOK you! You librul, P.C. thug! How DARE you deny we white folk our Gawd-givun RIGHT to hate all kinds of colored folk! Why we oughtta string you up for being a TRAITOR to your PEOPLE. And FOR HATIN' AMERICA!!!

For the humor-challenged:

:sarcasm:

[Madspirit]

68. Right On Bornagin....n/t

[Kickin_Donkey]

35. I'm tired of people apologizing for racists ...

which is essentially what you're doing, protests aside. If you say racist things, you're a racist. Don Imus is a racist. What don't you get about that?

One of the greatest feats of American society in the last half of the 20th century is the widespread repudiation of public racism. Scarlet letter? That's called progress. Otherwise it would still be 1950 in terms of race.

Sorry, my sympathy lies with the victims of racism, not the racists who wear a "scarlet letter."

[autorank]

36. The operative phrase is "I don't understand."

"I don't understand how everyone can know we are a racist society, yet no one admits they are racist. Or that we can stone people when we discover they have committed a racist act. How many people throwing stones are really without sin. How can we ever change if first we don't accept who really are? I'm not saying racist acts are acceptable, I'm just saying I've heard a lot of self-righteous statements from people who claim to have never said, done, or felt anything racist ever, and I don't believe you."

Context is always important. When an unambiguous racist is outed, without any doubt, a history of racist remarks and a side kick who is much, much worse; when that happens, a post like this is bound to show up.

Congratulations you're right on time. But you're right, you don't understand.

This is so typical.

[intheflow]

A woman in my church called me up last night.

(I should start by mentioning I'm a minister in Mississippi.)

Anyway, this woman, who had grown up in Mississippi, called me about something another church member, who has recently moved to Mississippi, had said to her that day.

"She told me," Woman No. 1 said indignantly, "that she'd never seen so many black people in her whole life! Can you believe how racist that is?"

I had to explain to her that Woman No. 2 had just moved from an overwhelmingly rural, overwhelmingly white area of the country. Stating that she'd never been exposed to a large black population does not make her inherently racist, she was just stating a fact. I asked if Woman No. 2 had said anything derogatory about people of color, or gave any indication that she had a problem with being around so many people of color. Woman No. 1 admitted she hadn't. Meanwhile, I had had a conversation earlier in the week with Woman No. 1 where she admitted to a mortal fear of two or more black men walking down any given street where she might also be walking.

We are all bound to see racism (or not) through our own lenses. It's a matter of educating people about the differences between racism, prejudice, white privilege, and "color blindness" that will truly be what changes and heals our sick society. It's just taking oh-so-long for that education to seep into the national consciousness. :(

[intheflow]

37. Self-delete

I accidentally posted the same response twice.

[MLFerrell]

38. "I get tired of the Scarlet letter "Racist" that gets put on people!"

Don't make racist remarks, or commit racist actions, and the appellation will not be applied to you.

It sounds to me like you have some racist tendencies. Everyone in this country, black, white, Asian, Native American, etc. IS a little bit racist. That doesn't mean that you should use isolated incidents from your youth to disparage a whole class of people, and that is precisely what you have done.

A broad brush of ill-will is NEVER appropriate, not even with Republicans. And ESPECIALLY not when the target of your derision are members of an ethnic or religious group. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[jeffrey_X]

40. I don't hear people who have zero tolerance for racism make racist comments

If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Is this extreme?

Probably, but things aren't going to improve if there is not zero tolerance regarding racism. I know I've affected people differently because of my zero tolerance.

[nini]

53. I think he's trying to be part of the solution by admitting his own weaknesses

(at least that's how I see it)


I think it's a good thing someone admits a life experience may affect they way they respond to things. To admit it is to recognize they know it's not a good thing. At the very least he sounds willing to work on himself and let go of a childhood trauma.

He admitted he needs to work on that.

[Karenina]

63. And he's MUCH MORE HONEST

than those taking potshots at him.

Zero tolerance? WHO are we talking about? Anybody got a problem with Carl? I got me my cast iron dabei. :spank: BRING IT ON. I got no problem with Carl. He's being REAL.

Zero tolerance? Horses' patoots! It's not my mission to reprogram an octagenarian who makes racist references. I tolerate it with NO PAIN once they've made an exception for ME. It doesn't even faze me if they say, Well, you're not like "them." I've already cracked a big hole in the wall.

[Breeze54]

67. Exactly!

;)

[greiner3]

41. OOPS

[kiahzero]

42. I was just about to respond to what you wrote...

Did you change your mind about saying it (in which case I won't bother responding), or something else?

[seabeyond]

44. except i agreed with your post. i thought it excellent. n/t

[nini]

45. First of all it's TorrAnce.

Then I must wonder what part of Torrance you lived in was a primarily white city in the 70s and now has a heavy Asian population. Back in the days you speak of realtors were pushing Black families to the Del Amo section of north Carson. There were very few Black families in Torrance then with the exception of the area just west of Carson known as T-flats which was primarily Mexican.

I went to a multi ethnic high school in the 70s. There were occasional fights yes, but all in all we got along. Those people that were always in fights were for reasons beyond just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I wonder why your brothers were targeted to the extent you say they were. It sucks that was your experience but to fear all Black folks for those assholes is what the problem is. Has every white person you ever met perfect? No.. you know why? Because no race has the market on assholes - that's a human trait not a race trait. You are honest in you see in affects your reactions to situations and that is to be commended as you try to come to grips with it.


Yes, we see race in each other - it's hard not to. It's how we treat someone because of that race that is the issue. We need to treat a person of any race other than our own as a human being first. If they prove themselves to be an asshole it's ok to not like them, it's not liking them or fearing them simply because of that difference is what we have to overcome.

[dsc]

48. a multi ethnic school is way different from a school in which one

race is predominate. On that level his story rings true.

[nini]

49. There are no primarily black schools in Torrance

so I wonder what school he is talking about.


My issue of the multi cultural school was to point out that when there was issues it was the same kids - those who would be in trouble wherever they were. Yes, if you were in a predominately one race school and weren't that race - you might be a target by the assholes - but I would guess that those assholes go after their own also.

[dsc]

50. It did seem to work that way with gays and straights

so you probably have a point. I also misread his post. He didn't claim it was a one race school.

[nini]

52. We really need to wonder what causes people to hate like that

I simply cannot wrap my brain around people treating anyone different than them like crap. Bullys are always weaker than those they torment. You've got to wonder what their issues are to be so hateful.

Thankfully, most people are decent but it takes only one to traumatize someone for life :-(

[dsc]

55. For me it was about a half dozen

I have only seen two of them since high school. One apologized to me about a year after he left high school and the other one I saw was at my 20th reunion. He was honestly a bit pathetic. He was totally drunk. Even though I went, in part, for closure I didn't have the heart to confront him it just seemed kind of pointless. Everyone else was so cool with my being gay and I was at peace.

[nini]

56. Good Lord.. that must have been hell :-(

Sorry to hear this. Good for the one that apologized - he must have carried that with him all those years. The other one proves my point that those types have bigger issues than we may know - doesn't justify toruring others just shows normal well adjusted people don't do crap like that.

[dsc]

58. It was pretty bad

I turned to many a bottle myself as I got older and couldn't shut out the tapes that ran in my head. I pretty much hated myself for awhile. I had figured that guy would be at the reunion and I was going to confront him but when I saw him drinking so heavily and other told me how much he drank I just melted. I know from experience that he is punishing himself more than anything I could say to him. I guess that makes me a pretty lame guy but as a drunk I know being a drunk is a hell on earth.

[nini]

59. You're not lame.. you are a decent person.

You realized that guy was beyond anything you can say to him. It's funny how our initial reactions to people that hurt us is revenge, when it comes down to it we aren't capable of hurting other people back. That's what sets us apart from hateful idiots.

:hug:

[dsc]

60. It is truely ironic

I had gone to take peace for myself by confronting him and instead I got peace by seeing that I was over the revenge thing. By finding compassion for him I regenerated confidence in myself. Sometimes forgiveness of others is the best thing one can give ones self.

[nini]

61. That is the best revenge....

Moving on and growing in spite of their hate. :thumbsup:


:D

[dsc]

62. Yep

It felt good.

[dsc]

46. first of all I can relate to your experience on some levels

Being gay makes one a target. I am white, most of my classmates were white, but I was also gay, and most of my classmates were straight. I took more than my share of shit for it. So on that level I can relate. But you, unlike me, can isolate yourself so you are only around people like you. In all honesty, I never feel totally comfortable in a room full of straights who all know I am gay. I would be lying to say I did. But that is way different from harboring hatred of straights or saying evil things about straights. By being white and I am presuming straight, you have a plethera of priviledges that I don't have. Just like I have a bunch females and blacks don't. Your childhood doesn't exucuse racist thoughts or deeds anymore than mine does anti straight thoughts or deeds.

[treestar]

57. But then there is the degree of the sin

This entire culture is too much all or nothing on any issue.

[fortyfeetunder]

64. Here is my take on what you said

What blew up in the last week was people lashing back against intolerance. For example the subjects of the act was a classic put down of some high-achieving women, and it had racist and sexist overtones.

To me, one doesn't have to be necessarily racist to be intolerant. One can be intolerant of other races and cultures, and can probably function in (most likely, a segregated) society. However, when one acts on his/her intolerance to prevent someone different from themselves to be successful and a positive contributer to society, then I think that person's motives have to be examined....

[Dave From Canada]

65. Great post. It seems as though today, racism has become a type of McCarthyism.