In my experience, white women are as bad as white men on racism.

[bling bling]

Maybe I look racist or something on the outside and other white people somehow feel safe confiding in me. But I doubt it. All I know is on several occasions I’ve been sitting around with a group of white women co-workers in a casual setting and they don’t even try to feel me out before flat out making racist comments right in front of me. They just assume that the topic is a-ok with me and one that I’m perfectly comfortable listening to. That’s pretty telling how they just automatically assume that I’m of the same mind because I’m white, don’t you think? I think it’s pretty telling.

As a matter of fact, in my own family (extended), there are 3 members who have been outspoken with racist remarks in front of me. All 3 of them are women. Maybe their husbands are racist too. Probably, even. But they don’t go running their mouths about it right in front of me as easily as if they were discussing who wore what to church so I can’t say for sure.

I could share some stories about racism and white men too. But that’s not the point. The point is that for the last 3 days I’ve watched the various racism discussions essentially boil down to a finger pointing match. I especially love the threads where 75% of the posters gang up on the one or two DU’ers who dares to suggest that maybe other races can experience racism too. Oh god forbid a comment like that. Everyone, jump on him!!! Then that poor DU’er becomes the shiny object everyone can use to completely avoid any discussions of substance on the topic of race and/or racism.

But the threads that are specifically calling out white men for being the racist ones are just too much. I do believe I even saw a comment that racism is “ingrained” in white men and therefore all of them (or nearly all) are racist. Period.

So I’m here to say whoa ladies (some of you, you know who you are). Maybe some of you are lucky enough to have lived to this point without experiencing your own HEFTY share of racism coming from other females but I kind of doubt it. For the few of you that seriously have only seen racism from men, I’m literally here to tell you that you live a sheltered life.

Just keeping it real.

Maybe once we can quit bantering about how racist men are and wishing they’d just all admit it we can discuss race in relevant political terms. There are quite a few black DUers who have provided opportunities for discussion about how and where black people have disadvantages in this society. That's the stuff that should dominate the discussion. Our politicians ought to be listening to and addressing those disadvantages specifically. And so should this community. It sure would be more productive then all this useless and ridiculously self-righteous finger pointing. In my opinion, naturally.

[sandnsea]

1. white men and the women who love them

Of course white women are racist. They have an economic interest in maintaining the white supremacist hierarchy too.

If white men would let go of their fear of not being at the top of the heap, the women would too. For the most part.

It is ingrained. It's like being born rich. You don't fully appreciate the advantages it gives you because you never had to figure out how to do without them.

You're not the only one that racists confide in. White racists talk that way in front of all white people. It's just that most white people deny it happens.

[lligrd]

2. We All Have Some Racism, Sexism, Religionism???

tendencies. Jokes that stereotype people that we find funny, prove it. That doesn't really make us racists or sexists or religious fanatics just human. I was glad Imus was called on his statement. It was over the top and ridiculous. But we blew the chance to make it about the bigger issue of tolerance and instead allowed Imus himself to become an unfair target of hostility. It is unfair when one man is held to a higher standard than others and he was.

[bliss_eternal]

6. Jokes that stereotype people aren't funny...

...at least not to me. So perhaps you are only talking about yourself here (in terms of all people having racism, sexism, etc.)

[lligrd]

15. Funny, I Find Jokes About My Heritage Funny

Although I refrain from telling such jokes out of respect for those of you so easily offended. What I find offensive are actions that are designed to hurt others either by keeping them economically depressed or by actually killing them (both of which our current administration is guilty of). Apparently, I am one of the few with a limited amount of outrage that must be reserved for the most egregious of offenses.

[bliss_eternal]

18. Interesting...

...that you don't see how such jokes, comments and stereotypes serve to keep people divided, and make some people feel superior to others. You seem to feel that you are somehow better or more "evolved" because you can laugh at jokes about your people. Personally, I just think that's sad.

If people don't see that they are worthy of respect and dignity, it's difficult to impossible to get them concerned about other "more egregious offenses" as you put it.

But you keep right on looking at "the big picture" while you laugh at jokes about your cultural heritage. That's certainly a noble way to help people out of being economically depressed. :)

[lligrd]

25. I Bet You Laugh At Jokes About My Cultural Heritage Too

In fact, I don't know of anyone that hasn't. You see, jokes are a way of acknowledging the difference between cultures and are not necessarily bad. What Imus said was not a joke and would only be taken as such by those who are either very juvenile or bigoted and sexist. In fact, I don't think most juveniles would find it funny.

By the way, I spend every day trying to help people from being economically depressed. It is what I do for a living and I work hard and very long hours trying to help for little pay. And I have found that those needing the most help often tell the best jokes, seems hardship doesn't necessarily erode a sense of humor. If I tell a cultural joke, you can bet it will be about my own and it won't be degrading, just funny.

[bliss_eternal]

27. Then you'd lose some money...

Sorry. I don't. I don't allow people to tell those kinds of jokes around me, because I don't find them funny. About any race, culture, sex, etc. I think they are a sign of disrespect and ignorance.

I feel sorry for you. The way you keep defending ignorance. The way you seem to think it's ok. That's very sad. You aren't being funny, or enlightened telling cultural jokes about your race among your race. You are just perpetuating harm, and making yourself look foolish to others that know better, though they are probably too polite to tell you so.

[lligrd]

30. If You Have Never Laughed At An Irish Joke

You are truly missing something. How much do I owe you?

[napi21]

3. Racism is notisolated to any one race, group sex or place.

It exists in all races,all sexes, and everywhere. I think it depends onyour life experiences. I'm probably going to get flamed for saying this, or get the post deleted,but I've always said there's a difference between white people and trailer trash, a difference between black people and "N's", and a difference between Latinos and......

I've certainly experienced all of those in my jobs. That is not meant to be a slam to any ethnic group, but to saythere are good & bad in all of us.

[EFerrari]

14. I think that's right but why is it expressed in terms of

skin color or income? Why not in terms of community contribution or body odor?

In any group, there are @ssholes. Why is this expressed in terms of someone's income level or skin color?

:shrug:

[NMDemDist2]

4. i always remember the line in the John Grisham movie

"When you look at me, you don't see a MAN, you see a BLACK man."

:cry:

[ShortnFiery]

5. Yes, The Mayella Syndrome.

[bling bling]

7. I've never heard of that.

I tried to Google it but I didn't see anything. Is that a real term?

[ShortnFiery]

12. No, I made it up from a character in the esteemed, "To Kill a Mockingbird"

by Harper Lee. Both a novel and a movie.

Key terms:

atticus, miss caroline, radley, novel progresses, maudie, essay topics, ewells, childhood innocence, calpurnia, gothic elements, mockingbird, uncle jack, cunninghams, essential goodness, knothole, tom robinson, boo radley, mayella ewell, bob ewell, aunt alexandra, heck tate

[mykpart]

8. Many times in the past I have listened to racist remarks and said

nothing. In saying nothing, I made the problem worse. I'm not confrontational at all, but now when someone makes these remarks to me, I say something like, "Really? Is that true? Do you really believe that? How did you find that out? Who told you that?" The trick is to sound sincere and not sarcastic.

[EFerrari]

9. At bottom, it's about power. That's why white men are fingered.

Because in our culture, they do have more power and one of the collateral features of power is responsibility.

There is no comparison between people who have casually abused another group of human beings for centuries and those who have suffered that abuse. And that goes for brown people and for women as well.

[bliss_eternal]

11. You put that so well,...

...as usual. ;) :hi:

[EFerrari]

16. Hi there, bliss!

:hi:

[bling bling]

17. It's distracting.

It's a distraction from progress. It immobilizes the discussion from moving forward. Do you see it that way at all?

It's a pointless argument that doesn't matter. I don't even want to discuss it right now. I'm over it. I want to go to the next step of the conversation wherever race and sex is concerned. I want to evolve from who's to blame for this mess to how do these issues put people at a disadvantage. That's something everyone can get on board with and then maybe after that we can move along to solutions.

[EFerrari]

19. I agree that the positive direction is the way to go. No question.

But, people need to process their experience. A space/place needs to be there for that. Whether we like it or not, we're dealing with people and that's how they work.

[tech3149]

10. My experience is sex has no corelation with racist tendencies

It has much more to do with the environment you grew up in. When you grow up in a family that has some bias and aren't intimately exposed to people different than you bias tends to be more likely. I grew up in a family that had the normal undercurrent of bias for the 50's and 60's and the community was about as segregated as you could get. Once I got out in the working world and living in a truly interracial environment, any bias I picked up was shattered pretty quickly.

[bling bling]

22. This is much more empowering.

There, now THIS is something that actually offers a solution. If it's your parents that contribute to racism, then it makes sense that we ought to be talking to each other about the way we teach our children. We should understand how important that link is and make it our responsibility to make sure our children are brought up understanding what racism is and that it's not to be tolerated.

I'd love to read a discussion on something like this. Ideas, experiences, etc.

[tech3149]

31. I can't give any proven tips since I never had kids

I think the best place to start is with the concept that we are no better or worse than anyone else on the planet. It also helps to know yourself well. Rely on your strenghts and recognize your weakness and work to improve them. What experience I do have with young kids shows that they soak up the world around them like a sponge. If they see some bias or fault in you as a parent or caregiver, it will be embedded in their psyche and very hard to change. Once they're exposed to the greater world, any instance of bias or unfairness has to be explained to them to expose why it's wrong.

[AJ9000]

13. You didn't define racism. By some definitions most of us are racist including

blacks and other groups be they male or female.

[bling bling]

23. Quite frankly, I just don't care anymore who's racist.

The older I get, the less I feel like blaming and being angry and the more solution oriented I become.

What are the problems resulting from racism. How does it put people at a disadvantage? What do we do next to combat those disadvantages.

[AJ9000]

33. You left out the most important question: How should we define racism?

[bling bling]

37. I would like it defined as broadly as possible.

I would like to see it defined in a way enables as many as people as possible to join the conversation and bring their own experiences along. The more limiting we make the definition, the more likely we are to get distracted by nitpicking about who exactly gets to be included within that definition and who exactly gets to have their experiences validated.

The more you can engage people on a personal level, the more apt they are to be interested in discussing something.

[Raine]

20. I think that in most racial groups

it is assumed that all feel the same way...a stupid assumption to be sure.

[mntleo2]

21. There is a difference between racism and prejudice

My analysis:

Racism is an institution that tilts the wheel towards a particular race so that success is easier for that group than for any other. Prejudice is about dislike,`stereotyping, discriminating or shunning other people of a certain race. A person of color in this country cannot be racist because this society does not give him/her the same privilege as white men in particular. A person of color can be prejudice however, and dislike, shun, discriminate of stereotype people who are not their own race.

White women have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo for whites, particularly if they benefit from it, and you will find especially upper income white women quite racist. Lower income white women far less apt to be racist unless they are able to benefit more and most of the time this is because of the men in their liveswho have a better chance of benefitting, which in turns raises these women up.

Why is this you might ask? Because this society is also quite sexist. Being a white woman of any class will subject her to sexism, however if the men in their lives are financially stable, his privilege will raise her up as well. The most maligned and worse paid as well as the worse treated are women of color.

So white women may be racist because they stand to benefit more but if they had to live the realities of sexism and not have this protection, she is less apt to be prejudice. I would ask, who is given more credibility in this country, a man of color, or a white woman who his economic equal? I would say a man of color will merit more privilege and credibility than most white woman unless she is protected by money.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[tech3149]

35. It's good to break it down between racism and prejudice

as they are two different things. Racism as an institution,I think, will ony change generationally because it will take generations to overcome the income inequality and social seperation that it cause. Prejudice by adopting a stereotype cannot survive when community integration is more balanced. Once you know may people who should fit that sterotype it becomes obvious that it's not true.

[Rosemary2205]

38. I really appreciate your post.

I have really taken to heart the distinction. I am guilty of using the word racism when I should say prejudice.

Thank you for the kind lesson.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bling bling]

26. My cousin is a white man married to a black woman.

Both are ivy league school graduates with masters degrees. And I do have a point by mentioning that. In a Sociology of the Family course I took a few years ago in college, there was a bi-racial relationships study showing that in relationships with a white man with a women of color, the white man tended to have a high level of education.

[AspenRose]

43. My husband has a doctorate.

So maybe there's some truth to that.

[bliss_eternal]

28. Where on earth are you getting this...?

That's an outdated stereotype. There are many interracial couples featuring white men with black women. Maybe not where you are, but there are many.

[Bucky]

29. Roger Ebert, William Cohen, and two different couples at my church.

HardRocker05, you're a idiot.

May I suggest worrying a bit less about other peoples's relationships? Do this alone will make you seem less of an idiot.

I recall reading an article about the 1990 census. The actual numbers then (17 years ago) was that about one third of married black-white couples featured a white man and a black woman.

[Rosemary2205]

32. You are talking about me, personally.

I am the one who stated racism is "ingrained" amongst white males that it's difficult for those experiencing every day racism to remember not every white man is like that. And yes I know my spelling and grammar are just terrible and yes I'm one of those lowlifes that refuse to use spellcheck.

My comments were not meant to claim no other group is ever racist. They were directed toward a specific thread that detailed a black woman who experienced quite a bit of racism, specifically from white men, in her career.

I have already elaborated on my comments in that thread so there's no point in saying it all again. --- I just wanted to make it clear here that I was not saying white women, black women, black men, or anyone else for that matter is immune from racism. Nor was I saying every white man on the planet is a racist.

I will say, as I said in the other thread, that clearly white men, by and large, hold the highest levels of power in this country, and have successfully kept minorities out of the upper reaches of power. It's not by accident that our prisons are full of black men who have lost their right to vote.

Anyways, the bottom line is, I don't think taking my comments out of the context of the thread they were made in is quite fair and I wanted to set the record straight.

[bling bling]

34. If only...

Seriously, I wish I was talking personally about only one person here. You have no idea how burned out I am about the white man/power issue. Maybe there is something that can come out of that discussion but so far I haven't seen it. The specific topic of white mens power has been given ample time to develop into something meaningful or useful around here and it NEVER, EVER, does and it's just tired now and distracting. I quoted your words but trust me those words have essentially been recycled an infinte number of times around here since I've been around. This wasn't meant to be directed at you personally by any means.

[Rosemary2205]

36. Can I just say

that in my VERY humble opinion, older racists are difficult to change. It's unlikely the white power brokers in this country are going to be willing to share the power and benefits of this society any time soon. When we look for solutions, IMHO it has to be the incoming generations.

I find it difficult to believe any sort of solutions in the near future are possible when we still live in a world where the police who beat the shit out of Rodney King are still police officers. Where the prosecutors who put a 17 yr old black kid in jail for having consensual sex with a 15 yr old white girl classmate still has a job. (Georgia)

IMHO if this is the world we live in now, I don't see anythign close to a level playing field any time soon.

[bling bling]

39. No doubt about it.

I've said it too. It's sounds cold but when some of the older racists die off it will be helpful for this issue. I can already see a difference between the mindset of the generation after mine and the mindset of the generation before me. Thank goodness.

However, there are areas that impact black people specifically that are simply unacceptable right now to not address. We've been giving our elected Democrats NO PRESSURE on some of these issues because we've all been totally focused on Iraq. But that's unacceptable too. I was actually grateful this Imus thing happened because it brought up the oppotunity to discuss race and racism again around and I just can't stand seeing that opportunity slip away. I'm particularly concerned with the educational aspect of racism but really there are a lot of issues to discuss that are important and that we should be reminding our Democrats about. Black people are a significant block of this party and issues about our society that negatively impact them specifically should be discussed a lot more often then they currently are. We all ought to be on board there. IMO.

[entanglement]

40. There is little evidence that white women are any more progressive on matters of race than white men

but it is still a widely believed myth.

[Cha]

41. I guess I'm just lucky..I hang out with

friends and family who love people for their diversity and uniqueness. Always looking for the good qualities and realizing when someone needs a hug.

[Jonathan50]

42. Because I'm late middle aged and white

And live in the deep south, other whites automatically assume I'm bigoted.

I hear a lot of bigoted remarks from both white men and women.

When people think they are among their own kind they let their hair down and say what is really on their minds.

From what I see and hear lots of whites and blacks are bigoted against Arabs and/or Muslims or anyone that looks like they might be Arab or Muslim.



I do think though that the word "racism" is not really a good word to use. It implies that there are different "races" of people and modern anthropology has thoroughly obliterated that notion.

We are all of one race, the human race. That's the way I try to see things, I try to be like Stephen Colbert and not see color.

Though I am but human and hence imperfect so I never completely succeed.