Apology to Duke lacrosse players not enough

[rpannier]

I never wrote it, but I felt it -- which is just as bad. I said it in private discussions with friends, some of whom tried to get me to see the whole picture, not just the picture I wanted to see.

My being a black woman, my knowing too many athletes who treat women like items to be purchased in a vending machine, and my witnessing enough athlete rape trials where accusers are overwhelmed by their fame and fortune -- it all tainted my perception and made me doubt your innocence.

snip

could blame Durham County district attorney Mike Nifong, but that would be too easy. Oh, he's a lout, no doubt. He played upon the emotions of a community and its long-held hostilities, and put his reelection bid above morality and common sense. He played all of us and should be punished with nothing less than disbarment

I could blame Jesse Jackson, who I have hoped for years would disappear to a faraway land where CNN wouldn't follow. As usual, Jesse showed up and showed out. He incited the masses and then left everyone else to sort out the wreckage. And if Jesse wants to gain an ounce of the credibility he no longer has, he would find the nearest camera -- and we know he's good at that -- and express sorrow with all the sincerity he can muster. But the day Jesse apologizes for causing a scene is the day Rosie O'Donnell wears a muzzle.


link:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070412&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab2pos1

[Erika]

1. These could be a bunch of rich frat brat kids

Hiring a stripper to appear at their drunken party? One kid hiring a taxi to pick up a pizza? Their University has even sold the house they gave to them.

[pnwmom]

14. I think you should read the whole article.

You might learn something about your own prejudice. You know nothing about these students personally, but you're not afraid to judge them based on your preconceptions, while pretending that their only real offense -- underage drinking -- isn't something that most young people do. If you're going to criticize them for legally hiring a stripper, why don't you criticize her for being the stripper?

These are students who are essentially working two full time jobs, getting good grades at a tough university while they devote themselves to a demanding sport. But you think you know everything about them because they look like "frat brats" to you.

By the way, the University didn't give them the house. They paid the University rent for it, just like people everywhere pay rent.

And that University administration has demonstrated its cowardice in how it's handled the whole sorry situation.

[Hosnon]

95. Ah yes...rich + frat = presumption of wrongdoing.

Where is your bias?

[AtomicKitten]

2. the crude behavior of the frat boys

may not have risen to a crime in a court of law, but I suspect we aren't hearing the full story

perhaps we should call it a wash :shrug:

[Erika]

3. Rich boys are seldom prosecuted

It's very common that their accusers become confused.

[Bakunin]

4. Or maybe, just maybe

they are innocent and some sleazy DA was willing to railroad them into prison so he could win a primary?

[Ignacio Upton]

5. Shhhh!

There are some who prefer to stay within the confines of their pre-conceived notions and declare the players guilty no matter what. It's all because the very accusation of rape, plus the fact that they are rich, white, and jocks, means that they did it! Facts be damned!

[AtomicKitten]

7. hey, none of us know what really happened

so I think we can ALL safely climb down from the soapbox

[pnwmom]

18. Have you read the hundreds of pages of court documents that are

on the web?

You don't have to have been there to know that what she described could NOT have happened. She contradicts herself, and the DNA evidence and every other witness, from the other dancer, to her driver, to the other students, all contradict her.

She has made a similar accusation of gang rape in the past and she has suffered psychotic breaks. This is one of them.

[Hosnon]

97. Thankfully, the Justice System does not require your strict "knowledge".

No, we can't "know" what happened. But we can be pretty damned sure what didn't happen...

[Occulus]

13. They are

The Authoritarians.

[Casper Alabaster]

29. Interesting link,

thanks. I can't help but to think that you're suggesting that there wasn't a virulently hateful attack against a black woman that night at that house.
Nah...

[pnwmom]

68. There wasn't a "virulently hateful attack against a black woman

that night at that house." There was no attack against anyone.

[pnwmom]

19. I'm afraid you're right.

It's pretty discouraging. It shows what these students are going to be up against the rest of their lives. No one can say they haven't been permanently injured by this. All you have to do is read the nasty posts here.

[CTyankee]

54. I don't think life will be all that bad for them. There is a LOT of sympathy out there

for them, DU notwithstanding (we at DU are far from any sizable majority of American society!). They are privileged young men in our society and they were able to use their considerable assets to turn the whole thing around. That and the crumbling evidence and the media attention.

If you think about it, the woman stripper's life is going to turn out a lot worse than the boys'. She was used and manipulated and she clearly couldn't handle her situation. The boys had people truly looking out for them. I don't blame them, but I just don't think they will suffer as a result of this. I only hope that they come away from it with a sense of humility about the lives of people less fortunate than themselves.

[pnwmom]

67. I don't think this situation is the kind that would make most

people feel more sympathetic toward people like their accuser -- but their parents, in the TV interview, seem to be leading the way on this. They reserve all their animosity for Nifong, not the accuser.

But I saw the pained expression on Evans' face when he talked about people always remembering him for this. I think this has left some scars. No matter what they do, this is going to be part of their obituaries, and they know it.

How would you like to be known forever as someone once accused of rape? And to know that many people are just not going to accept the fact that you really were innocent?

[CTyankee]

72. In answer to your last question, I think they will have to put this in perspective.

On the one hand, there is the official clearing of them from charges of rape. The only people who still hold such animosity towards them are reacting out of rage and desperation against a racist society and they scapegoat these boys. As the young men grow into maturity they will doubtless have to grow also in their understanding of why some people will hate them and how rooted that is in our racist history. What a sad thing that it affects the innocent, but that is just one result of the sins of racist men who went before them.

Understand also, that there are white people who never accept the DNA evidence that frees black men from prison, who hold all black people in contempt. Imagine all of the blacks who have had to live with that.

This is the modern tragedy of racism. I hope some people learn something as a result of this tragic case.

[pnwmom]

76. Unfortunately, I think that Nifong, in his demagoguery, has

only worsened the problem.

[CTyankee]

77. I think Nifong is now an object of ridicule, a real embarassment to the judicial system.

My son is an assistant DA in Brooklyn. He is so horrified by what Nifong (and others) do in the name of justice. He works hard and is very dedicated. I see in him the very opposite of the malicious, cunning, exploitative Nifong.

As far as I am concerned, there is a special place in hell for the likes of Nifong...

[pnwmom]

80. Good prosecutors like your son must be sickened by this whole thing.

It gives them all a bad name.

[spanone]

84. Question? Does the D.A. have to present his case to a grand jury?

Then does the grand jury decide whether to proceed or not?

[pnwmom]

88. I have read that in N.C. that he did not have to go the grand jury route.

But he chose to. Unfortunately, N.C. keeps no records or transcripts of grand jury proceedings. So no one can learn at this point what information the grand jury had to go on when they voted to indict.

I also heard that a couple of grand jurors said they wouldn't have voted to indict if they had been told all the evidence that Nifong had at that time.

Don't forget, at the time of the grand jury proceeding, Nifong already knew that the DNA evidence excluded all the accused. He also knew that there was DNA evidence from several other unidentified men on the woman's body. It's hard to imagine that any grand jury would indict if they had known that. Don't you think? Wouldn't they want to know -- if the woman had been raped -- who belonged to that other DNA?

[CTyankee]

112. I really don't know but I'll ask my son

New York State isn't North Carolina, tho. I do know that my son was working on Grand Jury stuff 6 months ago and found it quite interesting. He has now been transitioned to a different area, but trial work also.

I will ask him!

[Casper Alabaster]

24. The seriousness of the charges demands

an entirely thorough examination of the facts at hand, in every context.

[pnwmom]

49. And that happened. The Attorney General's office spent several

months going over everything in Nifong's file and gathering a great deal more information on its own. They've interviewed the accuser several times, interviewed other witnesses, visited the house, and gathered a great deal of evidence that Nifong didn't have.

The charges were serious, yes, but they were completely bogus. There was NO evidence to support them, according to the A.G., and much evidence to contradict them. All that it came down to were the numerous contradictory and constantly changing stories told by the accuser -- whose last account had the rape occuring by all three men while she was suspended in mid air.

How would you feel if you were subject to a year's prosecution on the basis of NO evidence?

[Erika]

9. Duke has revised their conduct rules

to do away with the rich brat frat partying syndrome. Wonder why.

[pnwmom]

20. Link?

[Buzz Clik]

60. What the holy hell are you talking about?

Do you think there's a rule about "rich brat frat partying" anywhere in this country?

Yes, Duke revised their enforcement of their on-campus rules, but the house in question was off campus, and the team was definitely not Greek.

Good gawd. This case has brought out the very worst at DU. "I'm pissed off about all kinds of stuff, so I'll shout off my mouth brainlessly whenever I get the opportunity."

There are facts that are well known about this case. I really suggest you get a handle on them.

[pnwmom]

17. Welcome to DU, Bakunin!

And I agree.

:hi:

[Casper Alabaster]

25. And you can prove that? n/t.

n/t.

[Buzz Clik]

61. Uh, yeah. That was demonstrated in spades, my friend.

His name was Nifong. And he is now gone and facing all kinds of problems for his conduct.

He was in the middle of a primary against an African-American woman when the arrests were made. Even if the charges had any credence, he totally blew the case by constantly shoving his face in front of the cameras.

Seriously -- were not around for any of this?

[Casper Alabaster]

27. Missed edit: Welcome fellow-n00b Bakunin! n/t

n/t:toast:

[Hosnon]

96. That's not a popular opinion 'round here...you best be quiet. NT.

[bridgit]

6. Skilling went down hard...

i'm just say'n

[MadBadger]

11. Do you have a problem

With rich white people?

[pnwmom]

16. You obviously have your mind completely closed to the facts

of the case. Read the accuser's accounts for yourself -- several are already on the web, and more will be out next week. She's not confused, she's delusional.

Her latest account says that all three raped her while she was suspended mid-air.

[Mike Daniels]

38. Do you know that a cab driver testifed that one of the boys was in his cab during the attack?

Do you also know that the same cab driver was later intimidated by Nifong for offering his testimony?

In case you don't I suggest you read this article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/12/AR2007041200285.html

I don't expect it to change your mind because you obviously have a bug about these guys exclusively because they're well off and white. There's also no hard proof that they were the ones spouting off the racist language either.

[Hosnon]

94. You left off the sarcasm emoticon. NT.

[pnwmom]

15. AtomicKitten, you usually are a voice of reason around here.

These students were facing more than 30 years in prison. For what? For some underage drinking and peeing in the yard? Because some OTHER student (not any of the accused) made a racial slur or a comment about a baseball bat or sent a vile email?

If you had listened to the Attorney General yesterday, you would know that there was NO evidence that supported her stories, and that she continually changed them. That she contradicted herself, and all the evidence. And that other the witnesses (including her own driver, by the way) contradicted her. According to Cooper (in an interview with 60 minutes to be broadcast Sunday), in her latest fantastic version, all three men raped her while she was suspended in mid-air!

On top of that, she has a history of inpatient treatment for mental disorders and a record of accusing three other men of gang rape years ago -- charges that she eventually dropped. And you mention "crude" behavior? How about her crude behavior when she gave a taxi driver a lap dance, stole his car keys, then tried to mow a policeman down with the stolen taxi?

What is this need so many people seem to have to assume that "something" must have happened? Is it because you can't believe that this woman could be so disturbed or that Nifong could be so evil?

She needs serious help and he needs to go to jail. The Duke students just need to get on with their lives without the rest of us assuming forever that they must have done "something."

There's no way this is a wash. This was a rogue prosecution, and if these students had been scholarship students at Duke -- rather than the sons of parents who could manage the legal bills -- they could very well be in prison right now.

[Sadie4629]

31. Have to disagree with you on this one point

". . . if these students had been scholarship students at Duke -- rather than the sons of parents who could manage the legal bills -- they could very well be in prison right now."

If they had not been well-to-do white kids, the case would never have been prosecuted. Whatever Nifong's motives for pursuing this case, it was as much about class as about race.

[Buzz Clik]

59. Oh, man, you have that SO right. "Bonfire of the Vanities" all over the place.

[AtomicKitten]

35. my comments were re: the boys' raucous, bawdy behavior.

... not whether or not they were guilty or innocent; unless I was sitting on the jury, that is not for me to decide.

What is also historically evident is that money can buy an excellent defense. IMO OJ was deemed not guilty by virtue of proving suspicious police intervention vis a vis the preservative in the blood evidence. Poor people aren't usually given a thorough, vigorous defense. In this case, that was coupled with a sloppy prosecution.

So, in the final analysis, I'll leave it to the jury to decide and not view this as an episode of Days of our Lives for my entertainment.

[pnwmom]

45. There's never going to be a jury. All there's ever going to be

is the Attorney General, standing on national TV, and proclaiming -- fully aware that this is virtually never done -- that the three are innocent. He did that because he hoped that people like you would listen.

He did it because the charges should never have been brought in the first place. He has said that he deliberately didn't say what most people expected -- that there wasn't enough evidence to convict -- because there was NO evidence. Even her own testimony didn't amount to evidence, because it was so contradictory and constantly changing.

How can you say you'll leave it up to a non-existent jury? Those students are no more guilty of the crimes alleged than you are or I am. They don't deserve to be smeared with this allegation for the rest of their lives.

[AtomicKitten]

you know what I think?

I absolutely loathe legal cases being discussed on teevee as they are in process. I despise the bullshit commentary from the likes of Nancy Grace and Bill O'Reilly.

I am also familiar with what fancy lawyering can buy from firsthand experience. None of us really knows what transpired, what was provable, what is the truth.

And so I decline to comment on anybody's guilt or innocence because I don't know the real truth and mostly because it's none of my damn business.

[pnwmom]

82. The students are as innocent of the charges as you are,

or as I am. Neither of us will ever be tried in court for that crime, will we?

But aren't we still innocent?

The case is not in process. It's over. It's grossly unfair to these young men to say they might still be guilty simply because the Attorney General decided that there was NO EVIDENCE with which to put on a trial.

[Sadie4629]

30. They were declared innocent

Which is very rare. It means they are innocent. Not that there wasn't enough evidence, or that a witness refused to testify, or that too many mistakes were made in preparing for trial. They are innocent.

Curious: What would it take to convince you of their innocence?

[AtomicKitten]

34. not up to me to judge

I merely commented on the frat boys bad behavior as in bawdy, raucous, etc.

Unless I was sitting on the jury, I would never presume to declare someone guilty or innocent and even then, as I said, nobody really knows for sure.

[Sadie4629]

At this point, what would it take to convince you of their innocence?

The reason it will never get to a jury is because it was so clear to the AG that no crime had been committed. In other words, that the three young men are innocent. If the AG, who knows more about the case than any of us ever will, has stated that they are innocent, then why should there be any question in anyone's mind?

[pnwmom]

46. It was up to the Attorney General and he forcefully declared them innocent

in an effort to convince people like you that this prosecution should never have happened in the first place.

He could have made the usual statement about not having "enough" evidence, but he chose to go much farther than that. He chose to unambiguously clear these students names.

He's examined the entire record. He's interviewed the accuser several times, and numerous other witnesses and records. He says there is NO EVIDENCE that supports her, and lots of evidence that contradicts her. There is no case. Period.

You are presuming that you know more than he does -- that there might be evidence of guilt -- even though he has reviewed the entire file and you haven't.

He's going to be on 60 minutes on Sunday. Maybe you should watch him. And you could read the report he's going to be issuing next week.

(And by the way, he's not a political opponent of Nifong -- they're both Democrats.)

[citizen snips]

50. Being rude is not against the law.

DNA evidence does not lie so their innocence is certain.

[AtomicKitten]

71. never said it was

otherwise half of DU would be in jail

[Buzz Clik]

58. No. You're still unreasonably biased, and that doesn't come out in the wash.

Sorry.

[AtomicKitten]

70. how can I be biased when I won't comment on guilt or innocence?

The frat boys behaved like pigs and, no, that's not against the law. That was the sum total of my comment. If you want to argue guilt or innocence, you're barking up the wrong tree.

They have been declared legally innocent. That should be enough to end the discussion.

[pnwmom]

107. But why are you even posting about this then? And why do you

single out the "frat boys" -- they're not frat boys, by the way, they're members of an athletic team -- for your criticism, and not the woman who charged $400 to perform for them?

If they're pigs, so is she. They both volunteered for the sleezy little get-together.

[Hosnon]

93. A wash? No...it is not a wash. These individuals' lives have been tainted

by this because this woman lied.

Sure, they had strippers...but that is not a crime. This is in no way a "wash".

[ToeBot]

8. I'm so glad, over the last few days, we've all learned a few things about racism, sexism, classism..

ya know, the whole range of bigotries that plague humanity. Come on ladies(?), lets all join hands and sing Kumbayah? No? Well watch out for mirrors, you may see something you don't like.

[Breeze54]

10. They're innocent of the rape charges but

it doesn't change the fact they're a bunch of pigs.

Women are not meat or property! :grr:

-One out of every four college women have experienced rape or attempted rape.
(Miller, Trivedi, Frenske, 1996).

-Young women between the ages of sixteen and twenty-four are four times as likely
to be sexually assaulted than all other women (Miller, Trivedi, Frenske, 1996).

-One in seven college women will be raped before they graduate, and 90% will know their attacker
(Congressional Caucus for Women’s Issues, 1992).

-One out of twelve college men in a 1988 study admitted that they committed acts that meet
the legal definition of rape or attempted rape, but only 1% of them consider the behavior
criminal in nature
(Congressional Caucus for Women’s Issues, 1992).

The Sexual Victimization of College Women

http://www.now.org/issues/violence/030702college.html

March 7, 2002

by Cindy Hanford, Web Writer

snip-->

The board found that the male student had sexually assaulted his classmate while she
was intoxicated, but his only punishment was to lose his housing privileges for a short time.

Meanwhile, the woman feels she cannot return to school there in the fall.

Women had EVERY reason to think they might be guilty!! Rape on college campuses
is disgustingly common! Maybe you should be talking to your buddies about respecting
women instead of trying to browbeat women who suspected the duke case was true!

They have every reason!

[pnwmom]

21. If they're pigs simply for hiring her, why isn't she a pig for going there?

I don't get it.

It's one thing to have suspected the accusation was true IN THE BEGINNING, when Nifong was going around shouting his story to the world. I don't blame anyone for doing that -- in fact, I did it myself.


But after all the DNA evidence came in, and she wasn't able to pick the students out of a normal line-up, and all her contradictory stories came to light, and the other men's DNA came in, and after the Attorney General went on TV and said firmly that these students were INNOCENT -- why are people still acting like maybe they aren't?

Why are supposedly progressive people so willing to judge these boys as guilty based on nothing more than the fact that they are athletes, or that they look like frat members?

Are we supposed to be judging people based on how they look? Then maybe we're all more like Don Imus than we want to admit.

[Breeze54]

26. Then do some research if you 'don't get it.'

[pnwmom]

43. Research on what? On the prejudice of DUers?

[Casper Alabaster]

28. Is she a pig for being a 'nappy-headed ho'?

Typical.
The alleged stripper, allegedly mentally disabled, is promised a wad of cash-American by a house full of college age white boys.
Yeah, nothing to see here, move along...

[pnwmom]

44. They had no way of knowing that the "exotic dancer" they hired

was going to be mentally ill. And they didn't bribe her, they agreed to pay the fee that her agency charged.

[spoony]

69. Alleged stripper?

Lol, okay.

[CTyankee]

56. Well, as for the title of your post the answer is "no." Why?

Because I don't think she relished having to work the way she did. I wouldn't call them pigs. They had the money, they called the shots. They had choices that she didn't have. As I recall she has two young kids and was working her way through college. In our society, everything was stacked against her. The boys, on the other hand, had everything stacked for them.

That is no excuse for injustice and I'm not trying to make it so. But I needed to comment on your title...

[pnwmom]

63. You wouldn't call them pigs -- fine, so we don't disagree.

I don't think either the students or the woman should be called names.

[CTyankee]

64. I am more interested in her, though. I wonder how she picks up the pieces

of her life. I feel so sorry for her. She has been jerked around in this whole process. She was obviously confused and people just manipulated her. Her life has been so hard up to now and now it has gotten even harder. I hope she can put this behind her and that she has caring people around her, like the boys do. But I suspect she is mostly on her own in this. Poverty and past racism and sexism is really taking its toll on her.

[pnwmom]

66. I feel sorry for her, but not sorrier for her than the students.

Something about being a mother of sons has woken me up to the fact that young men are often far more vulnerable than they might appear to be on the outside. And all young men -- even members of athletic teams -- shouldn't be judged because of the bad behavior of others.

[NashVegas]

85. I Think Guys Who Threaten Strippers With Broomsticks & Scream Racist Comments Are Pigs

but that's just me.

Rapists, no. But pigs, yes indeed.

[pnwmom]

87. There's proof that NONE of these students did those things.

There's the videotape of the party. None of the offensive statements were made by the three accused students.

Have you never gone to a party or attended any kind of event or demonstration or been in any venue where someone else did something objectionable? Was it your fault for just being there?

[NashVegas]

89. How About Multiple Witnesses?

Or do they not count anymore?

Oh, wait. Sorry, I mistook the three angels for those other bad frat boys who didn't get charged.

[pnwmom]

90. Do you think that if a woman isn't an angel then it's her fault

if she's raped?

I guess you must. . .

since you obviously think that, unless a guy is a choirboy, it's his own fault if a prosecutor decides to abuse his office and come after him with false charges.

But I don't think either situation is true. Victims shouldn't be blamed for their victimization, and these students were victims of prosecutorial abuse.

[pnwmom]

91. I forgot to add: you know that there aren't ANY witnesses to

Evans, Finnerty, or Seligmann making threatening statements or racial slurs.

The fact that you say this tells me that you're listening to people who are making things up. There is no witness testimony anywhere that these students made any objectionable statements -- except for the confused accuser herself, who frequently changed the names of her attackers, never told the same story twice, and -- in her last account -- described a fantasy scene where the three guys raped her in the tiny bathroom while she was suspended in mid-air.

[ToeBot]

42. But, they're still guilty of something because they are wealthy, white and male. I get your point.

Sorry, but boorish behavior is not a crime. And as for 'browbeating', can an ideologue actually be browbeaten? Can someone so absolutely convince of their infallibility, of their personal rectitude be intimidated; by a mere forum post? If you do, read the threads above, they are very telling.

[Dutch]

101. Clearly they didn't have 'every reason'.

Because the charges were completely unfounded- there was no reason.

Your only 'reason' you put forward is basically this; campus rape is all too common, therefore every specific accusation of rape relating to college students must be true.

And yes, that is pure grade-A prejudiced dumbfuck reasoning of the first order.

Women are not meat or property!:grr:

And of course no-one here would ever claim they were, and you know that full well. What's absloutely disgusting is that despite the fact that you have behaved appallingly over this issue, presuming innocent people to be guilty with no real evidence, you continue to hide behind yoru own self-righteousness relating to a crime that was not commited- instead of just pulling yourself together, admitting you were wrong and apologizing. Sad.

[Breeze54]

105. No, that's not what I said or meant.

"Your only 'reason' you put forward is basically this; campus rape is all too common,
therefore every specific accusation of rape relating to college students must be true."

I said that it's understandable, given the statistics, that the assumption of guilt would be there.
I didn't say whether I thought they were guilty or not. I was speaking about the call for apologies.

[IanBean]

12. I've been falsely accused of rape

believe me, you will NEVER EVER get an apology from anyone.

[pnwmom]

22. Welcome to DU, IanBean.

And for what it's worth, I'm sorry if you had to go through something like this. No one should have to be raped, OR to go through the trauma of a false accusation.

[Casper Alabaster]

23. That's a cheezy article

I've heard all the Hate-Radio 527s purporting to speak on behalf of these poor put-upon fratboys; their own well-paid PR spokespeople in the media aren't speaking out about their alleged innocence on their clients' behalf.

[pnwmom]

52. The Attorney General of the State of North Carolina, a Democrat,

has declared them -- in no uncertain terms -- to be innocent, and will be issuing a written report on his findings next week. He's also going to be on 60 Minutes explaining his decision this Sunday.

He's not a P.R. person, and he's not a political opponent of Nifong (also a Democrat). He IS someone interested in justice, and who -- in the name of justice -- is doing everything in his power to clear these students names.

Unlike you, I don't listen to Hate-Radio. I couldn't care less what those people say, but if they're supporting the innocence of these students, then in that instance, they're correct.

[ecstatic]

32. I don't feel sympathy. People are falsely accused all the time

Why should they get special sympathy when this type of thing happens all the time in our justice system (particularly to minorities)?

[mainegreen]

36. Or better yet, why not feel sympathy for all people falsely accused?

:shrug:

[pnwmom]

53. Apparently you're not a very sympathetic person.

Whenever I learn of a case where someone has been falsely accused, I feel bad for him or her, and the agony s/he must have gone through.

Why should I not in this case?

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

33. No apology needed.

You may have felt or thought about the outcome, but there's no crime there. You made no public accusation. About as guilty as Jimmy Carter thinking about sex.

Acknowledging your feelings is enough. If you still feel bad, you can slap your forehead with the palm of your hand and yell "Doh". It works for me.

These guys did not kidnap or rape, that's become clear. Holding a drunken team and/or frat bash and hiring strippers is not illegal, but it's hardly what I would call "innocent". How far the party went, how far beyond stripping, we don't know (and don't care). But these are not poor victimized innocent boys.

I'd guess right now they're meeting with lawyers to figure out how to cash in on this whole mess. Which pockets are deep enough to go after. They won't sue the accuser, not profit there. But the school? The city or state? The prosecutor? Bingo, cha-ching, there's a lot of money on those tables.

[Mike Daniels]

41. Legal fees averaged in the high six figures for each of the three

Don't you think they're entitled to get that money back from someone?

It seems proper for them to sue those who made their lives hell and that would be Nifong, the city of Durham, the state of NC and Duke University.

I'd be all for them suing the accuser on general principle but it sounds like she has enough issues of her own to deal with.

[pnwmom]

55. Not innocent? They are as innocent of the crimes alleged as you are

or I am.

You shouldn't have to be a choirboy in order to avoid a malicious, rogue prosecution, just as you shouldn't have to be an angel in order to avoid a rape.

And they have every right to seek monetary compensation for what they've been through. Their attorneys bills alone have been in the millions.

[Balbus]

37. Well, no worries there. They'll be getting a lot more than the apology.

They'll be cashing in on book deals, lawsuits and such before too long here. And I say good for them. They deserve it.

[Catherine Vincent]

40. Lawsuits, I can see (against the district attorney's office) but

who would want to buy books about this incident?

[kwassa]

39. whatever

My being a black woman, my knowing too many athletes who treat women like items to be purchased in a vending machine, and my witnessing enough athlete rape trials where accusers are overwhelmed by their fame and fortune -- it all tainted my perception and made me doubt your innocence

me, too. Most times atheletes get off, too, though that climate may finally be changing.

Yes, you made an unwise decision to entertain strippers at a residence, but that just makes you guilty of being like 90 percent of college males.

90 % of college males have strippers come to their dorms? News to me. I don't know of any stripper coming to any party in my entire college career. Is this permittable college behavior? Are the racist comments at that party to be forgotten?

[pnwmom]

57. Should you be held responsible because you were in a room

where someone ELSE made a racial slur? They know who made the objectionable comment, it's on videotape; and it wasn't any of the three accused students.

And I don't know where you went to college, but vast numbers of the guys probably have seen strippers -- and those that haven't, probably wouldn't say no if given the opportunity.

But here's the real question:

Why should these guys have to be choirboys in order to avoid a false prosecution and the condemnation of people on these boards? Why should a woman have to be an angel in order to avoid people accusing her of being responsible for her own rape?

It's the same thing.

[AngryAmish]

104. I hired strippers in college

Not personally but as a group. It was done. 90% maybe not but it is inside the bell curve of normative behavior.

[izzybeans]

47. I feel more sympathy for the falsely accused that don't have legions of

advocates picking a part their cases. The system does not work for them. These young men from Duke should be thankful that it worked in their favor. Tarnished reputations or not, they are not going to be sitting in jail. That is a stigma that never fades.

I struggle with the belief that if these kids were of color, this case would have been met with the type of apathy that leads to complacent jurisprudence and criminal injustice. The legions would not have poured over the documents on their behalf. There would be very few advocates at the water cooler "telling it like it is". And the few that did... they'd be written off as some "PC" liberal whining about injustice. They'd be met by the grinch's snarl, "Bleeding hearts of the world unite." The rush of support would have been but a trickle.

I hope that wouldn't have been true. But hope only springs eternal in a fairy tale.

[MadBadger]

48. Irony

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would be down acting as the legions pouring over the documents on their behalf.

[izzybeans]

51. And as with Cindy Lou Who, the Grinch shows up snarling dismissively.

[pnwmom]

62. The students themselves addressed that very issue in the press conference.

They are worried about other people with fewer resources who have been subjected to the same thing.

People in Durham should be glad that thanks to this case, a rogue prosecutor has been shut down. If Nifong had been allowed to get away with this, it would have encouraged other prosecutors in the same sorts of abuse.

And the whole reason this case got so much attention was because of Nifong, going on TV and giving his 70 interviews before he even had any defendants in the case. He milked it for all the publicity he could get, and had people all over the country condemning the entire LAX team on the basis of his lies. It's only fair that the end of the case -- the statement of the students' innocence -- should be just as public.

[izzybeans]

65. The difference between him and the prosecutor in my town is that the cameras

are from national media sources.

I see Duke is teaching their children well given their stance on this issue.

And I completely agree. These kids need public closure.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

73. I feel more sympathy...

for the gay guy these players beat up.

[pnwmom]

79. They didn't beat up a gay guy. Evans and Seligmann weren't even there.

One of the students, Finnerty, mixed it up with someone in D.C. (who insists he is not gay, by the way.) But according to the reports, Finnerty made a "fake" punch at the guy -- which didn't connect. There was never any accusation that Finnerty had hurt the guy. But in the melee -- two groups of guys pushing each other around -- someone hit Finnerty on the head, and someone else (not Finnerty) gave that guy a bloody lip.

[Dutch]

102. 'These young men' having nothing to be thankful for.

Being falsely accused of rape and then hounded by a crooked prosecutor is nothing to be thankful for. And it ain't a stigma that will fade quickly. Why don't you save your (fully justified) outrage over the iniquites of the justice system towards people of color for a case where people of color have been victims of wrongful conviction- there are plenty of them, after all? Because it has no bearing on the case of these three completely innocent people who are thoroughly deserving of sympathy for their ordeal, whatever tortured logic some here may come up with in their bizarre quest to escape this obvious reality.

[riverdeep]

74. Unfortunately, this case shows progressives can be as biased

as conservatives. Not that I didn't already know that, but it's unsettling to see. People are trying to correct historical (and present day) wrongs through this case. Because women are usually victimized twice, once by the assailant and once by the justice system, they naturally side with the women. We all have our biases. I sided with her too. Many NASCAR types probably sided with the men. But once the evidence is in, and here it's unusually clear that they are innocent-it doesn't get settled with this much clarity typically; if you are still holding reservations, hemming and hawing, and saying 'yes but', you're revealing a weakness in your ability to ascertain reality.

Don't say 'yes but'. You wouldn't say that to a woman who had been raped. Yes she got raped, but he didn't kill her. Yes she got raped, but she was a well known slut. It doesn't look good. Technically you may not have said anything wrong, but the spirit shows through.

One good thing too come out is that if this is what a false accusation case looks like than they should be easy to spot, and the real cases can go forward with more confidence. Yeah, they might be jerks, but they were clearly innocent of this crime, and have suffered, deserve our sympathy, end of story.

As far as compensation, I don't think most false accusation cases ever get compensated.

[pnwmom]

81. Really good post, riverdeep.

And I especially like your point about "yes but." There's a really strong strain of that running through the posts about this subject, and it's wrong.

What happened to these young men was terrible, and it doesn't matter a bit whether or not they were choirboys -- just as a real rape is terrible, whether or not the woman has been an angel.

Victims should never be blamed for what has happened to them -- and these young men were the victims of an abuse of power -- and possibly of outright criminal acts. The justice system will decide that.

[riverdeep]

75. Also,

I should add that I am sickened by the way the conservative press is rallying around this case, some of them are coming right out and saying
'see, them bitches lie!'. That's not the lesson to be learned. The lesson is what happens when an overzealous prosecutor fails the public trust. I still believe that the majority of time, a woman accusing a man of rape is accurate, but not all the time. This was of the latter.

[pnwmom]

83. You're right about this, too. And I think some of the reason

the people around here can be so nasty about the students is that they're automatically taking sides against the freepers.

But this isn't a freeper/progressive issue, or it shouldn't be. All Americans are threatened when our constitutional rights are threatened, and Nifong was abusing the system.

[MadBadger]

92. The real lesson

Is that we have lossed the idea of Innocent until proven guilty. It is sad, but very true.

[Catchawave]

78. I could not speak about Imus because I'm "white" so

can I speak about this case because I'm the mother of a "rich white North Carolina college lacrosse player" ? I wish about the rich, heh, and his scholarship was to a much smaller NC college, but I digress....

I agree with the article in the OP, apologies are not enough, those boys did nothing illegal (though the MSM has declared their behavior "frat boy loutish" by virture they hired a, gasp, stripper, still legal, or that young lady was breaking the law too???)

Where's the outrage? I knew these boys were "innocent" from the git go, even BEFORE I KNEW THE COLOR of the accuser.

LAX players of ALL COLOR, especially in elite schools on scholarship, are the standard bearers of BMOC, along with the other ball and puck jocks. Coeds line up outside their dorm rooms 24/7....sad, but true, fortuately by the time my daughter went to college, she searched out "Bill Gates meets 9 Inch Nails" types and never worked as a "stripper" to pay her way through school. Ok, digressing again, but...I'm still waiting for the outrage. Those boys lost a year of their lives, their season was terminated, their coach was fired (aka, resigned).....ask me anything. And I'm a parent, think about theirs too.

[pnwmom]

86. I'm also a parent of college students,

and it's been pretty depressing to observe all the acrimony. Would they rather that we all just vote Republican? Because it's hurtful to have so much nastiness hurled our way -- simply because of our demographics -- from people who are supposed to be our allies.

[bliss_eternal]

98. I'd give more credence to this...

...if it didn't appear to be an obvious post and run on the part of the op. :eyes:

[rpannier]

99. Post and Run???

WTF is that supposed to mean?

Do you expect every OP to sit by their computer and respond to every post?

I put this up because it offers one perspective on the situation.

Since I am not the woman who wrote the original article I have no personal stake in what she says.

To diminish the post and her perspective with your weak and silly post shows you really have nothing substantive to add to the discussion.

[bliss_eternal]

100. You're entitled to your opinion...

...as am I.

But if my statements were so "weak and silly," why didn't you just ignore them?
That's generally what I do when I think something is silly.

Yet my post, is the one you decided to respond to. How very special. :crazy: Oh and btw, I generally don't take the time to post things on the boards that I have no personal stake in.

But Of course, we all add to the community in our own way, don't we? :eyes:

What was YOUR WAY again? Oh yes, how could I forget...posting excerpts from articles you don't necessarily agree with and have no personal stake in.

Yeah...right.
:rofl:

[Buzz Clik]

103. That's quite a turnaround -- from "post and run" to "why did you respond"

Care to add any substance to this discussion?

[bliss_eternal]

109. There's no substance here...

...from where I sit. Nice baiting tactics, though. Perhaps you should use them on someone lacking in the ability to see a lynch mob with an obvious agenda from a mile away.

Try to play nice before this flame-bait is locked. :hi:

[Buzz Clik]

111. No substance? You come on and dismiss this OP without one reason.

Yeah, I'd say you have a great concept of what a lack of substance sounds like.

IF you want a substantive debate, try saying something substantive.

[bliss_eternal]

113. That's the difference between you and I...

...you obviously want and need to debate. As such, you assume everyone providing comments is seeking the same. Newsflash--sometimes people just want to comment and aren't seeking an exchange. But thanks for the attention all the same. It's quite flattering. ;) :rofl:

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bliss_eternal]

116. This is you...

"Fight with me....Pleeeeeaaaase! If I call you names, bait, attack and project onto you all that I am, you'll get angry and argue with me....I just know you will. I'm bored and have nothing better to do, than circle threads on DU like a buzzard waiting for prey. Pleeeaaaaase GET MAD and FIGHT WITH ME!" pauses to take a breath..."...take my BAIT DAMN YOU!"

This is me: "Sorry. Buh-bye."

:rofl:

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnwmom]

106. So what is your personal stake in this?

[bliss_eternal]

108. Ignored.

.

[bliss_eternal]

110. Oh, I get it....

...how could I have been so dense.:blush:

Clearly, this is relevant because....well....um,....because....oh wait.....I had it a minute ago....let me scan the article again....hold on a second.......................................................
..............................................................................
.............................................................THERE! Because the person that wrote this is a black woman!
Is that right? Did I get it?


Oh, uh,....why is that relevant? Um,.......let's see....I had that, too....Hmmmmmmmmmm......?

I'm so embarassed, :blush: just give me another minute to scan the article. Where DID I put my mind today? :blush:.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................THERE IT IS!!!!!
Because the "alleged victim" was also a black woman! HA--I knew I could do it! :bounce:

So the moral of this story, Kiddies is that THIS post and thread are relevant because the op took the time from their busy life to look through the many, many articles on the internet about this horrific situation to find THE ONE, that felt remorse for the Duke players from the perspective of........................................................Oh yes, a black woman........................................like the alleged victim.

[MadBadger]

114. Is this too harsh?

All those who dont feel remorse for these boys should have to go through exactly what they went through. Tell me how that feels? Tell me if they can just hide behind their money and everything will go away. CUz I am betting it wont.