Chinese abortion ad: Is it crossing the line?

[Kadie]

Chinese abortion ad: Is it crossing the line?

A hospital in Chongqing, China, recently released an advertisement offering half-price abortions for women who show a student ID. The ad is making the rounds on the Internet.



According to the Web site Shanghailist, the advertisement (above) reads:

Students are our future, but when something happens to them, who will help and protect them? Chongqing Huaxi Women's Hospital has started Students Care Month, where those students who come to get an abortion can get 50% off if they show their student ids. Abortion surgeries are the most advanced in the world, won't stretch (your womb), won't hurt, it's quick, and you can do what you want afterward, it won't affect your studies or your work.

The advertisement has created quite a stir. When Babble's Strollerderby blogger Brett Singer wrote in a post, "Pro-life, pro-choice, wherever you stand in the abortion debate, I think we can perhaps all agree that a hospital advertising 'half price abortions if you show your student ID' crosses a line, the majority of his readers disagreed.

One reader commented:

I'm not offended at all. This sounds like a good policy to me, I wish abortions were more affordable here in the US. No one should ever decide to have a baby just because they can't afford an abortion. In my state, the state children's health insurance program will pay for abortions for women who meet income requirements, but you have to wait 2-4 weeks to be approved. The limit for abortion here is 12 weeks, so depending on when the woman finds out she is pregnant, many would be past the first trimester if they waited for the coverage. Kind of sounds like you are just trying to fan the flames of the abortion debate.


Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfmoms/detail?entry_id=46341&tsp=1#ixzz0PPLlUBJk

[Brigid]

1. Encouraging abortion?

Yes, this ad is definitely crossing waaay over the line. :scared:

[Clintonista2]

12. Sorry but how is this encouraging abortion?

Abortions ought to be free anyways. Women shouldn't be forced to give up their reproductive rights just because they can't afford it.

[Brigid]

16. Abortion is being shamelessly promoted here.

As if it is a good thing, easy and quick and with no repercussions. Just because I am not interested in standing out in front of a clinic with tape over my mouth doesn't mean I like the idea of it actually being promoted like this.

[ceile]

23. So?

The clinic sells a service, why shouldn't they advertise? And for the most part, abortions are quick and easy, and have no repercussions-I don't understand what your point is.

[Brigid]

25. Point is, there are options.

And absent medical necessity, abortion ought to be the very last resort in dealing with an unexpected pregnancy. It is not at all a simple or quick decision.

[Scout]

29. what other options might those be?

besides having it or having an abortion.

if you don't want to give birth, there are no option other than abortion.

fucking duh.

[Brigid]

33. Contraception and maybe even abstience come to mind.

[Scout]

40. wrong.

once you are pregnant, because, say, your contraception failed or your husband just won't take no for an answer...

what are the options?

there are none. you either squeeze it out or terminate.

[sweetpotato]

42. Sometimes contraception doesn't work, and abstinence is not an option

And sex is fun. It feels good, raises endorphin levels, and is actually beneficial for one's health.

We need to stop with the notion that "doing the dirty bad nasty" needs to be punished.

People are going to have sex.

[Maru Kitteh]

181. It always comes down to punishment for these types.

Most of them make an exception in their judgementalism for abortion after rape. Really? Isn't accidental rape fetus equally entitled to ruin mommy's life, just like his drunken-Saturday-night-at-the-bar-and-the-condom-broke fetus peers?

NO! You see, if mommy was a wanton whore, she needs to be punished. No abortion for her.

[Indenturedebtor]

142. Yeah like anyone would rather have major surgery than use a condom

Clearly the ideas of child-birth/abortion aren't on people's mind when they have unprotected sex.

The idea that access to abortions somehow promotes irresponsible sex is pretty silly.

This whole argument is akin to "Hey that guy should have been wearing his seatbelt. Well he wasn't... if we treat him then all the other non-seatbelt wearers out there will wear their seatbelts even less! Lets let him die and teach those reckless bastards a lesson! Also if we do this we can go home and be EXTRA smug about how much better and smarter we are!"

:eyes:

[moriah]

157. It's a little late for that when you're actually needing the abortion... n/t

[Heidi]

199. Those only work to prevent pregnancy. They do nothing to end a pregnancy,

and that's what's sometimes needed.

[EOTE]

210. So you're of the mind that women use abortion as a form of contraception?

That's incredibly sick. I would never think so poorly of women.

[ceile]

30. I disagree.

I had no problem deciding to terminate. It was a quick and easy decision. Was it my only option? No, but it was the only reasonable one and the only one I was comfortable with. And I wish more women would realize that it doesn't have to be some soul searching, life changing experience. It is a simple medical procedure. But because there is so much unnecessary stigma attached, women are practically forced to feel guilty. One thing this ad does is show that there is no shame in needing an abortion.

[Book Lover]

36. +1!

[smokey nj]

38. Great response!

:applause:

[redqueen]

53. Well said.

It's a shame how politicized this issue has become... we (as a society) just can't seem to guilt trip women enough.

[Ignis]

71. Isn't it odd having others tell you how you SHOULD feel?

:shrug:

[Codeine]

75. Pre-fucking-cisely.

This need not have any more significance than any other outpatient procedure. The shitstains that want you to feel guilty can fuck right off.

[malaise]

100. They're the same people screaming that the government

must stay away from their bodies.

The woman decides period. It's her body.

[ieoeja]

82. That myth just won't die.

I know women who also didn't give it a second thought. Pregnant? Shit! Now I have to get an abortion.

And given that the Chinese haven't had Brigid crammed into their heads the past few decades, I imagine most Chinese women think of it as just another form of birth control.

[Petrushka]

156. Weren't Chinese women forced to abort any child conceived after their first one?

A quick google.com search brought lotsa articles on the
subject of abortion/population control in China, where
women have been forced by their government to abort
unborn children even in the ninth month of pregnancy.
Sadly, population control measures in China have caused
many women to choose abortion for ending their first
pregnancies when the unborn is female. Oh, well . . . (**sigh**)

:shrug:

Here's one of many links:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9766870

[Why Syzygy]

187. Exactly right.

And it conspicuously absent this discussion.

DU mantra. Why deal with facts when it's so much more fun to insult.

[ieoeja]

196. Actually that is mentioned in here several times.

And, yes, it is just as wrong to FORCE abortions as it to FORBID them.

But that has absofuckinglutely nothing whatsoever to do with the myth that abortion is a traumatic experience for almost all women. For many people it is just another form of birth control and no big deal.

We think you're seriously screwed in the head. You think we're evil. The difference is that you try to force your beliefs on us, while all we want is for you to shut the fuck up and leave us alone.

[Hansel]

260. Amen. nt

[Why Syzygy]

270. whaaa?

I haven't said a thing about trauma in this thread. I HAVE known women who felt traumatized.
But I wouldn't have even mentioned it until you insulted me with untrue statements.

Something obviously traumatized you. Get some glue and hold it together.

[Matariki]

95. I wish there was a way to recommend posts. Well said Ceile. Thank you.

[musette_sf]

106. + 1

great comment!

[blueamy66]

111. Me too.

:thumbsup:

[musette_sf]

127. + 1

:applause:

[Luminous Animal]

180. +2

[Le Taz Hot]

192. I had exactly the same experience.

Not one moment of regret.

[Spider Jerusalem]

37. Way to impose Western morality on people of another culture, there.

The idea of the 'sanctity of life' comes from the influence of the Judeo-Christian tradition as much as anything. For some people, surprisingly, it is a quick and easy decision.

[noamnety]

70. No reason it should be "the very last resport"

for dealing with an unplanned pregnancy.

The first resort should be whatever the woman wants most.
The very last resort should be whatever the woman wants least.

[Ignis]

74. Why?

You don't offer any support as to why abortion ought to be the absolute last resort in family planning.

For example, I would think carrying the fetus to term would be the very last option, if you're going to go that route.

Ultimately, however, I think the choice must be up to the pregnant woman. Her choice, her decision when/how, her right to feel however she damn well pleases about the procedure.

[Codeine]

76. The last resort?

Why? It's the least dangerous and most manageable choice.

[snake in the grass]

79. Yes...

...there are options and a woman has the right to choose from them, including abortion. It's simply none of your business.

I repeat, it's simply none of your business.

[lillypaddle]

263. yesssssssss

[Jazzgirl]

83. Why should it be the last option?

If you don't want a baby then you should be able to make your own decisions without worrying about what somebody else thinks you should do about it!

[bridgit]

84. Tying your tubes should be the first option

:thumbsup:

[noamnety]

91. How nice of you to tell people what surgery to get.

How is it progressive to tell people who don't want to be sterilized that they should be anyway?

First option: what the woman wants.
Last option: what the woman doesn't want.

Most offensive option: You deciding what medical procedures should be imposed on people against their will.

I cannot believe you are anti-choice, pro abstinence, you believe it's okay to tell other women that they should get sterilized because it pleases you, and you're here trying to convince us that a billboard providing discounted services to students is offensive.

[redqueen]

93. No shortage of authoritarians on this side of the isle.

Sad when it's women doing it to other women re: this issue, though... one hopes for some solidarity...

[bridgit]

96. Mm, so what's your beef? It's more simple than abortion and can be done on an outpatient basis

You can of course if that is your preference, but I wouldn't advise you to be a fool on this matter. And until you're able to muster that special level of prickly ire for opinions other than your own toward the other dancer in this tango, you will *never* effect the responsibilities of men, and they do have them let's not be silly. Why do you condone women as chattel, subject to the knife not for love but because men don't have the time?

What is most dangerous, is the flip attitudes toward this subject such as your's; that make it possible for they such as Randel Terry to run up behind and stuff these brittle prejudices right down their owner's throats. And if that is what you consider an affirmative Lib/Pro position; to see an entire platform knocked back on it's heels with triangilated assaults on a host of vital, interconnected issues: reproductive rights, human rights, living wages, clean air/clean water, then you have imo missed the boat the train the trolley and the point too.

You probably buy all manner of meaningless ephemera simply because Chinese versions of Madison Ave advertised then sold it to YOU! Congratulations! Now you're just another number reading last month's PeopleMag in a waiting room :thumbsup:

My son wouldn't turn, so I had a C-sec. I suppose that was my choice too, right? It's always a source-of-the-noteworthy to read the knee-jerk opinions of people that only see parts of what they think they're looking at. Tubal Ligation is not 'sterilization' not in the way you meant it:

http://www.tubal-reversal.net/tubal_ligation_fallopian_tube.htm

You chose that word as a way to become incendiary in the course of telling me to shut the hell up. Oh and here is my opinion and not just your shoveling words into my mouth: the time for knee-jerk hysteria on this subject has come & gone, have a lovely day/evening admiring your thoughts

[SemiCharmedQuark]

98. Tubal ligation is considered permanent. I have inquired about having such a procedure done

or the Essure procedure done. No doctor I talked too would do it because I have no children and reversal is not 100%.

[bridgit]

112. And there are atrophies involved...

We have friends that went in-vitro, very expensive, took three tries to get it right - triplets, after fertility drugs 10's upon 10's of thousands of $'s and they're getting a divorce anyhow - choice. And everyone has a right to their own choice, right? And the consequence of that choice. That's the part woefully present here, this blind eye sanctioning of personal irresponsibility

If I could end it all with a warm cup of chamomile tea, an organic shampoo, or a new pair of pattern scissors I would. But whether it lives or dies, sinks or swims, is or isn't, was meant to be or not meant to be there will be someone from our current health-care system standing there to make a profit.

Forward-thinking prevention saves time, lives, resources, hurt feelings *and* money. Not you, but it's odd to see people arguing against it while arguing that the health care system is too expensive, too inaccessible. Some do clearly, but I think Americans have little interest in thinking our demure little anime school girls are doing naughty hentai things in the boys room.

Our Ad guys are much more slick here in America, again not you, but maybe America should start acting as jaded as she thinks she is

[SemiCharmedQuark]

147. No, not everyone has a right to a choice. That was my point.

I don't want children. Ever. I am absolutely positive of that. But no doctor will grant my request to sterilize myself because I don't have children. They don't trust me with my body.

That said, no version of birth control is 100% effective. I use condoms, gel and the pill and I could still get pregnant. I shouldn't be made to feel guilty for controlling my own body and my own life.

[bridgit]

151. I hear you, it is a multi facted consideration was mine...

I likely don't know the doctors you ref so I don't know what if any liabilities, oaths, or religious beliefs they may be adhereing to. If we are to believe current headlines, requested procedures can be some of the more difficult to get approved. Denial of medical request is a show stopper. They trying to lay guilt on you is not their job.

[musette_sf]

128. thank you

for a voice of sanity.

and if the tubes were cauterized, there is very, very little chance of successful reversal.

how disgusting, that this person thinks that sterilization is a birth control option. sick.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

148. Not only that, it's another example of how women aren't in control of their bodies.

I don't want children. I have never wanted children. But because I don't already have children, nobody will grant my request to get Essure. I would sign any waiver.

I try to be as careful as possible, but I am absolutely terrified that I will get pregnant. So what are my options? Abstinence? I'm married.

[musette_sf]

130. dupe

[noamnety]

132. You must have replied to the wrong post

You wrote: "Why do you condone women as chattel, subject to the knife not for love but because men don't have the time?"

That doesn't relate to anything I've said.

Chattel implies women aren't sovereign beings entitled to make their own decisions about their own bodies. That's your position, not mine. Maybe you meant to post a reply to one of your own posts, I don't know. I wouldn't be coercing entire classes of people into getting sterilized, and yes, I will use that word. "Tubal ligation, commonly knows as “getting your tubes tied,” is a surgical sterilization technique for women."

http://www.birth-control-comparison.info/tubalig.htm

When you stop advocating that classes of people have unnecessary and unwanted surgery to suit your whims, let me know.

As for incendiary posts, I believe you lost the right to accuse anyone of that: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6404033&mesg_id=6404532

I was hoping the mods would delete that. But maybe it's good to let it stand as a monument to your respect for women.

[bridgit]

136. Nor does this to me, "I cannot believe you are anti-choice, pro abstinence, you believe it's okay...

"to tell other women that they should get sterilized because it pleases you" That's rubbish. The link you posted above won't open, are you able to edit it?

[noamnety]

141. Those are all things you brought up.

anti-choice - it's clear to every one here you are anti choice, unless others make the choice you want. When you start deciding what should be women's first resort once they have an unplanned pregnancy, what should be their last resort, that's not advocating their choice, it's advocating yours being applied to them.

pro-abstinence - again, something you brought up. Not that you needed to, the post where you talk about girls holding an aspirin between their knees is about as nasty as one can get about young women who are sexually active - or raped, the language you used is about as anti-woman fundie right wing as one can get. Hold an aspirin between your knees? Seriously, you thought that was necessary on DU?

[bridgit]

144. This ridiculous DU brain police stuff is way too kitschy

There's another one threatening Kafka-esque reprisals round here somewhere, but if you don't think *that* looks fucking stupid you're wrong. Way to hang in there with that yada-yada big tent stuff :)

I related a story bout friends of ours, she had issues with her tubes but they used her eggs and his sperm and it was done. So you're continual harping about *tying as a form of forced sterilization upon women* isn't sitting on ground as solid as would be seemed otherwise.

I myself had a C-sec after having chosen life. You're saying that people that do so, or seek alternate procedures - alternate to even they on your tick-list, have no right to be here at DU, an opinion shared by others clearly and that's fine...I just think it's the wrong way to think but if you think that's cool then go for it ~

'Forward-thinking prevention saves time, lives, resources, hurt feelings *and* money. Not you, but it's odd to see people arguing against it while arguing that the health care system is too expensive, too inaccessible. Some do clearly, but I think Americans have little interest in thinking our demure little anime school girls are doing naughty hentai things in the boys room.'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6404033&mesg_id=6406700

[noamnety]

149. Again, I don't know what you are on about.

kafkaesque reprisals?
big tent stuff?

Who were you trying to reply to? That's all unrelated to my posts.

I doesn't matter what some friends of yours did or did not do, the fact that your buddies did IVF is unrelated to whether other women should have to get their tubes tied against their will, or do any other unnecessary surgical procedures that they don't want because it fits some fundie world view.

You wrote: " myself had a C-sec after having chosen life. You're saying that people that do so, or seek alternate procedures - alternate to even they on your tick-list, have no right to be here at DU,"

What? Your comprehension is nonexistent. Nobody has a problem with someone who has had a c-section being on DU. Is that what you understood from my post? Or anyone's post here?

[bridgit]

154. Oh, well, pick it up here they say there's no time like 'the now'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6404033&mesg_id=6407038

Me? Come on - this "whether other women should have to get their tubes tied against their will" is in fact incendiary gibberish and you know it as no one has suggested such a thing, that is on you; but here you are casting twisting dragging this so far afield someone will have needed to have dropped gingerbread crumbs just to find the way back but that you will need to do all on your own as we are talking past one another and I have no interest in that

[uppityperson]

203. Good lord, the stuff that you write. Do you seriously believe half of it?

1. Tubal ligation isn't "more simple than abortion" and, did you knkow, abortions are done on an outpatient basis?
2. Women having access to abortions makes them chattel? W.t.f?
3. You had a c-section, so you say, so......women should not have access to abotions?
4. Tubal ligation isn't sterilization? Um, yes, it is. It can sometimes be reversed, but yes, it is making you sterile.
5. Objecting to your trying to force your morals on others is "knee-jerk hysteria"?

Good grief

[Sheepshank]

150. Is this a religious imperative to you?

I mean, abortion as a last resort seems to imply that you think more highly of the needs of the unviable fetus than emotional and physical and financial needs of the child carrying that fetus. You think people in China dwell on and have that same moral imperative?

[bridgit]

159. I think an once of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Others don't - whatever

I keep waiting for DU to get with the program

3. Improve preventative care:

In order to keep our people healthy and provide more efficient treatment we need to promote smart preventative care, like cancer screenings and better nutrition, and make critical investments in electronic health records, technology that can reduce errors while ensuring privacy and saving lives.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare

As those preventative measures interface with the complexity of health in America, they will touch upon unwanted pregnancy, unwanted children, unwanted procedures, family planning, human interactions, needs, and personal responsibility for them, now...you think...that that's "a religious imperative"...to ---- me? You are joking right?

Well either way have a nice evening it's been lovely gotta go

[moriah]

158. Again, sometimes it's a bit late for that.

And sorry, but tubal ligation is considered permanent. You would suggest that a young girl who happens to get pregnant out of wedlock never have another child, or that any female who happens to not want children right now should never have them, or at least not have them until they can afford a risky reversal?

[Hello_Kitty]

226. Jesus, you are a piece of work.

Newsflash: A lot of women who terminate pregnancies go on to have babies at a later time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. You are aware of the one child policy in China?

Pray tell me you do.

[Maru Kitteh]

179. Yes it IS often a simple and quick decision. It is also often a GOOD decision.

[bridgit]

52. Sew buttons on eggs, aren't you actually saying that cheap, mechanical, doggy-style sex...

is what is 'quick and easy, and has no repercussions' for some little school girl that isn't smart enough to hold an aspirin between her legs cause some "clinic sells a service" somewhere hey! --- how bout drive through clinics like those car washes where the brushes roll over you and jizzy green & purple stuff gets squirted you're rinsed and get your hoo-hoo blown dry on the way out now *that* is a service

[moriah]

160. You gave me multiple visuals in this post... ewww.

... seriously, the one of a 1950s mom telling her daughter that it's up to the girl to "put up the stop sign" and keep a dime squeezed between her knees, so if "anything happened" it was her own fault for not keeping the boys at a further distance was bad enough, I did NOT need the carwash one.

[Hello_Kitty]

161. Typical sex-obsessed anti-choicer. eom

[bridgit]

166. How convenient, ad hominem in a throw away wax box with a little straw eom

[Hello_Kitty]

169. Ad hominem? Hardly. Your "slut-shaming" responses in this thread give you away. eom

[bridgit]

175. Now you're just being ridiculous, the blithe ways in which are skirted...

more complete calls by others for education and preemptive pro-action that will enhance a woman's chances of rather not having to experience such things at all is the true marker here and you are making contributions to it. To argue against prevention is to cut your nose off to spite your face. To give a pass to activity able to diminish access to education & options other than the ones you happen to be holding in your hand at the time is not liberal, nor is it progressive imo so, well, you know - you - in particular now feel free to accuse me of being "sex obsessed" which really is a bizarro thing to key into here but it has nonetheless prompted my folding this little tent in that it is now *my* firm opinion: that it's you needs to relieve some pressure somewhere way more than I do so good luck with that

[Hello_Kitty]

177. Again, your own posts on this thread give you away

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6404033#6404532

[bridgit]

202. MmHm, I recognize the display of emotionally brittle intransigence...

on what appears to be several mercurial issues all rolled into one sticky, gooey ball. And I refer to him as my X. Part of that rif as I've replied was the sort of gibberish I heard from my mom as a kid but that doesn't mean she was sick & twisted that means she was relating to me the way the world related to her this continuum of ideas & opinions back to when sitting on a buckboard playing footsie under a shade tree wearing shoes was still considered sex - not anymore take great comforts for those days are gone forever - another part is based on a rif from some stand-up comics I've known and married to one years back and if you don't think that such matters are subject to such things as social satire then, imo of course, people should to take another look around http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJeNok-lTEw

[Hello_Kitty]

213. If that was supposed to be satire, it wasn't funny

And considering that you were using it in the context of your anti-choice views, it's pretty obvious that you believe the spirit behind it.

[bridgit]

217. Pro education & prevention is anti-choice? Who made you doppelganger pope of this place?

What a fool. You're not here to discuss anything, you're here to plant your little flag into people's skulls. I consider you an 'aggressive', I consider that a call to violence, and I consider *that* to be unaccecptable here but if that's how you spend your time then I suppose you do.

While your continued aggressions are less than welcome even they are subject to satire

[Hello_Kitty]

219. Go peddle that bullshit on an anti-choice site

I'm sure they'll tolerate your drama queen antics.

[bridgit]

167. I know huh, I trip when I drive my *car* through one of those things but thanks for getting it...

If I had $5 for every time I heard that aspirin routine from my mom I'd have a handful of money no doubt...but she isn't "sex obsessed", she's just from Indiana

[moriah]

170. Now anytime I drive through one...

... I'm going to have a hard time not thinking of the hentai/bukake stuff you referenced in another post. Ewwwwwwww... especially because in my area the suds are not green or purple, but white.

Ewwww.

EEEEWWWWWWWWW....

[anigbrowl]

172. Whaaat? Get therapy you sad person

[uppityperson]

204. Your posts make me think you are very ignorant of sexuality and of abortions

On the other hand, they also male me wish I could get pregnant since the scenarios you present sound much more fun than any reality I've ever participated in

[omega minimo]

264. "jizzy"?

[Scout]

28. "As if it is a good thing, easy and quick and with no repercussions."

in many situations, it is just that.

certainly far preferable to squeezing out a crotch-dropping you don't want and giving it away to strangers to raise.

[Brigid]

31. So a child is a mere "crotch dropping" to you?

And like it or not, it's a child we're talking about here.

[Scout]

39. blah, blah, blah, yadda yadda

if you don't want to be pregnant, yes, it's a crotch-dropping.

it is the same thing whether you call it a precious pre-born poppet or i call it a crotch-dropping ... it doesn't change what it is.

and what are those options instead of abortion, hmmmmm?

[Brigid]

44. Adoption, contraception, or maybe even abstinence.

If you are going to be sexually active, you have to take responsibility from the start. Like it or not, that is our job, since we're the ones who get pregnant. Men, unfortunately, too often don't take responsibility for their part in it. That doesn't change the fact that it's a child, not a crotch-dropping.

[peace frog]

58. Read much?

"wrong.
once you are pregnant, because, say, your contraception failed or your husband just won't take no for an answer...

what are the options?

there are none. you either squeeze it out or terminate."

[Scout]

88. why do people who say "you have to take responsbility" always

mean that you have to give birth and then give it up or keep it? why is giving birth the only way to "take responsibility"?

[Hello_Kitty]

163. Because your belly gets big and every one knows what a dirty, dirty slut you are.

When you have an abortion you are hiding the evidence of your "crime".

[uppityperson]

211. Exactly. Thank you for putting it so succinctly

women are sluts for having gotten pregnant. no matter if it was from a contraceptive failure, a rape, or even from not using contraception. if she is pregnant, she is an irresponsible slut.

wild that people here think that, but have read similar anti-female stuff from that poster in the past also

[Le Taz Hot]

251. Yeah, I could never figure that out.

I thought terminating an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy when one wasn't ready/able to have a baby WAS taking responsibility. Should we start listing the horror stories of mommies who didn't believe in abortions but didn't seem to have a problem dropping their little bundles of joy into the nearest trash can?

[musette_sf]

109. sorry, not into shaming women

about a legal medical procedure. at DU we are supposed to respect women's reproductive health care choices. your posts in this thread have a sanctimonious reek about them.

i like the ad. i like the fact that it advertises a medical procedure and offers a discount.

i'm sick and tired of all the guilting and blaming that go on over a legal medical procedure that should be guilt-free and blame-free.

[Brigid]

113. And yours reek of selfishness and narcissism.

This is not a simple or painless issue, no matter how you slice it. I have a right to my opinion without being demonized for it. You do know I;m not going to change my mind any more than you would change yours, right?

[musette_sf]

114. oh, but it's okay for you to demonize women

seeking legal medical procedures?

:puke:

FAIL

[Brigid]

115. I'm not demonizing anyone.

But actions do have consequences -- especially this one.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Brigid]

117. Be my guest.

[musette_sf]

119. why are you on DU anyway?

from the DU rules:

"Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office."

"Do not engage in anti-social, disruptive, or trolling behavior."

your posts blaming and shaming women are anti-social and disruptive, and most definitely non-progressive.

[Brigid]

120. Why? Because they don't agree with yours?

Disagreements are going to happen. That's a fact of life.

[musette_sf]

121. on HuffPo or AlterNet they don't have to agree with mine

but on DU, when it comes to reproductive health care for women, as a matter of fact, yes, they DO have to agree with mine.

women's reproductive health care rights are part of the Democratic party platform. be Dem, or be gone.

[Name removed]

185. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hello_Kitty]

164. But it's not selfish and narcissistic to want to impose your sexual morals on others.

:eyes:

[Maru Kitteh]

184. The difference is you are wrong. It is a painless and simple issue for most. If you're having

mental issues about it, that is YOUR problem and you should work on that.

[musette_sf]

118. news flash:

**NO** birth control method is 100% effective.

women have an equal right to enjoyment of sex for sex's sake.

no woman should have to live in fear of being blamed and shamed by people like you, just for enjoying sex without procreation in mind.

edited to add for the clue-impaired: WHILE USING BIRTH CONTROL, OF FREAKING COURSE!!

the ad is GREAT and i approve 101%.

[Hello_Kitty]

183. Me too.

It's sad that we can't even imagine an ad offering cheap abortions here in the U.S. It's a testament to the power that the anti-choice prudes wield.

[Luminous Animal]

182. And part of that responsibility is the option of having an abortion.

Even God allows for that option. In fact, God makes women suffer through crotch-droppings without their consent. It is fucking horrific for women who want children but God denies them that pleasure and forces them to crotch-drop their child.

[uppityperson]

208. and getting an abortion is....irresponsible always?

imagine that.

[Codeine]

77. It's not child.

It's a blastula, a lump of nothing that might someday be a child if you so choose. Calling that a child is like calling a cumshot a child.

[Hello_Kitty]

162. Until she gets older and has sex. Then she's a whore who should be punished with a baby, according

to you.

[The Stranger]

195. No, it isn't a child. And it has never in history been recognized as human enjoying full rights.

[uppityperson]

206. a woman aborts a "child". thank you for clarifying

now you are being very straightforward on your views of abortion.

[redqueen]

215. Yep. (nt)

[Matariki]

47. Why should there be 'repercussions'?

'moral' punishment?

[Codeine]

80. You should feel bad

because your guilt makes them feel good. You have a responsibility to reinforce their moral superiority.

[Codeine]

72. It is a good thing.

It is usually easy, normally quick, and with no repercussions save those society thrusts upon the woman involved.

Standard medical procedure. Get over it.

[musette_sf]

125. "Just because I am not interested in standing out in front of a clinic with tape over my mouth"

no, just interested in posting anti-choice rhetoric in a forum where it is explicitly not welcome.

[Maru Kitteh]

178. Abortion is often a good thing, easy and quick w/no repercussions

It's called REPRODUCTIVE HEALTHCARE.

Duh.

[Why Syzygy]

186. In China ...

it is more than "promoted". It is mandated for more than one pregnancy. These girls only get one shot at a legal live birth.

[yearning_4_zion_IL]

200. I agree with you 100%. Some like to jump down your throat if you admit this, though

but although I have never had an abortion, I know from others that it can be no trip to the beach. I have a friend who is haunted by hers. She ended up having two boys but says she always wonders about the other one...I know a man whose girlfriend had one. They were just out of high school and I guess he wasn't ready. Turns out he got married to a woman who cannot have kids and he wonders if it's his karma because he agreed to the abortion.

[skygazer]

216. And I know several people who had abortions and had no serious repercussions from it

Who went on to have families and happy lives. I'm one of them and I've never for a moment in my life regretted my decision to terminate a pregnancy that came at a time in my life when giving birth would have caused terrible trauma.

For every story like yours, there is one like mine. Maybe more. You say having an abortion can be no trip to the beach - well, having a child can be no trip to the beach either. The key is choice - not having someone tell you that you can or cannot "take responsibility" in the manner in which you choose.

[Why Syzygy]

271. Personally ..

I've known more women who had some guilt feelings. People confide in me because I do not judge.

I'm still pro-choice, and just the fact of knowing women who had a different experience from yours doesn't change that.

[EOTE]

207. Very flawed logic you've got there.

Would you have a problem with a hospital advertising half off heart surgery with a student ID as well? Would they be promoting heart surgery as a good thing with no repercussions? Students who find themselves in the position of needing an abortion quite often can't afford one. It puts them in between the proverbial rock and a hard place. I don't see a problem with this at all.

[CTyankee]

225. The Chinese think differently about this. I had some very well educated Chinese women in my ESOL

class a few years back. One of them became pregnant and announced rather matter of factly "I think I'm going to keep (the pregnancy) it." It seemed a bit casual to my American ears but the other Chinese women just nodded and it was no big deal. Of course, she might have already learned that she was having a boy and that probably would be a big factor. However, these were women with advanced degrees whose husbands were Post Docs at Yale (one was a Visiting Scholar to Yale Law School). Their English was very good; the only reason they were taking my class was to learn American idioms (they all watched Sex and the City!). I'm sure they were very privileged back in China...

[uppityperson]

201. but young women will get pg JUST so they can take advantage of this offer

see?

I don't either. It seems fine to me. I young women want an abortion, give them a discount IF they are students sounds like a good policy to me

[Xenotime]

205. Exactly.

[redqueen]

224. Why should there be any shame?

It's a simple medical procedure.

[Warpy]

32. Oh, for crying out loud!

People who are screaming about "encouraging abortion" are generally concerned that it's encouraging sex!

What makes people uncomfortable is that the sweet flower of innocent young womanhood is fucking and this ad acknowledges it.

Letting young, scared girls know there is a way out is a good idea. Giving impoverished students a break on the price is a good idea.

It sure beats forcing them to go through with a pregnancy they don't want while ending their ability to better themselves through education.

[Greyhound]

176. Another casualty of the global mind-fuck industry.

Very sad to see it, and never worth the effort to help fix it.

[musette_sf]

122. - 1K

:puke:

[northernlights]

248. China has a serious, serious, serious overpopulation problem

As in, they face 3 choices:

1. mass starvation, or
2. take over other countries to get their resources, or
3. cut their birth rate drastically.

This problem is made worse by a culture that historically pushed for very large families, preferably sons, to work the farms.

They are fighting thousands of years of cultureal indoctrination, but they only have a short time to cut their population.

I'm no fan of the one-child policy and forced abortions, but I also was not a fan of girl babies being dumped in orphanages, sometimes with their backs deliberately broken, or murdered, by their disappointed parents.

I also think the one-child policy is preferable to mass starvation. And definitely preferable to war if they start taking over other countries to feed their own.

I have no problem whatsoever with them advertising low-cost abortions to students. That, too, I think is preferable to starvation.

[anigbrowl]

2. not in my book. Most students don't have much income.

[Motown_Johnny]

3. if they were not being charged then there would be no need for a student discount

[Hekate]

4. That's China, not the US. China, home of the One Child policy. China, home of forced abortions...

... if you exceed your quota. China, resource for any number of girl "orphans" adopted out to the West. China, where the number of young men now far exceeds the number of young women.

China does a lot of things that cross the line.

Hekate

[lightningandsnow]

9. Good point...

[Kadie]

13. Great post.

I like the way you put that.

:thumbsup:

[Glorfindel]

22. As an impartial observer with no personal stake in the future...

I think the one-child policy is very wise. The whole world should adopt it, in my opinion, for the betterment of the planet and the human race.

[lightningandsnow]

43. Are you serious?

Really?

[Statistical]

46. You are very much misinformed.

There are a lot of catastrophic problems facing China in the next 20 years due to the stupid policy.

[Spider Jerusalem]

54. There are a lot of catastrophic problems facing all of humanity, one way or another.

Either there are too many people for strained and limited resources like oil and water, or there aren't enough of working age to support the older population and maintain living standards. Either way, China probably aren't the only ones who're fucked.

[BolivarianHero]

143. Not the policy itself...

Beijing did to little to force out the misogyny that is part of China's reactionary pre-revoultionary culture. But given that Mao supported the coup that had brought Pinochet to power, I am unsurprised.

[omega minimo]

265. 4th post points out the cultural aspect, yet the flamefests rage

Seems like that would be a relevant part of the discussion. :shrug: thanks Hekate.

I didn't open it up earlier, just didn't anticipate a good outcome..................

[lightningandsnow]

5. Not offended at all.

Abortions cost a lot of money, which creates a big accessibility issue especially for students and people with low income.

I don't see anything wrong with promoting abortion as one of many choices when it comes to reproductive health.

[ceile]

6. A tad shocking, yes.

Crossing the line, no. Of course, there would never be an ad like that here.

[Barack_America]

7. "Support Abortion, Shop Wal-Mart"

For some reason this was the first thing to come to mind.

Oh if only the fundies realized what their love of cheap Chinese crap supported. They don't care about the human rights abuses or the destruction of American manufacturing, but the fetuses, that may be a different story.

[Greyhound]

8. Finally! Something good to import from China. n/t

:kick: & R

[AuntPatsy]

10. The only way one would find this offensive is if they were against womans' rights..

[Hekate]

50. The Chinese are sort of against human rights, but that's another story. nt

[LeftinOH]

11. Free contraceptives would be an even better offer -n/t

[Kadie]

17. Agreed!

:thumbsup:

[Brigid]

19. I could get behind that.

It's a lot simpler.

[uppityperson]

212. and if those contraceptives fail, then what?

[Book Lover]

14. What line?

The one where women alone are considered responsible for unintended pregnancy? The one that says you may only get pregnant within the confines of a state-sanctioned marriage, and if you ever get pregnant in any other circumstance, you're a filthy whore who deserves poverty and unhappiness?

Please. More hair-tearing from the apologists. We're here. We have uteruses. Get over it.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

15. Remember....your talking about China.

You know, the same China that limits how many children any family can have. Been doing this for years & years.

I say it's none of our business what they do "over their".

[omega minimo]

266. Post #8 also states the obvious cultural aspect, left out of DU's flamefest

:yourock:

[peace frog]

18. Crosses what line?

Evidently abortion is legal in China and this particular hospital has arranged to make it more affordable for students. So?

[Statistical]

48. Deceptive advertising maybe? n/t

[peace frog]

57. In what way?

.

[Statistical]

66. The implication that it is painless and will never affect your work or studies.

While abortion is a routine medical procedure it is still considered minor surgery and has associated risks (relatively low but no still significant) and pain is routine.

In the US a making that claim about something as simple as teeth cleaning procedure would likely be sued for deceptive advertising much less a surgical procedure.

[peace frog]

73. By all means..

..take that up with the Chinese hospital posthaste. I'm sure they will give your concerns every consideration.

[Codeine]

78. Many abortions aren't surgical.

Early abortions are normally done with a couple of pills taken a day or two apart. Then the equivalent of a crampy, heavy period. Done.

[girl gone mad]

145. lol.

I'm sure it's a lot less painful than carrying the pregnancy to term and I'm also certain it will have much less of an affect on studies and work. It's insane to think otherwise. Good for the advertisers.

[sinkingfeeling]

20. Not at all. Reasonable. Did the US ever get the discount on contraceptives for college coeds back?

Yes, I found that it was corrected this spring.

http://health.usnews.com/blogs/on-women/2009/03/11/cheap-birth-control-once-again-for-college-women.html

And last night, Congress passed a provision in its massive omnibus spending bill that allows pharmaceutical companies to reinstate discounts on birth control pills and other hormonal contraceptives that they had previously offered to family planning clinics and college campus health clinics.

[The Straight Story]

21. Maybe they should have a buy one get one free, or get Billy Mays to do the ads

:) (yeah, I know he died but with video editing software he could sell them anything for 19.95)

[ZombieHorde]

24. I don't see anything wrong with the ad. nt

[Quantess]

26. China is taking a stand against overpopulation.

And if the pregnant girl/woman is a student, then China would rather she devote all her energy to school. It's not offensive when you consider their priorities.

[daedalus_dude]

27. I thought under communism abortions were free?

:shrug:

[musette_sf]

107. ......

:eyes:

[Quantess]

165. No they're only free under Obamacare.

:sarcasm:

[Scout]

34. it doesn't bother me one bit

it's better than than stupid ads on the bus stop benches for the fake clinics, i see those all the time in poor areas and student ghettos here.

[Libertas1776]

35. Well

even if she can't afford the discount, they can always wait until she is 8 or 9 months pregnant and the local municipality goes over their "quota" on pregnancies, then inject her with chemicals that kills the fetus (actually more like baby at this point), and force her into labor and quickly dispose of said fetus in order to remain under their quota limit. China sure is a great little place to have an abortion, isn't it? :sarcasm:

[Cleita]

41. I'm sure China gives a hoot what we think about this.

They have no line to cross in their own country. Our laws and our morals are of no concern to them.

[Statistical]

45. "won't hurt, it's quick, ... it won't affect your studies or your work"

yeah it crosses the lines. for deceptive advertising aimed at an impressionable and scared population if nothing else.

[toadzilla]

55. have you ever had an abortion?

because that's pretty much a true accurate description, assuming there are no complications.

[Statistical]

59. All abortions are painless? Wow "learned" something new today. n/t

[toadzilla]

64. with the aid of anesthesia, its true. not much pain is involved.

[Statistical]

68. no pain afterwards?

no chance of complications (i.e. won't affect studies or work)?

Hardly. It is deceptive. It minimizes the risk and pain associated with this minor surgical procedure.

[cherokeeprogressive]

99. Painless vs "not much pain is involved" = NO PAIN?

What type of math is necessary to come up with THAT conclusion?

[Fleshdancer]

67. If the majority of their clients experience little to no pain, then the ad isn't deceptive

Besides, the ad isn't replacing the actual conversation that the woman would have with her doctor whom, I assume, would inform her of what risks may occur.

[Statistical]

69. I didn't say it was a conversation for the doctor.

The ad also doesn't state little pain or manageable pain it states "NO PAIN". If pain exists prior, during or after the procedure then by the very definition of the word it is deceptive advertising.

Although complications are relatively rare (at least in the US) they do occur and thus "most women have no disruptions in their studies or work" would be accurate BUT that isn't what the ad states.

Deceptive advertising covers the advertisement. You can't remove liability by lying in the ad and then later having a doctor explain the lies at the office.

[cherokeeprogressive]

101. "won't hurt" DOES NOT = "little to no pain".

Won't hurt means IT WON'T HURT, which is it won't hurt in ANY WAY whatsoever.

Sounds like my old football coach: "rub some dirt on it and get your ass back out there".

[Fleshdancer]

190. and if most clients don't experience pain, then the ad is not deceptive

The idea that an advertisement for any product or service could make a claim that is correct 100% of the time seems odd to me...especially for something as subjective as pain. :shrug:

[blueamy66]

191. Didn't hurt at all.

Is that okay?

[uppityperson]

214. Read it again "that's pretty much a true accurate description, assuming there are no complications."

I learned you don't read well before replying

[EndersDame]

188. A typical abortion takes less than 5 minutes

[Fleshdancer]

49. It openly acknowledges the very issues that women worry about

As far as an advertisement goes, it does a good job of quickly informing its target audience of the discount, safety concerns, and recovery time of an elective procedure...something we wouldn't blink an eye at if it advertised fertility treatments or tubal ligation.

[redqueen]

51. Why do so many people hate women?

That's what I wonder when I see/think of the objections to this ad.

*sigh*

[Liberal_in_LA]

61. +1

[musette_sf]

110. + 1

[scarletwoman]

123. +1

[Dramarama]

257. Pretty blanket statement

There are many women against abortion whether it be religious beliefs are different version of the definition of life.

[frebrd]

56. It's the Chinese's business.....eom

[Tim01]

60. It's Chinas business, not ours. nt

[and-justice-for-all]

65. I second that...nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

62. Oh NO! Their encouraging naughty Chinese girls to have sex!!

They, like their American counterparts must be punished!

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noamnety]

92. racism, sexism, pedophelia

were you going for the trifecta with that post?

[and-justice-for-all]

63. Does not bother me at all, I do not find it offensive

or going to far.

[Terry in Austin]

85. Hey, it's a cultural thing. Gotta love the Chinese!

There's kind of a blunt pragmatism that can startle sniffy Americans sometimes. For example, it's not uncommon for a Chinese person to ask the most casual acquaintance how much they make or how old they are.

Scale up that sensibility, apply it to a social health issue, and you have a very straightforward way of dealing with unwanted pregancies -- no BS. (Well, a little BS: the ad has a certain amount of Madison Avenue to it, but we can chalk that up to global corporatization.)

[MellowDem]

86. China could give a shit about the sanctity of human life...

so this ad crosses no line over there. When you view your populace as nothing more than automans to run your grisly machine, anything that improves efficiency and profit is good. If China ever got into a war and needed a boost in population, you could bet that the government would make it illegal to have an abortion grant lots of subsidies to those that had male babies.

[Terry in Austin]

87. What country are we talking about, again?

...anything that improves efficiency and profit is good.

[bridgit]

89. This one, but I don't think these guys are worrying about abortion services

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJjeDfZW1yc

[MellowDem]

153. China's political system is much more about corporate interests

than even here in America. And that is saying something.

[Jazzgirl]

135. Shit, even I don't believe in the sanctity of human life.

Who the fuck ever said humans had more life rights than any other living creature??!!?? i have never figured that out.

[MellowDem]

152. Whoever said that you can't have both?

Sanctity of human life doesn't mean the you can't value all other life as well. But if you don't value human life then you most likely won't value any other living creature either.

[Liquorice]

90. I don't have a problem with it. nt

[REP]

94. Students need affordable choices (well everyone does)

Students are often broke. Why not offer a discount to them? It's not "get an abortion and pass your exams guaranteed!" it's a discount on a medical service for those who need it.

[Taverner]

97. Good. Unlike many pro choicers, I am 100% PRO ABORTION

As in, if you can't care for the kid, abort it.

We have too many damn people in this world anyway.

Overpopulation is the 800 lb gorilla in the room.

So thus, I am pro abortion.

[Geek_Girl]

102. It's a chinese add they don't have the social stigma of abortions

that we have here in the United States. So it's probably very appropriate for China.

Personally I find it kind of refreshing to see an advertisement that advertises a women's medical procedure in a clear concise way and at a discount.

[musette_sf]

108. + 1

[chrisa]

103. It's not encouraging abortion.

It's encouraging people who want to get an abortion to get it there.

The idea that this poster would suddenly make somebody who wants to have their baby get an abortion because it's cheaper is ridiculous.

[NashVegas]

104. Are You Not Familiar With China's "One Child" Policy?

In a country where people are limited in the number of children they are able to legally spawn, carrying a fetus to term when you are unprepared to be a parent has drastically different impact on peoples' lives than it does here. If you only get one shot, better make it good.

That ad wouldn't cut it in the US, and I'd be uncomfortable if I saw it around here. But I live in a different reality from a 15 YO Chinese girl.

[krabigirl]

105. Nope..it's China. They think differently about abortion there.

[David Zephyr]

124. I can't answer your question until you define what "the line" is that could be crossed.

I see nothing wrong with the ad.

You ask if it crosses "the line". What line would that be?

[Kadie]

134. That seems to be the question.

Everyone has a different 'line'.

By the way, it wasn't my question... I just copied and pasted from the link. :blush: It is a blog at the SFGate.

:hi:

[Bucky]

126. Unless girls are going out a getting pregnant just to take advantage of these great deals...

...I'm pretty sure this isn't "encouraging" abortion. It's demystifying it.

[SmileyRose]

129. +1

It's a medical procedure, no more no less. 50% off an abortion isn't any different than 50% off a dental visit - from a moral standpoint.

[noamnety]

139. Oh, I bet they are.

I know lots of people who go out of their way to get high blood pressure specifically because Walmart advertises low prices on prescription medication for that. ;)

[Jazzgirl]

133. No.

It isn't our culture and we don't have the right to pass judgment on anybody else anyway. I mean, we start unnecessary wars and shit. So what a country decides a woman really does have control over her body!

[UnseenUndergrad]

137. I promised myself never to post on another one of thse threads...

...but meh.

This poster seems to be mostly about pricing options for termination surgury... and despite the country in question being a tad of a nightmare in regards to Reproductive freedom, I don't really see the problem.

But the pose of the girl in the ad is bloody cheesy. SO Cultural Revolution!

Indifferent to the message, critical of the layout.

[burning rain]

138. Seems like a good useful ad to me.

Students are among those more likely to have an abortion if they get pregnant and they have less income than most, so it is natural to appeal to them directly in an abortion ad.

[UnseenUndergrad]

140. Of course, of course...

It's just that I find the visual a tad cheesey and cliched (the whole "revolutionary salute" thing).

Guess it was done on a government budget.

Other than that, I don't get all the hullabaloo.

(And just asking, when did they junk the dumpy Mao-suits for the skirts? The clothing just makes it lok a bit... silly.)

(edit.. oh dang, I thought you were replying to me. D'oh!)

[Greyhound]

173. There are more than a few anti-choice authoritarians here and in the party at large. n/t

[bridgit]

146. Well now there you go: it's colored like an Obama campaign website...

Or that corporation from WALL-E, so that part is working as planned


It conveys several positive themes: onward & upward looking up into the blue sky of one's own unencumbered future with 'open-ness', invitation, prosperity and happiness intact and the services and procedures that will make it all possible

[Kansas Wyatt]

155. Fundies think Made In China is #1 by going to Wal Mart.

Sorry... I had to plug it.

[proteus_lives]

168. I think it's disgusting.

[Codeine]

171. So do I!

Sixty percent off for students is the least they can do! :evilgrin:

[proteus_lives]

174. The Chinese government would probably go as high as 75% off....

for aborting female babies.

[Statistical]

193. With a free gender test thrown in.....

no reason to abort a valuable son just those useless daughters.

[redqueen]

198. Why?

[proteus_lives]

218. I have no problem with abortion.

It's a necessary thing and I would never question that. But I believe that it's a serious decision and I think that the ad is attempting to minimize it. Maybe we having a cultural misunderstanding situation here but the ad makes me uncomfortable.

[redqueen]

221. It's just a simple procedure... how is it being 'minimized'?

I think this country suffers from decades of demagoguery on this issue by the fundies.

Many pregnancies abort spontaneously... it's really not a big deal, or worthy in any way of the amount of overwrought drama that's foisted on this issue by those with an anti-woman agenda.

[proteus_lives]

228. It is a just a simple procedure and it's also a serious decision.

I don't disagree with it or even the half off thing. But I'm just expressing what feelings the advertising is rousing in me. Like I said, it could be cultural thing but the school-girl image? Ugh.

[lillypaddle]

189. Abortion should be legal and safe

and available to low income women, and I assume that's what the students are. It's best to give contraceptive counseling at the clinic visit, and the options should be presented: keeping the child, having the child and putting it up for adoption, or abortion. I see nothing wrong with this ad. Frankly, I'm a little surprised that so many find it "disgusting." What are you saying, that abortion should be legal, safe, and readily available, just don't tell anyone? Sheesh.

I worked in women's reproductive health care for almost 15 years. I've seen all kinds of women presenting with horrible circumstances. It was very rare to find someone who used abortion as a method of contraception, and it was almost always a heart wrenching decision. I realize this is supposed to be about the ad and not abortion per se; however, I see nothing wrong with informing women what is available to them. Is it the "half price" that is offending many here? Would you feel better if it advertised services for full price? :mad:

[EndersDame]

209. I have worked in a clinic that provides abortions as well

I think every one who thinks this ad is disgusting should spend some time working in one to see what these women (every age and background imanginable) are going through themselves. I worked at a non profit clinic which shall rename nameless and have witnessed women using assistance from a private fund to help low income women, and still using crumpled small denomination bills that you know they worked and scrimped for. I think that anyone bemoaning that they have a little bit easier time to get a prodcedure they don't want but they need because of circumstances should undergo serious psychiatric evaluation for their lack of basic human empathy

[lillypaddle]

262. Right on

it's not as cut and dried as people think. CHOICE means just that. You can't be pro choice and then have a bunch of ifs and buts ... seem like many here are pro choice as long as you don't have to get down and dirty about it. It's a complicated issue. The bottom line is that the woman has the right to choose, and should have all available options explained. After that, butt the hell out!

[The Stranger]

194. THERE ARE TOO MANY HUMAN BEINGS ON THE PLANET.

OVERPOPULATION IS THE BIGGEST ECOLOGICAL AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROBLEM WE FACE.

SOMEHOW, PEOPLE NEED TO FACE THIS.

[47of74]

197. Stop yelling

[fascisthunter]

220. Nope... not anymore than an ad regarding surgery

or any other medical proceedure. I see this as a good thing.

[redqueen]

222. That's the thing... due to all the demagoguery, people don't see it as a simple procedure.

They think of all the BS that's been spouted by fundies for ages.

[fascisthunter]

229. I say fuck'em.... fuckem all....

they have no right telling any woman what they can and can't do.

It's time for these self-righteous control freaks to leave people the fuck alone and start internalizing their own hell.

[redqueen]

231. No, they don't...

I wish they would examine their need to stick their noses into women's private business, and do some serious self-improvement.

[armyowalgreens]

230. While I fully support womens rights, I don't think abortion is automatically...

just like "any other medical procedure".


I don't know how that effects my view on the ad. On one level, I can understand objection. But on another level, the ad seems perfectly reasonable.

But I think it's wrong to discount objections to the ad by downplaying the significance of abortion.

[redqueen]

232. What "significance"? Abortions happen spontaneously all the time.

The fundies have been demagoguing this issue for a long time... but this really isn't such a drama-infused issue as many seem to believe.

[armyowalgreens]

233. Just because it can happen naturally does not mean it isn't significant.

I'm not sure why you think natural acts cannot be significant.

[redqueen]

234. I'm saying it's not automatically as emotionally loaded as so many assume.

Yes, for some, losing a baby is traumatic... for many others, they don't even realize they were pregnant.

Assuming that *all* abortions are traumatic and life-changing and blah blab blah is IMO internalizing fundie BS.

[armyowalgreens]

236. But it seems as though you might be making the mistake of going to the other extreme...

It is not automatically just like any other procedure. It is up to the woman just how significant the act is. To some it might be very hard to make the choice. To others, it might be fairly easy.

[redqueen]

238. Nobody is assuming it's easy.

What referring to it as a 'simple medical procedure' does is de-fuse it... and RELIEVE these women of the BURDEN of the brainwashing.

Unless it's our goal to burden women with guilt, and maintain it in those who are alaready struggling with it, of course.

[armyowalgreens]

241. I don't want to burden women with guilt.

Like I said, it may or may not be a significant act. That is up to the woman.

[redqueen]

242. When you parrot that nonsense...

that it's 'significant' by default, you are doing it. You are assisting in the brainwashing that sends the message that abortion is morally wrong.

It is not morally wrong. It is the woman's body, and it is her choice, and she should never be made to feel guilty for making it.

[armyowalgreens]

244. What nonsense have I "parroted"?

I never said abortion is always significant. I said it was up to the woman.

[redqueen]

247. "downplaying the significance of abortion"

Sorry, but no. You said it right there...

[armyowalgreens]

252. Oh that's my fault I should have been more clear...

"I don't know how that effects my view on the ad. On one level, I can understand objection. But on another level, the ad seems perfectly reasonable.

But I think it's wrong to discount objections to the ad by downplaying the significance of abortion."


I was talking about people objecting to the ad because they viewed abortion as significant. I should have been more clear by saying "potential" significance.

[redqueen]

254. Or possible significance, yes.

Sorry I jumped down your throat.

I personally have that "I'm offended" reaction to ads about plastic surgery... they offend the fuck out of me, but nobody ever rails against the way it's treated so casually in advertisements. Grr.

[noiretextatique]

237. thank you...it's utter fucking nonsense

to harp on and on about the "significance" of spontaneous abortions or any other abortions.

[noiretextatique]

235. what is so "significant" about it?

:eyes:

[armyowalgreens]

239. You are aborting a fetus that, when left untouched, would likely develop...

into a human being. While I think it has no legal ramifications, to some it poses a moral significance.

If you do not abort the fetus, the future potential of that fetus could greatly alter your life.

[redqueen]

240. OK, so you've not only internalized the BS, you're spreading it.

*sigh*

I hope you don't jack off... cause you know, every sperm cell you waste could have been given a chance to pair with an egg, and blossom into blah blah *retch* blah blah *puke*.

[armyowalgreens]

243. sigh...well you missed the point and jumped to conclusions...

Like I said, it is up to the woman to decide whether or not she finds abortion to be significant. I don't think she should be pulled in either direction by people "trying to get the word out".


Comparing sperm to a fetus is downright absurd. Even the most hated modern utilitarianist, Peter Singer, has admitted to the potential significant nature of abortion.


I'm sure there are women that get an abortion without thinking twice. There are also women that want to carry to term. But I'm also sure there are women in the middle who are unsure of which path they want to take. And, whether or not you want to admit it, making the decision one way or another can have drastically different effects on her future.

This has nothing to do with fundamental "abortion is murder" bullshit. This is simply facing the reality of the situation.

[redqueen]

246. *potential*... that is what ties sperm to a fetus.

Both have 'potential'... the only difference is that the fetus is further along in the process.

The reality of the situation is that this issue has been demagogued to death to please fundies, and it's fucking sick.

Your repeating that women are affected differently changes nothing - it is not inherently some dramatic, life-changing event, and that is that. Yes, SOME feel differently... that does not justify treating ALL abortions or the issue itself as if that is the default setting for women... and acting as if it does is assisting the fundies with their woman-hating bullshit.

[armyowalgreens]

250. Sperm has no potential...

Without interaction with an egg, the natural chain of events will lead to its demise. A fetus that is left undisturbed will likely develop into a living being.

I know you are probably use to discussing this with stupid fundies, but I am not one of them. I don't think masturbation is wrong and I don't think abortion is wrong.

But I recognize the difference between the two.


"it is not inherently some dramatic, life-changing event, and that is that"

Okay, I agree with you.


"Yes, SOME feel differently... that does not justify treating ALL abortions or the issue itself as if that is the default setting for women"

Okay, I agree with you.



I'm not really sure why you are getting so defensive. We pretty much are in agreement.

[redqueen]

253. Because even though we mostly agree...

you still said "the significance of abortion"... when it is not, by default, significant.

That is something that the fundies in both parties and independent fundies as well have drummed into our national psyche for far too long, and it set me off. Sorry if it seemed I was attacking you... it is these ideas that I intended to attack.

As for the sperm/fetus argument... you said it yourself... 'Without interaction with an egg'... YOU have chosen to deny that sperm the chance to interact with an egg, thereby wasting it's *potential*. Does that make it any clearer? It's the potential that is waved around at women when discussing abortions... and if we're going to make a big deal out of *potential* life, then why stop at the fetus? There is absolutely no logical reason to do so. Potential life is potential life, no matter the stage.

[armyowalgreens]

255. Okay I get what you are saying...

But I don't have to choose to deny my sperm from interacting with an egg. Fertilization is a choice. It involves action

A fetus developing into a living being is not a choice so it involves no action. It is abortion that involves action.

That is the difference. But I think it's pointless to argue technicalities like this because it has no bearing on the legality of abortion.

[redqueen]

256. That's not how the fundies view it...

by masturbating instead of 'saving your seed' for a woman, you're choosing not to give it a chance.

Just like any woman who ends a pregnancy that might have ended spontaneously down the line is doing.

But yeah... mostly pointless. Good thought exercise though.

[armyowalgreens]

258. Well I think we can all agree on one thing...

Fuck fundamentalists.

[redqueen]

259. LOL

Yes. :)

[Deja Q]

223. It does. Because school uniforms are WRONG.

:hide:

[philosophie_en_rose]

227. Abortions should be free.

:shrug:

[dembotoz]

245. why are we all in a froth over some stupid ad in china??????

I am and will always be pro choice.

That setting in my soul might even be more basic than the setting that makes me say i am a democrat.

Do i feel a need to defend what some silly hospital is doing on the other side of the world????

No.

[redqueen]

249. Puzzling isn't it?

All that fundie propaganda has worked like a charm.

[yost69]

261. Agreed. Has nothing to do with the u.s. why do we care?

[Canuckistanian]

267. Whose "line" is it crossing?

Abortion is legal in most countries and not controversial at all.

In bad taste? Debatable.

[spoony]

268. Always nice when DU and China line up ethically.

Safe. Legal. And RARE. As in, not the subject of a sale like it's a goddamn futon.

[EndersDame]

269. It is so nice when DU and the Right Wing line up ethically

Shouldn't low income women have access to abortions as well .I have worked in a non profit womens health provider(shall remain nameless) and have seen women make that choice. I guarantee you not one of them made that choice like it was making a furniture purchase. I suggest you volunteer at a clinic to hold hands while women are undergoing the procedure get some first hand experience and then make judgment calls