I expect all the people that bashed Obama over torture prosecution to issue a mea culpa....

[scheming daemons]

... but I won't hold my breath:

Holder to Appoint Prosecutor to Investigate CIA Terror Interrogations

Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. has decided to appoint a prosecutor to examine nearly a dozen cases in which CIA interrogators and contractors may have violated anti-torture laws and other statutes when they allegedly threatened terrorism suspects, according to two sources familiar with the move.

Holder is poised to name John Durham, a career Justice Department prosecutor from Connecticut, to lead the inquiry, according to the sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the process is not complete.

Durham's mandate, the sources added, will be relatively narrow: to look at whether there is enough evidence to launch a full-scale criminal investigation of current and former CIA personnel who may have broken the law in their dealings with detainees. Many of the harshest CIA interrogation techniques have not been employed against terrorism suspects for four years or more.

.
.
.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/24/AR2009082401743.html?hpid=topnews


Of course, they won't. The excuses will be:

"Why did it take 7 months? Why did Obama wait until he was on vacation? It wouldn't have happened without our pressure! They'll convenient not find anyone guilty, it's just a show! blah blah blah fucking blah..."

ad nauseum.

[Windy]

1. They've already been posting "its not good enough", etc....

but that was to be expected from some here.

[elocs]

Let's face it, for some anything that is done will never be good enough.

That's the nature of some DUers. They must be a real treat to live with.

[ThomWV]

2. We will see if they are going after anyone who matters, then I'll judge

But if its the CIA's version of Lindy England then what has been accomplished?

[scheming daemons]

3. Your second sentence indicates you've already pre-judged to a degree

..in that you are expecting something like Lindy England.

[ThomWV]

5. Yes, I have. You are correct. My expectations are low.

[scheming daemons]

8. Then don't spout off about how you'll "wait to judge"... you already have... and...

You're basically admitting that there is literally nothing Obama can do that will change your mind about him.


He is doing, with this special prosecutor, EXACTLY what everyone said they wanted him to do.


...and it is not good enough for you.



So... excuse Obama if he stops caring about what you want, since you don't recognize it when you get it.

[ThomWV]

37. I'll spout off about as much as I fuckin' please

[DireStrike]

71. This could easily be theater

I'll believe it's a good thing when I see the indictments. Provided they are not Lyndie England indictments.

Why would you expect otherwise? When have agents of the empire ever acted against it?

[sendero]

73. As have you...

.... it's perfectly reasonable to have low expectations based on Obama's performance so far.

You are the one in nutville, you are expecting that to change.

We'll wait and see.

[ProfessorGAC]

82. Then That's On You Thom!

You seem to be sacrificing good on the altar of perfect.

That's a fool's game.
GAC

[H2O Man]

68. Expectations

and final judgements are distinct.

[ima_sinnic]

4. if nobody had raised hell about prosecution it probably would not have happened

so you can stick your know-it-all bullshit in a posterior orifice.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. +1, nothing happens without a LOT of pressure

DC does not like to upset the apple cart

[TankLV]

64. EXACTLY!!!

[G_j]

69. the ACLU has persued this for years

they deserve a lot of thanks!

[Blue_Tires]

92. +1

[Spazito]

6. It seems quite the opposite is happening....

It's either "too little, too late", a "whitewash" etc. The posters who will never be satisfied no matter what the Obama administration does are busy little beavers on this latest action as well.

It is becoming vomit-inducing, imo.

[sabrina 1]

41. What's vomit-inducing are torturers

and liars being allowed to live like kings and those who put partisanship before justice probably fall into the same category.

If the main perpetrators of the crimes are finally brought to justice, and I see no reason why that should not happen now, that will acceptable, not at all 'too little' it will have been worth waiting for.

I'd even be willing to let a few of the lower level crowd who 'were just following orders' off in return for their testimony.

But I don't see any of the names of those who gave the orders in this OP so I'll wait as the issues are far more important than the careers of a few politicians. They are life and death issues for possibly millions of people who have no voice at all.

Sorry if that makes you throw up. What makes me throw up is looking at the photos of dead children and tortured to death Iraqi Generals ~ to each their own.

[Spazito]

54. What is vomit-inducing to me is the crowd where nothing done by the Obama administration is ....

good enough, fast enough, progressive enough, you-name-it enough. The bottom line, imo, with those posters is they will NEVER say a positive thing about the Obama administration regardless of any actions taken.

The investigation has yet to begin, the special prosecutor having just been assigned, yet you want the 'big' names NOW, right NOW. It figures.

[DireStrike]

72. I disagree. It's definitely too soon to call this a good thing.

Have you forgotten Fitzmas already?

[Spazito]

77. An independent prosecutor, especially with the background of the one chosen,...

is good news. There will be an investigation, that's a hell of a lot better than NO investigation, imo.

What the end result will be, we do not know as yet. I would agree it is too soon to talk of prosecutions as the investigation has not yet been done but for some to already be declaring it a whitewash, too little too late, etc, is ridiculous, imo.

[DireStrike]

81. You are right. It may yet turn out to be fruitful.

To say that it's a whitewash already is cynical. Not that I blame anyone for feeling that way.

I expect that nothing will come of this. The elite protect their own. I've seen too many false starts to get my hopes up when a process that may result in justice served is begun. But I can't see anything to OBJECT to regarding this.

[Spazito]

85. I agree, a good dose of skepticism is healthy....

when it comes to investigations like this and it is only natural given the history of such investigations. I am, for the most part, a pragmatist but will admit to also having a smidgen of optimism as well and look to the progression of Watergate from whence it began to it's final conclusion.

[endarkenment]

7. Depends on if this is a Lindy England investigation or not. nt.

[scheming daemons]

10. So... the "Lindy England" thing is the new talking point?

...for those that want to bash the President no matter what he does...



You're worse than Republicans.....

[endarkenment]

12. Yes I just got my memo from CP-USA HQ.

Didn't you get yours?

Right now I am not bashing anyone on this. I will wait and see if the target is people following orders or those giving them, wait to see if this investigation punishes scapegoats or goes after those who ordered torture. If it goes after the people responsible for causing these crimes to occur, I will enthusiastically support the sort of change I voted for. Otherwise not so much.

[John Q. Citizen]

13. Actually you are worse than Repos. Will Cheney and bush be investigated? Woo? or is it

just the lower level people being investigated?

I don't know and until i do, I won't be cheering or jeering - unlike yourself .

[Toucano]

9. And if it was the "bashing" that precipitated this move?

You are right in not holding your breath.

The criticisms were also right and justified.

[RaleighNCDUer]

17. The bashing did NOT precipitate this move.

It was set up this way from the beginning, when it was announced that there would be no prosecution of low-level operatives who were simply following orders IF they did not commit prosecutable offenses themselves. While the bashers were claiming that meant 'no prosecution, period' there were others here saying that means there WILL be an investigation that will offer immunity or consideration to those who assist in the prosecution of the higher-ups who made this happen.

It is all happening as planned from the outset.

[SidneyCarton]

14. These posters have wanted to axe Obama since the Iowa Caucus.

For some visceral reason they dislike him and any opportunity to rail at him gets their blood going.

What's supposed to happen, prey tell?

Suppose for a moment they get their wish and they did impeach and remove Pres. Obama (no chance in hell, but lets roll with the delusion)

Would they be happy with President Biden? I doubt it, indeed, they would want his head too for complacency no doubt.

Would they then be happy with President Pelosi? Being that she failed to Impeach Bush during his presidency, I doubt it.

Then we move to the President Pro tempore of the Senate, Senator Byrd, who is admittedly too old for the post, though I doubt they'd like him either (I can just hear the KKK comments from here)

Which leaves us with the Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton. Go figure. I reckon they'd want to keep her, if for no other reason that after her you get to Tim Geithner, the Treasury Secretary.

[endarkenment]

15. Really? All of us?

I donated the max to his campaign, all after Edwards got clobbered in NH. I worked for his election. I voted for change. I rather hoped that accountability on war crimes including torture would be part of the change I voted for.

I must be the exception. I guess you meant all the others.

[scheming daemons]

20. "I hoped accountability on war crimes including torture would be part of the change I voted for"

...and now you've gotten that.

...and you're actually bitching and moaning about it.



:shrug:

[endarkenment]

28. "and you're actually bitching and moaning about it." - actually all moaning is from you.

I haven't 'bitched and moaned' at all.

You are the one demanding 'mea culpas' and running around in a massive poutrage making wild accusations.

I and others are simply taking a wait and see attitude. Only in your mind is 'wait and see' equivalent to 'bitch and moan'.

[SidneyCarton]

26. Fine. For the record: Endarkenment is not "one of those posters"

There absolution is granted, feel better?

Anyone else want an indulgence?

[endarkenment]

31. One hair off a very broad brush.

How about your statement was ludicrous and unsupportable?

Kind of like the OP itself.

[SidneyCarton]

40. How about you're taking offense where it wasn't intended.

Or you're being offended on behalf of others.

Or maybe you're just spoiling for a fight because this seems to be the primary occupation of posters in GD.

You want to be offended, be my guest.

You want an apology, I'm sorry.

You want my pity, you have it.

As to the rest, I seriously doubt you actually give two shits what I think, and the feeling is mutual.

[endarkenment]

67. right - my fault, obviously no offense intended - my mistake - so sorry

:sarcasm:

[SidneyCarton]

79. You're the one who keeps responding.

n/t

[endarkenment]

80. that was actually funny

in a totally unintentionally ironic way.

[PVnRT]

16. I think you need to start a few more threads about this

That way people will know how victimized you are.

[scheming daemons]

22. I don't have any other threads on this

[Orwellian_Ghost]

18. C'mon

This is a big nothing.

The proof is in the pudding and you can't seriously be accepting this as some meaningful action.

So let me ask: In the event none of the perps are taken down will you admit to the farce that we are witnessing or is your faith unshakeable no matter the mountains of evidence?

Now back to you: What do you think shall be the outcome of this investigation? Do you think any at the top are going to be prosecuted? If so which ones? If not why not?

[scheming daemons]

21. Assigning a special prosecutor and starting an investigation is a "big nothing"...

...got it.

:eyes:


As to your questions:

"In the event none of the perps are taken down will you admit to the farce that we are witnessing or is your faith unshakeable no matter the mountains of evidence?"

Can't take the perps down without first having an investigation and prosecution, can we?

Seriously... what is your problem with this? That Obama didn't immediately incarcerate everyone at the CIA? Is that how you would have him operate?

There literally is nothing more that he can do, within the law, than to investigate and prosecute. And it must come in that order... investigate, then prosecute.

what exactly should he do differently here?



"What do you think shall be the outcome of this investigation?"

I don't know. All we can do is investigate and find out.

"Do you think any at the top are going to be prosecuted?"

I don't know. All we can do is investigate and find out.

"which ones?"

I don't know. All we can do is investigate and find out.

"If not why not?"

Absence knowledge of the evidence, this question can't be answered yet.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

32. Well look

I'm sure just about every single person who has followed this closely and understands how Wash DC protects itself would hope their predictions are wrong but until we see concrete acts your probably not going to have much luck getting an enthusiastic audience from folks who have been watching the spine-free politicos in action these last several years.

Merry Fitzmas?

:shrug:

[HamdenRice]

34. "This is a big nothing." Dag, the depths of stupidity, historical illiteracy and ...

pure obstinate counter-factualness is actually kind of awe inspiring!

[tridim]

19. I'm running out of crow for these folks

I think I've served three major feasts since the innaguration.

[sabrina 1]

23. Yoo, Addington, Cheney, Rumsfeld

Bush et al are now under investigation for directing the torture program?

If that is the case, I think there would be plenty of celebration mixed with sadness that it has taken so long.

But never 'mea culpas' for demanding justice for the horrendous crimes against humananity that the American people have known about and our Congress for eight long years and done nothing about so far.

Where did you get the idea that people need to apologize for doing what is right? For pressuring their government to abide by their own laws?

Justice delayed gives criminals a lot of time to prepare or witnesses to die etc. Sorry if we're a little impatient to see justice done. Imo, the only reason these crimes happened in the first place, is because we did not want to risk losing an election etc. Yoo and Ledeen et al are still respected members of this society. Sorry if I won't apologize to anyone for being outraged over what has happened to this country and the lack of will, still, to do anything about it.

I think anyone who urged people to 'wait until we get a majority', anyone who put political partisanship above the law, are the ones who need to issue the 'mea culpas'. I remember them well, in 2002, 2004, 2006 and again in 2008. And I feel the only mea culpa I would be willing to make would be that I listened to them.

No one owes any apology for demanding accountability for these horrendous crimes against humanity and violations of all laws. What a ridiculous suggestion.

Meantime, that court in Spain might not want to close their case just yet.

[scheming daemons]

25. Not "mea culpa" for doing what is right... "mea culpa" for thinking Obama WOULDN'T

As for these this part of your post:

"..sadness that it has taken so long"

Really? Seven months is "so long"? I know we're living in a microwave society, but you really consider 7 months to be a long time for something like this to start?

That's just an unreasonable expectation.

[sabrina 1]

39. 'Seven months'? Is that how long you think

Bush's victims of war crimes have been waiting? Clearly you have not been following the news for the past eight years. Some, hundreds of thousands, will never see justice done because they're dead. But for the sake of their families, not to mention the reputation of the US, even eight years later, it would give them comfort to hear an apology, speaking of mea culpas and see the perpetrators at least charged with their crimes.

The families of those tortured back in 2002 or earlier, have been waiting a long time also.

During that time we were urged to vote for Democrats, which we did in the hope that this would be the only way to get some justice.

Hundreds of Constitutional lawyers and civil rights groups have been working on these cases for years, all to no avail.

Forgive me if I'm not dancing for joy yet. We got a majority in 2006. Right before that 12 of our Democratic Senators voted against Habeas Corpus. Yet, we set aside the anger that any Democrat, let alone 12 of them would commit such a heinous act, and gave them a majority based on promises of hearings etc.

Any apolgies I make will go to those victims and if they were tortured to death, to their families. I will apologize to them that we did so little while they were being tortured.

My advice is, do not try to tell people, who have been working on these utterly heart-breaking issues, completely frustrated and disappointed for years with the actions of Democrats, that they owe anyone an apology. That is downright insulting and completely ludicrous. The victims are the important people here.

As for Obama, he is a citizen chosen by us to do a job. If he does a good job that will be acknowledged. I don't understand the adulation given to politicians and the wild expectations people have of them. They need to be pushed to do what is right otherwise most of them will listen to those who yell the loudest and guarantee to finance their next election.

Obama was in the Senate and helped fund the illegal war in Iraq with his support. So, again, although I supported him, I have no illusions about him either. He's an ambitious politician like all of them. He needs to be pushed, and threatened with the loss of his job, which he made clear when he suggested we 'just move on' from the war crimes of the Bush administration.

The very fact that you think we ought to jump for joy at the first glimmer of hope of a possible accounting for the crimes, shows how low our standards have fallen. It should go without saying, shouldn't it that at least OUR party would demand justice. But we can't really count on them and you know it too.

[scheming daemons]

61. 7 months is how long they've been waiting ON OBAMA

[sudopod]

24. The arc of history may be long

but it bends toward justice.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mulhollanddriven]

29. I disagree

I think it will be the supporters of this farce that will have to agree with us when they see the way it plays out.

This is too little, far too late. They will prosecute nothing.

[Turbineguy]

30. Let's not pretend

we're patient!

[bvar22]

33. Pathetic.....just pathetic.

"...a dozen cases in which CIA interrogators and contractors may have violated anti-torture laws..."

Hopefully, (and this is a long shot) these little fish may roll over and implicate a senior official in the Bush Administration.
If that proves to be the case, and the Obama Justice Department prosecutes a REAL criminal directly from the Bush Administration, (which is ALL I've ever asked for), then I will applaud.

OTOH, if this is just more misdirection that fizzles out with a few low level scapegoats or less, then the whole little club of whiny parade followers who pollute DU with their personal problems will owe everyone a grown up apology.

Unrecommended
Divisive and unproductive

[Forkboy]

58. "Divisive and unproductive"

The OP is good for that.

[QC]

93. He's had a lot of practice. n/t

[Marr]

35. Why the hell do you think they're doing that? If everyone was a good little lapdog like you suggest,

they'd drift right into Republican Land.

BTW- this isn't enough, but it's more than you'd get if everyone joined the frigging fan club.

[HamdenRice]

36. Oh right. Holder was reading DU and quaking in his boots

DU Complainophiles had nothing to do with this decision. It was based on an independent Attorney General pouring through the record -- the CIA Inspector General Report and the DOJ Office of Professional Responsibility Report -- and coming to an independent judgment.

You are experiencing grandiose delusions of you think that unrealistic bitching on an internet discussion board caused this decision.

[Marr]

38. Not DU, Critics on the left in general.

Don't be ridiculous.

[ima_sinnic]

44. take the fucking blinders off. You think DUers have been the ONLY ONES

pressuring the Obama administration to prosecute?
Did you forget the more than 50,000 people who've signed a petition at Democrats.com?
And the countless citizens who have faxed, phoned, e-mailed, and written letters demanding such?
YOU are the ones with "delusions" and need to up your meds. At least get out in the real world.

[ima_sinnic]

42. if you think Bush, Cheney, Rove and the other top pigs are ever going to serve time,

let alone be executed for treason and war crimes, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

Does the name Patrick Fitzgerald ring any bells?
We saw how well that went . . .

[damntexdem]

43. I'll be glad to if they prosecute -- I'll be happy.

Happy, happy, joy, joy,
Happy, happy, joy!

That is, when I see that prosecutions are taking place.

Of course, I didn't exactly bash about this -- but I have expressed disappointment.

[The Straight Story]

45. FINALLY!!! They are going after Bush/Cheney/Etc!!!

Right?

[nc4bo]

48. Not quite, unfortunately.

But perhaps it will lead right straight up the food chain.

[DevonRex]

46. They're either gonna say it's not good enough or totally ignore it.

That's their way, you know.

[Retired AF Dem]

47. I personally believe that everyone that works for the CIA

from the Director to the person that cleans the toilets should quit and go home.

[defendandprotect]

49. Let's see where this goes -- and how effectively . . . meanwhile, good SOMETHING is happening ..

about time!!!

[defendandprotect]

50. dupe

[defendandprotect]

51. Also looks like Panetta was fighting this -- time for Panetta to move on?????

[MadHound]

52. Meanwhile Bagram AFB remains open for business,

Expanding as a matter of fact.

Hmm, I think I'll wait to issue a mea culpa.

[ddeclue]

53. Unfortunately Obama constantly has to be pushed into doing the right thing by the progressives in

the Democratic Party - not really "leadership" in my book - so NO I owe him no apology. It's a shame that he had to be pressured into this, just like he's having to be pressured to keep a public option on healthcare.

[IndianaGreen]

55. You haven't read the news story, have you?

This is just to determine if there are going to be prosecutions and it does not cover the DOJ lawyers (like Yoo) who wrote that torture was not torture.

[Greyhound]

60. Aww, you're going to spoil his tantrum.

It's hard being wrong all the time and still trying to pretend you're right in the face of the facts.

[Forkboy]

56. You're more childish than anyone you're railing against.

[ProfessorGAC]

83. You Sure About That?

Not from where i sit.
GAC

[Forkboy]

87. Yes, quite sure.

[Romberry]

57. Please do hold your breath

You won't miss anything that you lose as a result of oxygen deprivation because the grey matter is apparently already dysfunctional.

What we have here are potential investigations aimed at people at the lowest levels. What they will be investigating is whether these peons broke the rules set forth in the atrocious Bybee and Yoo memos. In other words, the torture techniques that were set forth will become the de facto legal standard under which people can mount a defense. Or let me put it in a way that is even simpler: They are saying that everything in the Bybee memos was legal. In other words, torture was legal.

This is not an investigation of the chain of command to the highest levels which brought these things into being. This is a sacrifice of the peons. You surely can't be so caught up in Obama love that you don't understand that.

[librechik]

59. Holder's "preliminary review" is far away from any prosecution.

But I promise, if they ever do actually prosecute, say, Rizzo, I will apologize.

[Krashkopf]

62. Did you read your own clip?

It says:

Durham's mandate, the sources added, will be relatively narrow: to look at whether there is enough evidence to launch a full-scale criminal investigation of current and former CIA personnel who may have broken the law in their dealings with detainees.

So in other words, we are going to investigate, and maybe prosecute, "a few bad apples" who went beyond the Bush administration's illegal, immoral, torture policies, but, NOT Bush, and Cheney, and Addington, and Rumsfeld, and Yu - the war criminals who actually developed, and implemented, the illegal, immoral, torture policies.

And THAT, in your mind, is BOLD action by AG Holder and the Obama Administration!?

The words that come to my mind are TIMID and WEAK.

[noamnety]

65. +1

For correctly identifying one of the problems in the flamebait OP.

(other unspoken issues: when the justice department doesn't act, the he-can-do-no-wrong crowd explains that the justice dept is a separate branch, Obama is the executive branch, he's not responsible for what they do or don't prosecute. When they DO take action, it's Obama's achievement. The praise lands in his lap while the buck stops everywhere else.

[TankLV]

63. I won't hold my breath for JUSTICE...& this COMPLETELY IGNORES the bush* administration completely..

it SPECFICALLY excludes investigation of the previous WAR CRIMINAL and his misadministration and only NARROWLY focuses on the CIA...

NOT.
GOOD.
ENOUGH.

indeed...!


but it's a START - and I say GOOD - but WE STILL DEMAND A COMPLETE AND THOROUGH INVESTIGATION OF THE bush* REGIME!!!

[Skittles]

66. are you fucking kidding?

anything he's doing now isn't because he WANTS to do it - he made it clear very early on he thinks we should just look the fuck FORWARD

[G_j]

70. true, this is Holder's deal nt

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

74. Durham's mandate, the sources added, will be relatively narrow: to look at whether there is enough

evidence to launch a full-scale criminal investigation of current and former CIA personnel

[JHB]

75. The mea culpa's in the mail...

You can cash it when Bush, Cheney, and gang start their permanent vacation in Ft. Leavenworth.

[Mystayya]

76. Ah yes- such a pleasant thread

Who needs freepers when our own supposed side is so very good at verbally beating the hell out of each other, fanning the flames and widening the divide. Every issue is turned into "Obama is AWESOME" / "Obama Sucks". Then those progressive issues fade off into nothingness while you all beat the hell out of each other. It's disturbing and sad. I hope the moderators put a stop to this.

[Romulox]

78. The mods could control this, if they wanted to. The OP posts nothing but this sort of thing. nt

[redqueen]

91. Wrong.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6394540

[QC]

94. 90% of the nastiness on this board is the work of only five or six posters.

They have been allowed to do their thing for years, so we can only assume that the management is happy with the tone of this place.

[nc4bo]

84. This is a Democracy-At-Work-Zone. Unlike that messy FR site,

we are all free to express ourselves even though there times when.......:grr: :grr:

[Stinky The Clown]

86. Hooray!!!!!! Lynndie England:CIA Version

A laughably narrow expansion of the scope of a ......

...... BUSH (Mukasey) appointee to .......

...... investigate BUSH operatives. But NO mandate to look at ......

...... the actual BIG criminals.




Yeah .... let's cheer ...... hip ...... hip ...... hooo ...... ray.

:eyes:

[Toasterlad]

88. It's Funny How When the Justice Department Defended DOMA, Everyone Screamed That Obama Had Nothing

to do with it, but now that they've decided to investigate torture, Obama gets the credit.

In any case, I doubt anything will come of this, so I'm not giving ANYONE a "mea culpa". Get convictions, and then we'll talk.

[rox63]

89. Some people forget that Obama has been pretty busy since he took office

Saving us from the brink of economic ruin, trying to repair our tattered reputation in the world, and so on...

[JVS]

90. Obama changes his stance and you want people who were unhappy with the first stance to take blame?

:crazy:

Why not demand apologies from those who defended the now discarded position?