This "Cash for Clunkers" deal hurts the Health Care Debate.

[BlueJazz]

I'll get to the point in a second..

Just about every Car Dealer in the Tampa Bay area, this weekend, has stopped the Clunker program early for fear that the Dealers will not get the paperwork done (before the Program's money runs out) and consequently, will not get paid for the Rebates.
A part of me does not blame them....Who wants to sell a car for thousands of dollars less and then get stuck with the bill??

The people in power, who run the program, should have seen this coming and put out a notice...such as:
"The Cash for Clunkers program will end Sunday, August 23 @ 11:59 PM. Any Participating Dealer WILL be paid the full amount of the rebate, up to that time"

My Point. Already 2 of my customers (on Sunday) have said words to the effect>>

"See, the Government can't even run a simple program like this without screwing up the whole thing and causing people to be turned away for their rebates. ...And We're suppose to think that they can run a good health care system"???

Yes..I explained about Medicare and how the Government does a great job ...but still (damnit!)
..Do we still have to add fuel to the Fire??

Aggg!

[Raven]

1. I can't help but feel that some of these car dealers have been very

greedy. It seems to me that the clunker program has brought them back from the brink of ruin and has helped thousands of people. They know the money is there, someone has to process the paperwork. Even with Medicare, Doctors have to wait to be paid. It amazes me how many of the people criticizing the government are sucking on its tit.

[vadawg]

2. problem i see is the usual time it takes the government to process stuff

it always seems to take forever any time you have to deal with any government entity whether its local or federal.

[Raven]

4. I agree but I think that the Docs who treat Medicare patients have

figured out how to plan for that. At my law firm, we always had to plan for people who paid late...it was part of doing business.

[RB TexLa]

6. Don't worry doctors will figure out a way to steal every dime they can from whatever system

is processing their payments. Car dealers are complete amateurs compared to doctors when it comes to stealing.

[moondust]

7. Does that include doctors who run free clinics, etc.?

sheesh :eyes:

[unpossibles]

32. but that is true of private companies too many times

I know a LOT of inefficient and overly bureaucratic private companies.

[Statistical]

5. I don't think it is greed as much as fear.

The dealers association lawyers asked the govt for a guarantee that all submitted valid claims will be paid. The department of energy would not provide a guarantee. They stated they will cut off applications once all allocated money is gone.

That being said the number of claims in processing is huge, hundreds of thousands of claims with 90%+ of the money allocated. So anyone putting a claim in now is basically taking a huge $4500 bet that the govt has an completely accurate count of number of claims and the amount of money remaining.

If the govt makes a mistake then the dealer ends up eating it.

If I ran a dealership right now I would cut off the program early. That is fear not greed talking.

The profit on a new $20K vehicle is about $2K-$3K so losing $4500 not only wipes out all the profit but it means the dealer sold the car at a loss.

[Warpy]

9. Also, they wanted immediate payment, something that

just wasn't going to happen and they should have realized that. It takes time for things to go through the bureaucracy and checks to be cut. Think tax refund, fellas.

What they're not realizing is that they've been relieved of millions of dollars of unsellable inventory and that they didn't have to shell out that kind of discount on new cars and get stuck with more unsellable clunkers on their used car lots.

Basically, what the program did for them is allow them to sell new cars without getting stuck with the trade ins, to reduce their inventory without getting stuck with clunkers and their lots clogged with stuff that really needed to be junked because it will never sell.

It would be nice if these guys were reality based, but they're not.

[Craftsman]

18. And more bad news is coming

I heard that some claims have turned by the government and the dealers are going after teh car buyers for the $4500 after they have destroyed their old cars.

[DainBramaged]

20. If the claims are returned the dealer has the opportunity to correct the errors

and the dealers have NO recourse to 'go after' the owners, it is stated in the program. The dealers are responsible to make sure the cars qualify under the issued guidelines.


Got proof??

[moondust]

3. Umm...has any dealer actually not been paid? You know, in reality?

Some RW dealers may make idle claims about this or that in an effort to smear the program and make the gov't look bad. It's stupid but that's the RW. As a rule the gov't does not renege on its promises. It may take a while to process and verify a half million auto purchases but I have no doubt they'll get their money.

At this point what those people are talking about is all hot air.

[Statistical]

8. The program has a hard limit of $3B.

Any claims beyond $3B will not be paid. So putting a claim in now is putting 100% faith in the govt to accurate account for the money and number of valid claims.

Lets put it this way....
If you could do a c4c deal right now but YOU (not the dealer) assumed all the risk. If the claim is denied because the govt ran out of money you would need to bring in another $4500 cash or have your bank note increased $4500 would YOU take that deal? I mean the govt never makes mistakes, or miscalculates anything. I am sure they will only accept claims to bring the total expended to exactly $3B and not a single claim will be returned for lack of funds.

The govt could have provided a buffer of say 10% and then made a hard deadline with all claims guaranteed to be paid if valid and submitted by that date. The language of the bill didn't allow that so all risk is on the dealer.

[moondust]

11. Which is it? $3 billion or Monday?

I heard it publicly announced that it runs out on Monday. If they meant it runs out exactly at $3 billion then they never should have said that it runs out on Monday. I'd sue 'em for the money and I think a court would give it to me because of the public announcement.

[Statistical]

16. Like 5 years, 60,000 miles it is which ever comes first.

My understanding (from the talking heads on CNN) is the statute as written makes it impossible to pay out a single dollar above $3B. Even if the DOE wanted to they have no authority to spend more than $3B in payments.

The DOE is estimating that the funds will be exhausted by monday based on current sales rates and it closing the program there. Likely they are leaving a cushion hoping to underpay slightly (say $2.9B) rather than risk ending up with $3.1B in claims and $3B to pay it with.

There is no guarantee that Dealers will be paid if total claims are greater than $3B. The dealers association asked the govt for an explicit guarantee but the govt advised that wasn't possible based on the wording of the statute (DOE has no authority to spend more than $3B).

If it were me I would keep my "winnings" and leave the game a round early rather than try to squeeze the last profit out of the system and risk getting burned. Funny that everyone blasted business (banks) for taking too much risk, now here is a business who doesn't want to assume more risk and they get blasted too.

Sometimes fear is good in business. If you have collected 99% of the money you will get for c4c and can stop risk free why risk nonpayment to grab the last 1%? Leave that to Dealers who are more desperate or don't have a choice.

[DainBramaged]

22. We (meaning us as in the dealerships I administer the program for)

have been paid for dozens, and have a few where the documents weren't legible after scanning or a signature was cut off and we needed to re-submit the documents. No rejects. There have been sales issues where the salesmen have made horrendous mistakes and pushed through sales that didn't qualify (class 3 trucks for example that were built in 2002 or sooner which do not qualify) but they will wind up responsible for the difference in the $4500 after the vehicle is wholesaled.

[FarCenter]

I would have thought that the sales manager would eat the $4500

Every time I've bought a car, the salesman has had to go see the sales manager 2 or 3 times before the deal was done.

[DainBramaged]

30. The salesman is responsible for his/her sales and to make sure the I's are dotted

and the T's crossed. The sales manager has to go by what the sales person is submitting. ALL he is concerned with are the numbers and that the car isn't being sold for a loss, sales tax is calculated correctly, paperwork is signed, license is valid, insurance title for the trade, etc. THATS why people like myself administer the program.


Have you ever sold a car? At a dealership?

[FarCenter]

33. Never been a salesman

It just seemed that the manager was responsible for the financial integrity of the deal, and I wasn't sure why the $4500 wasn't part of that.

[Statistical]

37. From my experience. 20 sales reps, 1 sales manager.

The sales manager has to rely on sales reps providing accurate info. One example outside c4c would be payoff amounts. If sales rep gets wrong payoff amount on a trade-in that affects the deal.

Now usually the loan will simply be adjusted or consumer will need to put more money down however it is the sales reps job to fix that screw up and usually the (in my experience) your bonus is helding pending until it is straightened out and the consumer signs a new note.

[baldguy]

10. See? The gubmint can't even succeed properly!

:sarcasm:

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

12. I've heard many people say things like this:

"How is Obama supposed to handle trillions of dollars and healthcare for millions when he has experts come up with a 4 month program that only lasts 3 1/2 months before it needs it's own little bailout? Some great strategists there! Are we supposed to bailout national healthcare every month?"

I have heard statements like this often in fact... and it's hard to countre that statement. :shrug:

[Historic NY]

14. Why does it take 6-8 weeks to get your IRS check then, would be my reply....

it take time to process the paperwork. I'd even bet they even find some fraud & illegal activity.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

15. IRS checks have no relation to the piss poor planning of the C4C program.

Ultimately, every program (public or private) is based on estimates of participation and expenditure. Often, a program's success is dependant on the accuracy of those estimates. The argumet being raised by public healthcare opponets is that if the government could not get a few billion dollar program right, how on earth could they get healthcare right (which is several magnitudes more complex and expensive)?

From where I am sitting, it seems to be a valid fear on thier part or for anyone without faith in the administration.

[Dawgs]

21. BS. It didn't need a bailout. It needed more support because it was so widely successful.

A bailout would imply that it failed and needed more money to pay for the failure.

Think of it this way. If a car company creates a car that sells 100,000 in the first week, aren't they going to spend more money to build more. It's the same thing. Plus, this so called "bailout" money was already part of the stimulus bill. It's not new money.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

26. Your missing thier argument and focusing on semantics.

Thier argument is that it was poorly planned. Funding and planning never came close to what was needed.
There's pretty much no denying that's what happened. The program's needs were underestimated. (that's the argument)

When I'm asked, "What if Obama's healthcare program needs are underestimated?"
Really, that's a disaster scenario and now there's a founded fear of something like that happening.

I just try to avoid that line conversation/debate, really.

[gatorboy]

34. That's a pretty dumb statement.

Expanding a program that was too successful is a bad thing now? :eyes:

The problem is they had no idea the program would be as successful as it was. How is this a bad thing? For once the problem is a program worked too well. The only individuals that want to make a negative out of this are folks that will bitch for the sake of bitching.

[Markbooker]

13. Get while it lasts

Hmmm, so to get our dollars back we have to go through the hoops set by the dealership clowns now...

[customerserviceguy]

17. Frankly, it is a good point

Let's say that we do get a public option, and for some reason, everybody and his uncle tries to get on board. Will there be enough bureaucrats in place to process paperwork on everybody who wants to join, then pay out the first set of claims fast enough?

My conclusion: probably not. The only way to introduce a public option is to do so gradually, limiting the number of people who can sign up for it in each year. Would anybody here be happy about that? Didn't think so.

[DainBramaged]

19. (sigh) everybody has a comment, but where were you folks

when the dealers were in the tank six months ago?

If you understood ANYTHING about this program, it takes about an hour to scan in the documents and then file FOR EVERY DEAL SOLD. And the Government DID put out a notice stating the program ends 8PM TONIGHT and ALL paperwork MUST be submitted by then.

Genius, no wonder we just won our first Presidential election in 8 years.

[lunatica]

23. Pulling defeat out of the jaws of success

You talked to two customers and now it's all a big FAIL? The program isn't even over yet (granted it has only today left) and two people are experts on how it did? What kind of instant access to the latest numbers do they have? Or is it possible they want it to fail because Limbaugh wants it to fail?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

24. So a government program set up to kickstart the economy quickly

(that was UNDERFUNDED because of Republicans, BTW) is akin to health care reform that has been argued about and worked on for half a year?

C4C was pushed through congress quickly to help the auto industry. These reforms for health care have been argued about for months.

[doc03]

27. I heard 80% of the cars are foreign made. n/t

[lunatica]

29. They were foreign cars made in the US

by Americans. Is there a problem with that?

[doc03]

31. The way I understood it they were 80 % imports

manufactured by both foreign and domestic companies. You know the Ford Fusion is made in Mexico, the Prius is made in Japan and I think the Honda Civic is made in Canada etc.. You take any domestic car a large percentage of the parts come from off shore. Is there any foreign manufacturer that has a Union workforce in the USA?

[Romulox]

39. Why do we need to launder money through foreign corporations?

If the goal is to get money to American workers why should we launder the money through Toyota? :wtf:

[madrchsod]

36. the auto parts plant my daughter works for...

started receiving "drop in orders" the middle of the first week of the program. they are now on 48-56 hours a week for the next month to fill orders they have booked. her plant makes parts for the major world auto companies.

[doc03]

They do have a point, say if you are a dealer

and sold 50 cars you have advanced over $200,000 to the buyers. After the last few months a lot of dealers are holding on by a thread as it is. Now after selling all these cars they need the money to restock their inventory. I did read yesterday that GM is advancing credit to the dealers until they get reimbursed from Uncle Sam. I am unemployed and believe me it is a pain in the ass even getting that money today. I initially was laid off back in April and after filing a claim in about (3 days) I got a determination of benefits and was notified I qualified for UC and my waiting week was fulfilled. The week after I was called back to work for one week then laid off again. So then I had to reopen my claim, for some reason it takes a minimum of (3 weeks to reopen your claim) and less than a week to start it. To make a long story short I received my first unemployment check 6 weeks after I was first laid off. Thirty years ago when you got laid off you went to the employment office and you would have your first check in a little over a week. Today everything is done over the Internet and if you have trouble you have to call. You would not believe the automated system they have it is a nightmare. It takes a minimum of an hour to actually talk to anyone, a friend of mine recently spent 4 hours on hold one day.

[Bill McBlueState]

25. "People are sick and dying because they can't afford health care"

"What do YOU think we should do about it?"

That would be my approach. Challenge the Party of No to come up with an actual solution to the problem instead of just crapping on all the existing ones.

[pinto]

28. It ends tonight, the money's there, I assume all dealers will be paid and

Congress isn't back until September. There's plenty of time for the health care discussions / TV shouting matches to continue.

:shrug:

[madrchsod]

35. well they are really to stupid to be in business...

i`m sure their customers will travel to a dealer that will gladly take their car.

my local gm/nissan/toyota dealer has over 40 cars for the cash for shitty cars and trucks program. i doubt he cares if the government pays him today. he`s sold enough cars to buy more stock and pay down operating expenses accrued during the recession.

[DainBramaged]

40. Between the three dealerships I am involved in we did a total of

147 and there are a LOT of happy people to have had the opportunity to get rid of the junk for a new car. And with zero percent financing it is an amazing deal.

They extended submission till 12 noon Tuesday.

[Romulox]

38. C4C was a subsidy to CORPORATIONS. Helping people was incidental.

The Obama administration has funneled trillions to corporations (many foreign), and saved crumbs for regular people.

That is why he lacks credibility. The rest of this is an excuse.