The problem isn't Imus.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

Don Imus is just another crazy bigot you might bump into on the street.

No, the problem is Don Imus's audience. The ones who say he's not racist, because those women really are nappy headed hoes. The ones who say he is racist, but it's not that bad. The ones who blame this whole mess on rap musicians, like that group Nappy Roots. Aren't they racist too? And the ones who blame that uppity Al Sharpton for starting the problem in the first place. They're crazy irrelevant bigots too, but there's thousands of them. Hiring, and firing, and pulling people over, and waiting on tables, and teaching kids, and voting republican. They're the problem.

We all probably already know this, I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

[skooooo]

1. can't we drop this already?

hasn't everyone said what they wanted to say at this point?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. Apparently not.

Because of lot of people still don't get it.

[skooooo]

15. getting it...

Does that mean that someone has to agree 100% with you before you think they "get it?"

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. Well, maybe some of them do get it.

And continue to make fools out of themselves because that's what they like to do.

[skooooo]

29. ok but the question

Does someone have to agree with every point you make 100% of the time on this topic before they "get it?"

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. You're confusing cause and effect.

They're not "not getting it" because I disagree with them.

[skooooo]

33. But what's your measure?

How do you assess whether someone "gets it?"

The only way I can think of is that they must agree with your all of your points, or they don't get it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. Check out #22.

People have been making the same arguments over and over. Just not all in caps.

[skooooo]

37. It's gone...

Here's my point. There may be people who agree with you on most of the key points, but have other principles that they view as being very important as well. I think when you want to define people as "getting it" or "not getting it," you set up some barriers that aren't helpful.

Maybe I agree with 90% of what you say. How much is it worth to fight and get mad over the 10% ?

[peacetalksforall]

32. Nooooo. An important point has been reached. It's not over.

A turn around point has been reached.

The turnaround could have been with Limbaugh, but it happened to the perfect person.

This is MSNBC NBC Microsoft GE and seven majore companies that said no - NO MORE (knowing that it has been years - eleven on MSNBC.

How many Limbaughs are supported by Microsoft, GE, and those seven major companies.

They (and former advertisers) let it go.

Why is there a turn around (if you or anyone agrees that this is a turnaround)?

IMO - it's because the WH/PNAC went to far.

More people are paying more attention.

More poeple are noticing that we have not been moving forward on racism, sexism.

More people are noticing that the true victims of this WH/Admin are the little people.

More people realize that the denial of a vote was race targeted when it came to all kinds of attempts to keep them away from the building.

Congress is acting. They are causing a turnaround.

Bloggers had little to do with this turnaround (with the exception of
those who contacted GE, Microsoft, and the advertisers) - and that is
an act independent of the blogs unless they hit a link to do it.

The coach, Rutgers, and those athletes caused the turnaround.
Wisdom reigned.

Levin, Wasman, Leahy, Conyers, Pelosi are causing a turnaround.

The next turnround that bloggers can work at is getting the major networks to give equal time to Democrats and Independents and quit pimping for the WH/PNAC/RNC/Republican Party.

[Rosemary2205]

42. Just drop it??

30% of black males have lost their voting rights. Less than 1% of the fortune 500 have ever had any blacks at the uppermost reaches of leadership. Black citizens of this country earn 70% of what white citizens of this country earn and quite frankly have to do a much better job to get that. And how many different states are STILL passing laws specifically designed to make voting for black citizens more difficult?

Oh, honey, it ain't over.

[Forkboy]

51. So dont say anymore then.

That was easy.

[marylanddem]

2. The problem is also guys like Craig Crawford

- so-called mainstream journalists who seem so sorry to see Imus go & seem to have no clue as to what
it feels like to be anything other than a white male with all the privileges accruing thereto - including the privilege to demean whomever, whenever, and wherever you choose. I do not think all white males are this dumb - my husband gets it - but I am amazed at how many simply DON'T get this outrage so many women and blacks are feeling about this level of ignorance.

[Mabus]

5. Talk about aspen that are connected at the roots

Gregory looked very subdued last night and he wasn't the only one who didn't hide his emotions on this issue. The Washington press is a tight bunch.

[marylanddem]

6. Yep. The privileged white boys journalism club, unfortunately...

[skooooo]

13. That's true..

...I never realized how WHITE the crowd on Imus was. MSNBC should come up with a program that gives more perspective.

[Mabus]

20. My husband read me something the other day about the Irish Media Mafia

It mentioned Matthews, Russert, the three O'Donnells, the two Buchanans, and Maureen Dowd among others. I'd ask him for the link but he surfs the internet with the same ferocity he surfs channels. And just like when he channel surfs he can't remember what he watched five minutes ago. I did just google and found this on The Daily Howler, entitled "ETERNAL WORLD MSNBC! The Catholicization of NBC News was on full display last evening" about halfway down:

ONLY THIRTY MILES FROM THE STATES: For the record, Russert and the rest of the gang also share a Nantucket bond, as Sallie Brady once explained in a Washingtonian profile:

BRADY (8/03): , one of the cliques that fuels the isle's social engine. It was Jack Welch, the story goes, the 20-year chairman and CEO of NBC's parent company, General Electric, who drew network folk to Nantucket...

Russert's boss, NBC CEO Bob Wright, is also on the scene. Add to the cocktail chatter the latest tidbits from the Oval Office, care of White House correspondent David Gregory, who was married on Nantucket and returns with his wife, Beth, for vacations; celeb updates from Access Hollywood host Pat O'Brien, who retreats here; and Washington gossip from News 4 anchor Barbara Harrison, and the only ones missing from the NBC lineup are Will and Grace.

Although Welch retired in 2001, he's still a power magnet. He holds court from a massive gray-shingled home festooned with window boxes, near Sankaty Head Golf Club. It was there that Welch once played Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, only to discover that two of the richest men in the world routinely bet only $1 a round.

(bolding in original) http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh040705.shtml

added on editing: I hope this is the beginning of the aspens turning. ;)

[skooooo]

27. It's an Irish conspiracy!!

[Mabus]

44. Nothing like a good hoolie!

I went to evlbstrd's good-old fashioned Irish hoolie for St. Pat's Day. At least I think I did. I sort of remember it. I think I had a great time. :evilgrin:

[marylanddem]

28. I think it's a good sign

because no matter whether it was the sponsors pulling out, the emails, the black journalists who spoke out -
no matter how the firing came about, MSNBC did the right thing - which to me is a victory for those of us who are not part of the white boys journalism club.

[Mabus]

47. What I don't like is the "it was entertainment" excuse

It's the same lame excuse that the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter use when they get called on the carpet for their shenanigans. It allows them to say whatever they want without being held accountable for it.

[Catherine Vincent]

58. And don't forget about Howard Kurtz.

Apparently he enjoyed Imus calling him a big nose jew.

[havocmom]

3. Part of the problem is twits who equate firing Imus to violating his right to free speech

That just blows my mind.... and there was a post about it just this morning on my favorite liberal discussion site ;)

NOBODY is taking his rights away. Some broadcast companies EXERCISED their rights to fire his ass for being massively offensive and putting their financial well being at risk. There are probably damned few Americans whose employers would not do the same to them if they enraged a huge part of the nation.

The idiot man can speak as freely as he want. He has no right to be compensated richly for it though.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. Yes, these are the same people...

arguing that the problem is Al Sharpton.

Some white guy fucks up, they've got to blame a black guy.

[MadBadger]

7. The problem isnt Al Sharpton

But he doesnt help the issue. I think he is right to be angry, its just he and Jesse Jackson may not be the right people to lead the charge.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. What are you doing to lead the charge?

Do you want to take over Al Sharpton's job?

[MadBadger]

11. I shouldnt lead the charge

Because I am not for his firing (though I understand it completely). Its just as a Jewish person, I cannot help think back to what Jesse Jackson said about people like me. So that whenever I see him, I think about what Imus said, but then also what Jesse said.

[dogday]

24. Jesse Jackson said that?

Why and what context did he say it, and when????

[MadBadger]

26. Here it is

Kim Pearson

© 2003-4. All Rights Reserved



HYMIE,hymie
1. n. A derogatory term for a Jew.

2. n. A derogatory term for a German (less common than 1).

Hymie is derived from the stereotypical Jewish name Hyman (originally Chaim), and the German name Herman. Hyman is commonly "shortened" to Hymie, and continues to be a common name among Jews, although its popularity seems to be waning. The slur hymie shares its genesis with the British slur Ikey Mo (for Isaac / Moses), or the Irish Mick or Paddy (c.f.), all of which descend from popular forenames. Although hymie is not as popular these days as the derogatory term kike, it has raised a few eyebrows in the last few decades. The most noticeable of these occurrences were Jesse Jackson’s hymietown incident of 1984 (see below), and political insider Edward Rollins’ 1995 gaff (see quotes, also below).



Hymietown, hymietown <1980s +> (U.S.) A derogatory nickname for New York City.

It is unclear whether or not the Reverend Jesse Jackson is responsible for this novel coinage, but the popularity of the term is unquestionably his doing. Apparently in 1984 Jackson referred to NYC by the handle Hymietown in off-the-record conversations with reporters. When he was initially called to task for this anti-Semitic remark he flatly denied having ever said it. Milton Coleman, a trailblazing African-American reporter from the Washington Post, insisted that Jackson had used the expression, and Jackson later admitted his "error," saying "Charge it to my head . . . not to my heart." The gaffe has since largely been ignored, but for several years it cast a pall over Jackson's career, badly damaging his 1984 bid for the presidency. The incident was even lampooned, in song, by comedian Eddie Murphy on Saturday Night Live.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. So now we've moved from Al Sharpton to Jesse Jackson?

I want to know what important black figure we're supposed to be disparaging over Imus's comments these days.

It's all very confusing.

[MadBadger]

41. For me personally

I have had my problems with Jackson.

[Catherine Vincent]

60. How about Farrakhan?

:)

[MADem]

21. Hey, I am one of those twits, but please look downthread at my reasoning.

This has NOTHING to do with Sharpton, and everything to do with the GOP. But way too many people just aren't seeing the big picture.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. OK, I looked downthread.

I didn't see much in the way of reasoning.

You shouted let the marketplace decide, then yelled at NBC for worrying about their bottom line. If that ain't contradictory, I'd like to know how.

Then you came up with some non sequitor conspiracy stuff about Karl Rove.

[MADem]

39. I did not shout or yell. Here are a few facts for you.

Imus opposes the Iraq War.

He has protested the conditions at Walter Reed.

He called for Rumsfeld's head.

He has called for the resignation of Gonzales.

He has called Cheney a WAR CRIMINAL.

He called Halliburton "war profiteers."

He has called Bush an IDIOT.

His audience is largely Republicans.

----------------------

Now, you tell me, why a corporate entity run by "good Republicans" would dump this guy so quickly after first saying they'd suspend him. Why do THEY keep covering the story ad nauseum, instead of covering what happened in Iraq today with the bombs in the Green Zone, or the RNC email story, or the troops that have been killed in the last few days, or the Gonzales perversion of justice? The answer is because BushCo decided to make a little lemonade. They handed the knife to the left, and said, "Slit that pig's throat for us--you'll be happy with a pound of flesh, but WE will be happier because a traitor to the cause will be silenced."

And if you don't see that, well, you don't see it.

What you won't see is stuff like this anymore, and that makes the GOP very, very happy: http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/cheney_msnbc_describes_as_war_criminal.htm

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. All caps = shouting.

More or less.

Here's a fact for you on Imus.

If's a god damn flaming fucking bigot. And his fans ought to be ashamed of themselves.

[MADem]

45. Entire sentences in all caps is shouting. A single word is simply emphasis.

There IS a difference. Devils are always in the details.

Here's a cite: http://www.netlingo.com/LOOKUP.CFM?TERM=SHOUTING

SHOUTING
Chatters and people who post on Usenet will often tell others to stop shouting. It's another way of saying, "TURN OFF YOUR CAPS LOCK." When someone is TYPING AN ENTIRE SENTENCE IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS, that person is SHOUTING. It is not proper netiquette to TYPE IN ALL CAPS, especially in e-mail.

In fact, it's annoying. If you're in a hurry (or want to do what many people online already do), then type in all lowercase-unless you want to imply that YOU ARE SHOUTING!

see also: case sensitive , chat acronym or chat acronyms.

The fact that Imus is a bigot is established. He's also a sexist, too. He's been one for decades. So why is everyone "Shocked, shocked!" now?

But those aren't the real reasons he's been shitcanned. The reason he has been shitcanned is because he went "off the GOP ranch" on issues near and dear to BushCo. He's now antiwar, he's calling members of BushCo criminals and thieves, and he's used the "I" word (impeachment).

That's the ONLY (not shouting, mind you, just emphasis) thing that has changed in the Imus Universe. The racism and sexism have remained pretty much constant over the years. But now, his mainly GOP audience will have less opportunity to hear his calls to oust Bush. Which is convenient...for Bush, of course.

[Forkboy]

53. Silent words on a screen.

IS THIS YELLING? no
is this yelling? no

Are they both words sitting on screen? yes

I've seen people complain about this shouting stuff for years on message boards,chat rooms...whetever.If someone actually takes it as yelling they need to see a doctor right away,because the only voice that could be yelling would be the one in their head.

It has to be one of the stupidest things on the entire internet to complain about.

So MADem,you use all the damn caps you think you need.If someone whines about you yelling they are insane and need immediate medical attention.

[MADem]

68. Heheh...

Thanks!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

73. Feel free to address my actual point...

about how your post didn't make sense.

:hi:

[MADem]

75. I did. I can't help it if you don't read what I write.

:hi:

[TahitiNut]

18. It's not his 'rights' being challenged ... it's his 'entitlements'.

There's a BIG difference. Sadly, the widespread and reckless use of language has eradicated our necessarily nuanced comprehension of the very real differences between 'rights' and 'entitlements' and 'privileges.' Indeed, even when we speak of the delegated authority vested in the Presidency, far too many call them 'rights' ... and they're just NOT rights. They're powers ... and they can and should be taken away the first instant they're abused.

[havocmom]

86. Not his rights but his entitlments being challenged. GREAT POINT

Nobody put duct tape on his mouth and carted him off to the gulag. He just won't be cashing big checks from CBS and MSNBC for being an on-air jerk on their equipment.

[MADem]

19. I'm afraid I am one of those "twits." As are three of the ladies on THE VIEW

(Ms. O'Donnell, Ms. Bahar, and Ms. Walters--the only one arguing for Imus's head was Ms. Hasselback, the nitwit who still backs the Iraq War--which makes me wonder, is it Imus's antiwar stance that actually fueled some of the calls by the "corporate media" for his ouster?).

The antidote to lousy speech is more speech in excoriation. Not CENSORSHIP.

Let the MARKETPLACE decide. When he's offensive, pick up the remote and change the damned channel. That's what I do. Or DID, before NBC decided that I was too tender to make up my own mind what I wanted to hear, or not hear.

NBC doesn't really give one shit what you think. Or what I think. They only care about the bottom line, and when the advertisers bailed, so did they. This isn't about those women at Rutgers anymore--hell, they haven't even weighed in yet--this is about a corporate media entity with very close ties to BushCo getting rid of a once-favored ally who has gone off the ranch on issues like Gonzales, the Iraq War, Cheney the War Criminal, and other BushCo matters.

They never had a problem with his sexism and racism and homophobia BEFORE...it's only when he started going after Bush that they gave Sharpton and others the platform to complain, when before, they were ignored.

Ask yourself the question, cui bono? The GOP benefits, because a Republican on the airwaves, preaching to OTHER Republicans that the Iraq War is a lie, has been SILENCED. And they handed the knife to the LEFT to slit the traitor's throat. The left thinks they got a victory, but actually, they lost a mouthpiece who was preaching to an audience the left will never reach.

Rove, such a clever fellow....

[Bluerthanblue]

43. you don't seem to understand- the marketplace HAS

decided- At least on the 'simulcast' show-
And their decision was that they didn't want to pay Imus to continue.

PERIOD.


People have complained about Imus in the past- Read up on the firing of one of his people for his comments about singer with breast cancer who was 'joked' about not looking so good "bald headed with only one boob".

Hell, maybe I'm just a freak. The ladies on the view are entertaining. But I don't see them as idols- any one of them can be 'correct' or 'incorrect' on any subject, on any day. I won't line myself up with people who take what I believe to be the 'wrong' stand, simply because they agree on other issues.-

McCain says this war was a stupid mistake- I couldn't agree more. But he goes on to say, he thinks we have to "win" it by staying there- I couldn't disagree more.

Because "Liz" on the view holds the perspective Imus should lose his show-- And Rosie et.al. disagree- does that make her automaticly 'wrong'?

[MADem]

48. No it hasn't. Steve Capus decided for us, because we're too stupid to do it ourselves.

He was on Olbermann last night and said that he made the call without consideration of advertising impact. HE made the decision on his own, and tried to suggest that Al Roker and a few others who worked at NBC talked him into it. So now we learn that Imus is not only a bigoted sexist, he's also not fun to be around at work, so the rest of the NBC family urged the boss to dump him. That's not "letting the marketplace decide."

Look, if the advertisers pulled out, and even at that, Imus continued to pull in the lion's share of viewers in the morning, they'd be back so fucking fast your head would spin. It's not about decency. It never is. It's about the bottom line, reaching consumers who have money in their wallets that they will spend on the advertised product. If it were about decency, no one would advertise on Limbaugh, would they? Or Faux, for that matter. But they do, and the periodic calls for boycotts never work with him.

Who called the Ladies on the View "idols" -- save you? What they are is pretty damned liberal, though.

I am getting the sense you only want to hear speech you agree with. Fine.

I take a different attitude. I think the antidote to lousy speech is MORE speech, not censorship. But hey, that's my take. I don't like censorship, even if the ideas are hideous. It's not what we're about as a nation. Imus said some vicious things (as he has over the years) but nothing he said was illegal, just hateful. And now, we'll have less opportunity to hear him atone. And his GOP listeners will have less opportunity to hear him call for Bush's and Cheney's impeachment, which no doubt suits the GOP leaders just fine.

So now, the default for GOP listeners is Rush "Halfrican" Limpballs, who gives kissass interviews to Cheney.

Yet, no one thinks the GOP "won one" here. Fine, mileage varies...

[Bluerthanblue]

49. I have absolutely NO problem hearing

views other than my own.- I've changed my stance on many issues in my lifetime, and I've been DEAD wrong on several things.

One thing I have learned is to try and be careful not to 'stereotype'. NOT to make assumptions about someones stand, because of the 'field' they are standing in.

You point to the issues Rosie and Joy share with you- and cite THEM as 'support' for your perspective-
Sorry MADem- but that is idolozing them- I agree with them on many of their stands- but I didn't agree with Rosie AT ALL right after 9/11. I was completely put off by her over the top 'patriotism'. I believe not only was she wrong in much of what she said, but that even she understands that she acted impulsively- and spoke in support of things that did not deserve support.

As for Imus being fired- we don't pay his salary directly- It isn't like 'pay per view/listen' subscribership. He was fired by the people who put up the money to air him- His voice is on my radio even if I don't want it to be- I don't pay Sirus, or XM or cable or dish tv to 'buy' access to him- he is there-

Imus' right to speak freely has not changed- His opportunity to be paid money for the thoughts and words that issue from his mouth has altered somewhat- but that is a fact of life-.

ACTIONS have CONCEQUENCES- that is actually a scientific fact.

Something may be 'legal' and still be completely wrong. I think if you will take some space and try and step away from your frustration you might agree. This isn't a repub-dem issue. You can't define all life through that lens- People are people first and formost- and people DO change. Sometimes for the 'better' and sometimes ????

peace,
blu

"I am getting the sense you only want to hear speech you agree with. Fine."
I suggest it might be said that anyone who disagrees with you is stumping for the GOP-
Twisted logic? probably- it stems from the same intolerant broad brush.

[MADem]

67. Nonsense. The ladies of the View simply said that they don't agree with censorship

and they believe in free speech and the marketplace should decide. They didn't say they "agreed" with Imus, and neither do I.

I do "agree" with not censoring people. I do agree that the antidote to bad speech is more speech. I don't think you shut down people who talk--it casts a PALL on people who talk for a living--watch what you say, watch how you say it.

Those are sentiments I agree with. Even if the speech is odious.

I happen to agree with Don Imus that Dick Cheney is a war criminal, and I sure as fuck don't "idolize" him in any way, shape or form.

The advertisers may have pulled out (and pull the string, THEY are the people who have already indirectly paid Imus), but you didn't read what I wrote. Capus pulled the show BEFORE the advertisers pulled out--he said that unequivocally on Olbermann's program last night. He basically blamed Al Roker for it, so what's up with that? Blame the Black guy? I mean, really.

Imus has already been paid, so keeping him on is a wash. He's not "costing" them anything, beyond having to substitute ads from other outfits who contract for 'anytime' ads at a lower rate (who couldn't afford to air in the Imus timeslot normally) and wait and see if they want their ads removed, too. But they didn't do that, because this is NOT just about his language this time. He's said, frankly, WAY worse in the past than this latest bunch of hideous comments. But back then, he was a Bush cheerleader.

And no one has ever, before this matter, given any of the complainers the platform to complain about Imus and his excessive and hateful speech. This time, though, NBC/MSNBC did. For an entire 24 hour news cycle. And it continues on today.

Now, if Imus's numbers soared following the originally agreed-upon suspension, those advertisers would come creeping back. It's all about audience share with those guys. They don't care, so long as they are reaching a critical mass of consumers. That's their interest. Not right and wrong. These same "offended" advertisers hand their money over to Rush "Halfrican" Limbaugh and have for years.

If actions really did have consequences, Imus would have been fired when he called CBS management a bunch of money-grubbing Jewish bastards, or when he called Howard Kurtz a 'beanie-wearing Jew.' He would have been canned when he referred to Gwen Ifill as the "cleaning lady." No one said a word when he called Bill Richardson a fat bastard, a fat sissy, gordo, and invited him to 'Besa mi culo.' He wasn't called to account when his stooge Sid called Palestinians 'stinking animals' who should be bombed either--and that was several YEARS ago. http://mediamatters.org/items/200411190009 And let's not even get into the 'Cardinal Egan' schtick that his producer does--if that's not Catholic bashing, what is?

The only thing that has changed about Imus is that he now opposes the Bush administration and the war. That's the only thing that has changed. The hateful speech is the same. The bigotry is the same. The sexism is the same.

I look at the pattern, and I ask "Cui bono?" And the answer I come up with is this: The Bush Administration. They have silenced a guy who, with a mix of politics and hate speech, managed to reach more Republicans every day than any five hundred Democrats could reach in a lifetime. And lately, he was preaching against the war, against BushCo, against Gonzales...it just seems terribly convenient to me.

Unlike you, I do see it as a Republican-Democratic issue, because a registered Republican (yes, he is, he admits it) radio shock jock has been silenced by Republican corporate executives who maintain close ties with the Bush administration. The Democrat, Dan Abrams, said "Keep the guy on after his suspension." His boss, the Republican, said no.

But hey, YMMV. I just don't see it the way you do. And I didn't 'infer' that you were stumping for the GOP, FWIW. I do see clearly that you want this guy off the air, because of his speech. In effect, you want him censored, silenced.

My view is that his speech should be countered and challenged, not silenced.

[Bluerthanblue]

80. he is not silenced !!!!! you just don't get it-

he isn't going to be paid to continue to speak his "comedy" in public, by the people that were paying him.

PERIOD.

If someone was hauling him off to jail, for speaking these words, then I would be in complete agreement with you- his 'free speech' would be being violated. The people who have control of the airwaves he was invited to use as a platform, chose (they are free to pick and chose based on their satisfaction with the performance of the 'performer') to not continue to support him.

And you may choose to see this as the Republic's are out to get anyone who doesn't tow the line- but I believe you are seeing connections as'party issues' which are actually racist issues. Al Sharpton is a Dem. Al Sharpton is against the war- Al Sharpton called Imus to task for his racist, sexist slur. Are you saying Sharpton isn't a 'real Dem'? Are you saying Obama isn't a 'real Dem'?


The people who would be most directly effected by the damage Imus' comments cause wanted him OUT.

read this-

http://www.timesanddemocrat.com/articles/2007/04/12/ap/headlines/d8of0q382.txt

despite what 'Capus' said on Oberman last night- read the above article, and weigh what is said there in your decision.

You may drive over the speed limit- frequently- and not get nabbed- you may engage in risky behaviour and avoid harm, but if you get caught, you can't point to your past violations and cry "no-fair".
I DO believe in karma- that our actions eventually 'catch up' with us- and sometimes karma has puppies.


peace,
blu

[havocmom]

85. Thank you

And my point seems to have been validated ;)

[MADem]

87. No, he's silenced. No matter how much you 'parse'

You won't be able to turn on your radio or TV and hear him calling for Bush to be impeached anymore. You won't be able to hear him calling for Gonzales to be jailed. If I or others cannot hear him, he HAS been silenced.

I read your link--it says 404 - file not found.

Look, you apparently do not feel that offensive or odious speech should be protected. Fine, that is your perogative. I take an opposite view, and I agree with Barney Frank that "Speech protection is for assholes" not for nice people who engage in public discourse in civil fashion.

I personally do not want my airwaves to be censored. I can do that MYSELF, with my remote or my radio dial. I don't need Corporate Media or Big Brother to do that for me.

I want to hear what the "assholes" in our universe think, because shutting them up doesn't stop them from thinking.

And as for your "No fair" comment, I can only say this so many times--maybe at some point it will sink in--the antidote to CRAPPY speech is MORE speech. Odious speech is NOT like "driving over the limit" because we do not YET live in a totalitarian society. Odious speech is actually legal here, still. Driving over the limit isn't. That's a HUGE difference.

CBS could have easily given a platform to opposing viewpoints, but you don't see them offering Al Sharpton a four hour morning slot, now, do you? My hypocrisy meter is redlined when it comes to those guys, sorry. They say it was all about those young ladies, but it wasn't, as far as they are concerned--it was all about their bottom line and their wanted to "appear" tolerant. But I'll not be at all surprised if he's simply replaced with a younger model, with the same shitty attitude, but maybe with a more reliable Republican slant.

Jay Severin is probably chomping at the bit....

I believe in karma too. And I hope it comes back to bite those corporate media hypocrites, because we KNOW what they are about. I just don't believe that they took this action for the reasons you cite. I think there's way more going on here, and it is only partially to do with that basketball team.

[Bluerthanblue]

91. where were all these voices who say the antidote

to 'crappy speech' is more speech.

I'm sick and tired of the lame excuse people are spouting that says:

"it would have been so much better to have had Imus stay on the radio so 'we' could have confronted him"

WHEN???? I've been given countless examples of how foul mouthed and vile hearted this man's "routine" was for YEARS upon YEARS!!!- where the HELL were all these "championing" voices all these years???
Where are these voices in response to the racist, homophobic, sexist comments that are being thrown out as decoys- "yeah, but rush says this all the time!!!" or "you should hear what _____has said" and "Well, Imus said the same thing AND he said___" How can anyone seriously throw out so many racist, prejudced rich white men who make their living talking trash talk on public access radio???? I have no clue who these people are, because I avoid "entertainers" like them. But there seem to be more than a few.

I'm sorry my link doesn't work- I'll try and figure out what I did wrong-

It has become disgustinly clear to me that racism is very much alive and well- and thriving here- among many of the people I had believed to be far more liberal, enlightened and progressive than this community has proven itself to to be.

If this whole issue had been one that cut to the core in an anti-semetic direction- this discussion would not even be happening.

this is so discouraging. NOLA was a wake up call- this is another eye-opener.... and the view isn't very pleasant.


i wish you peace

blu

[MADem]

92. Go ahead and think this is actually about racism if you want.

I am not saying that Imus's comments were not offensive, but what I am saying is that they were waiting for the guy to fuck up, so they could get outraged and fire him.

He went off the ranch--the BushCo ranch. The minute he started opposing the Iraq War, he was a dead man walking. And if it wasn't this incident, it would have been another. They were just waiting to pounce.

Funny, the victims of Imus's remarks have weighed in--and they don't want him to lose his job.

But who cares what THEY think. It's apparent that their opinion doesn't count--they've played their role (victim) and Imus had to be fired BEFORE the parties met.

It was more important to get Imus gone than actually provide a remedy that would satisfy the persons whose reputations and names were actually slurred. Interesting how that worked out.

And every major advertiser that pulled their ads? They all had Pentagon contracts worth billions. Billions. That would go away if the war ended.

Pull the string. Ask yourself "Cui bono?"

[MADem]

93. I have to add another litttle something something here

You said : If this whole issue had been one that cut to the core in an anti-semetic direction- this discussion would not even be happening.



But see, he's been there, he's done that. OFTEN.

Imus has, in the past, called the CBS management a 'bunch of money grubbing Jewish bastards,' and he's called Howard Kurtz a 'beanie wearing Jew'...and that is just for starters. Go on, google it. You'll see I am not making this up.

He is an equal opportunity offender, so the binary assertion just doesn't fly. Name any minority group, they've gotten it from him. He delights in going after Catholics and evangelicals, too. He is sexist, racist, and that's part of his schtick. Or, shall we say, it WAS part of his schtick.

I don't think it's an admirable part of his schtick, but apparently it appealed to the "angry white GOP male" demographic that constituted the bulk of his audience.


Again, the Rutgers team has accepted his apology and said he shouldn't lose his job.

Yet, he lost his job before the victims even were given an opportunity to weigh in with their proposal for redress.

This isn't about the Rutgers team--it's about Imus and his change of heart with regard to the war. He's no longer an "asset" to the right and the neocon crowd....he had to go.

[Tom Joad]

10. The problem is corporate responsibility in promoting this stuff.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. The corporations are out to make money.

The reason they make money on this is because of Imus's racist audience.

[Marnieworld]

14. And it's not really about those comments either

It was a choice, not an accident to say what he said. My belief is that it was not just for a giggle between them all at that moment. It was a deliberate choice to be racist in order to exploit the very racism that you wrote about. It was the cynical manipulation of racism through these slurs in order to get the attention that he has not received in quite a while. He wanted controversy to rev up some outcast, shockjock, street cred. I think it's beyond racism but a disgusting publicity stunt trying to gain from collective racism.

The gamble that he lost was that the collective racism has decreased since his early days, what once worked for his career now only ends it.

[fishwax]

17. nice post

kicked and recommended

:kick:

[Karenina]

31. Could this mebbe energize folks

to relieve themselves of the Glenn Beck affliction?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=635614&mesg_id=636432

[fishwax]

83. let's hope so

Thanks for that link ... I missed the thread (been so busy lately that I've missed most everything), but affliction is definitely the right word for Beck :puke:

[Name removed]

22. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadBadger]

34. I know you are trying to show anger...

but when you put something in all caps, i just ignore it. Use the exclamation point!!!!!!!!!!

[bullwinkle428]

36. DU used to be SO much more fun

when you guys at least made an EFFORT at subtlety... :eyes:

[Karenina]

23. I would hardly say they're all Republican...

Leider...

I hope this firing is an energy capsule to those dedicated to take back the American PEOPLE'S airwaves. They've been in private hands FAR. TOO. LONG.

[Madspirit]

46. K&R Bornagin....n/t

[cwydro]

50. So...

I'm still gonna ask...why are rap artists immune from charges of racism/SEXISM? Hmmm?

I don't particularly care for any woman being called a "ho"...no matter what her hair type may be.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

52. Why do mention black music?

And not all the other high sexualized white music out there?

[cwydro]

54. You have a point,

but rap is always the one with the "hos" and the "bitches" . FYI, I do include Eminem in this...he has some awful anti-female lyrics....and he is WHITE. It has nothing to do with the color of the person espousing that viewpoint. It is just WRONG, no matter who does it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

56. "Father I want to kill you, mother I want to fuck you."

From Jim Morrison and the Doors.

Which is rock music. Certainly sounds as bad, worse even, then anything I've heard in rap music.

At this point, there are usually two excuses:

1. The Doors was a long time ago. If you can make sense out of that argument, more power to you.

2. White kids don't go out and kill their father and fuck their mother. Apparently, that means as opposed to white kids and white music, black kids go out and imitate the stuff they hear in black music because, apparently, the black kids are too stupid to know any better.

So this is why I think blaming rap music for society's ills is basically just plain old fashioned racism.

[cwydro]

57. Yeah, I remember that song

and I hated it.

I can't make an excuse for something I didn't write, but I will say that speech from those of us who say nasty or even violent things about our parents is a different thing entirely...to my way of thinking...than saying all women are hos or bitches or whatever again and again and again.

I think Morrison was speaking the Oedipal thing, ya know?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

59. Ah, yes, Morrison was waxing philosophical.

"artistic license" and all that.

You think them rap artists gots artistic licenses?

Nah, couldn't be.

:eyes:

[cwydro]

61. Some may.

But some don't.

And I didn't think much of Morrison's attempt either.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

62. Yeah, I never liked the Doors.

But did you ever hear the problem with white people is that they're always going around killing and raping because of what that rock music says?

[cwydro]

64. What?

Mr. Saturday Night Special? Janie's Got a Gun? Saturday Night's All Right For Fighting? Gimme Three Steps? And The Thunder Rolls?

Dylan's music?

But I hear you, guy. Actually I like rap; hate to admit it but I do...but I am old enough to not care so much about the lyrics...I like music for what it is...and nothing more. I jsut worry for the young kids coming up and hearing that crap (that YES, I listen to) or hearing the crap that idiot Imus said and believing it to be cool. Black kids or white kids, no matter, just not good for them to hear this stuff....from rappers or from some washed up white guy on TV.

I just hate the hypocrisy. I have heard the phrase Imus used a LOT. But never by whites.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. That supports my point.

There were people who criticized rock music for being sexual and supporting violence...

and they were pretty much universally derided as being a bunch of puritanical kooks.

Imus, on the other hand, wasn't singing a song, or reading a script, or writing a novel. He wasn't protected by artistic license, and hasn't been stupid enough to claim so.

He just went and said something blatantly bigoted.

And THAT is the difference between Imus and rap music.

[cwydro]

66. Fun as it might be

I really can't argue with you there.

I just maintain that someone of his race and vintage would NEVER have come up with those words without hearing it somewhere else. And the clueless older white guy that he is might have thought it was "cool".

And still I say that, artistic license or not (and I see nothing artistic about hos) it is not cool to slam women in song...or any other way.

[Bridget Burke]

71. If Imus was so clueless that he didn't know he was being offensive....

Then he needs to go off the air before his dementia embarrasses him even more.

[cwydro]

77. Well,

I gotta agree with you there. I have said as much to friends with whom I am discussing this. I mean. HELLO! But still, I think that he is as clueless as perhaps someone like my dad, who would mean no harm and say something he picked up.

Wait, no, my dad would never say those words. NOT. I gotta take that back.

I can just see a clueless older white guy saying something to appear cool and not realizing, really, just how uncool it was.

[Bridget Burke]

90. Well, maybe now Imus realizes how "uncool" he is.

He can meditate upon it & devote himself to his philanthropy.

I'm almost as old as Imus & I know better than he does.

[Karenina]

72. WHO controls the industrial music pipeline and what gets through?

:shrug:

I doubt you've heard of A.D., a BRILLIANT poet imho, who got spit out of the pipeline for such:

"A.D. we all know your style is trump
give the crowd something that will make 'em shake their rump
Something real catchy, like the flavor of the month
write about a shootout or chumps gettin the boot out
or write about some booty of a fly cutie
they don't want to hear about liftin up the mind
they only want to hear about a little bump and grind
You know what I mean, something that will get us green
Now I understand all that stuff about the soul
But please understand, as a fan it's getting old

BUT GRAB A HOLD OF THIS THOUGHT
I'LL TAKE YOUR ASS TO COURT
SO WRITE A POP SONG..."

[cwydro]

78. Not trying to be dense

but perhaps I am. Can you enlighten me further?

[Karenina]

82. More rap poetry...

"A.D. Let me tell you something loud and clear
this is an industry, no one is sincere. In fact
you're just an entertainer. I can't put it plainer
You're just another rock group, rap or whatever you are
give in just a little and you can go far
don't you realize you could be a SUPERSTAR???"

Anthony DeMore and David Tarica were an inspired, eclectic writing team.
Seriously though-provoking and musically sound. Michael Franti managed to break through the resistance to such expressions. WHY is he the EXCEPTION rather than the rule? But wait, as I point of reference I must ask if you're familiar with his work?

[skooooo]

55. so...

I guess our discussion is over. You didn't answer my question, but maybe some other time.

[MADem]

69. Here's some 'interesting' rap music

Well, I do pop pills
I keep my tube socks filled
And pop the same shit that got Tupac killed
Spit game to these hos
Like a soap opera episode
Then punch a bitch in the nose
Until her whole face explodes
There's three things I hate: Girls, women, and bitches
I'm that vicious to talk up and drop-kick midgets
They call me "Boogie Night"
A stalker that walks awkward
Stick figure with a dick bigger than Mark Wahlberg
Coming through the airport sluggish, walking on crutches
And hit a pregnant bitch in the stomach with luggage
It's like a dream, I can't back out, I black out
I'm back out, looking for someone "of" to beat
the "crap out"
I'm bringing you rap singers
Two middle fingers
Flip you off in French and translate it in English
Then I'm gonna vanish from the face of this planet
And come back speaking so much Spanish that Pun can't even understand it ...

By this guy:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

74. Here's a picture of some dangerous terrorists.

[Bridget Burke]

70. Rap artists get plenty of flack.....

Although not all of them are offensive. The worst lyrics don't make it to the radio.

Consumers have a choice of whether they want to buy their stuff or not. I'm sure that Imus fans will still find a way to listen to their hero.

[cwydro]

79. Yeah, you're right on that.

I cannot imagine what the "worst lyrics" must be. But truly, I just do not get offended by a lot of this; however, that being said, Imus and his sexist/racist bullshit and/or raps artists saying the same really are on the same page. They are equally guilty.

[Karenina]

81. The BEST lyrics

composed by thoughtful, worldly and menschlich artists, thanks to corporate control

will NEVER reach your ears.

The music moguls have their agenda and those who do not fit the mold are NOT HEARD.

[Bridget Burke]

88. Well, the worst rap doesn't spew itself over the airways.

To find it--you have to go looking.

Neither CBS nor MSNBC helps get that "message" across.

[philosophie_en_rose]

63. Bingo!

Even if popular culture had any comparison to Imus' direct insult to real people, it would not make his comments correct.

Nevertheless, Imus' apologists have a much more pernicious effect than Imus. They are using the fact that one of their own attacked women and african americans to actually attack women and african americans. Then, they act like victims when people disagree.

Cry me a freaking river.

[Vinca]

76. Back to the music industry.

Here's what Snoop had to say on the subject -

"It's a completely different scenario," said Snoop, barking over the phone from a hotel room in L.A. " are not talking about no collegiate basketball girls who have made it to the next level in education and sports. We're talking about ho's that's in the 'hood that ain't doing sh--, that's trying to get a n---a for his money. These are two separate things. First of all, we ain't no old-ass white men that sit up on MSNBC going hard on black girls. We are rappers that have these songs coming from our minds and our souls that are relevant to what we feel. I will not let them mutha----as say we in the same league as him."

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1556803/20070410/snoop_dogg.jhtml

I'm glad Imus is gone, but I don't think the young women who remain "in the hood" as opposed to going to college deserve crap like this.

[bliss_eternal]

84. The problem is that hate culture

was marketed, distributed and allowed to exist on public airwaves (i.e. Fox, etc.)

I feel that Imus's audience is merely a symptom of the bigger problem (though I do understand your points). There wouldn't have been an audience for him or Fox, had such shows not existed. People would have been forced to seek out their local KKK or neo-nazi meeting in order to hear such things.

[dogday]

89. The problem is in minds of everyone, but let's start with women

Black, white, hispanic, oriental and how they play a part in the military...


Nothing like raping your fellow soldier to start the day? Huh? :sarcasm: