Would Michael Vick still be running dog fights if he wasn't caught?

[LostInAnomie]

[BlooInBloo]

1. I assume so.

[Speck Tater]

2. Would Michael Jackson still be alive if he hadn't died? nt

[flvegan]

3. I'd say most likely, yes. Why would he stop otherwise?

[LostInAnomie]

9. You mean you don't believe he would have had a miraculous change of heart...

... and decided that having dogs tear each other apart was disgustingly immoral without going to jail for 20 months? Amazing what a mere 20 months can do to a man's soul, isn't it. Now, he's full of "contrition" and would never hurt another animal.

All it takes is 20 months. :eyes:


p.s. This is not aimed at you flvegan. I know where you stand on animals. I'm just amazed at the people on here that believe Vick's crocodile tears and bullshit acts of contrition.

[flvegan]

12. I can tell you this about Vick's recent "coming to pitbull Jesus" moments

He doesn't give a shit. He hasn't changed. He's "working with" the HSUS on their dogfighting campaign, and in a very, very odd bit of events for HSUS they haven't provided ANY opinion on his rehabilitation. Basically, they're using each other. Vick, to promote his media persona. HSUS, to have an influencing name speak to folks about the wrongness of dogfighting.

Thanks for the p.s. I appreciate it, and I hope I'd have seen your post for it's intent without it.

[LostInAnomie]

15. I really wish HSUS and other animal protection organizations...

... wouldn't have provided him the platform. Dog fighters aren't going to give a shit, and it only gives him a chance to do PR.

[flvegan]

22. He was going to get the platform anyway.

HSUS has the integrity and the money to leverage it in the best way possible. I have faith in their decision. I don't like it, but I know why they've done it.

[cherokeeprogressive]

21. Epiphany

Ever heard the word? Know what it means?

"a sudden, intuitive perception of or insight into the reality or essential meaning of something, usually initiated by some simple, homely, or commonplace occurrence or experience."

How much hate mail do you think he got during his time behind bars? Surely he got tons. He probably got more mail than any other convict in whatever institution he was incarcerated in. I'm sure he got hate mail, and I'm sure he got mail from supporters whose intent was to convince him that he had done something terribly wrong. I'm sure he got lots of mail from fans and former fans expressing their disappointment in what he had done. Epiphany doesn't take 20 months. Sometimes it takes mere moments. Do you believe that "intervention" in the case of alcoholics and drug users can be effective, and cause the addict to see the errors they've made, and take steps to correct them?

I think you're very arrogant for believing you could know someone's mind. It's altogether possible that during his time inside, when all he had the opportunity to do was read the words of fans, former fans, animal rights activists and groups, angry animal lovers (I'm one, but I believe everyone has the capacity to change), and famous people he knew, that he came to the realization that what he did was terribly terribly wrong. Maybe it was something as simple as a friend or family member writing about a pet he used to have, causing him to remember how much he loved it.

I'm assuming you don't know him, and probably wouldn't know him on the street if he bumped into you. Believing you know his mind takes on an even larger type of arrogance in the light of those facts.

[LostInAnomie]

27. I'd rather be arrogant than naive.

Just wondering, how much hate mail does it take to make you incapable of drowning a dog? What about electrocuting a dog? Or, swinging a dog by it's back legs as a means to bash it's head into concrete?

How many disappointed fans does it take to change the heart of a man capable of bringing an innocent dog from a shelter home to be torn apart as "training"? Does it take more to also make him not think it's alright to hang dogs and ignore their dying squeals as they struggle for breath?

I wonder how many celebrity friends you have to lose until you realize that beating and starving a dog and then throwing them into a pit to be destroyed by another dog just isn't right?

Sociopaths don't change. They aren't capable of it.

[cherokeeprogressive]

32. What a bunch of bullshit that is.

Dogs Dogs Dogs. Surely you don't believe that every person who is guilty of bad acts carries that guilt with them with them to their grave. Dogs Dogs Dogs. Yeah I get that he caused the horrible deaths of dogs. Dogs Dogs Dogs.

Everyone is capable of changing for the better. Dogs Dogs Dogs. To believe otherwise brands you as someone who only CLAIMS to espouse progressive ideology. Dogs Dogs Dogs.

You DO NOT know what's in his mind. You DO NOT know whether or not he's convinced that what he did to DOGS DOGS DOGS was wrong. You do not know that. That you think you do amused me at first, because of the obvious arrogance one must possess to make it possible to reach that conclusion. Now I find it tiring.

Below you'll see a picture of my dog, Bella. She's a ten month old Golden Retriever who's already given me so much joy that I'm afraid I won't be able to have another dog after she goes to the Great Beyond. When I think of Michael Vick, I think of Bella. I think of the horrible things he imposed on animals who wanted only to please the person who fed them. It brings tears to my eyes. All things considered though, I think it might be possible that Michael Vick is possibly now seeing the horror he perpetrated for what it was. I think everyone deserves a second chance. I consider that to be a part of the progressive ideology I espouse.

[LostInAnomie]

33. Don't try to lecture me about progressive ideals.

Being progressive doesn't mean you mindlessly swallow bullshit acts of contrition from someone looking to gain from them. That's just being naive and gullible, and only serves to make other progressives look like fools also. No thinking person should buy into the coincidences. Like how feeling guilty about murdering animals looks exactly like feeling guilty that you were caught murdering animals. Or, how acts of contrition look exactly like creating good PR for yourself.

You can be dismissive with your "dogs dogs dogs" bullshit, but think about this. What do you think Michael Vick would have done to Bella if he would have adopted her just a short 2.5 years ago? Think about how sweet she has been to you and how you can't bear to see her harmed. Now, think about her being used in one of Vick's 20 training kennels. Think about her being torn apart by another dog that has been starved and beaten until driven insane. Think about her crying out in anguish and not understanding why. Think about Vick cheering and making money from the act. Now, think about all the dogs that was a reality for.

Do you honestly think a person capable of that barbarity is capable of wiping that immorality away in a few months? Do you honestly a person that depraved and sadistic changed his whole world view because of a few disappointed fans and nasty letters? Do you honestly think that if $1.6M wasn't on the line or has wasn't ordered by the court that he would even think twice about "working to make things right"?

Some people will buy anything, I guess.

[cherokeeprogressive]

34. I can't bring the sweet souls of the dogs he was responsible for killing back. Neither can he.

That doesn't mean though, that he can't be sorry, and that he can't be counted upon to never do those things again. Sorrow in the context of what he's done before, and never doing those things again make him eligible for forgiveness in my book. True Forgiveness comes without condition. You're not qualified to say he's not sorry.

"Do you honestly think a person capable of that barbarity is capable of wiping that immorality away in a few months?"

Yes I do think that's possible. I've known, in my own family, two Uncles who served in Vietnam and South Korea who came home addicted to drugs and alcohol, ADDICTED. Both of my Mom's brothers were men who didn't think twice about going to the bar on payday, after work, and then coming home and kicking the asses of my Aunts and cousins. One of my Cousins bears the scar of a glass ashtray my Uncle threw at nothing in particular, but it happened to hit her in the face when she was SIX FUCKING YEARS OLD. He hasn't taken a drink since, and it's a huge bone of contention between us because I love my margaritas. That particular Uncle served his duty in South Korea and never once fired his weapon in self-defense, but came home fucked up nevertheless.

My Mom's other brother who served in Vietnam admitted to me during a tearful drunk when I was 16 that he had killed more people than my family numbers numbered. He has nightmares to this very day. He was severely burned when a gas can he was carrying was hit by a sniper's bullet, and spent six months in a hospital in Saigon. He wrecked his car on a Saturday in 1970, drunk, on his way home from the local VFW. A young boy in the car that he hit died. He spent six months in the Los Angeles County Jail, and then he spent every weekend for three years in a place called Wayside, which was a prison I believe is now closed.

Both of those men, one who's held human beings in his gunsights and pulled the trigger, and the other who's simply taken out his pent up agression on the people he loved have became different people. As far as I know, neither has had a drink in more than twenty years.

[greguganus]

35. I could act remorseful as hell for $7 million over a 2-year period. n/t

[LostInAnomie]

41. Ding-Ding-Ding!!!

We have a winner

[Hansel]

42. The fact that he was capable of doing what he did in the first place

is enough for me to be skeptical of his contrition.

We'll have to wait and see, but my guess is that this will not be Vick's last run with violent disregard for common decency and the suffering of other living beings.

Hospital wards and graves are filled with women whose husbands or boyfriends claimed "contrition" and swore they would never hit them again. Before you say we should not compare women to dogs there are some comparisons in the situations. Both are weaker than the person attacking them, both have been manipulated into trusting their abuser, and the person attacking them gets a perverted sense of power in controlling them through violence and manipulating them into continuing to accept it. It's not only the object of their perversion, but the perversion itself that needs to be weighed into the discussion of Vick's behavior.

I would be quite surprised that a man with this lack of regard for the suffering other other living beings feels any true contrition at all for these acts. This is a base behavior that makes up his character and there is very little chance that a couple of years in the pokey and people being mad at him have changed a basic character flaw that allowed him to do this in the first place.

We'll have to wait and see, but money is the more likely reason for his "contrition" than a sudden epiphany that what he did was wrong. Just to back that up with one more "food for thought". Why should we believe that he believes that a act he actually committed is wrong when there are so people out there so vocally claiming that there was nothing wrong with what he did?

All this being said, I don't have any problem with him getting his job back. Maybe he will do a few rounds with some dog lovers from the other team.

[LostInAnomie]

47. Let's also not forget Vick's "Ron Mexico" scandal.

In March 2005, Sonya Elliott filed a civil lawsuit against Vick alleging she contracted genital herpes from him in the autumn of 2002, and that he failed to inform her that he had the disease.<35> Elliot further alleged that Vick had visited clinics under the alias "Ron Mexico" to get treatments and thus knew of his condition. On April 24, 2006, Vick's attorney, Lawrence Woodward, revealed that the lawsuit had been settled out of court under undisclosed terms.<36> Many fans bought custom jerseys from NFL.com with Vick's number 7 and the name "MEXICO" on the back, as a reference to his lawsuit. The NFL has since banned customizing jerseys with the name Mexico.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Mexico#Early_incidents

Knowingly giving another person herpes without informing them. Sure sounds like someone capable of change to me.

[Critters2]

11. Yep. Only quit because he was caught.

And even then, he lied to obstruct justice.

[flvegan]

13. He's never shown remorse for what he did to those dogs.

Not to this day.

[Critters2]

16. I know. It's disgusting. nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

4. Not possible to answer with any degree of certainty.

Your poll should reflect that.

[waiting for hope]

5. I think so - there is a certain amount of

depravity to engage in that kind of behavior. He was making money from it, thus I would say yes.

[armyowalgreens]

6. What exactly is the purpose of this poll?

[BlooInBloo]

7. To drum up outrage, and support for punishing a crime that Vick WOULD HAVE committed.

Because that's how "true progressives" roll.

[jaysunb]

17. "roll", or "troll ? "

:evilfrown:

[BlooInBloo]

18. (shrug) "tomato", "tomato".

[cherokeeprogressive]

8. It's someone's way of taking the scenic route to I Hate Michael Vick city. n/t

[LostInAnomie]

14. Just curious as to when he had the revelation that it's wrong to have dogs tear each other apart.

It appears that it never occurred to him before he was arrested. And somehow, in a mere 20 months, he came to that realization. Now, he "regrets" his actions and is doing all he can to publicly show contrition. I'm just curious as to the change of heart. Was it miraculous? Would it happened on it's own without being caught? Is 20 months in jail all it takes to pull a 180 on your own morality? Or, is it all a bunch of disingenuous PR?

[armyowalgreens]

19. Many convicts don't realize how wrong they were until they get caught...

So I find your poll completely pointless. It proves nothing but the biases of DUers.

[LostInAnomie]

25. Yeah, that's an amazing coincidence, isn't it?

It's amazing how much realizing your wrong when you are caught looks like being sorry because you got caught. It's also amazing how much "working to right your wrongs" looks exactly like generating good PR. Especially, when cameras are there to catch it.

[WillParkinson]

26. What bias?

Just curious.

[downeyr]

30. I'm guessing

that his revelation came at about the time that he was arrested, or maybe when he was sentenced, or maybe not until he got another chance to play foo-ball! When do people without an inner censor develop one? About the time that they get caught or when they realize the advantages of espousing remorse. He fucking tortured dogs--animals who had no choice regarding their association with him--they couldn't call the cops or get out of a relationship with the abuser. They were taught to be vicious and wild and kill or be killed for the entertainment/profit of those people who watched it happen. I'm not a member of PETA or anything, but I still think that Michael Vick is a piece of shit.

[LostInAnomie]

31. Yep, that would be my guess too.

[Strong Atheist]

38. Belated Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[downeyr]

45. Thanks very much! Cheers! n/t

[Strong Atheist]

46. Look forward to seeing more of your posts! eom.

[mitchum]

10. What is the nature of a thing?

[TiredOldMan]

20. No doubt in my mind!

[Strong Atheist]

37. Belated Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[mamaleah]

23. Why not? How many criminals stop because they suddenly get a conscience?

And they are usually only sorry they got caught....

[mitchum]

24. Did he paint pictures of Jesus...with dogs while in prison?

If he had engaged in one of the all time favorite "I'm really remorseful; please let me out" ploys (with that particular addition),
I would certainly be convinced of his change of heart!

[BlooInBloo]

28. In the closest accessible possible world to the actual world in which Vick was not caught...

Vick continues to dogfight.

So the answer is yes.

[Maru Kitteh]

29. Vick remains, and likely will always be a soulless, repellent waste of carbon atoms

He is only sorry about being caught.

I wish so much that I believed any good will come from his 'alliance' or whatever you want to call it with the HSUS. I know they are far more experienced than I in these matters, and I con only hope that their wisdom ultimately proves me very wrong.

:(

[pampango]

36. Don't you have to "hit bottom" before you deal with your "demons"?

Getting arrested and serving time might have been his "bottom". Whether he has really "dealt with his demons" or is just putting on a show to make lots of money, I have no idea.

[fascisthunter]

39. yes, but his cruelty tells me otherwise

I just don't see how one can do as he did, and then change. But, I hope I am wrong.

[chrisa]

40. The real question is, will he resume dogfighting now?`

And the answer is probably yes.

[pitohui]

44. i think there's zero chance that he will resume dogfighting

let him gamble on men beating each other senseless like the rest of us...

[pitohui]

43. i'm told he was tipped he was being raided and didn't believe they'd target him

so i vote "yes," based on the info i have

for whatever reason he refused to believe he'd be singled out

the other (older) man retired and will not fight animals again, so he won't be prosecuted even tho fighting animals was his lifetime career, rather than a sideline

vick just couldn't accept that, at the end of the day, being a rich successful guy is still trumped by being a black guy they can make an example out of -- according to what i hear, he was TOLD he needed to stop due to the federal investigation, he just wouldn't believe what he was told

few if any get such harsh punishments for fighting animals, so i guess he had no reason to believe the other man's tip but a look in the mirror might have suggested to vick that it would go more harshly on him (a prominent black male "catch") than it would have on the other guy (good ole white boy) -- it's just the way the world works and no use being naive/arrogant about it

vick thought he was too big to fail, but that's only for white guys, IMHO, and he should have known it -- there's a lot of racism in this world, like it or not, want to believe you can be a success and overcome it or not

i'm not going to get pulled into discussing the morality of fighting dogs in a world where it's legal to fight men, other than to say a 20 month sentence was ridiculous but he got it more for stupidity/arrogance rather than for killing dogs, something people do every day at most animal shelters across america, we don't CARE if dogs are killed, as long as they are killed in a pretty fashion i suppose