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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:50 PM
Original message
The US has always been a country of violence

There seems to be amazement, even here on DU, that mobs of angry white folks have been whipped
into a frenzy --and might be prone to violence--concerning the reform of health care insurance.
There is a growing anxiety that these angry mobs will erupt into violence. I wouldn't bet against it;
I would wager that's precisely what the voices encouraging the protests want to see.


"Increasingly, Americans are a people without history, with only memory, which means a people poorly prepared for what is inevitable about life -- tragedy, sadness, moral ambiguity -- and therefore a people reluctant to engage difficult ethical issues." - -- Elliot Gorn, "Professing History: Distinguishing Between Memory and Past," Chronicle of Higher Education (April 28, 2000).



The overwhelming majority of American historians have not studied, written about, or discussed America's "high violence" environment, not because of a lack of hard information or knowledge about the frequent and widespread use of violence, but because of an unwillingness to confront the reality that violence and American culture are inextricably intertwined.

Many prominent historians recognized this years ago.

In the introduction to his 1970 collection of primary documents, "American Violence: A Documentary History," two-time Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Richard Hofstadter wrote: "What is impressive to one who begins to learn about American violence is its extraordinary frequency, its sheer commonplaceness in our history, its persistence into very recent and contemporary times, and its rather abrupt contrast with our pretensions to singular national virtue." Indeed, Hofstadter wrote the "legacy" of the violent 1960s would be a commitment by historians systematically to study American violence.

But most American historians have studiously avoided the topic or somehow clouded the issue. In 1993, in his magisterial study, "The History of Crime and Punishment in America," for example, Stanford University Historian Lawrence Friedman devoted a chapter to the many forms of American violence. Then, in a very revealing chapter conclusion, Friedman wrote: "American violence must come from somewhere deep in the American personality ... cannot be accidental; nor can it be genetic. The specific facts of American life made it what it is ... crime has been perhaps a part of the price of liberty ... American violence is still a historical puzzle." Precisely what is it that historians are unwilling to discuss? Basically, there are three forms of American violence: mob violence, interpersonal violence, and war.

<snip>

M.I.T. Historian Robert Fogelson, in his 1971 book, "Violence as Protest: a Study of Riots and Ghettos," concluded that "for three and a half centuries Americans have resorted to violence in order to reach goals otherwise unattainable ... indeed, it is hardly an exaggeration to say that the native white majority has rioted in some way and at some time against every minority group in America and yet Americans regard rioting not only as illegitimate but, even more significant, as aberrant."


For the full article and a discussion of "three forms of American violence: mob violence, interpersonal violence, and war."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17195.htm
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's a widespread myth that Americans are a peace-loving people.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. And that the U.S. is a 'force for good' in the world
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. +1
a-effing-men!
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. That's true, in general..
But it also dismisses all the good that individual Americans have done throughout our history.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. also, it dismisses the fact
or at least the OP doesn't mention the fact that many countries are far more violent than we are. many others have lower homicide rates than us, but higher violent crime in general (robbery, rape, aggravated burglary) such as the UK.

look at the recent violent rioting in france, for instance. there are areas in paris that the police are literally afraid to go to, much like in the US.

but i agree. we are a violent country. i fully support RKBA and disagree with those that think guns are the problem. they aren't. we are simply a violent culture.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #16
120. It's not that other countries are violent also ...
... it's the enormous PR/propaganda effort behind the U.S. that suggests the exact opposite of what the reality is. If you're an evil bastard, and pretty much make it known that you are, well, that's bad, but at least if it's up front one knows what they're dealing with. However, the evil bastard who, despite many miles of clear-cut evidence, insists he's not what he is...that's America, and in my view, is all the more worse for being dishonest about the intentions and motives fueling the actions/inactions.
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Paladin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
124. When A Huge Quantity Of Easily-Available Guns........
....is superimposed on a country as violent as the U.S., it's a problem. Daily proof of this is available in your morning newspaper.....
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #124
129. that's not proof
i work this "extremely violent country". i've been to shootings, stabbings, fights, etc. i've been shot at, been in shootouts etc. you don;'t need to tell me this is a violent country. it does not therefore follow that the availability of guns contributes to the violence. sorry, correlation and causation are two different things.

i happen to live in a state where firearms carry is well protected and also has a quite low violent crime rate. heck, seattle is a right to carry locale, where you don't even need a permit to carry openly. we have a lower violent crime rate when comparing demographic to demographic than vancouver canada, a like sized city to our north.

i have seen no evidence that confirms that availability of firearms is a causal factor
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BOG PERSON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. It's a widespread myth among Americans that Americans are a peace-loving people.
I don't think anybody else suffers from that illusion.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. Unlike the peacefulness in so many other countries
Edited on Thu Aug-13-09 01:24 PM by stray cat
:sarcasm: or between countries for so many years.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Comparison to other countries is not the point.
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nonsequitur Donating Member (88 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
51. really! This article is bullshit. ..........................
I'm sick of the our country being called the evil boogeyman.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #51
76. Nobody's calling it the evil boogeyman. The reality though, is
different from the myth and the article makes the point that historians have tended to ignore
the reality in favor of the myth.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. "native White majority"??
Um. Our history of violence goes back farther than that.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Indeed. Native Americans treated their enemies and captives....
in manners far, far more brutal and violent that we do today.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. absolute bullshit
but you already know that :nuke:
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. No, quite the opposite. Many of the tribes were notorious for....
the torture they inflicted on their captives. We do nothing similar to what they did.

You can deny history all you'd like, but then there it is, staring you back in the face.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. i don't deny anything
but to claim, falsely as you did, that they were worse than what americans are doing right now is iraq and afghanistan is complete bullshit.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Kindly show where I said that. I made zero mention of...
Iraq and/or AFG.

Regardless of that, I don't see anywhere where we're burning people to death for torture, flaying them to death or cutting their hearts out while they're still alive.

What's bullshit is to mischaracterize my position by claiming I said something that I didn't.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Then you must have been asleep the day they taught European History.
Edited on Thu Aug-13-09 03:25 PM by EFerrari
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. No, I'm quite aware of it. Where and when did we, in America...
draw and quarter people, and to what extent?

This is an exercise in futility, since all cultures that I know of have some history of torture and what we now consider to be brutal mistreatment of prisoners/captives.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. You don't get away with calling native people more brutal
and then dancing away from that statement.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. And I clearly stated "than we are today".
Edited on Thu Aug-13-09 03:53 PM by Beer on a stick
How many hearts do you see us cutting out in ritual sacrifice nowadays?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. So, leaving captives in storage containers to die in the desert is not as bad?
What about torturing by cutting up a penis with a scalpel? What about gang raping a 15 year old, killing her and burning her body -- after you kill her family, for good measure.

Does it matter if you cut out a heart or just kill innocent people from the sky with drones?

Good luck with that comparison. No native people was ever as casually murderous as we are.

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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. I am sick about such ignorance...and we wonder why those guilty
of torturing in bush's world are walking away scott free....if you don't see it for yourself who cares...people like that make me physically ill...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. It's not only ignorance, it's also a willful misrepresentation of others.
I guess firebombming urban centers or dropping nukes on them is just our way of saying "hello".
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #46
79. He or she is the type I have no doubt that believe they should just nuke the lot of them
and move on....they don't see them as human...they honestly don't, they ignore the pain on the faces of small children, the tear stained faces of those that have benefited from our supposed reason for invading Iraq with death, starvation and sickness...we done good is all they see because we have bigger guns and are "americans" everyone else need not apply...
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #79
86. You have absolutely zero idea what you're talking about.
Nice bizarro-land extrapolations you have there.
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #86
105. Sure I do...just from reading what you've typed on several posts it's pretty obvious
where you rate...now if your just messing around and attempting a dual personality in order to annoy than well, your just as sad...because this is not one of those issues that need needling for fun...
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. Sorry, you're way out of line. From reading that I think....
history shows that Native American tribes were far more brutal to captives than we are now, you somehow, magically, get the conclusion that I don't think people in the ME are human and I just want to nuke them wholesale.

I'm sorry, I don't think you're intellectual honest enough to continue to any communication.
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #106
118. And why your at it...your researching I mean for real historical facts...
check out what early american citizens did to the indian woman and children and men in florida, georgia, south carolina and north carolina...might make you rethink your assertions that we are not just as guilty of the utmost cruelty toward other human beings......

As a side note..such actions taken by the early settlers toward unprotected indian woman and children including infants was not even truly remarked upon simply because in their minds they were nothing more than animals...thats historical fact though we are not taught about it in school...god forbid we tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth..

Fact is that history is written by the survivor and the winner....and as such, I have no doubt, the truth is somewhere in the middle...
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #34
45. Let's see here.......
Leaving men to die in containers is a terrible thing. Downright evil.

However, it was not done by the US gov't and it doesn't compare to the ritualistic torture/murder of tens of thousands of captives by having their hearts cut out.

If you can't see that, we have nothing more to discuss.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Yes, it was co-ordinated by US Special Forces and it was done more than once.
But even that pales in comparison to the firebombing of Japan and Germany, or dropping Agent Orange all over Southeast Asia.

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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. Again, you're making specious comparisons.
I've been discussing this in terms of prisoners and captives, and you're attempting to insert situations that have nothing to do with those.

Sorry, I don't play those games.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. Nope. You claimed we didn't do the shipping containers
on top of all your other claims.

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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. I'm sorry, could you point out where I said that?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. Here
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Ah, I see. I stand by my statement.
To what extent, if any, US forces were involved is unknown and unproven. They were in the area, and that's the extent of our knowledge.

You, conversely, chose to portray this as a proven, accpeted fact, for whatever reason.

Suffice it to say, we disagree.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. Special Forces worked with Dostum. They're weren't "in the area".
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. That link doesn't support your contention, doesn't show....
that they coordinated it.

And yet you present it as fact.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. If you're waiting for a confession, you're going to wait a long time.
We hired Dostum. He didn't crap without our permission.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. No, I'm simply waiting for you to back up your claim.
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #72
117. Your just choosing to ignore the obvious...hope you can sleep at night..have no doubt
you sleep like a baby...
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. Nor do you see native americans doing that either in this day and age...
everyone did such things back then and knowing that our government still condones such brutal practices in this day and age in regards to torturing those that they deem guilty before trial your attempt to ignore our complicity in such continued violent tortures is beyond sick .........
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Nor have I claimed that they do such things today.
Kindly cite for me where our government today condones captives and prisoners to death or cutting out their hearts.
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. do you see something wrong with this post of yours? Besides the spelling
Edited on Thu Aug-13-09 04:02 PM by AuntPatsy
Beer on a stick (79 posts) Thu Aug-13-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #5

7. Indeed. Native Americans treated their enemies and captives....
in manners far, far more brutal and violent that we do today.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. No, sorry, I don't.
And if you're down to criticizing spelling, we really don't have much to talk about.
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #49
78. People like you are whats wrong with this country....you simply ignore the evil as long as it does
not touch you personaly...and to be honest with you I not only find that very sad but I find that pathetic....humanity at it's finest...
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #78
85. No, not in the least. I tend not to see things in the histrionic manner
that so far has characterized your responses to me.

You have no idea who I am or what I have or haven't ignored.

What's pathetic is your attempt to pigeonhole me without actually reading what I write.
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #41
81. Your kidding me right??? Oh my, you need to so a bit of researching....
Not only is our prison system a pathetic joke and nothing more than a tool for the wealthy to continue to remain wealthy but it is also a place where many innocent lives have been left to rot to be tortured if not by each other than by the system itself...we don't condone prisoners to death? What planet do you live on? Because on my planet such events are surely happening even as I type this..but go ahead and ignore it...hopefully you never find yourself in such a position...
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. What I'll ignore is your failure to directly answer my question
and appeals to emotion rather than logic and rationality.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
75. One must always be careful to draw a distinction...
One must always be careful to draw a distinction between a standard cultural practice and an isolated aberration.

However, I would be most intrigued to see you present some valid, peer-reviewed information which states that native Amerindians did, as a course of habit ingrained into their culture, that which you allege...
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #75
87. I've found plenty of historical documentation in regards to
many tribes utilizing torture on their captives. It's not particularly hard to find.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #87
96. I would love to entertain any valid, peer-reviewed material
I would love to entertain any valid, peer-reviewed material you have which states that torture was part and parcel of the indigenous Amerindian culture as a whole rather than an aberration.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. I'm sure you would.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #98
100. And yet you supply us with nothing but opinion and editorial.
And yet you supply us with nothing but opinion and editorial, lacking substantive information. Kind of like what a.m. radio talk show hosts do...
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. I can supply you with plenty of links, but it's disingenuous on your part
to pretend that any peer-reviewed, 'valid' (whatever that is, in this case) 'studies' will be part of the exchange, or even relevant to it, on an Internet discussion board, given the nature of such boards and how people communicate on them.

IOW, I'm not going to play your games.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. Not games...
Not games (but I can see the convenience of calling it such)-- I'm simply asking for relevant source material to validate your claims. Games on a message board would be more akin to making a claim, not backing it up, and telling posters who ask for source material that they are playing 'games'... Or telling posters that the relevant is not relevant, or that citing sources is not apropos.

However, if you feel justified in digging your feet in, and believe that appropriate lines of questioning is simply playing "games", then maybe we should bring this to a halt. My mistake-- I took you as sincere, rather than dogmatic.

(I'm sure you know the academic definition of 'valid'; however, if not I can supply you with some valid, peer-reviewed links as to what it is...).
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. Most definitely games. You're asking for academic materials one moment...
and then when called on the ridiculousness of this, you back off and now only want 'relevant source material'.

Again, I can supply plenty of links, but you're living in a special type of fantasy land if you're seriously requesting peer-reviewed, academic quality research materials, and you know it.

And then, irony of irony, you offer to supply me with links to something.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. Relevant source material denies Academic source material?
Relevant source material denies Academic source material?

Peer-reviewed source materials are anything from a college textbook, to a course syllabus, to a thesis, to a foot-noted work of non-fiction. It's not that difficult, and is rather enlightening.

(My offer was predicated on your ignorance of the academic definition of 'valid'. If you don't know, then you get links. If you do, it would be waste of both our times.)

Can you supply us with valid, peer-reviewed link to validate your claims? It's an easy question if one avoids the trap-dancing you've been supplying us with.

Yes? or No? If yes, I would love to see them and continue the discussion.

If no, then continue your self-aggrandizing editorials, but please avoid stating them as absolutes.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. Yes, I'm aware of what they are, thanks.
And no, I don't think you're actually interested in an honest exchange, for reasons I've already stated, nor meaningful discourse. You set a ridiculously high standard for a communication medium totally unsuited for it. Again, I can supply links, I cannot supply academic materials, nor do I hold them as particularly more valid than what I could supply.

As for self-aggrandizing editorials, I'll leave you to your rather smug opinion.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #108
109. Observation rather than opinion on my part.
Edited on Thu Aug-13-09 06:49 PM by LanternWaste
"I'll leave you to your rather smug opinion..." Observation rather than opinion on my part (see: Editorial vs. Thesis Statement).

And if you feel better validated in believing that I'm being insincere in asking relevant questions and for relevant material to back up some rather dramatic claims you've made, that's actually an indictment on you-- not me.

I imagine I could claim that Saturn is made of rainbows and puppy dogs, and I would be rather disappointed if no one asked me to back that up, and everyone took that as a gospel simply because I said it as such. I also imagine I could remove myself from that corner and save face at the same time simply by stating that "backing up my claims is not appropriate for a message board", all the while stating emphatically that Saturn is made of rainbows. But I happen to think that's lazy and ineffectual.

(One may supply quite easily a valid, peer-reviewed link as well, but I imagine that suggestion would simply be taken as more aggression on my part by you...)

Ed. sp
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #109
110. And on mine, as well. Again, if you want links, I have them.
If you want university level, academic materials, I don't.

So, which is it?
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #75
90. .
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #90
97. Is the act in your pictogram part and parce
Is the act in your pictogram part and parcel of the Amerindian culture as a whole? Or was it merely relegated to particular tribal regions?
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. Wait a sec. First you question it as being an aberration, now....
Edited on Thu Aug-13-09 06:04 PM by Beer on a stick
you're questioning if it was 'relegated' to a particular tribal region?

It's not at all clear what you're interested in.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #99
103. a particular tribal region would be a cultural aberration when discussing
Relegated to a particular tribal region would be a cultural aberration when discussing the Amerindians as a whole. But I thought you said I was "playing games" (that's correct, yes?) and wouldn't waste any more of your time on me... :shrug:

Obtuse.. or simply dogmatic?
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
33. Are you serious?????? Ummmmm ever take a look at the little props
used by OUR european ancestors that they lovingly made to torture those they did not like or agree with????? And ummmmmmm since you lack a true knowledge of our american history, surely even you would recall the salem witch trials performed by ummm wait for it...white americans......

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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Are you serious?
I clearly stated 'than we are today', meaning a comparison to how they were then to how we are now.

As for salem, they were hung. Not tortured.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #38
63. Oh, yes they did torture: Early Colonial Torture
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Again: I was specifically addressing what happened at Salem.
And you are not.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Yes, I am. There was torture at Salem. n/t
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #38
82. You miss history classes? Or did you just ignore the lessons..
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #82
88. Yawn. I see you're not willing to address what's actually being said...
so I'm done with you.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. What about those bombings of black churches
What about the dragging deaths.

What about those lynchings that drew picnicking crowds of thousands.

I won't post the pictures.

No, indigenous peoples had nothing like that taste for human blood.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. But, of course, they did. Aztecs cut out living hearts by the thousands...
Indigenous people are as bloodthirsty as anyone else.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. That wasn't your assertion but nice try.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. But, of course, that was exactly my assertion.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. Nope. This was your assertion:
Edited on Thu Aug-13-09 04:03 PM by EFerrari
Indeed. Native Americans treated their enemies and captives....

in manners far, far more brutal and violent that we do today.

You're simply wrong. As far as I know, no native people set up a school to teach torture to the military forces of our allies as we have at Ft. Benning.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Your comparison is specious.
I directly indicated out captives, as in, the US's captives. While despicable and utterly horrific, what our allies do is not what our gov't does.

Again, since you don't seem to understand this: we do not burn prisoners to death, we do not flay them to death, we do not violently cut out their hearts. Back then, native Americans did.

Get it?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. My comparison is perfectly apt. Not only do we do those things,
we export the technology.

Of course, native peoples didn't have airplanes to throw people out of over the ocean as we did in the dirty wars in Central America. So, we win!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. That's wrong. I don't remember Europeans counting coup in battle, do you?
And the French and Spanish introduced Europeans torture techniques to this continent.

You must be reading some other history.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. There is plenty of historical documentation of Native Americans....
burning and flaying people alive and cutting their hearts out. Do you deny this?

As for introducing european torture to the continent, that should be self-evident: the French and the Spanish were, after all, European.

And how is counting coup even remotely relevant to this?

What history have you been reading? There are no noble savages.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. The Europeans did all of that and worse and more and brought
their methods here.

And counting coup is alternative to slaughter. That should be obvious.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. No, they were basically the equivalent. Violent torture to the point of death...
is pretty much violent torture to the point of death, regardless of which culture is committing it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Counting coup is not torture or death. n/t
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Nor is it even remotely relevant to what we're talking about.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Of course it is. Counting coup is much less violence than tasing
soccer moms at traffic stops. You bet it's relevant.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. We're discussing relative torture. Counting coup has nothing to do...
with that. It's irrelevant, IOW.

You may as well try to bring up algebra or the city gov't of Perth as relevant.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #42
58. Nope. You say you were talking about captives.
The practice of counting coup is in stark contrast to killing in battle or even taking captives.

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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. It's also obviously irrelevant. We're done here.
You can't seem to stay on topic, so I'll let you have the last word.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Translation: If you disallow our violence and don't count native practices
that are less violent, you can still maintain your mistaken belief.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #39
50. Question, what's the point of this argument?
Both Native Americans and Europeans are human and therefore violent. Aside from cultures and tech levels they were (still aren't) any different from each other.

I'd be impressed if either of you could name a culture/nation that was entirely peaceful. Because I sure can't think of one.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. Ding! Ding! We have a winner.
A refreshing draught of reason and logic in a dry, dry world.

Thanks.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. The poster asserted a claim that native people were far more brutal
than we are today. Which is false, not to mention, a calumny. And claiming that all cultures are violent isn't responsive to the issue of the violence in ours. I'm sorry, that's just a way to avoid it.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #50
92. word
n/t
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
119. You mean all those "captives"
they had before white men showed up? :eyes:
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #119
121. Why? Did you have some others in mind?
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #121
123. There were no other "captives".
Therefore your argument is straw.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #123
125. Go read some history. Native Americans were frequently....
at war with each other, and they took captives.

No strawman there other than you attempting to inject race into the issue, just basic history that you never learned.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #125
126. The OP used the term "WHITE"
I injected nothing. Go away.
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Beer on a stick Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #126
128. So what? I wasn't addressing that, but rather a tangetial point.
Your 'before the white man' bit is a strawman, and transparently so.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #128
130. You deserve to be on my Ignore list
with those of your stripe.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. read the full article.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
8. It's our national religion
The High Church of Redemptive Violence, complete with its own mythos, liturgy, holy relics, priests, acolytes, saints and rituals.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
10. Drew the attention of somebody who unrec'd!
Let's not tell the truth about Americans!
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Richard D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
12. A friend of mine used to say . . .
"Founded on the enslavement of one race and the genocide of another."
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
77. Succinct.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
18. homo sapiens has always been a species of violence
the people in the United States are no exception.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. Violence is a product of empire. We're just the last in a long line.
Edited on Thu Aug-13-09 03:34 PM by EFerrari
ETA: I should say, violence on our scale.
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Caliman73 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
61. True, and like many other nations, we try to separate ourselves from the fact .
We do so by any means necessary. We lie, we justify, we compare and say, "at least we never did..." I don' think that there is a nation on earth that accepts that they have been violent and have done things that would rightfully be considered criminal either presently or in its history.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #61
83. Modern Germany has renounced the violence and criminality of WW II.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #83
95. Considering that if they didn't, they'd be shunned to this day, they really didn't have a choice
Most other European nations (for example) have BRUTAL histories... but most of those nations haven't been called on the carpet to apologize.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #95
112. Anything Nazi is not tolerated in Germany now, unlike here in the U.S.
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BOG PERSON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #83
115. Modern Germany only renounces the violence and criminality of WWII
because Nazi Germany was militarily defeated.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
111. that's not what Krugman wrote
"If America's record is better than that of most countries — and it is — it's because of our system: our tradition of openness, and checks and balances.

Yet Mr. Bush, despite all his talk of good and evil, doesn't believe in that system." Paul Krugman


Plus, you conveniently forget that we invented freedom, and prosperity, and (on the day of Les Paul's death) the electric guitar!


USA! USA! USA! :patriot: :P

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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #111
113. Our personal violence is not better than most countries.
Edited on Thu Aug-13-09 07:02 PM by mnhtnbb
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
54. We're a violent nation? Well knock me down. That must mean we're human.
That would be more earth-shattering news if someone could point out a nation that isn't violent.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
69. What country hasn't?

Show me that place, and I'll show you how your wrong.

Are we more violent? Maybe, but other countries got it out of their systems a long time ago, or 60 years ago in Europes case.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
73. "...as American as cherry pie"
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
74. I personally, blame Mott the Hoople
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deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
80. It's a shame we can't leave the earth to the animals.
Edited on Thu Aug-13-09 05:17 PM by deaniac21
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
89. I'll add just one thing... it is not only a violent country
and for the record my instructors did not shy away from it, especially at the Masters level.

But it is also an ignorant country with a fair dose of self serving religion.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. Ignorant, for damn sure! n/t
Edited on Thu Aug-13-09 05:42 PM by Fire1
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
93. When you said "mobs of white folks" I immediately thought "imagine if they were black"
Why does white skin give one special privileges?
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AnnInLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
94. Doesn't mean it's a GOOD thing!
Oh Please, that's been the right-wing talking point for ages and ages! They are stuck in the "Old West" and think they are all John Wayne.

I heard a men's panel on domestic violence. Many of the men said that the women they married knew they were violent before they married, so it's their women who are at fault for the violence in the marriage. Just because those men have always been violent doesn't excuse the violence.

Jesus would cry.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #94
114. Did you read the essay? Nobody said it was a good thing.
Edited on Thu Aug-13-09 07:07 PM by mnhtnbb
The essay talks about how the reality of America's violent past has been ignored by historians.

My point is that the angry mobs we are seeing being encouraged by the right wing are not
something new; angry white mobs have been a fact of life throughout history in the U.S.

Did you learn that in school? Or did you learn that Americans are peaceful?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #94
116. Read the essay but I will sum for you the main theses
the country is violent, and relishes violence, and historians have done all they can NOT to discuss it and this is a bad thing.

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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
122. What other country has rockets and bombs in it's national anthem?
h/t to George Carlin
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #122
127. I haven't sung The Star Spangled Banner for years. It's sad.
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