The Health Care Bill Is Not Even Written Yet But Some DU'ers Are Defeatists Anyway

[KittyWampus]

It makes me want to scream.

Why do some DU'ers have to act like a crappy bill is accomplished fact?

It seems like some DU'ers are invested in making sure progress is defeated before the main battles have even begun.

It's one thing to highlight actions by politicians that go against what you want to happen. To complain about them. That is healthy.

But more and more I see defeatism being indulged in especially after the last week or so of Republican ringers showing up to disrupt Town Hall Meetings.

If you don't have the stomach for a fight, please step out of the way. MOST of us here want to keep kicking ass.

And please don't try the "party cheerleader" crap. This has nothing to do with people pointing out Democratic weaklings/turn coats. That's not what my post is referring to.

I'm talking about the "the Democrats have their pockets lined with Insurance money and nothing is going to change".

If that's your attitude at this point in early August, and you're going to just accept it, you are part of the problem.

[kentuck]

1. The President needs to give us something to fight for.

Give us some specifics. We have no idea what we are fighting for?

[KittyWampus]

6. You don't know what you want in a Health Care Bill? You have no demands?

[kentuck]

9. Yes, I know what I want.

I want portability to keep my coverage if I leave my job. I want to choose my doctor. I want dental benefits with medical. I want to pay a reasonable price. I want a single-payer system.

Which of these plans have these benefits?

[Skidmore]

8. kentuck, you are so on target. I wish I could rec this respons but I'll be happy to

kick the thread to the top again. There is no organization on ourside and no money to support it right now. AND we have been handicapped by our congressional and senatorial leadership and elected officials.

[kentuck]

12. We have been handicapped by our leaders...

They have confused the issue by coming up with so many different bills in different committees, we have no idea what we are fighting for. They have only confused the issue instead of uniting behind a single idea.

[ProSense]

18. Start

here and here.

[rocktivity]

2. It's the runups to the Iraq invasion and the elections of 2006 and 2008 all over again

This month is supposed to be devoted to defeating the bill--that's why a vote on it was arranged to be delayed. The media, who stands to lose out on health insurance and big pharma ad revenues, are aiding and abetting them by covering the town hall screamers but ignoring their right-wing lobbyist backers!

:headbang:
rocktivity

[flyarm]

3. I guess so is Durbin...what do you want..us to support something that is not even written as you say

????????????

If it is not written yet, as * you * say, then wtf are we supposed to be supporting?? and don't you think we should discuss what is being touted at least ..and debate what should be in any bill that will decide our health coverage??????? or are we suppose to just go buy a set of pom poms and take what ever gets dished out to us.. and not even look at what we get as health coverage...you are delusional..I don 't ignore what is going to effect me and my children and grandchildren and the future children of this country..i don't give a rats ass who is running my government..it is my responsibility according to the constitution to pay damn close attention and fight for what is right and fight against what is wrong!

got a problem with that?????????

Here let me turn over to you and this pres and congress my health insurance..which happens to be good insurance and let you fuck it up whatever way you want..is that what you want me to say..while i toss around my pom poms????????

Should i just be so happy that i keep reading, from very legit sources, that all but the very poorest among us will be mandated to buy this new plan, that we don't know wtf it is according to you, since it isn't written you say.............and if you don't buy the mandated insurance you will be fined..well hey get a clue folks..if they don't have insurance now..it is because people can't afford it..so now our government will mandate you to buy it..wow what a great policy ..won't it be..you will be forced to buy "the plan that is not written yet" according to you ..no matter how good or bad it might be!


Even Durbin is bailing..because what you are being led down the rosey path to is a piece of shit!


Oh and PS..i want every man woman and child in this country to have the coverage i have..real insurance and real healthcare without losing everything they work for brankrupt because they don't!

I have lived in Canada..and i know damn well what i paid for meds there..and it is a disgrace that i paid 189.00 for my sons allergy meds here in the states for 6 pills and got 36 in Toronto buying them over the counter in the drug store for $8.00 Canadian..at the time equivlent to approx $6 bucks american!

Oh and the $189.00 didn't include going to the doc for the prescription !

don't piss on my leg and tell me it is raining..I am going to know what deals have been cut and what the coverage is before i ever support anything that will effect health care in this country that isn't even touted as National Health care, or Universal Health care!..and i am soooooooooo sorry if you don't approve..if you want to cheerlead crap ..you go right ahead, but do not assume that any intelligent American who has fought for real reforms is going to follow you like sheeple!

[KittyWampus]

7. Well, one would think an INFORMED Dem posting on DU would have positions to advocate for inclusion

The pathetic thing is the Republican stooges are out protesting the NON-EXISTANT Health Care Bill despite what it may or may not end up containing.

[flyarm]

13. hey you are the one who claimed it wasn't written..and please do not assume i have not been out

working for national health care..that would be a wrong assumption!

oh and PS..I have been an elected dem in my county ..have you ever been?? I think i have a real good idea of what I am saying..so are you saying I am uninformed????? guess again..

I have been around too long to not know what "horseshit" looks like ..dressed up in a fairy costume!


Oh and PSSSS for many years I wrote a Bi-weekly Democratic news column in a newspaper for two counties that are the anchor of the I-4 corridor in Florida..one of the most important voting blocks in the nation..
and I ran an extremely large national internet group..for 8 years..and i do the research for a very Large Florida internet group and in NJ as well.

Un-informed????? not likely.

[wininboy]

4. So let's make some happy-talk about how wonderful the mythical plan will be

while the democrats, THE FREEKIN DEMOCRATS, tear everything worth fighting for out of the bill

[KittyWampus]

5. thanks for illustrating my point so well.

[wininboy]

11. So let's hear the happy-talk

Tell me how great it is that I can't see a doctor for my medical conditions while the dems go on a recess.

on edit: The fact that you had to resort to a personal attack shows you got nothing but hate to offer

[KittyWampus]

30. Happy Talk? Another great example of someone whose only goal is apparently to complain

on a message board.

[babylonsister]

17. What's been torn out? Do tell. nt

[wininboy]

19. Single payer, Medicare for all, negotiating prices, competing with private insurers

a public option that's actually an option the public can buy into, a realistic start date for the pgm (ie not in 2013)

Now, do tell us what's so great about the pgm so far?

[babylonsister]

20. Got a link to what's been passed?

Got a link to anything indicating this admin actively promoted single payer? Or, for that matter, anything you've mentioned? When was Medicare for all banished? I never knew that was an option.

What dream world are you living in?

[wininboy]

23. Is that all you have?

Is your defense of the health reform effort really going to be "But they've done nothing!!"

The "dream world" I live in is the one where I don't get health care I need because I can't afford it. Excuse me for being cranky

What's your excuse?

Do you have insurance?

[babylonsister]

24. And you got nothing except your misinformed opinion.

Put up a link if you assert something so as to better inform everyone. Otherwise, you're lying and sounding just like the r/w we're trying to combat.

[wininboy]

26. You've got nothing but hate-filled personal attacks

Calling me a liar won't hide the fact that you want me to be happy about a non-existant bill

You've got nothing, and when I called you on it, you respond with hate

[babylonsister]

27. Whaaa! Sounding more like a rethug with every post you make.

This isn't hate. I'm looking for truth and you're not providing it. Why is that?

[wininboy]

33. So calling me a liar is how you show your love?

And now saying I sound like a freeper?

Yeah, I can really feel the love

The truth is, the democrats are failing on health, Obama is failing on health care, I am sick, and you think I should be happy about all this

[wininboy]

36. I guess BS's Search for Truth has come to an end

Oh well

[babylonsister]

48. And how does that pizza taste? I knew it!

:rofl:

[DevonRex]

10. Their agenda is to demoralize us to the point that we don't care

anymore. Because they think we'll vote Green next time. :rofl:

[Spazito]

14. Most people, including DUers, aren't watching cable news or posting on

Du right now. Notice how slow the forums are moving compared to earlier, it is very telling, imo. It is August, holidays, gardening, getting the kids ready for school. President Obama's poll numbers are holding steady for good reason.

Because many DUers aren't posting much right now it gives the SMALL minority of doomers and gloomers/all or nothing crowd an opportunity to try and flood the forums with negative OPs/posts making it seem as if more DUers are becoming disappointed while, imo, nothing could not be further than the truth.

[Greyhound]

15. See, the problem with your argument is that it is written, there are currently at least

three versions and none of them even come close to solving anything except that they all agree we need to pour billions of our dollars into the insurance industry, we leave the health care denial industry alone, and that there will absolutely not be anything even remotely like a not-for-profit system accessible to everybody.

Once The Bills (House and Senate versions) are written, it will be too late to do anything. Forcing people into the oligopoly of the insurance industry will only make a horrible situation worse.

[flyarm]

32. Thank you ..100% correct! eom

[Scarsdale Vibe]

37. 100% incorrect you mean

There will be no more rescission, no more denial due to pre-existing conditions, no cost differences due to age or health, no more lifetime limits, a cap of $5000 in out of pocket costs for ANY covered treatment per year, and health care benefits will be regulated by the government. The bills in the House will save lives, save money, cover tens of millions of more people, and will almost entirely eliminate the major reason for family and personal bankruptcy in this country.

Sounds pretty fucking good, but people will still whine that health insurance company employees aren't executed in the public square.

[flyarm]

43. wow are you sorely deluded! how about only 10 million out of 50 million without health care will be

covered..that is 1/5th.......and it won't even begin until 2013..it will not under any circumstances, in the bills proposed right now, cover more than 10 million people..not the " tens of millions" you are saying!

go read one of the 1000 page bill proposals then come back here and tell us what is in these bills ..ok??????

[Greyhound]

46. You are a fool. flyarm has already addressed your falsehoods, so there's no need to repeat

that part. If these corporate welfare proposals sound good to you, one can only surmise that you have a policy and have not been seriously ill in the last 15 or 20 years.

[goclark]

16. Your post is so deserving of positive feedback

I can try to understand why Repubs are frustrated and understand they are not informed,Rush followers and not in office.

I can't understand the need for Progressive "Activists" Democrats to get mad at our Party, especially here at DU.


Huum ~ it makes me wonder.

[Bluenorthwest]

21. So you support that which does not yet exist? No matter what?

Tell you what. Get the discriminatory language out of the bill that goes forward, and I will then take the time to find out the details. As it is, you need to go get your 'support' from Rick Warren. I'm sure he's a fierce advocate for the President, isn't he? Or maybe McClurkin? They must be organizing for him, right? After all he did for them? If not, maybe he bet on the wrong horse, and maybe he will learn a lesson by it.
If the bill fails, it harms you, not me. If it passes it harms me, not you. So what do you think I should do, seeing as I care for my family? Would it not be much better if the bill served all equally?

[KittyWampus]

28. LOL! You make shit up about what I actually wrote. Says more about you.

[wininboy]

35. I'm surprised you won't respond substantively to those legitimate questions

It's your thread. You wrote the OP. I assumed that meant you'd want to discuss the issue. Now, it's seems you started the thread just to bash those who disagree with you.

[Bluenorthwest]

41. Please point out any statement I made up and attributed to you.

In fact, I beg you to do so. Prove your accusation. What did I make up? Nothing. You were asked a question. You were told my view, and what it would take to solidify my support for this reform. I did not make up a thing. A mendacious bit of avoidance of the very points you claimed to want to discuss.
Please. Show us all what I made up. Show one fucking statement attributed to you. There is not one.

[still_one]

22. The Democrats have done a poor job of refuting the lies and misrepresentations

of the republicans, insurance industry, and media

Even the obvious of stating that there isn't even a healthcare bill to debate yet, makes one wonder when there is a bill how well will the Democrats do selling it

This is the main reason DU'ers are concerned

The last 10 years sure haven't represented many Democrats in Congress well. When they rubber stamped most everything that the bush administration sent to them, it doesn't inspire confidence

[SoCalDem]

25. It's not "defeatism"..it's incredulity

about:

sending legislators "out there" to explain something that does not even exist..

We are not unified on ANYTHING, and have nothing concrete to define.

We just created a series of "open-house" venues for every "me-me-mobber" on the other side to disrupt, and to build up an ample supply of sound-bytes & you-tube snippets for a slew of campaign commercials in '10..

Can see them now:

"Congressman _ _ _ _ _ _ is so weak he cannot even run a town hall mneeting..(yuk-yuk-yuk-yuk)." (accompanied by circus music)

or

snippets of conflicting "points" made by several congresspeople..voice over.."democrats cannot even agree with EACH OTHER, and have no idea what they're doing"..vote for_ _ _ _ _ _ "

I think most of us are "upset" about the fact that they are using the "ready, fire, aim" approach to health care reform.

[kentuck]

29. Bingo !

Give us something concrete.

[timeforpeace]

39. +100. Otherwise, the belligerent and demeaning posts by a select few bullies turns off more people.

[ProSense]

31. This

site has been up for months and updated frequently.

[wininboy]

38. Can you explain the plan in three sentences?

Or do you need an entire website to explain that there is no bill?

[ProSense]

42. Here

(click me)

[Zodiak]

34. There are three version of the bill going through Congress

The MOST progressive one (the bill in the house) does not even come close to a public option, and of course the medicare pricing has already been cut out. Only a fool would think that suddenly a strong public option will appear in reconciliation when none of the potential bills featured in the reconciliation have a strong public option.

So the fact that one bill has not been settled is NOT a reason to tell people to shut up with their criticisms. They are correct that NONE of the options available will even begin to reform healthcare, and that is what has them complaining.

Perhaps instead of coming up with another substanceless talking point "but there is no bill yet!", you might want to instead look at the deals that are on the table and tell me if any of them come close to a strong public option. And if not, then why do you choose to meet the criticism with a BS talking point instead of treating your political allies with respect?

[Romulox]

40. Are we not supposed to be reading the news and examining drafts of these bills?

Just shut up until the whole thing is a fait acompli? :eyes:

[Aramchek]

44. they find it easy to complain about Obama

almost as if they opposed him all along.....

[ipaint]

45. 35 years of watching most democrats sell out the working class

time and time again. 35 years of watching the modest gains the working class demanded and received from FDR stripped by both democrat and republican votes. 35 years of swallowing the same bullshit line- "we can improve on it later" and seeing later never materialize and in the process of compromising over and over again corporations just grow more powerful as a result of our endless concessions.

I hoped Obama would be different, he saw and spoke to thousands of those suffering horribly as a result of insurance and drug companies. I hoped he would represent those folks and all of us in the private meetings with pharma etc. I hoped he would be a voice for the majority in this country- the working class.

Didn't happen.

So now it's the same old same old. Settle for less, it's all we can get, it's better than nothing, single payer can't be done, etc.

After 35 years there is one thing I am sure of, those excuses and rationales get us nowhere, severely underestimate our opponents and are used as some kind of "faith in the party litmus test" to shut up those of us who know better.

When the political yes buts finally realize the democrats have lined their pockets with insurance money and nothing is going to change, maybe then things will begin to.

[BlooInBloo]

47. People like to infantilize themselves. This is a kind of "JUST DO SOMETHING DADDY!!!!"...

screaming red-faced and tantrum-style.

[dionysus]

49. because they want to be angry, it's all they know.