What would you consider a "living wage" for a single person?

[Thickasabrick]

I've done searches and can't seem to find anything on this. I realize the minimum wage is not a living wage but really curious as to what the majority feel would be a "living wage".

This would be assuming that this single person would have to outlay whatever they would need for insurance, etc.

The reason I'm asking is that my republican relatives keep insisting that 24,000 a year is a living wage for people and I don't see how that is possible. Especially when you consider almost a fourth of that would have to go to buy private insurance.

[Kalyke]

1. Depends on where you live.

$24,000 is OK if you live in Alabama or Mississippi, but it would be downright poverty level in Florida or parts of New York.

[nytemare]

3. Agreed, in my area of Florida, I would say 30,000.

There are some more rural parts of Florida where 27,000 may be ok.

[ddeclue]

114. I concur... more in Miami/Ft. Lauderdale/WPB though...

probably 35,000 down there (I used to live down there..)

In NYC, Boston, San Fran, WDC figure at least 45,000.

In rural places like Southeast MO, rural GA, AL, figure about 25,000.

[Liberal_in_LA]

4. Los Angeles, life is easier with a car, so higher in LA

[baldguy]

7. $24,000 divided by 40 hrs per week, divided by 50 weeks equals $12.00 per hour.

Assuming 2 weeks unpaid vacation per year.

The federal minimum wage is currently $7.25 per hour.

[Hansel]

62. The standard is to divide by 2080 hours. It would be $11.54.

Use to do payroll.

[PDJane]

15. $36,000 to $48,000....

If you live in a large city. $1,3000 per month is at the low end of the scale for where I live and for any urban area in this country. That means that if you earn $36,000 per year, using the rule of thumb that rent should take no more than 1/3 of your salary, you're already underwater or living in shared digs or.....whatever. That's 17.00 to 23.00 per hour.

Minimum wage here is 9.50 per hour, going to 10.25 per hour in March, 2010. It's closer to a living wage than the US, but not much.

If you have a family, I have to admit I don't know how you can feed them on minimum wage......

And we have universal health care. How the hell do you manage in the US??

[Strong Atheist]

187. Agreed. I live in one of the more expensive areas in the country, and

my salary leaves me comfortable as long as there are no disasters (which always occur sooner or later), but it would be extravagant in many areas of the country...

I am single...

[taterguy]

2. Depends on your definition of living

You might be able to; but I wouldn't want to.

[dkf]

5. Here in Hawaii where a 400 sq foot studio costs $1000/mo to rent

I'd say $50,000 using public transportation. Less if you room with others.

[Mojambo]

6. I make less than that.

But I don't have any kind of health insurance.

As long as I don't get sick it's a "livable" wage.

[Maru Kitteh]

8. Here in central Nebraska I'd say 10 to 12 per hour would be livable.

Enough to pay the rent and bills, food and still be able to put aside a modest savings, if one lives frugally.

[peace13]

9. My son makes 33K in Ohio, with a school loan to repay he lives on a shoe string.

Very tight.

[sandnsea]

10. That would be $1500 after taxes

or thereabouts, right? I think a single person could pay cheap rent, power, basic phone, food, car insurance on that in many places. Those expenses would run around $1100 here, if the person went for the absolute basics. Health insurance might be affordable if the person were young and healthy. An older singler person would be screwn though. And certainly you couldn't even pay rent in most cities. Still, I think that's right around the median personal income.

[hfojvt]

147. why does everybody keep talking about rent, rent, rent?

Cripes. Doesn't anybody buy a house? Why don't we talk about median house payments instead of rent? I have not paid rent in the last 16 years in three locations. I don't think a person is really living if they have to pay rent. And also, my house payments were about $300 a month and I don't think you can even rent a one bedroom for that little here.

[mike_c]

11. I would define it as a wage sufficient to to buy a median princed home...

...in the town where you live. Many folks making that wage will actually be prevented from buying a home by debts or other financial problems, but IMO that is the best standard for general use.

[sandnsea]

13. Wouldn't that be an "achieving" wage

rather than a livable wage. Does someone who works at the 7-11 have a right to make enough money to buy a median priced home?

[Edweird]

58. Why wouldn't they?

[Statistical]

131. Median implies 50% mark. If everyone could afford homes at the 50% mark...

why would there be any need for homes less valuable?

50% of Americans should be able to afford median home price. The very definition of median.

[mike_c]

92. yes, of course they do....

Otherwise it's the worst kind of wage slavery, the kind from which there is no good escape. To do otherwise is to acknowledge that the poor must be kept poor.

[sandnsea]

119. As long as there is a market economy

The bottom wage will never be enough for median income home ownership. The cost of living will always level out with a median standard of living. That's what is happening with housing right now. It will end up bringing in more median income people who were priced out of housing. But if you try to bring the bottom up to the middle, it'll just eventually move the rest of the housing higher. It's feasible if wages are equalized for everyone, but that didn't work so well in the soviet union.

[Hannah Bell]

160. it worked well enough to keep everyone housed.

[hfojvt]

149. well, it is not so bad buying a house that is 75% of median, or less

I am not sure what the median price was in my town when I bought my house, but houses were available from $13,000 to $300,000. Most of the $13,000 houses were occupied by renters, who had rights and could not just be kicked out by new owners. That was one nasty neighborhood too - not because of the people who lived there, but because the houses were packed so close together and there was no grass and no off-street parking. I would not want to buy a house and live there, but some people had presumably been renting there for years, so why wouldn't they be better off buying one of those houses?

One funny thing is that my house cost $35,000 and was in a sorta bad part of town. Supposedly. One of my co-workers invited me to her house that cost $70,000 and it was not nearly as nice as mine. I sorta think I got a $50,000 house that I paid $35,000 for and she got a $35,000 house that she paid $70,000 for.

Median priced home might be a little high. After all, 50% of the area paid less than that for their home, but at least you talk about owning a home, and I am not sure what other value one would use. 70% of median?

[sandnsea]

192. There is no house in my town for less than $100,000

Minimum wage is $8.40 here. If we had houses between $35,000 and $70,000, well our town would be flooded with people from all over the west.

[stray cat]

48. A one br 700 sq ft place here is 400,000 minimum - 80,000 down.

at that rate 100,000 isn't a living wage by your definition. However, it is more than a living wage - you just won't own a home on it.

[sandnsea]

120. Where is that? n/t

[SmileyRose]

12. A living wage for anyone is

enough to secure a safe decent roof over your head - access to medical care - decent healthy food - the ability to travel safely to and from wherever it is you want to go - the resources to maintain these things while disabled by sickness or age.

Where a person lives, and the social resources available are going to change the mix on what a living wage entails. Those without a good security net of family and friends to rely on in times of illness or age are going to need more money to hire those services.

[Morning Dew]

14. I read an estimate 3 or 4 years ago

that in the Minneapolis / St. Paul (MN) metro area you'd need to make about 16 bucks an hour to cover expenses - 1 BR apartment, food, transportaion etc.

So that's about 33 grand a year.

[TahitiNut]

22. $18,553

http://www.livingwage.geog.psu.edu/places/2705343000

[Morning Dew]

25. Ah, there's the number. Hell, I could never live on that.

[TahitiNut]

29. Careful. I've found the Universe has a nasty habit of giving you a lesson in how you're wrong.

Far too often, I've been presented with circumstances I've felt I could never overcome ... only to find I can.

[Morning Dew]

40. That's true... should have said I wouldnt want to try to live on that amount again

I took me from 1979 to 1995 to get back to what I earned in '79 on a good union job. Then from '99 to '08 to get back to what I made in '99.

[varelse]

16. 24,000 would work for an single person where I live

but that person would have to live with roomates, would be forced to allocate 30-40% of his/her income to paying rent, would never own their home, and would be in deep shit if anything at all happened (car crapped out, they got hurt, job loss, forced to move and need security deposit, etc). I doubt they could afford their own health insurance, so if they didn't have access to an employer-subsidized plan, they might be SOL there as well.

In other words, it'd be enough for a young, healthy, well socialized person to scrape by here.

I managed on far less for years, but only with close cooperation with family and friends, a lot of hard work and thrift store shopping, and a good deal of dumb luck.

[Thickasabrick]

17. Thanks everyone - when private insurance is factored in - I don't

see how it is sustainable if it is more than $3,000 a year. This has been an ongoing health insurance feud and with insurance companies raising premiums yearly, it is very hard to understand how a person with that income or less would be able to afford coverage.

[TahitiNut]

18. Here ... consult the "Living Wage Calculator"

http://www.livingwage.geog.psu.edu/

Here in Royal Oak, Oakland County, Michigan, they calculate it as $9.11/hour for a single adult. Figuring 2,000 hours of paid labor/year, that's $18,220.

They also figure medical expenses of $94/month. Yeah, right. That's with expense totaling $18,940/year so they expect more than 2,000 hours of labor.

[Thickasabrick]

21. This is great! Thank you and bookmarked!! Who can get an

insurance policy for less than $100 per month? Unless they are assuming the employer had medical and this is the employee's portion.

[tammywammy]

37. It must be the person's portion only

I pay $13/week for medical/dental/vision/term life/short and long term disability.

I made it pretty easily on $12/hr as a single person.

[Greyhound]

23. Yeah, they're health care totals are ridiculously low and education is completely neglected.

That is about what I came up with, except that health care and education should be socialized, as in the civilized world.

[Blue Diadem]

46. WOW, they only figure $187 for health care for two adults in my county.

Considering our deductible alone is over $400 a month for the two of us through the employercoverage we had and before my DH was laid off he was paying over $300 for our share of the health insurance, I think that calculator is way off for health care.

Edited to add that through cobra and the assistance that Pres. Obama was able to get passed, while our deductible is still the same, I think we pay around $260 a month for Cobra now.

[Taitertots]

19. What does a living wage need to be able to afford?

In no particular order:
Health care
House
Car
Electricity
Water
Gas
Car Insurance
Home owners Insurance
Cell Phone
Internet
Saving for retirement
College
Clothes
Food


I've got something like half of those at $10 per hour. I'd need $20 to have a chance of getting anywhere. I'd say $30 per hour would be a fair baseline. If we redistributed the wealth of the ultra rich we could all make that and more.

[madville]

63. At what level do you consider someone "ultra" rich?

If you take the Forbes 400 richest Americans with a combined wealth of $1.57 trillion and divided it among all Americans that would only be about $5300 per person. Wealth distribution is not an answer to our problems, it really is amazing how little wealth "rich" people actually control by today's standards.

[Taitertots]

68. Those people are the richest 0.00013%

Also, if we took that money and gave it to the poorest 20% it would be over $25,000. It would literally put everyone in poverty out of poverty. All that just from 400 people.

So, what is that total wealth of the richest 1%?

[teranchala]

73. Any attempt to make every person/family equally 'wealthy' would fail

because if that were the forced result nobody would have any incentive to ...well, do anything productive.
And who gets to decide where the equalization line is? Talk about a can of worms...

[Taitertots]

77. I don't think everyone should be equally wealthy

Good little straw man you have built there. I'm sure your overlords and just dancing that you have adopted their memes.

It would seem doing nothing has already failed. Just look at the economic disaster our economic overlords have created to accelerate their wealth accumulation at the expense of the poor. We gave the wolf the key to the hen house.

[teranchala]

86. Sorry but anyone who resorts to 'memes' doesn't cut the cheese with me.

And don't you dare accuse me of having 'overlords'....that's just really offensive.

I hear that crap from people standing line to buy lottery tickets. "When I get rich, I'll show those bastards..."

[Taitertots]

197. Your response is...

Another logical fallacy??!!

So all you have is irrelevant straw men and irrelevant anecdotes?

I'd like to hear a decent reason from you why a tiny fraction of the population should have unmitigated wealth while millions suffer in abject poverty. How do you justify to yourself living in a world where financial oligarchs dominate every aspect of media, government, and business to the detriment of 90% of the population?

[Hannah Bell]

95. Bullshit. The top 1% take 23% of all income. The top 10% take close to 50%. The top 20%

owns 80% of all wealth.

meanwhile:

half the population works for $15/hr or less.

1/3 of retirees rely on social security for *all* their income;

2/3 rely on it for 50% or more of their retirement income.

i'd say there's plenty of room for redistribution.

[boppers]

74. WTH is a car doing in that list?

Car is a luxury.
Car Insurance (for that car) is a luxury.
Cell Phone is a luxury.
Internet is a luxury.
Retirement savings is a luxury.
College is a luxury.
Home owner's insurance? How the heck can they afford a home, let alone insurance?
Money for clothes? WHAT? Clothes are basically free, unless you want to support a fashion industry.

Jeez, it's like some people have never lived in actual poverty, and assume that all of their desired toys and luxuries are part of a "living wage". I'm surprised that "video games", "cable", and "food for pets" didn't make the list.

[Taitertots]

79. I guess "living" means living in abject poverty

If you can't afford a car, cell phone, Internet, college, and retirement then it is not a living wage.

Hell, if you can afford a shanty and some Raman then you have a living wage :sarcasm:

[boppers]

83. Living = Not dead.

Considering how much of the planet lives under 5 bucks a day, demanding a freaking car and cell phone is borderline bizarre... neither device is essential to being kept alive.

I lived on the streets, did it for 18 months, before I could build back up. To this day, whenever I meet somebody who's gone through that, and survived, I know that they have an education, sharpness, and survival instinct, much more rounded and powerful than any college could ever provide. (Maybe a triple Phd might compare, as a person kind of has to live in near-homeless poverty for 8-16 years to do that.)

Sometimes I used to wonder how many people died every day without a blanket because somebody else "needed" money to chat on their cell phone about, oh, where they were shopping. Or "needed" money to buy a designer outfit, rather than buying a few fruits and vegetables for people who hadn't had food in 4-5 days. Or "needed" money to buy their special coffee from some freaking retail chain of overpriced designer drinks, rather than buying ten cups of joe for people just trying to get out of the cold. And now people supposedly "need" a car, while the poor are still trying to beg change for the bus... to get to a hospital.

Oh, and it's usually called Ramen down here. If you can beg an egg (surprisingly, single egg begging works quite well, door to door), you can get starch and protein by cracking the egg into the water, and stirring, while it's boiling.

[teranchala]

88. Egg drop soup. You can get it at any Chinese restaurant...for 3 bucks.

:eyes:

You get it. I find it amazing so many around here do not.

[boppers]

93. LOL

Packet of Ramen: 10 cents.
Egg: Free (if begged)

For 3 bucks, I could have 30 egg drop soup meals, or... a single meal in a restaurant.

I'm really not surprised that so many folks do not "get it", and I actually view that as a bit of a good thing, in that our society has managed to reduce poverty to such a rare experience that most people don't understand it.

However, sometimes I wonder if our society might be a better place if everybody was forced into a compulsory period of poverty, where everybody had to spend a year without their personal social networks, and had to learn what real poverty actually was.

[mamaleah]

96. We grew up pretty poor, if some of what I have seen here qualifies as poor.

Big family, so not much money for extras.

We had good solid meals, but nothing fancy. Nothing certainly you would find on Food TV. Cheap staples, veggies when in season from the garden.

TV? Nope. I watched a bit at some friends homes.

1 car....and ancient station wagon. We walked most places.

And somehow, I had a happy childhood. I do not feel as though I missed out because we didn't have a huge house with a swimming pool, a big tv, and all the latest and greatest clothes.

I never thought we were poor......but somehow now you are poor without a cell phone, internet, and fresh arugula.

[boppers]

101. A bit about the arugula:

I have my own now.

It costs about a buck, for 5-10 pounds of fresh arugula, fresh spinach, and fresh lettuce.

It's amazing what a seed and a bit of dirt can do.

[Hannah Bell]

108. & where do you do your gardening?

[boppers]

111. Now? At a rental.

Before? Off in the woods.

There's lots of land out there that is unused for food, off of the beaten path.

[Hannah Bell]

117. & how did you get to the "woods" with no car, & carrying your gardening tools?

esp. those needed to break untilled ground.

did you have a burro?

& the tools, how did you buy those on your poverty budget?

or what better-off relative/friend/parent did you inherit them from?

if you tell me "goodwill/garage sale" i call bullshit.

[boppers]

135. The woods are all around where I grew up.

Freeway underpasses.
Abandoned lots.
Unkempt medians.

AKA: The woods.

As far as the "tools" go, apparently you might be laboring under the assumptions common to city-folk, where special "tools" are needed to farm/garden. (They like to imagine that a trowel, a basic scoop, should be purchased from a gardening store, along with other designer "tools".)

You only need to break up the dirt (a piece of rebar works, a brick can help for the rough stuff), and make sure it's got water, and isn't being killed by nasty runoff. If you need a scoop, the nearest garbage can will provide endless supplies of soft scoops (cut plastic bottles) and hard scoops (cut tin cans).

The tools needed to garden are not complicated, humans have been making them for over 10,000 years.

[Hannah Bell]

146. think again. i live in a rural area, used to buck hay & pick fruit, have a garden,

& participate in a lot-sized communal garden.

& i know turning unbroken ground with rebar & a brick is a long day's work if you're going to grow enough to eat.

not easy carrying your rebar & brick down to the freeway underpass isn't lighter work than carrying a *shovel* - not a trowel.

guess you're growing shade crops that like the hard pan clay fertilized with concrete dust you'll find under that underpass?

oh, & illegal as well. not that i care per se, it's just that i'd hate to put in all the rebar work only to have the police destroy the garden.

highway medians - even more visible to police. yeah, i'd like to see how long you'd last out tilling the 1-5 medians.

woods? unless you're going to cut timber, you're not going to grow much but berries. but tilling new-cut woodland with rebar - ain't happening.

empty lot - better, but most have owners & no guarantee you'll be the one doing the harvesting.

your gardening story sounds like your washrag bath story.

[boppers]

151. Grow shade crops in the shade...

Uhm, maybe I'm missing what you're saying.

Yes, the folks without specific tools may have it harder, but that doesn't mean that those tools are required, or that modern analogous tools don't work.

A hoe is not exactly high-tech.

[Hannah Bell]

153. what shade crops do you recommend? since you're so experienced.

[boppers]

158. Shade food? Okay.

Cabbage, lettuce, pretty much any low green, anything that can grow under a canopy.

They often grow better under direct light, but sub-canopy crops that feed people, vs. people that die, is a pretty clear trade-off.

[Hannah Bell]

165. a freeway isn't a "canopy". a canopy admits overhead light. its

shade is the mottled shade from taller plants.

I want to see your freeway underpass cabbages. weeds will hardly grow.

[Hannah Bell]

102. nice straw.

[mamaleah]

154. What is considered poor today is not what was considered poor a generation ago

There wasn't the perceived need to have everything your neighbors had (or that you imagined they had). What did we need? We needed to make sure we had food, utilities, and rent paid.

If you think people need extras to live and enjoy life, you are as bad as the capitalists you seem to dislike.

[Hannah Bell]

166. of course there was the perceived need to have what your neighbors had.

if you think there wasn't, it's only because you 1) weren't alive, or 2) are romanticizing your past, or 3) don't remember well.

what is considered poor today in the US is exactly what was considered poor a generation ago (about 20 years is a generation, btw): not having enough income to maintain or have hopes of maintaining a middle-class lifestyle.

The most important signs of which today = a decent-looking dependable car, a decently maintained house in a non-druggie neighborhood, health care, retirement savings, a college fund for the kids, & the ability to participate in reciprocal exchanges with one's peers in the neighborhood, family & workplace: such as contributing to a coworker's baby gift at work, etc.

Having a TV doesn't make one "not poor".

[Hannah Bell]

103. 10 cents - 10 years ago.

[boppers]

112. Still 10 cents here, but gotta watch for bulk sales.

It a bit of an art, cheap food requires work.

[Hannah Bell]

125. bullshit. maybe once a year. yes, i go to grocery stores too. then when you find your big sale,

how do you get your pallet of ramen home, since you're walking?

[boppers]

140. LOL, you really have no idea of the last ten thousand years.

How on earth could the Egyptians have built the pyramids without cranes and trucks!

Without cars, there's no way to have built anything, or haul anything!

/facepalm

[Hannah Bell]

159. they built the pyramids with forced corvee labor, backbreaking & pointless work,

as is gardening in quantity with a piece of rebar.

the quantity & quality of the food you'd produce - especially under a freeway underpass - wouldn't reproduce the calories expended.

[boppers]

161. Perhaps you'd like to be a boss to direct maximum production.

Wouldn't want labor to go to waste.

[Hannah Bell]

163. no, i wouldn't want people to kill themselves with overwork to build

a monument to pharonic ego, or to garden under a freeway overpass with a piece of rebar when decent land & tools are readily available.

[Hannah Bell]

98. why should people live on the streets in the richest economy in the world, & why do you castigate

posters for setting "living wage" at a level that allows one to participate in mainstream american life?

sorry, but a wage that only allows one to buy ramen & sleep on the streets ain't a living wage, nor should we ever call it a living wage - unless you wish to give capital ideological cover for its ongoing campaign to drive wages & benefits to third world levels.

i'm sure you don't want to do that - do you?

[boppers]

144. I think we need multiple terms.

Living wage: Bare survival.
Pop wage: The above, but enough money to buy corporate toys like TV and cable.
Corporate wage: Both of the above, but you can also buy toys like cars and computers.
Owner wage: People who own houses, businesses, and other forms of capital. The bosses.

Interestingly enough, a great many Americans stopped being workers, and became bosses, without knowing it. They aggregated capital, and started using it.

[Hannah Bell]

150. in your "non-corporate" lifestyle, you never deign to step inside someone

else's corporate automobile?

oh, why do i so seriously doubt that?

possibly because i lived without a car for 35 years & know the drill.

interestingly, most americans are workers, & the percent of independent business owners has been shrinking every year since they started tracking the number.

interestingly, the top 1% owns 40% of US wealth (real estate, businesses, stocks, bonds, bank deposits) & the top 20% owns 80%.

interestingly, 80% of the population basically owns nothing & would be on the street if they were unemployed for more than a year.

[boppers]

155. "interestingly", I don't get your point.

I step inside autos all the time.

Yes, the rich own the country. Got anything new to say?

[BOG PERSON]

136. Great post!

If I could K&R a post, it would be the one you just made. :applause:

[Obama2012]

87. Where I live, if you don't have a car, you don't get to work.

And, if you have a mortgage, you have to have home owner's insurance.

[boppers]

91. You live in a place without feet?

Oh, and we're talking about the people trying to live (Living Wage), to survive, not the people who are so freaking rich they can afford a mortgage.

Maybe you should "count your blessings", as they say.

[Hannah Bell]

99. why don't you give your bootstraps lecture to someone like bill gates?

i'm sure folks like him could benefit more from a stint in the school of hard knocks than posters at DU.

[boppers]

110. Oh, I'd love to chat with Bill.

He almost singlehandedly fucked civilization for 50 years.

WRT to posters at DU, perhaps you should take a gander at this thread.

Even better, maybe before you make a snarky comment (bootstraps? really?) loaded with insinuations, you could step away from the keyboard, help someone in need, and come back.

[Hannah Bell]

132. you're the one telling everyone a living wage = ramen & a bed on the sidewalk.

snark is what you deserve.

[boppers]

141. I think people should be kept alive.

I'm not about to suggest that "keep alive" should mean "subsidize the auto industry" (as has been suggested in this thread) or "subsidize the cell phone industry" (as has been suggested in this thread).

Go ahead, and let folks shill for whatever corporate entity they want, I don't care. I'm about saving lives, not selling cars and cell phone plans.

Call me an idealist.

[Taitertots]

198. An idealist?

What an ideal for America.

A ramen in every pot and a bum on every corner.

[BOG PERSON]

Hahahahaha!!

:rofl:

[Obama2012]

191. Where I live, whether you own a house or rent, there are no workplaces within walking distance

And not anything within biking distance really.

So a car is a necessity of life. Not everybody is so blessed to live in a city with good public transportation.

[eridani]

104. A car is a luxury only in urbanized areas.

No quarrel with the rest of the list, though.

[boppers]

115. Well, children are still running 10-15 miles a day to go to school.

I suppose it depends on one's definition of "urban".

20-40 miles might be a tad harder.

..and then there's folks who whine about a one-mile walk.

[Hannah Bell]

129. where is this that children run 10-15 miles to school? even if you run a 4 minute mile,

that's 40-60 minutes one-way, 2 hours/day running.

i think you're full of it. ditto your nyc woman "rocking it" with washrags & your 10 cent ramen.

that works, for awhile, when you're young & don't have a lot of responsibilities. i don't know anyone who kept living like that once they got a "real" job or had kids.

too stinky, too much time, too much energy, too little nutrition.

oh, & ps, ramen = noodles, grease, & boullion. it's actually cheaper to buy those things in bulk & make your own.

or you could just buy flour, grease & boullion & make a smoothie. even cheaper, & just as poorly nutritious.

since you're giving budget tips.

[boppers]

139. Where are these children? Africa.

There's some serious athletes coming out of there for a reason. They run. A lot. Freaking amazing.

For your information, my friend in NYC is a 50+ woman who does free drug/alcohol counseling for the homeless. No kids, she never could afford to have them. She never had the luxury of choosing a life of kids and responsibilities. I'm amused that you think all people have that kind of choice.

So, you can take your pious complaints about the "stinky" back into your limo with you, as you sneer at those who didn't get your lot in life.

Oh, and flour, grease, egg, and bullion noodle-making is far more cost intensive when not done on scale. Since you're totally lost when it comes to how it works when living in actual poverty.

[Hannah Bell]

162. no, african kids don't routinely run 10 -15 miles to school.

you have no idea what my lot in life is.

but i know you're about 20 years old & most of the things you talk about you've never done seriously out of need.

i know you've never gardened under an underpass with a piece of rebar, i know you've never gone for a month without access to a car, & i know you've never taken washrag baths for a year while holding down a white collar job.

[mamaleah]

85. When did a cell phone become part of basic living?

Really?

This is where people get lost in the living wage discussion.

Cell phones are not a necessity...they are a luxury item. Like cable tv or internet.

Amazing how so many of us grew up without the luxuries of our day and managed to not feel deprived.

[Hannah Bell]

100. a phone is a necessity to participate in normal life. employer contact if you're

looking for work, for starters.

[boppers]

116. phone != cell phone

You realize they're not the same thing, right?

[Hannah Bell]

130. you realize if you don't have a stable living space you don't have

a land line, right?

mr. tough guy "living on the streets".

[boppers]

137. Oh, that's a definite advantage to cell, roaming.

Once you get a place, though, it helps to cut the cell down (depending on cost).

[Greyhound]

20. Assuming the standard for a living wage as a base standard, that is as compared

to a survival/subsistence wage, I think the following criteria must be met.

Food, clothing, shelter, utilities, transportation, health care and education. The amount would have to vary by region.

Health care and education should be completely socialized since they are both essential and unique to each individual.

I believe that the current range would be ~$9.00 - $35.00 p/hour.

[rd_kent]

24. It is a subjective amount.

Too often, people have a "living wage" and then outgrow it by having children, buying homes, cars, etc. Personal decisions have a huge impact on personal finances, and usually are not taken into account, especially when having kids.

[BlooInBloo]

26. Around 25k.

[Odin2005]

27. According to the Living Wage Calculator here in Fargo it is $7.46

[bkkyosemite]

28. $40,000 at least cuz insurance is expensive.......

[cali]

39. It depends where you are. Around here, a single person can live

quite comfortably on $20,000 a year- and yes, that includes health insurance.

[bkkyosemite]

47. Wow where do you live if I may ask! I'm on a fixed income and it's pretty hard here.

[cali]

50. well, that's the trade off. I live in Vermont.

great people, good political environment, long winter- particularly where I live in the Northeast Kingdom.

[bkkyosemite]

52. Eww pretty place. A little cold but beautiful. I thought it would be expensive there but does not

sound like it. My wish has always been to see Fall in Vermont. The pictures of the turning of the leaves are gorgeous.

[cali]

55. well, heat and food aren't cheap

but where I live rents are reasonable. Vermont has really good health insurance available through the state- Catamount Health and VHAP. Many people heat by wood as I do. I live quite well on about $30,000 a year. I could do it on less.

[Hannah Bell]

109. median income, vermont, 2005: $71K, among the highest in the union.

it's probably easy to live cheap there if you inherit paid-off land & housing.

or are a trust-funder.

like many posters here.

[conflictgirl]

133. I support a family of five on $45K a year. No trust funder here.

I am honestly shocked by some of the things here saying that as much as $50K would be necessary for a single person to make it. We're supporting a family of five (two adults, three kids) on $45K a year - things were much better, but we've faced some pretty significant economic downturns. Honestly it's not always comfortable but we volunteer as a family to help people who are truly poor and understand that people have it much worse off than us. I am proud to say that my kids are much less spoiled and demanding of the newest and most expensive toys and electronic gadgets than many of their friends and peers whose parents make double or triple the income we do.

[Hannah Bell]

143. the *one* person who mentioned a number around $50K, you mean?

otherwise, most people were listing numbers from $12-30K.

One person, to function "normally" in american society, minimally, needs:

1. a studio apartment in a non-druggie zone
2. a car, unless in a area with good transit or unless one lives within walking distance of work/shopping. if you live in the convenient (non-car) location, you'll pay more for the privilege.
3. a phone
4. running water, including bath or shower
5. power
6. some kind of cooking & food refrigeration, even if only a hot plate & mini-fridge.

That minimum, + food, will run you ~$1000 ($12K/yr) in a low-rent area, & more in a place like nyc.


otoh, if you add another one, two, three, four people, costs don't double, triple, quadruple or quintuple.

[cali]

171. uh, hannah dear, 4 people in a studio apt?

costs may not double or triple, but they escalate sharply. and your moron attack on me upthread was totally gratuitious. You don't even disagree that it's quite possible to live a decent life on $25,000 a year in some parts of the country.

[Hannah Bell]

175. i didn't say 4 people in a studio, cali dear.

[cali]

173. you're pulling crap out of your dark and stinking orifice again.

The median household income from 2002-2004 was $45,692. This was 15th nationally.<53>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont#Personal_income
You wouldn 't know a fact if it kicked you in your ass. You are nothing and I mean nothing but a crude vehicle for the most crude and stupid propaganda.

Oh, and Hannah, Where I live, the NEK, is a hardscrabble place.

The median income for a household in the town was $33,636, and the median income for a family was $39,278. Males had a median income of $27,188 versus $21,732 for females. The per capita income for the town was $14,813. About 10.5% of families and 14.0% of the population were below the poverty line, including 16.3% of those under age 18 and 14.2% of those age 65 or over.

Pathetic, Hannah. But then your posts invariably are.

[Hannah Bell]

176. for 4-person families, cali dear.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/4person.html

& 15th out of 50 = top 30%.

[cali]

177. lol. you're imitating me, honey.

not an original impulse in your head.

[Hannah Bell]

179. no, mimicking you darling.

[elocs]

30. OK, you said "single" person and it does depend upon where you live.

Here in western WI on the Mississippi River at my last full time job I was making under $12, under $24,000 a year, and the job had health insurance. I took home maybe about $340 a week and I must admit that I lived quite comfortably on that amount, but then I knew how to live within my means. So for this single person that was a living wage.

Currently I am making less than $1000 a month (no other income coming in) and I am still living quite nicely. I have a nice place to live, all the food I need, and money enough to pay my bills. I have a car that is only 2 1/2 years old and some credit card debt, but not a lot and I pay about 3X the minimum payment each month and my credit score is 723.

At 57 and I've decided that I don't intend to work any more than I need to work than is necessary to pay my bills, which are few. My guess is that most people on their deathbeds would say, "Gee, I wish I had spent more time at work". I would never claim that every single person could live on what I do or be satisfied with it, but it works for me.

[TahitiNut]

32. Living Wage Calculation for La Crosse County, Wisconsin: $16,592 (single adult)

http://www.livingwage.geog.psu.edu/counties/55063

[elocs]

35. Yeah, that probably is about right. It can be done here.

This is also a beautiful place to live, unless you absolutely hate winter.

[exboyfil]

44. Your calculator shows $17K for my area

The estimator seems to leave out a whole bunch that I would consider should be included. $91/mo for medical is a nonstarter unless you have health insurance in some form - this is only about 6 doctor visits a year with medication. The taxes seem low even on $17,206, but if it is the case then you are paying 34% in taxes on the remaining $7K. Unless you have a roommate $489/mo for rent and utilities seems low as well.

Thanks for sharing the calculator. It definitely shows we need to take steps to increase salaries for everyone.

[Raineyb]

97. I think something is not right with that calculator

It has NYC Queens county at $24,662 which not for nothing is bloody ridiculous. Medical at $76 bucks? No way that's happening. And their estimates on child care don't seem within the realm of reality if my sister's child care costs are any indication.

[bkkyosemite]

49. On a $1,000 a month that is amazing!

[Hannah Bell]

106. did you buy the late model car & nice place on $1000/mo? or were they

purchased on income/savings from your previous life?

because otherwise i don't believe you.

[HopeHoops]

31. That ENTIRELY depends on where you live.

It isn't just direct costs, but lifestyle consequences.

For example, having kept two residences - one near Harrisburg, PA and another in Reston, VA, I know very well how much more fucking expensive Reston is - and I mean EVERYTHING! I had twice as much space in PA as in VA and paid twice as much overall for the place in VA - four times net per sq. ft. The same chain restaurants had much higher prices in VA than they did in PA. So from a raw cost perspective, it was definitely more expensive.

But there's a hidden cost. In PA, I can get around at any time of day, including rush hour, without waiting in traffic. I know every back road and can get from place to place quickly. Curiously, right smack through downtown and past the capital building is ALWAYS the fastest way to cross the city. In VA, it could take me 2 hours to go five miles - and there are no "back roads" - ALL of the routes are jammed at rush hour.

Lunch is just as bad. I couldn't even run home for a warm meal. Solution? Eat out! Sure, I packed lunch, brought leftovers, or brought in frozen meals sometimes, but you just have to get out of the office to keep your sanity. And I never ate the frozen meals when I went home for lunch, which I only did when my lunch break was delayed by enough to hit a lull in the traffic. A can of soup was good for two meals at the condo. Eating out was a $10 hit every day. Work late? Two hour trip home? Solution: THAT's when I had the frozen meals at the condo.

I don't waste time in traffic in PA and rarely eat out - pretty much never alone. I'll take my wife or wife and kids out once in a while, but mostly we eat at home. I've got a wonderful farmers market and save a lot by shopping there.

And how about this: what the fuck is your TIME worth? I have left the house in PA, hit a Target, Best Buy, Office Max, PetSmart, Lowes, and a FAMILY-OWNED grocery store and been back home inside of two hours. There is no way in HELL you could do that in Reston or anywhere near it.

For a single person paying $600 for a nice apartment (about what a 2 br goes for in PA), that's $7,200 in rent for the year. If you use the 1/3 of income rule, that would put living wage at about $21,600/yr. Certainly that would be a struggle, but around here it is possible. There's no way in hell that would even come CLOSE to a living wage in Reston. Salaries may SOUND high in some areas, but that noise is money flowing out of your pocket - and don't forget the time - you can't get that back.

I'll be staying here near Harrisburg. I'm making just as much here as I would if I were in Reston (I work out of my home) so my income (and time) have far greater value here.

[mdmc]

33. In the lower Hudson Valley = $21.25 per hour..

I exist in the lower Hudson Valley earning $25k per year. My big expenses are health related. I do have internet, but the other middle class pleasures are beyond my reach.

It is all in the art of budgeting and enjoying a simple life without a focus on consumerism.

[mdmc]

34. the unibomber was able to live on $400 per year, more or less

so it really depends on what you want out of life.

[Thickasabrick]

42. Wow, I did not know that nt

[Freddie Stubbs]

75. Are you suggesting that that anything more that that are WANTS rather than NEEDS?

:shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

113. First he had to buy the land & building materials for his cabin.

That was 1971.

Try to find land where you can put up a non-code cabin + outhouse these days.

[mamaleah]

36. it depends not only on where you live, but what you call living. It is different than it was

generations ago.

Our parents and grandparents were happy with food on the table and a roof over their heads. Nowadays most people do not consider themselves to be living even decently unless they have digital cable, internet, cell phones, etc.

Where you live is the biggest factor. It even varies state by state. L.A. is certainly more expensive than say....Modesto.

[exboyfil]

38. I agree if the individual is paying the full carrying cost of the health

insurance (probably $4-6K for an individual) it would be difficult. You also have to take the 7.65% for S.S./Medicare, Federal, and State taxes. Then it becomes a matter on what else has to be spent (hope you have mass transit in your area - the cost for having an auto are very high - even a clunker). You need a room mate/spouse who is also working for $24K to really make it.

I lived on what would have been in real terms about $10,000/yr in 2009 when I first came out of college (subtracting the amount I was saving for a car and what I paid in taxes over and above S.S./Medicare - my Health Care insurance was provided). I went that way for 8 months, and I probably could have kept it up for awhile longer. I walked to work, lived in a very cheap apartment, and ate very inexpensively. If I was to do so again on $24K/yr (which is about $10/hr assuming 40 hrs x 50 weeks), this would be my budget. No more car for sure.

24000 Salary
-1400 Federal Income Tax
-850 State Income Tax
-1836 SS/Medicare Taxes
-6000 Health Insurance
-1200 Health Care
-4800 Rent($400/mo)
-2555 Food($7/day)
-1095 Misc Goods ($3/day)
-365 Clothes ($1/day)
-1800 Utilities ($150/mo)
-600 Mass Transit ($50*12)
-520 Clothes Washing ($10/wk)
979 Entertainment/Savings

Tight but I could probably save something off rent with a roommate. I would hit one of the all you can eat places every other day at about $6/visit and eat real light the rest of the time. I would not have a computer/internet access, but use the local library or University.

If you need a car then you can't make it on $24K/yr with $6K going out for Health Insurance after factoring in payments/gas/insurance.

[Thickasabrick]

41. Thank you! I am going to copy this and send to my son who is

currently unemployed, but this will really help him with his expenses and budgeting when he does find something. I am so hopeful he will find a job with insurance.

[exboyfil]

65. Wish him the best

Things are going better here in Iowa than other states. We have Help Wanted signs up in several places, and healthcare especially is hiring. Our big employer recently did a big salary buy out and got far more folks than they planned on so I suspect to see some additional hiring.

I think often about the future of my children. My oldest is in 8th grade and my youngest is going into 6th grade. Both are very smart and hard workers academically. They have both been studying math this summer, and my oldest is studying 9th grade science which she is accelerating into next year. I am hoping to hold things together at least until they hit college. Both are thinking medical careers right now (possibly vet).

[HughBeaumont]

43. I live in Ohio, not exactly an expensive state.

24 grand a year would get you a 1B apartment and all accessories (food, utilities, clothing, etc) AT BEST in most parts of the state. Homes? Forget it. You'd need at least 45-55k with very minimal bills (paid off car, low mortgage, no credit card debt or student loan of any kind, etc) to pull that off.

[stray cat]

45. Depends completely on where you live

24,000 is a living wage even in NYC - it just means you probably will need a room-mate to share housing costs. You won't be homeless or starve on 24,000.

[LostInAnomie]

51. 10% more than you need to survive.

After you have spent money on clothes, food, housing, transportation, medical needs, and utilities, a living wage should allow you to put money back to cover emergencies or save for the future.

[Yavin4]

53. In NYC, Anything Below $45K Is Poverty Level Here

You would need some sort of additional assistance to rent a decent place to live, like a subsidy or roommates.

From $45K to $70K, and you can survive but you have to watch your expenses like a hawk.

About $70K and you're okay.

The wage floor for an experienced, educated, and highly skilled professional is about $75K.

[TahitiNut]

54. Living Wage Calculation for New York City, New York County, New York: $24,662 (single adult)

http://www.livingwage.geog.psu.edu/places/3606151000

[Yavin4]

57. $24K?! That Is Laughable

There's no way, no how anyone could live on that little bit of money.

[smalll]

64. Yeah, but that statistic includes non-white schlubs who don't eat arugula, ceviche or even sushi --

they're pretty much subhuman. They can get by on anything. :shrug:

[boppers]

76. Let them eat cake!

I know folks making 18K a year while living on Manhattan, without room-mates.

Of course, they don't get to participate in snobby rich-folk activities, like buying retail coffee, or retail clothes, but they get by.

[Yavin4]

82. Anyone Living on $18K in Manhattan Must Have Some Crazy Rent Control

My rent is extremely cheap for NYC because I have roommates, and my lifestyle is bare bones. I'm on UE, getting $430 a week, which is about $20K annually. Food alone is killing me.

[boppers]

89. Here's what I picked up while staying there:

1. 320 sq. ft., space costs a *LOT*, so her bedroom, living room, dining room, are all the same thing.
2. She knows the corner bodega guy, and gets the tossed food.
3. Nothing is ever plugged in, unless needed. No microwave clock bleeding pennies, no night lights, etc.
4. Since she lives in a building, she shares her internet access costs with multiple people paying for one link (with WiFi to everyone in range)
5. Below-ground (basement) space, which cuts down on utilities costs.
6. No baths, no showers. She rocks it 20's style, with washcloths.
7. She learned to cook with raw materials, without spending a lot on energy. Soaking starches, for example, cuts down on boiling time.

If you can get good rent, the next nuts to crack are food and utilities, which are about finding discards, or shared expenses, or alternatives.

[Hannah Bell]

124. oh, it's mr. homeless guy, dispensing his hairy-chested wisdom on cheap living.

she "rocks it" with washclothes?

you must be about 20.

[boppers]

145. I'm 37.

She's 50+.

Your age estimate calibrator is broken.

[Hannah Bell]

167. i wasn't talking about her. you're 37 & romanticizing gardening with rebar

under freeways as a viable money-saving strategy?

jesus christ.

[Raineyb]

184. "Rocking it" with washcloths is not a proper bathroom facility

and no one should be forced to live that way. Bodegas are notorious for not having the best quality produce if they even have produce and very few do.

Getting good rent only happens if you have really, really good connections which is not reasonable to expect everyone to have. Below ground living more often than not occur in illegal apartments and a living wage should do better than this style of living. Period.

[Yavin4]

195. Exactly

People should use their energies to ensure that they can make a liveable wage, not living like animals.

BTW, poor personal hygiene kills any chance you may have for any job.

[Hannah Bell]

178. you should be taking spit baths with a washcloth & growing cabbages

under the freeway.

plus eating 6 packets of ramen/day.

[Hannah Bell]

123. a living wage = enough to buy 10 cent ramen & sleep in the street, don't you know?

anything more is pure luxury.

[deaniac21]

56. Really don't mind if I sit this one out.

[JerseygirlCT]

59. Depends on where that person lives. nt

[Still Sensible]

60. Probably something like $32k in the middle of the

country, but on the coasts and other expensive areas more like $48k.

[abumbyanyothername]

61. Not sure about money wise but . . . .

1) A room in a college dormitory style rooming house (with shared bathroom/showers).
2) 2500 calories/day, fresh fruits and vegetables.
3) Access to necessary healthcare.
4) An all access/unlimited ride bus pass.
5) Access to the public library.
6) Access to education for so long as said person desires it.
7) Access to open, natural, spaces.

[boppers]

94. Who needs 2500 calories a day?

That's just insane.

It makes sense for a farm worker, but for an urban office person? That makes no sense.

[LeftyMom]

118. Anything below 2,000 calories a day is dieting for most adults.

I just ran the numbers, just to maintain weight an inactive 6', 210 lb male in his 50's (I used my Dad's height/weight numbers for an example of a fairly typical adult male) with a sedentary job would need 2,211 calories a day. My numbers come out lower, at about 1800 calories a day, but I'm barely over five feet tall, and size matters (and my job isn't sedentary, and I'm active- factor that in and my numbers to maintain weight top 2400 calories a day.)

Throw in physical activity, including all this walking or bike riding people are talking about since apparently having a car is a luxury now, and those numbers go up quite a bit. So budgeting for 2500 calories a day isn't "insane" at all, for an active person who isn't extremely small or looking to lose weight it's probably inadequate.

[boppers]

142. Why is a 6' male 210 lbs?

*sigh*

People wonder why being unhealthy is the US is normal, when they look all around, and feel "normal".

I'm 5'7", and have been living on 6-1,200 calories a day for the last ten years. I'm 135 lbs. I exercise for one to two hours a day, not eight to ten (as a farm worker would).

[LeftyMom]

164. Because he's pretty muscular for an old guy?

200 was a bit trimmer on him, but he's nearly sixty and barely has time to do anything active because of his work schedule, I won't begrudge him a few extra pounds around the middle. He's hardly fat. Which shows the problem with assuming fitness based on height and weight alone, they vary *a lot* based on a person's build.

Diets under 1,000 calories a day should only be undertaken for grave medical need under doctor's supervision. If you're routinely eating 600-1200 calories a day AND are active and maintaining your current weight than you must subsist on some other energy source (perhaps you photosynthesize?) because maintaining basal metabolism alone requires more than that for a person of your size. One could conclude that either you're mistaken about your caloric intake (most likely,) that you're anorexic or otherwise suffering from inadequate intake, or that you're simply bsing. But you definitely haven't been subsisting on an average of 900 calories a day for a decade while maintaining a moderate level of physical activity, doing so would land you in a hospital in short order.

[Hannah Bell]

172. i'm 5'7", a woman, weigh 5# less than you, & eat 1500-1900/day.

i'm also a dietitian, & doubt you, if 37-y/o male (or even female), maintain 135# on six to 1200 calories/d while "exercising" two hours/d. it wouldn't even cover your basal metabolic needs.

also i doubt you can maintain your freeway underpass rebar garden well if your total daily exercise = 2 hours.

& one pack of top ramen = about 200 calories.

you're telling me you live on 6 packets per day, two per meal. & you're 37.

like your 50-year old friend holds a professional job & only takes spit baths with a wash cloth every day.

like your freeway underpass cabbage crop.

[BOG PERSON]

189. I think the fact that simple physical activity is a form of leisure for us

(unlike for the farm worker) indicates just how decadent our "lifestyle" is.

[Tim01]

66. The calculator says 18k. That seems about right for here. nt

[many a good man]

67. Prevailing min wage would be liveable...IF health care was covered by single payer

Access to adequate food, shelter, clothing...and Health Care are necessary for a dignified human existence. In the USA, the richest country on the planet, we do pretty good on most of these except health care. More generous unemployment insurance is needed to help the homeless problem and hunger. We have a long way to go on health insurance.

[JanMichael]

69. For me in Florida in 2001 I'd say around $24,000 year.

Which is what I made in an entry level government job. It included very good health-care at $0/month; rent of $410/m (studio in decently safe area with utilities of around $80/m); but no pension benefit. There was also no state income tax so in a state where that exists tack on around 3k for $28,000/year.

That's around $12.50/hr in 2001 in that particular urban area of SW Florida.

I should add that I had a 100/mile/rt commute five days a week. So at the time that was around $140 worth of gas a month with a truck that got 25mpg on the highway.

So maybe knock the hourly rate down to $11/hr without the commute.

That was in 2001-2003.

Brass tacks? $20,000/yr without dipping into poverty levels of amenities and food/entertainment in that period.

[Jkid]

70. It depends on where you live.

But if I want to raise minimum wage, it would be $20 and hour. So no matter where you live, you will not have to worry about having enough money to make rent. Because housing is the biggest expense in ANY budget.

[Initech]

71. In LA minimum wage should be like $22 / hour

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

72. Our rookie firefighters start at 27,000. It honestly depends on location and discipline.

[Nevernose]

105. And we've got firefighters that, w/ OT, make 180k+ a year and work less than 2 days/week

Sweet contract, and it's kind of hard to fault him for that. But he only works Monday and Tuesday, and when he was doing Wednesday too for OT he pulled in something like 150 thousand. Others in Vegas make more (huge scandal around here lately). The beauty is, this guy worked at the airport, McCarran, which is statistically one of the safest in North America. Other than trashc can fires caused by nervous smokers in the bathroom, he didn't do anything but play ping pong and watch cable TV and work out. He also worked construction during his five days off. Retired when he was 40 and makes more money than I ever will no matter how many degrees I get and how hard I work.

Firefighters like him are why my granddad had a pathological hatred of firefighters.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

107. How does that relate to living wage?

[Nevernose]

127. It doesn't. I wasn't responding to the OP, I was responding to you.

27k is entirely too little.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

122. So are you faulting him for the contract his Union got?

Is hating someone for the job they do even remotely logical?

[Nevernose]

126. Yes, I am hating him

And also wishing I got the same contract :). I am a proud union member and will, hopefully, die a proud union member, but in this case the local union got a little too greedy. Hating someone for getting a sweetheart deal that they didn't really earn and didn't really deserve is another matter entirely.

Hating someone for being a firefighter is a little crazy, which is why I mentioned that my grandfather was a little crazy.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

128. Sorry I missed where you mentioned that about your grandfather, my mistake.

[verdalaven]

78. Michigan

If you combine my wage with my husband's, a living wage is $30 an hour.

We could live on less and have done so in the past, but we don't have stacks of disposable income building up around the house right now, either. Currently we have a house payment and a kid we are putting through college (EXPENSIVE!) so all our money is spoken for....and that is $30 an hour. So, my opinion is $30 an hour is a true living wage in this economy; more if you have kids.

Min is $7.25 an hour in this area, too. I can't even begin to imagine trying to make it on that. Forget about putting a kid through college. Forget about a lot of things.

[Freddie Stubbs]

80. Depends on the cost of the location and what you consider a requirement for living

Is having you own house or apartment a requirement for living? Many Americans do not like to share their living space, but it is far more economical to have roommates. What about a car? Cable TV and high speed internet access?

[MrSlayer]

81. You might be able to survive on 24k but not live.

Just having a roof and enough to eat is not living.

[Kat45]

193. Bingo!

Some folks here don't quite get the concept of a living wage.

[Ilsa]

84. My brother lives and works in Las Colinas, between Dallas and Fort Worth.

I would say that $52-55,000 is minimum for a single person, no roommate, living there, and that is only if you have some credit available for emergencies. His medical bills are horrible. He is a diabetic and his meds run about $1,000 a month. His insurance pays about 75% at best. His apartment is cheap at $750 a month. The shorter leases are up to about $900. His taxes are killing him, too.

[tammywammy]

90. Funny

I live in Arlington and I made $33,500/year and live quite well, but then don't have the medical expenses. To say $52-55k for everyone is just silly based off your brother. Las Colinas is expensive, there are much more reasonable housing prices in other close communities.

[Hannah Bell]

121. $898 is considered an "affordable" rent for an efficiency (studio) apartment in arlington

for someone at 1/2 median income (which is about what your wages were). That rent = $10,777/year, or nearly 1/3 of income.

http://www.arlingtonva.us/Departments/CPHD/housing/hpp/CPHDHousingHousing_infoIncomeRent.aspx

[tammywammy]

181. We were talking about Texas, not VA

Two years ago I had an apartment that was 1 bedroom with a sunroom and it was $515/month.

[Hannah Bell]

182. my misassumption, then. i thought you lived in the dc area.

[conflictgirl]

134. Huh, we used to live there and made it pretty well on 37K with kids and $800/mo house payment

We lived in Watauga on the Tarrant county side instead. I'm surprised you said his taxes are killing him since Texas has no state income tax. I do have sympathy for your brother's health problems and wish him well. That said however, Las Colinas is not known for being a cheap part of the Metroplex. Could he see if he could get some discounts on some of his meds?

[Ilsa]

183. He's recently started working with his doc on trying to do that.

I live in Texas, too, and so yes, I know he doesn't have any state income tax. About 30% of his salary comes out in taxes and other deductions from payroll before any contributions to a 401(k).

Each of his meds has a co-pay, and one of his insulins has to be done twice a month. He also had alot of medical expenses (outpatient diagnostic test and surgery) and dental problems last year that set him back. Oddly, he works for an insurance company, but his dental has a cap on benefits and he always goes over it. His personal expense are bare-bones, so it isn't as if he's blowing it on restaurants, etc. He lives very simply. His diabetes and the resulting neuropathy, etc are wrecking his health and finances.

[BOG PERSON]

138. World GDP is about $70 trillion.

About a year ago, the world population was 6,706,993,152.

World GDP per capita turns up at ~$10K, more or less. There's your "living wage".

[Hannah Bell]

152. $833/mo - in the us, that would get you a hot-plate room in a druggie neighborhood.

in colombia (some years ago), a nice apartment with maid service.

[armyowalgreens]

169. I can get a decent single-bed apartment for about 600-700 a month...

fairly close to campus in a normal neighborhood. It wouldn't be the safest, but it would be safe.

[Hannah Bell]

180. i meant the room plus the cost of all other expenses, e.g. food. The $833/mo is the entire income,

so room, board, transport all come out of that.

in a roommate situation you could maybe get something non-druggie for $350, maybe less in a big shared house.

[oedura]

148. At least $30,000 after taxes in the "low cost' regions of the country. (nt)

...

[Jennicut]

156. In CT $24,000 would not cut it at all. That is why salaries are usually higher here

to keep up with the cost of living expenses.

[MrsBrady]

157. I lived on 36k as a single person in DFW area

in 2005 to 2007....the most I've ever made.

I barely made it.

I was able to afford a car payment. But that was is it.
I basically lived like I did when I was a working musician, except I had a car payment and an apartment in a "safer" neighborhood.
No cable, cheapest cell phone I could get, no land line, cheapest cat food, didn't go out a lot...
didn't buy paper towels, cheapest everything....
I had a TV from 1978 - seriously...turn nob and everything.
Didn't buy much clothes, didn't buy towels...still had the ones I got for high school graduation.
Brought my lunch to work almost every day, until I couldn't stand it any longer and then would go out one a month or so.


after rent, car payment and food, utilities, that was about it. I was comfortable, but was still never able to save anything more than $500 at one time.
It's tiring not being able to get ahead, even with working your butt off.

What did I do before that. I was a working musician. How did I live? I lived in the "hood" and had nothing except my guitar and equipment for almost 10 years.
Being a starving artist is exhausting.

[Hannah Bell]

168. now, if you'd taken boppers' advice, you could have supplemented your food

budget by gardening under freeways using rebar & plastic scoops, & you'd probably have had plenty of money to burn.

[LeftyMom]

170. Was that the same person laboring under the delusion that ramen noodle packets are food?

:rofl:

[Hannah Bell]

174. the same. he eats only 6 packets of ramen (1200 calories) daily to maintain his svelte 135 pounds

while nevertheless doing 2 hours of exercise/d growing cabbages under freeways using rebar for a shovel & walking to the store carrying a giant backpack.

because ramen is ten cents/pack on sale, so whenever there's a sale, he carries a case of it home in a giant backpack.

a living wage shouldn't be enough for a second-hand car. that's a corporate luxury.

supplemented with freeway underpass cabbage, ramen makes a tasty nutritious meal.

boppers wants to teach us how to be poor yet have a wonderful life.

we don't need a bath or shower; we can do spit-baths with a washcloth!

especially pleasing after coming home from the ten mile round-trip hike required to replenish the ramen supply.

[MrsBrady]

186. i ate Ramen a lot back then

I was sick all the time.

As soon as I figured out that Ramen wasn't helping my nutrition, I stopped.
But of course, that meant I had to cut back on something else at grocery time...when there was hardly anything to cut back on.

I still have that 20lbs that has never gone away. Damn Ramen.

[BOG PERSON]

185. What's the difference between a subsistence wage and a living wage?

They both effectively share the same meaning, only a "living wage" has over time been construed to mean affordable tract housing, a cell phone, a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage, etc. It's very weird.

[Kaleva]

188. Location would determine that

Nice homes can be had where I live for under 50k and I saw one listed for 27.5k. My wife and I are in the process of purchasing a two story, 4 bedroom home on 4 lots for 35k. Taxes, sewer and water rates are comparatively low so I would say a frugal, single person making 24k a year could live rather well.

[nubile newbie]

190. It depends on location...Where I live, it would be around $12-15 an hour

and that would be without owning a car. But when you don't have much to work with, you have to be prudent about the whole thing and there's public transit around here. I make do on that with two people in the house!

[SoCalDem]

194. It would depend on many things

A living wage in NYC would be far different from a living wage in Boise, Idaho.

Is that single person responsible for financially helping out an elderly relative?

Do they commute a long distance to work?

Is their car paid for?

Is their car old and creaky & a money pit?

Do they have massive school debt?

Credit card debt?

a "living wage" is a very subjective thing.

two people making an identical wage can have different philosphies about money..what's just fine for one, could be the same amount for another and yet be a poverty wage..

[Iggo]

196. About twice what I make.