George Sodini: 'Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus...Eternal life does NOT depend on works.'

[Eric J in MN]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=8255530&page=1

The Pennsylvania gunman who killed three women and injured nine others when he opened fire in a fitness center Tuesday...

"Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell," Sodini apparently wrote, before adding later, "I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them."

Does the New Testament seem to indicate that getting into Heaven doesn't depend on behavior, just faith?

[GodlessBiker]

1. This is the great Catholic/Protestant split question, I think.

[BlooInBloo]

14. Just a part of it. Bigger is the question...

of whether a relationship with gawd is straight from the person (Protestant) or mediated thru clergy (Catholic).

[SpiralHawk]

2. "Wanker. You and the rest of the Republicon Homelander Pharisees, got it all wrong"

"Overcome your fear and lay off the hate and torture crap you are spewing and doing. FREE CLUE FOR REPUBLICONS: Whatsoever you do unto the least of my brothers and sisters, you do so unto me. Anyone spouting otherwise is living out a perverted Anti-Christ thingy." - J. C.

[cdsilv]

3. In some interpretations, specifically southern baptist, yes.....

they believe that once you are saved, your are saved and going to heaven even if you massacre the entire planet.

Of course the question would then be, 'were you REALLY saved????'.

[Sebastian Doyle]

4. Jesus forgave a lot of sinners, but He also told them "Now go and sin no more"

So I'm pretty sure that mass murder would be an express ticket to Hell.

[Aristus]

5. He didn't read the Book of James.

James 2:14-16: What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man have not works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food, and one of you say unto them, "Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled", and yet not give them the things needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Read the whole thing, assholes, or stop quoting it for your murderous purposes...

The Apostle James; a great liberal, just like Jesus. B-)

[Eric J in MN]

7. Thanks, I was looking for quotes like that. NT

NT

[hedgehog]

17. I think that letter is just in the "Catholic" Bible, not the "Protestant" Bible.

[Aristus]

19. Nope. Got it right here in the Good News Bible.

n/t

[hedgehog]

27. oops, you're right, I'm wrong. I guess it's just some of the

Hebrew Scriptures that are considered non-canonical by some.

http://www.nationalbible.org/read-the-bible/difference/?from=21

[Eric J in MN]

22. It's in the King James version of the Bible.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=5318893

<11> For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
<12> So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
<13> For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
<14> What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
<15> If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
<16> And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
<17> Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
<18> Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
<19> Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
<20> But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[G_j]

30. also

I don't normally post quotes from the Bible,
this passage just seemed very appropriate. Matthew 25:34-45:

34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' 40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' 44 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' 45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'

[Eric J in MN]

33. Thanks, I was looking for quotes like that. NT

NT

[MADem]

6. The minister he spoke with takes strong exception to his interpretation of their conversation.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/yb/133838769

Very interesting article--supposedly, he had a CHILD in 1991:

His last blog entry read:

"Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge but that does not matter."

Although Sodini called religion a "waste," he wrote that the Rev. Rick Knapp, his former pastor at the nondenominational Tetelestai Church in Plum, "teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven."

"I think his (Knapp's) crap did the most damage," wrote Sodini, who included the church's phone number and Knapp's home address in the blog.

Knapp, 58, of Oakmont, was so shaken to learn of Sodini's writings that he called Oakmont police yesterday morning, said borough police Chief David DiSanti Sr.

"Rev. Knapp said he had genuine concerns for the welfare of himself and his family," DiSanti said. He and Allegheny County homicide detective Henry Siemianowski met with Knapp for about 45 minutes at the Oakmont police station, the chief said.

"He in no way, shape or form condones any type of activity like this. Like many mentally ill people, (Sodini) misconstrued what he said and took something out of context. Rev. Knapp never, ever made any inference" that a person could commit mass murder and still go to heaven, DiSanti said.

No one answered the door at Knapp's home or the church located in a large, three-story home on Pierson Run Road.

Police said Knapp recalled an incident between Sodini and a woman. Allegheny County police Superintendent Charles Moffatt said the pastor told police that Sodini aggressively pursued a woman who attended church there until the pastor had a "talk with him" to back off. . . . . .

[FarCenter]

28. Knapp was ordained by R B Thieme, Jr, the cult leader

And "The Integrity of God" is one of Thieme's writings.

http://rbthieme.org/the6.htm

[musette_sf]

38. that's some high-priced real estate Thieme's got

[MADem]

42. Well, I think they're all batshit, all I was doing is putting out the other guy's

rebuttal to the assertion.

[rug]

8. It's all Luther's fault.

[AngryAmish]

15. Wasn't it the Clenis' fault? I get so confused.

[rug]

24. No, blame Calvin for Clenis.

[AngryAmish]

25. Damn Protestants. The lot are snakehandlers.

[KatyMan]

35. yep

he adds one little word and look at all the trouble he caused.

[DevonRex]

9. Yes. But it also says that not everyone who cries "Lord, lord!" will

enter the kingdom of heaven. And it also says that we will know Christians by their works. And that a rotten tree produces a rotten fruit. And on and on.

[arbusto_baboso]

10. Oh he saw God and Jesus all right.....

Just before they cast him into Hell with all the other hypocritical fucking pseudo-christians, like Jerry Falwell and Billy Graham.

Of course, I don't believe in the existence of Hell, but if I did, it would be populated by sick fucks like Sodini.

Saved without works? This is why modern fundamentalist christianity is a rotting shell of a "religion" deserving of nothing but contempt, ridicule and scorn.

[thereismore]

11. No heaven for a blasphemer. Saying "God and Jesus" is like saying Jesus is not God

Sorry dude, you've committed the unpardonable sin.

[REP]

12. Profess belief; all sins washed whiter than white

One reason I'm not a member.

[Nyquil Man]

13. The argument I always heard is that you can only get to Heaven through Christ.

Irked the hell out of me that a decent person could burn in hell because they didn't pick the prize behind door number 1, but a murderer could say a prayer on his deathbed and get to hang out with Big JC.

[opihimoimoi]

16. maybe god refuses to grant him audience....needs appointment from mr jordan first

[gratuitous]

18. Gotta blame someone, I suppose

Mr. Sodini seemed remarkably free of self-awareness, and folks like that can find reasons, excuses and scapegoats in the unlikeliest places. The Christian Testament says a whole lot of different things, and some of the finest minds of the last two millennia have pondered, discussed and debated what's written there. That's why it's important to participate in a group that meets regularly (say, every week or so) to check in and talk about these sorts of things in a variety of different contexts. But that can be pretty dry and boring, so you might want to liven things up by singing a few songs together.

As John Hodgman would say, "You're welcome."

[Johonny]

20. Paul's letters yes; Gospel of Mathew No

the bible says both

[FarCenter]

29. The bible says both -- that is how it can be inerrant

[Bluerthanblue]

21. many religions agree that eternal life exists for all- it more a question

of whether that life will be spent in heaven, purgatory, hell or _________.

I can quote you many scriptures that would back up the idea that getting into heaven isn't based on 'our' good behaviour, but rather, the grace/mercy of God, and/or the sacrifice of Jesus.


:hi:

[Eric J in MN]

26. George Sodini believed he wouldn't go to Hell for mass murder.

"Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell"

[Bluerthanblue]

39. "maybe"- and

the bible does say that all will stand before the "Judgment Throne" which is "God" and "Jesus" (on the mercy seat). (the bible says that Jesus will be seated on the 'right hand of the father')

Not so sure he believed he wouldn't be in hell- also not so sure it mattered all that much to him, or would have changed his actions one way or the other.

It's all speculation on our parts anyhow.

:hi:

[FarCenter]

31. A belief in life after death is like believing that you computer will run after it is unplugged

and you've removed the battery, smashed the motherboard, and zapped the memory.

And once you stop believing that there is life after death, then the whole edifice of religion pretty much collapses.

Very few religions don't believe in some form of continuing existance, either a heaven/hell, some form of transcendence, or reincarnation.

[Bluerthanblue]

37. life/existence- not that big a difference. some religions take

the view that "life" will include physical bodies-(J.W's) for one- Some believe in a transformation, some believe that we are more than just flesh and blood, and that "spirit" (I call it 'essence') continues on.

The idea that we know everything there is to know in 2009 is kind of foolish (imo). It wasn't that awfully long ago (in the context of the existence of the planet "Earth", that humans believed the sun revolved around Earth, the Earth was flat.

My Grandfather was a Family Dr. during his almost 70yrs. of practice, he witnessed the discovery of x-rays, antibiotics, anesthesia, vaccines, all kinds of technologies. The year before he died at 94yrs. the very first heart transplant was attempted in S.Africa. Beyond that there are STILL forms of 'matter' being discovered, species believed extinct re-discovered, new species/galaxies/scientific principals being found or understood.... much yet to be learned and done- to think humans have reached the zenith of our ability to know and understand all there is to know is arrogant, yet. also pretty .. human.

but I'm on another of my eternal tangents-
sorry.
:hi:

[FarCenter]

43. I believe that we are making progress in discovering new things as well

In particular, the combination of neuroscience, information sciences, cybernetics, and neurophilosophy are explaining more and more about what goes on in the human mind (as well as the minds of other species).

As time goes on, there is less and less phenomena that theologians can use to justify the concept of a "spirit" or "essence" that is not explicable by information theoretic concepts operating in the electrochemical mechanisms of the brain.

The success of neuroscience and information science in explaining mental phenomena will be even more of a challenge to religion than was the biologists explanation of evolution.

[MindPilot]

41. I like that analogy! n/t

[stopbush]

23. Did anybody think that it would turn out this guy was an atheist?

Didn't think so.

Just another typical Xian whack job. One wonders why these guys who feel a need to meet Jeebus always insist on taking a few innocents along with them.

Note to the next aspiring mass murderer: next time, reverse the order and kill yourself FIRST. Then, you can kill all the others you're capable of killing.

[SidneyCarton]

32. Sorry pal, you bought a bill of goods.

Last thing I heard, the man upstairs wasn't all that big on murder.

[PlanetBev]

34. Hate to tell you, George...

If life is eternal, you take your shit with you. It's called karma, and you just created a whole lot more of it.

No hot babes or foxy chicks in your next time around, either.

[damntexdem]

36. Doesn't the Bible say that the wicked will see Jesus when he condemns them?

But "by faith alone" has long been a Xian lunacy.

[MindPilot]

40. The really ironic part is that had he not killed himself

there would be at least several ladies who would suddenly find him very desirable. There are women out there (and they are "out there") who like 'em bad, very, very bad.