?'s For People Who Fear Single Payer/Public Option (AKA, 'Govt Can't Do Anything Right')

[ihavenobias]

The whole " and Post Office" argument is BS if the goal is to argue against Single Payer/Public Option systems (having neither is why ). I could just as easily turn it around and ask 'do you like the customer service you get from (fill in the blank private business)?' How did you like that (private) customer care rep? Was he/she clear, concise, courteous and helpful? Now that you're warmed up, answer these questions:

-How much do the people in Chicago enjoy having the since the parking meters were privatized a few months ago? Note that the spots are no bigger and the streets are no nicer.

-Have you ever received cold food or the wrong order from a (private) restaurant, even after you waited (for 30 minutes, 60 minutes or more?) to be seated?

-Have you ever waited in a long grocery store line with just a few items while people ahead of you with full carts haggled over pennies and coupons? Did they squash the bread under canned goods when you checked out? Did they scan the same item twice?

I am not by any means suggesting that I want public restaurants or grocery stores, etc.. But when it comes to that we all depend on, yes, I want the government in and the profit-motive out for health insurance, because again the facts show that means (note that the "represents CEOs of major companies"). And of course the real answer to the above questions, parking costs excluded, is "sometimes".

PS---Honestly, the vast majority of the time my mail gets where it needs to be on time and at a very low cost. And I've had courteous people and short lines at the DMV in addition to the opposite...just like with any private business.

[atreides1]

1. If the government can't do anything right

Why do so many of these people trust the military? Why all the praise and adoration for those in uniform?

[ihavenobias]

2. Good qustion.

Cenk actually posed that question this morning: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/8/6/762610/-Is-the-US-Military-a-Socialist-Institution

[Bill McFarland]

4. No fear

Ok, so I'm new to the forums. I am not opposed to governtment sponsered single payer healthcare. My problem is that we have no way to RESPONSIBLY pay for it. We are trillions in debt as it is. I would support the presidents idea if he would just present a DETAILED plan to the American people on how to RESPONSIBLY pay for it.

[fascisthunter]

10. bullshit... where ever you heard that claim, it's a fucking lie!

right now we pay out the ass for healthcare and don't even get covered.

[cynatnite]

24. There is already more than one bill being debated on by both houses...

Please learn a bit more about government and how it works. It'll save you from looking like a fool in the future.

[Seldona]

28. It could be done with the same amount spent on health care now.

Perhaps it could even be done with less. No golden-parachutes to pay for and all that...

[JDPriestly]

37. It can easily be paid for if you

roll back the Bush tax cuts for the very wealthy and raise the cap on income subject to Medicare and Social Security taxes. A person earning $150,000 per year should pay the same percentage of his income for Medicare and Social Security tax as does the person earning $40,000 per year. In fact, if we got rid of that cap, we might be able to lower the Medicare Social Security tax rates.

Interestingly, many in the right-wing favor flat taxes -- but I've never heard of any of them suggesting a flat tax for Social Security and Medicare taxes. That's because the wealthy pay far less than a flat tax would require them to pay for those items.

Also, what we pay now for healthcare could adequately fund a single payer system for all Americans. Too great a portion of our health care dollars go to fund corporate profits and outrageous CEO and top management salaries at health care companies.

So, paying for health care would not be a problem if we were really willing to reform the system.

I will repeat for the umpteenth time. I lived quite a number of years in Europe, used the single payer systems (we lived on the economy as my husband was a teacher there) and loved the health care we received. It is just downright silly for Americans to insist that American health care is the best in the world. By virtually every measure out there, American health care scores pretty low -- infant mortality, life expectancy at birth. You name it. We are not getting the best health care. Our system positively stinks.

Even in so far as choice of doctor, I can vouch for the fact that, at least when I lived there (UK, France, Germany and Austria), I had a much wider selection of doctors and more freedom of choice of doctors in Europe on their single payer or public plans than here in the U.S. where you have to choose a doctor on your insurance company's plan.

Ignorance drives Americans' fear of health care reform. Ignorance.
And that ignorant fear is fueled by the right wing that bled our treasury dry during the Bush years. The very greedy elite of the Republican Party see an opportunity to get back into office and drain every last drop of our national resources out of us. That's what this is all about.

[timtom]

38. I hate to be the asshole that suggests

we get the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan, for openers.

Just a wild theory of mine (that we redirect insane military spending toward our infrastructure).

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. Unless you worried about how to pay for the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars

in combination with the Bush tax cuts then your concern is hypocritical. If you did worry about how to pay for those wars, my apologies.

[ihavenobias]

62. I wouldn't believe him/her even if he claimed to have been worried.

Overwhelmingly the right defended the Bush Admin at every step, only to criticize him AFTER it was too late and convenient.

[hay rick]

53. Single-payer costs LESS per person.

Our health care system is unique in three important ways: it relies heavily on the private sector (private health insurance), it excludes a large percentage of the population from routine care, and it is vastly more expensive than any other advanced nation. The cost per capita difference is eye-popping. One link here: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_spe_per_per-health-spending-per-person

Excerpts:
1. U. S. $4271
2. Switzerland $3857
3. Norway $3182
4. Denmark $2785
7. Germany $2697
8. France $2288
9. Japan $2243
14. Canada $1939
18. U. K. $1675

The truth about health care costs is that we are CURRENTLY paying a huge premium to avoid government involvement and to prop up private profits.

[fascisthunter]

8. because they are militant fascists

who believe in a right wing police state.

[cynatnite]

25. The best health care I ever got was when I was in the Army n/t

[Fleet]

56. Our government was founded by militants.

I for one would have much more faith in the government if military service was prerequisite to national political service. Of course, I've got all sorts of crazy ideas about what constitutes reasonable experience to act as a national leader (military service, terminal degree, business management skills, extensive travel both across the country and the globe).

[tekisui]

3. Too many of these 'government can do nothing right' people

have fallen for the conservatives' failure by design plan. Their entire gameplan was to bloat the budget, screw up every significant policy, and turn it over to private corporations to rake in big profits.

[Bill McFarland]

5. You source is......

What is your evidence on this? I came here to be educated.

[ihavenobias]

6. Here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast

&

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/26-0

[tekisui]

7. Read 'The Shock Doctrine' by Naomi Klein.

It is disaster capitalism. But, it has long been the conservative ideology to blow up the budget, prove the government to be ineffective and then prescribe cuts to the social services. Expand the military, reduce the social safety nets, and privatize as much as possible. It is really quite obvious.

[ihavenobias]

22. It's on my list, but it's a lot to ask him/her to read a book.

Although I agree his/her intentions might be questionable.

PS---An 8:35m interview with Naomi Klein by Cenk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Knv9CXZI6hc

[tekisui]

9. Do you really think most repukes are closet Democrats?

Oh, boy. Welcome to DU, and enjoy your stay.:hi:

[Greyhound]

54. On the off-chance you are telling the truth and want to know, look at what Potter has done to

ruin the USPS during his tenure as Post Master General. In typical republik fashion he has diverted billions of post office into private company coffers and blocked every attempt to make his department efficient and responsive. Massive cuts at the bottom where the work is done and unprecedented growth in benefits and income for those at the top that produce nothing.

[mzmolly]

11. I much prefer the local DMV to the customer service at our local

bank. ;)

[ihavenobias]

19. I'm sure it varies from place to place.

Part of the problem is when you go, just like with private business. If you go to the DMV on your lunch break or on Saturday (etc.), it probably won't be fun.

Just like many restaurants or grocery stores during peak hours.

[mzmolly]

27. Absolutely.

And, it depends upon where one lives. When I lived in a larger city, the DMV was always crowded. :hi:

[yellerpup]

12. The 'government' healthcare programs we've had since FDR

are more efficiently administered than any private healthcare plan. Hasn't our postal service been privatized since the 90s? Isn't that when it started going downhill?

[pleah]

13. K&R

[TheEuclideanOne]

14. I don't think that it is so much the case that people think that the government can do no right.

I think that it is very similar to the tea parties, where you had mobs of people protesting Obama raising their taxes after they received a tax cut. They were also modeling their protests after the protests over "Taxation without representation" RIGHT AFTER AN ELECTION. These people are not excercising a well thought out objection to a new healthcare policy, they are simply objecting to anything the Obama is trying to do. Geez, how many times have we seen rooms of screaming people, over 90% who are on medicare, infuriated over the concept of government run healthcare.

The reality about the DMV and post office, in my opinion, is that they are much improved over years past. I would actually like the people that whipped them into shape to run more things. Both of these institutions would take forever to do the simplest things. Today, if I want to send out a letter, things move MUCH more efficiently than they did, say 5-10 years ago. On most days, the line takes only a few minutes at most. I have found the same with the DMV. Of course, nothing is perfect and some offices I am sure are slow as mollasses, but I have actually noticed a big improvement in both.

[ihavenobias]

15. I wish I could agree with your subject line

The fact is that I've seen countless Republicans on television arguing that government is ALWAYS the problem. Hell, I've met them!

This mentality really took because of this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ixNPplo-SU

[TheEuclideanOne]

17. Yeah, but do Republicans really listen to that guy?

Kidding, of course. :)

Yes, good point, I have also seen a number of Republicans on television that do stand pretty sternly behind that position. Some of my favorite video clips are of people who start off with that argument, but then discuss a government plan that works very successfully, only to have that argument crumble in front of them. My favorite of these was the recent interview with Jon Stewart and Bill Kristol.

But yes, you are right, perhaps my subject line was not quite on the mark.

[ihavenobias]

30. The Stewart/Kristol interview was great.

It's no wonder Stewart is the 'most trusted' person in news.

[Johonny]

18. I agree

these are people that think Republicans can do no wrong and Dems can do no right. It doesn't seem to be logical constructed criticism of actual reality.

[autorank]

16. k*r Sometimes

Sometimes we deserve the truth. Like when we watch the news etc. But we rarely get it.

These are good arguments but what do we get from the networks - these manufactured protests at meetings
that people rarely attend.

Time for a real debate when issues like this can be raised.

[ihavenobias]

33. Thanks, and good article in Articles & Editorials BTW.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x469075

[Kajsa]

20. How many people who complain about

" government run" programs have Medicare?

K & R.

[20score]

21. Bravo my man! K&R

[rockymountaindem]

23. I just say I'm actually quite pleased with the post office and DMV

I mean, I drop a letter here in Boston and it gets home to Colorado in 3-4 days. Easy peasy. I've sent multiple letters to the Netherlands in less than one week. One time they seem to have lost a mothers' day card for awhile, but it did get there eventually. Even with that blemish, the USPS is working at a 99% efficiency rate in my case. Canada Post, on the other hand, took forever to get anything one way or the other when I was living up there at college.

As for the DMV, I have relied on the Colorado DMV (which I'm sure given our anti-tax crowd in CO is one of the most strapped in the country) for my learner's permit, my 16-year-old driver's license and my 21-year-old driver's license. Never had a problem with them. When I went in to get my new license after my 21st birthday, they took my old one, snapped a new photo of me and gave me a temporary document for the couple of weeks it would take for the new license to be processed. No trouble at all there, either.

So if "government health care" works as well as the USPS or DMV, I could think of worse things.

[ihavenobias]

34. True

But it's also true that a lot of people have horror stories, especially DMV horror stories. My idea was to point out that private business is just as likely to provide a bad experience and often times at a higher cost.

[GrimReefa]

60. Horror DMV stories

are like poker hands that you fold because they are crap, and then you find out you would have hit the flop. People forget every smooth experience they have the the post office or DMV because a smooth trip there is meant to be forgettable. And nobody has a good experience at the DMV - that's the nature of their business. What are they supposed to do, hire strippers? Serve jalopeno poppers? But if you have a bad experience, it sticks in your craw and doesn't vacate, and every time you think about the DMV, you think about your bad experience.

[ihavenobias]

61. Awesome

You response was true AND it cracked me up.

[MindPilot]

64. I would suspect the people who have bad experiences with the DMV

are the ones who show up and simply don't have all their prerequisites together.

[ihavenobias]

65. And or they show up during peak times. n/t

[matthewf]

26. k&r

[gmoney]

29. You forgot the draconian meter enforcement now in Chicago

Privatization has made ticketing and towing more rigorous in Chicago from all reports I've heard.

The mild upside is that parking spaces are somewhat more available because the rates are so high and enforcement is so hardass. :/

[OhioChick]

31. Kick

:kick:

[burning rain]

32. k & r

.

[Turborama]

35. Thanks, Tom. A very good argument with some great sites to back it up with.

Have you seen the stats on Nationmaster, yet? It's a really good resource for lots of comparative studies...

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_hea_car_fun_tot_per_cap-care-funding-total-per-capita


:kick: & R

[ihavenobias]

42. No, I hadn't until now.

Thanks for the link!

[earcandle]

36. Me too!

[CherylK]

39. K & R!!!

:applause:

[ChromeFoundry]

40. K&R n/t

[FiveGoodMen]

41. K&R

[Shagbark Hickory]

43. Or you could just say, I'd rather have the post office than just rely on pidgeons. nt

[ihavenobias]

47. Pigeons?

Are you a Thom Hartmann fan by any chance?

[Shagbark Hickory]

44. Or "everyone that goes into the DMV gets what they came in for". Can't say the same for the hospital

[Blue_In_AK]

45. Here's a very nice LTTE from this morning's Anchorage Daily News...

http://www.adn.com/opinion/letters/story/890534.html

I'm 83 years old. I've been in a government-run health care system for 18 years, and I love it. Together with a very reasonably priced supplemental insurance policy, I get 100 percent of my health care needs taken care of and it doesn't cost me one additional penny.

I've had a heart procedure, a colon procedure, frequent regular visits to the specialists -- cardiologist, urologist, gastroenterologist and family practice physician -- with no delays and excellent professional service. The government has never denied me any service under my plan.

As far as I can tell, there is no government insurance agent between me and my doctor -- as some recent ads would have you believe. Those who claim that a government-run health care system can't work are just blowing hot air and trying to scare a gullible public.

-- Robert Hurney

Anchorage

[ihavenobias]

48. Thanks

for the link.

[MedfordTim]

46. At this point...

...since the White House admitted it made a frickin' deal with Pharma that no negotiating on prices will be included, I'm wondering if they understand what the word "reform" means...

[ihavenobias]

50. I read something about that but I don't know if it was confirmed? n/t

[Divine Discontent]

49. nice job! k&r

[wroberts189]

52. knr

[DeeDeeNY]

55. There was no efficiency in government during the Bush years

And for the most part, it was deliberate. Putting unqualified people in high positions was good for them on so many levels. It was an extra benefit that the more incompetent they were, it just proved their point of how bad and inefficient the govt was at running anything and why they needed to "drown it in a bathtub" as Grover Norquist would say.
The government, when intelligent people are in charge, is extremely efficient. When Republicans are in charge, they can screw up very nicely.

[ihavenobias]

58. Exactly.

Republicans run on how government can't do anything right and then they prove it once in office by underfunding, defunding and outright mismanaging programs.

Then they generically blame their individual failures on The Government and make the case for privatization.

[Mudoria]

57. No doubt the government has it's problems

but I've had far more problems with privately run insurance companies than anything I've encountered from the government agencies.

[GrimReefa]

59. I went to the RMV in Falmouth, MA a few days ago

and it was fine. You took a number when you showed up, and people were called in accordance with the order in which they arrived. There were benches to sit on, and when my I got called, my issue was dealt with quickly and painlessly. There was even some question about whther the RMV would accept the form I had, as it was a faxed, rather than original, copy, but it was taken without comment.

I wouldn't say I had the time of my life, and I relaize that not everybody's experience at every DMV across this great country of ours goes as smoothly as mine went, but the fact remains that there is no reason gov't service has to be second rate.

You know, I think the real Republican distaste for the post office and DMV is because that is the only place where rich people aren't treated better than everybody else. They get to board first on planes and sit in luxorious seats, they have private skyboxes at sporting events, hell, they can even buy special passes at amusement parks so they don't have to wait to get on roller coasters. Gov't buildings are the only place where they are forced to get the same treatment as everyone else, and they resent it thoroughly.

But, of course, it's the Democrats who are elitist.

[ihavenobias]

63. That's an interesting point.

About how everyone is treated the same.