I knew the day would come - no cash allowed!

[Chemisse]

My 20-year-old son flew for the first time yesterday. We knew ahead of time that American Airlines charges for the meal they serve on the cross-country flight, so he was prepared with money to pay for it.

But they would not sell him a meal, saying this was a no-cash flight!!

He did not have a credit card and was getting rather frantic. He is a type 1 diabetic and really has to have food regularly. He told them this and they gave him a bag of chips, luckily, so all was okay.

Is it even legal to refuse to sell something to someone for cash? It is (last I knew) our legal tender.

[aquart]

1. Happens all over the place.

[BlooInBloo]

2. Yes, it's legal.

[ColesCountyDem]

33. No, it isn't, technically...

It says on the face of every US bill, "All debts public and private'... Individual vendors MAY create different policies, however.

[Sgent]

70. That only applies to debts

not to transactions.

[Expedite Trucker]

57. Legal yeah- right no

[ejpoeta]

3. that's baloney, but then again, if they make everyone pay with a card,

then they don't have to worry about having people handling the money and risking someone keeping any of it.

[Orrex]

4. And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast...

[gmoney]

5. maybe offer cash to the person in the next seat and use their card?

but that is weird.

guess it's time to get him in the system with some plastic!

[Warpy]

29. ATM cards work just fine

in situations like that.

It's pretty stupid, though.

Not accommodating a type I diabetic on a cross country flight was especially stupid of them. I can just imagine the lawsuit if something awful had happened.

[omega minimo]

52. Time to get him in the plane with some energy bars.

:thumbsup:

[Merlot]

6. Wow, big old american airlines gave up some chips

oh, boy, what a treat!

Sorry, but I have no patience for the way airlines treat people. What if it had been a long fight? would they have made him eat chips for dinner?

[Chemisse]

8. It was a 6.5 hour flight.

I suppose a bag a chips is a small price to pay to avoid a medical emergency on board. Imagine the bad publicity!

[MercutioATC]

40. For future reference, American Airlines sucks.

(and I say that from my experiences as a civilian passenger, NOT as an air traffic controller)

U.S. Air sucks, too.

[MercutioATC]

7. Here's what the U.S. Treasury has to say:

Question:

I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?

Answer:

The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.

http://www.treas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.shtml#q1

[Chemisse]

9. Ahhh, there is the final word on that - thanks. n/t

[Laelth]

12. Nice work. Thanks. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[ThirdWorldJohn]

24. But there is no federal law or mandate that staes a business or even the US Federal government is

required to accept your legal tender.

Question: I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?

Answer: The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.

http://www.trcb.com/government/government-regulations/legal-tender-5876.htm

[MercutioATC]

27. Umm...right. You just reposted what I posted with a different link.

Your link is to an article that quotes my link (which is the original source of the quote).


Am I missing something?

[Carni]

31. In addition in the air other laws apply

I am not sure which ones to cite, but when even a US based plane is in the air -- I THINK you're in a sort of no man's land legally. I don't think they have to follow some of the law's that apply when you are on the ground in the United States.

Maybe some atty's can weigh in here, because I am not one.

[MercutioATC]

32. It's federal law.

In U.S. airspace, federal law applies.

[seabeyond]

10. i have had it happen a couple times and laughed at the absurdity. nt

[Chemisse]

11. It would've been ok if we'd known ahead of time

So I guess with these new 'charge for everything' rules airlines are adopting, a little education of the public would be helpful.

[npk]

13. Yep it's legal. The merchant can decide which form of payment may be accepted

Usually it's just the opposite, where CASH only is accepted at some businesses. But a business can always declare that only credit card/debit card be used. They can deny payment by check, money order, credit card, or even cash. It is perfectly legal. For instance the GA lottery has a policy where they only accept cash, no other forms of payment (for obvious reasons of course). A lot of airlines will not take cash on the plane because it can present an easy target for a robbery. I do agree that they should have published this in advance. That would have definitely been helpful to you and your son.

[4lbs]

14. If the airline was thinking ahead, they could have simply arranged a way to add $10 to the ticket

cost and use that as remuneration for any meal needs.

So, say, people who want meals pre-paid, pay $110 to fly. Those on that flight that don't, pay $100 for the ticket.

The ticket could have been printed with a "PAID MEAL" phrase to denote those that pre-paid for a meal.

[Chemisse]

17. Good idea

Then they would have an idea how many meals to prepare also.

[4lbs]

30. I remember when I did a lot of cross-country business travel in the 1990s, all meals were included

in the price of the ticket, for the longer flights.

In addition, they asked us what type of meal we preferred from 3 choices (usually something like fish, chicken, or vegetarian).

[Arctic Dave]

15. Alaska Airlines has been doing this for some time now.

I laughed my butt off when I first heard it. I told the flight attendent, So much for the saying "cash is king".

[slackmaster]

16. "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE"

:nuke:

[ThomCat]

20. Except, as discussed above, it's not.

:shrug:

[glitch]

35. anymore.

insert something about the erosion of our basic rights and protections here.

[MercutioATC]

39. Since 1965.

Possibly earlier, but that's when the pertinent statute was codified.

[glitch]

45. Thank you for pointing out that our rights have been intentionally eroded for quite some time.

Usually I have to make that point.

[MercutioATC]

47. If that's the way you choose to view it, you're welcome.

I'm just stating that this has been the law for quite a while.


I'd also take issue with your view of what constitutes "rights". It seems to me that having the right to refuse a specific payment medium is less restrictive than being forced to accept one...especially when we're talking about a fiat currency.

[glitch]

51. Having a standard currency is a fairly common sign of fairness in a civil society.

It's a freedom thing, an attempt (feeble as it is) to limit exclusion.

[MercutioATC]

54. "Fairness"? I disagree.

The purpose of a standard currency is to facilitate trade.

Nothing more, nothing less.

[Demobrat]

18. I tried to pay cash for a $10 tee-shirt

at a large national clothing retailer. I was told I couldn't pay cash because "the register that takes cash is broken". I had already waited in line so I paid with a card, but sheesh. It used to be you had to ask if a place took credit cards. Now you have to ask if they take cash.

[glitch]

19. People bring their own food on board now, apparently for a better reason than airplane food sucks

and is overpriced. Nauseating sitting next to someone with a happy meal, but definitely something someone with type 1 diabetes could use to their advantage.

Plus it's a way to NOT support those who don't take cash. All things considered, bringing your own food is a net positive IMO.

[Chemisse]

23. That's what I suggested to him

Even picking something up to eat on board after going through security - that's what I usually do. But whatever I suggest is - by default - stupid.

[glitch]

25. Well, maybe now he won't be so sure that your suggestion is so "stupid"

Vendors who don't take cash lose my business, I'd like to see that catch on. :)

[Jennicut]

44. Carrying snacks for a diabetic can become a habit

but it takes practice and planning. Sometimes I even forget if I am in a rush.

[ThirdWorldJohn]

21. I would have offered to put his meal on my CC and taken his money or he could

Mail me the charges later. People do not seem to want to help people any more. Or they do not trust.

[liberal N proud]

22. I probably would have just picked up the tab

Its only a meal.

Damn expensive microwaved sandwich but none the less, he needed something to eat. A bag of chips, how generous.

[demigoddess]

53. If he had been sitting next to me I would have said "put it on my tab"

"because I am older and I have more credit" Sometimes being an old dame is not so bad. We need more of it.

[Expedite Trucker]

26. This note is valid for all debts public and private-gone by the wayside

[MercutioATC]

28. Not "gone by the wayside"...many people just seem to misinterpret the phrase.

It's a statement that the currency is a valid, federally-guaranteed medium of exchange...not that it must be universally accepted.

[glitch]

34. Yes, "valid for all debts public and private" is so very ambiguous. nt

:crazy:

[MercutioATC]

37. I think you're missing the point.

A dollar bill is just a piece of inked paper without the statement that it's recognized as "valid for all debts public and private" by a guaranteeing agent.

That doesn't constitute a requirement that it be universally accepted.

[glitch]

55. Likewise, sadly. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

62. Well if you want to read it literally...

it says debts. Buying some in-flight crap isn't repaying a debt, it's making an exchange.

[RB TexLa]

36. It is 2009. There is no reason for cash anymore.

[MercutioATC]

38. There are plenty of reasons for cash.

The point is that there's no legal requirement that anybody accept cash as payment.

[RB TexLa]

46. Of course one needs cash to engage in criminal activities, but that's really the only need for it.

[MercutioATC]

49. Personal choice, privacy, simplification of one's life.

Those are just a few valid reasons to transact in cash.

While I support the right of an individual to refuse to accept a given medium of currency, I also appreciate the valid, LEGAL, reasons some may have to prefer to deal in cash.

[omega minimo]

56. They may also have "valid, LEGAL, reasons" to notify people trapped on an airplane, AHEAD of time

about their NO CASH SUCKERS!! policy.

[MercutioATC]

59. You're absolutely right.

Certainly reasons that make good business sense, at least.

[omega minimo]

63. or are merely

humane.

[MercutioATC]

65. "Humane" and "legal" often have different definitions.

...as I'm sure we both realize.

My point is that it certainly seems to make good business sense to let customers know what types of payment are accepted for meals.

It also seems to be a good idea to legislate it, but that's not happened yet.

[omega minimo]

66. Bringing up the "humane" makes you think your point was missed?

[MercutioATC]

67. Frankly, yes...because my post had nothing to do with "humane" action.

I was discussing the business and legal issues.

[omega minimo]

68. this is too fucking bizarre for words.

[MercutioATC]

69. No, it's just a difference of framing.

I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with your statement that this issue has a humanitarian component because my statement was based on business and legal concerns.

[omega minimo]

72. It's your conversational

constipation and overwhelming self absorption that's too bizarre.

[MercutioATC]

79. It's called specificity.

But you're right, specificity is "bizarre" to see here.

This thread is a great example of that. Some people here are having difficulty understanding that while the Dollar is guaranteed to be legal tender, there is no requirement for anybody to accept it as payment...because they don't separate the two concepts.

...but continue to view it as self-absorption if that makes you more comfortable.

[omega minimo]

82. No, it's called "your comment does not sufficiently reflect attention back onto MY point IMNSHO"

"so I will not respond or consider any other aspect than attention and bowing down to what MY POINT WAS............"

Anything else is dismissed as irrelevant, even when "you" acknowledge YOUR POINT was not missed. It just wasn't reflected back the way you wanted.

It happens a lot here. Yours was just a particularly glaring example of that hubris and rigid thinking.

That's not "specificity," that's stagnation.

[MercutioATC]

83. You changed the subject halfway down a subthread.

RB TexLa and I were having a discussion about the legitimate use of cash and whether or not somebody had the right to refuse cash.

You jumped in with the "humanity" issue.


If you jump into a conversation and change the subject, people may occasionally not be that interested in your new focus.

[omega minimo]

85. So sorry that mentioning the humane is such a sharp "change of subject" it gives you whiplash

Rigid, stagnant, hubris.

[MercutioATC]

86. Feel free not to reply to my posts, then.

...of start a new subthread, if you'd like to discuss a different subject.

The REASON I wasn't interested in discussing the "humanity" of the matter is that it's a subjective concept. It's established fact that nobody is required to accept cash. It's also fact that there's no legislation requiring an airline to notify passengers that they will not accept cash for meals.

Whether or not those facts are "humane" is subjective.

[krabigirl]

71. Am I on Free Republic? omg

[abumbyanyothername]

50. I have a friend who says that if the USGOV

really wants to fight a war on drugs, they just eliminate cash.

Also does away with prostitution (per se, sex for presents will probably still happen), illegal gambling, etc.

In other words, the government could eliminate crimes of profit with a single act, and they choose not to.

Just eliminate cash.

[omega minimo]

58. Except for the "crimes of profit" of the Banksters and all their Homies.

[abumbyanyothername]

60. Robbin' a bank ain't no crime

compared to owning one.

[omega minimo]

64. Robbin' a nation ain't no crime

compared to owning one.

[MercutioATC]

61. It's an interesting argument, but not very well thought out.

There are ways of concealing the actual recipient of card transactions (or whatever you choose to call carded credit/debit transactions) but it takes more effort.

[Chemisse]

75. Which means there would be a paper trail for every transaction

While that might impede drug sales, that would also invade our privacy.

There are times when I prefer to pay cash rather than be forced to provide personal information (Radio Shack comes to mind).

[ButterflyBlood]

81. Ever heard of PayPal?

There's also legitimate things that I think people would hate to see go away or become more difficult from this, like yard sales.

[Hannah Bell]

73. unless we'd prefer the ptb not have a centralized record of our every transaction.

i guess that's a crime in some people's books.

[RB TexLa]

74. Ok, I'll bite, who or what is the "ptb"?

[Chemisse]

76. Must be powers that be n/t

[Gormy Cuss]

41. You're right that it's not well publicized.

It's one of the many little rules and policies that trip up infrequent travelers. I don't understand why the airlines can't take exact change in lieu of credit/debit, but since they don't and I don't use plastic for anything less than $10 I bring all my own food on board these days.

[LibDemAlways]

42. Alaska Airlines pulls the same stunt. No credit or debit card, no

overpriced snack.

All passengers should bring their own food. Who wants or needs the crap the airlines are selling anyway?

[Jennicut]

43. Glad I know this...I am a diabetic and missing meals can mean you could pass out

if our blood sugar is low. We might fly next summer for a vacation and I will definitely bring a card with me (and some extra snacks).

[Samantha]

48. I walk away from places where I intend to spend cash and they

won't accept it.

A convenience store opened up in this area a few years ago, and it had this policy. Only a credit card or a debit card was accepted.

Personally, I try to avoid using my credit card except when necessary because I figured out a long time ago chronic use results in my spending more. If I want to make a big purchase, I plan ahead and budget to spend that money. I use credit then, and pay the purchase off in a pre-determined amount of time geared to my budget. I never use my bank-issued debit card because I don't want to increase my risk of identity theft and once again, the tendency to spend more.

The convenience store eventually had to abandon its policy because too many consumers in the area balked. Now one can go in there use a debit card, credit card, pay in cash or write or check.

Sam

[dembotoz]

77. next time have him take a limberger cheese sandwich

with fresh garlic and onions.

If someone complains, tell them you wanted to pay for your meal but this was your second choice.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. As a type II diabetic I ALWAYS carry bars with me

on flights anymore

Even if I plan to buy food, some of the food on board is NOT the healthiest

[DireStrike]

80. Cash will be gone one day

The government will disappear the assets of those it doesn't like. Only traitors would say the government could do that, of course.

Property gets cheaper and crappier. Cash becomes non-existent. One day every citizen will have, under his or her exclusive control, nothing of any real value. There will be no trading among the poor except of their labor, the price for which will be helpfully set by the global market of destitute peasants.

Makes you kinda glad for the second amendment. With power evaporating in every other area, who wouldn't cling to that which they could keep?

[SoCalDem]

84. It's about stealing, and/or being robbed

Someone has to look out for the cash, count it, account for it, and eventually deposit it somewhere. the ubiquitous atm/debit card solves all those problems.

Sadly, the good old days of flight are long gone.. I still recall that Pan Am flight to San Juan Puerto Rico..first class, real table cloths, real silverware & china, crystal wine glasses..and the meal? lobster:) and after dinner, a trip up to the lounge (it was the inaugural 747 flight from JFK)) where we took turns sitting in the co-pilot seat & schmoozing with the pilot..

disclaimer : I did NOT pay for this trip. I was with a group of travel agents who were being wooed to sell the 747 services of Pan Am..and to promote first class service:)

[question everything]

87. Ask, and complain to the Dept. of Transportation

http://www.dot.gov/contact.html