The Pittsburgh shooter killed those women because he hated women.

[LostInAnomie]

Not because he was a racist, not because he hated Obama, not because he hated fundamentalists, not because he was a RWer, not because of any political reasoning. He shot them because he hated women. He was a lonely, disturbed man that hated women. All the rest of that crap is immaterial and has no bearing on his motives.

I am simply dumbfounded sometimes at how people on here will twist anything to suit their purposes.

[Warpy]

1. He was all of the above, of course

but he targeted women because he hated women most of all.

[Hello_Kitty]

2. I agree with what Amanda Marcotte wrote about him.

http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/these_crimes_dont_happen_in_a_vacuum/

[Gwendolyn]

21. Get over that stupid stereotype. You need to.

There are sick nice guys and piece of shit bad boys. There are crazy fucked up women, and victimized women who love being abused. Tis the world.

[enough]

24. Those women in that gym class were looking for abuse?

Your logic escapes me.

[Gwendolyn]

29. Lol. I love DU.

:hi:

[Hello_Kitty]

What the fuck is wrong with you?

Did you even read Amanda's post?

[hfojvt]

40. I found it sorta hard to follow

something about men doing violence to women and pick up artists and guys who think they are nice but really aren't. She seems sorta angry that there are men who want to have sex with women or something.

[Hello_Kitty]

56. No, she seems sort of angry that there are men who think they are ENTITLED to sex with women

I share her anger. And I share her disgust in society for accommodating and excusing men who have this sense of entitlement.

[hfojvt]

76. okay, that's clearer

except that I have never known any man who thought he was entitled to it. I suppose that is something that women would see more, since as a man I don't see that much of other men's relations with the opposite sex. I think that may be a matter of perception though. First, that when somebody wants something really, really bad, they get sorta mad when they cannot have it. Secondly, they will often try really, really hard to get it, by all means - fair or foul. In the man-woman relationship it is not often clear 'who you want me to be, to make you sleep with me.' It's not like Jeopardy where you can just buy a vowel when you want a vowel (or like just about anything else you want in this consumer society). Nor is it like bowling, where you put the ball in the pocket and all the pins fall down. It's a 'game' that is fairly serious and most people are not that sure how to score, much less win. And it's even harder trying to find love, which is only for the lucky and the strong.

Finally, nobody likes rejection. According to my uncle, his girlfriends have not reacted well to it. If a man reacts badly to rejection, or to serial rejection, it does not mean he thinks he's entitled to anything. It means he's hurt and angry and maybe a little bit bitter.

Probably though this little speech will not create any understanding, just seem like a defense of the indefensible. There is no defense for rapists or abusers, and I don't like players, but as for the rest of it, I wish there was more love and understanding in the world.

[seabeyond]

77. well, certainly your post makes sense

and i wish this man had been able to find someone to love. it is a sad life he had. and it is certainly sad the answer he came to

[tigereye]

142. yes, it's very sad - heart-breaking

and all those innocent people (women) had to pay when he could have found a way to avoid killing and figure out why he couldn't have a relationship. His mental state was clearly very unbalanced...

[Hello_Kitty]

80. Tough shit. Life isn't fair.

As a woman I'm expected to do whatever I need to do to improve my appearance and personality if I want to attract a partner or get laid. I might do all that and STILL be rejected by someone I'm interested in. Boo hoo. Life goes on.

Finally, nobody likes rejection. According to my uncle, his girlfriends have not reacted well to it. If a man reacts badly to rejection, or to serial rejection, it does not mean he thinks he's entitled to anything. It means he's hurt and angry and maybe a little bit bitter.

When a man reacts to rejection by lashing out the women who rejected him and refusing to even consider that there may be something about himself that is turning them off then, yeah, I'd say he's got a overblown sense of entitlement.

[Odin2005]

86. +1

I got into a flame war on another message board with a couple of posters going on and on about how traumatized they were because "bitchy women" kept on rejecting them. I mention "Gee, last I knew women preferred guys that act like GENTLEMEN and not jerks", and they respond the "it's a proven fact that women like bad, macho guys" BS. :banghead:

[hfojvt]

92. being a gentleman has never helped me one bit

unless you mean gentlemen in its traditional meaning - a genteel upper class person who has enough money so that he never needs to actually work. That I have never been.

But I actually have not been rejected in at least 6 years. I simply have not met any women to ask out. Except for that online date in 2006, but she flaked on me without ever meeting me.

[GodlyDemocrat]

232. Have you thought of using social anxiety drugs?

They may help

[hfojvt]

90. ah, la belle dame sans merci

"As a woman I'm expected to do whatever I need to do to improve my appearance and personality if I want to attract a partner or get laid."

Expected by who? Maybe by the teen magazines that are trying to sell you some product to 'improve your appearance'. None of the women that I have known well, my sisters and female cousins have ever had trouble attracting a partner. Not like I and some of my male cousins have had. One unmarried cousin said he saw an ex-girlfriend who bragged that her new boyfriend bought her a truck. He said 'hell, I bought you a house, and you still weren't happy.'

"When a man reacts to rejection by lashing out the women who rejected him and refusing to even consider that there may be something about himself that is turning them off then, yeah, I'd say he's got a overblown sense of entitlement."

Actually you have no idea what he has tried and what he has considered. Just because he gets angry and lashes out does not mean he has never wondered 'What is wrong with me? What do I have to do? What can I do?'

What you are reading in that blog is probably the anger of somebody who has tried everything he can think of. Most of the rejections that I have experienced have been pretty shallow. It's not like the woman gets to know me and then says 'nah.' Only the woman I wanted to marry did that, and she really seemed pretty cool from the start, like she was never very much into me. So how is somebody supposed to feel about a rejection that seems superficial? Is there supposed to be some magical way I can make myself look like Vin Diesel or George Clooney?

"I might do all that and STILL be rejected by someone I'm interested in. Boo hoo. Life goes on."

Yes, life does go on. That's the bad part. A fate worse than life, except there is no such fate. A couple of things about your statement. This person, like myself, was not just rejected by someONE he was interested in, he was rejected by seemingly everyone he was interested in. Another thing you probably get as a woman, that guys don't get. In between being rejected by various Vin Diesel clones, you probably get to reject a few non-Vins yourself. That may not be fun. I did not enjoy the one time I dumped somebody, but it probably helps to keep you from feeling like the whole world has rejected you.

[Hello_Kitty]

96. Oh geez.

Expected by who? Maybe by the teen magazines that are trying to sell you some product to 'improve your appearance'. None of the women that I have known well, my sisters and female cousins have ever had trouble attracting a partner. Not like I and some of my male cousins have had. One unmarried cousin said he saw an ex-girlfriend who bragged that her new boyfriend bought her a truck. He said 'hell, I bought you a house, and you still weren't happy.'

Oh here we go. The old "you women can get laid anytime!" canard. Which ignores the fact that a lot of men discount women they don't deem as "hot" enough to warrant their attention. ALL men are sexually viable, but only a small percentage of women are. Just ask Howard Stern,, Hugh Hefner, and Bill Maher about that.

Actually you have no idea what he has tried and what he has considered. Just because he gets angry and lashes out does not mean he has never wondered 'What is wrong with me? What do I have to do? What can I do?'

What you are reading in that blog is probably the anger of somebody who has tried everything he can think of. Most of the rejections that I have experienced have been pretty shallow. It's not like the woman gets to know me and then says 'nah.' Only the woman I wanted to marry did that, and she really seemed pretty cool from the start, like she was never very much into me. So how is somebody supposed to feel about a rejection that seems superficial? Is there supposed to be some magical way I can make myself look like Vin Diesel or George Clooney?

Sounds like you were pursuing a woman who was "Just Not That Into You". If you were a woman you would have internalized the lesson and examined yourself such that you would work toward eradicating the flaws that made you less appealing to men. But because you are a man you are permitted the latitude to piss and moan that women are shallow bitches that don't appreciate "nice guys" like you.

And I still can't BELIEVE you are defending a mass murderer!

[hfojvt]

97. Huh? I never said anything negative about the woman I wanted to marry

But the women who reject me based on my fumbling attempts to ask them out, are not doing so with lots of depth. I cannot complain so much because I typically ask women out for shallow reasons too - because I think they are hot. But not always. And amazingly some hot women have gone out with me. After my first date with T, who I later wanted to marry, I had to call up a sister and ask 'What do I do now?'

the canard that women have an easier time finding either a mate or a sex partner seems to be true from observation, and its true of lots of women who are not at all 'hot.' Of course, that seems to be true of lots of men who are not all that hot either.

I am not defending the fact that he engaged in mass murder, but I certainly can relate to the lonliness and rejection he felt leading up to it. And have sympathy there.

Plus, as far as the woman needing to internalize the lesson and examine the flaws, that does not seem to be true. There was another woman in my life who wanted to marry me. I seriously considered it, even though she was not that attractive, and not that smart, seemed to want to compete with me, and wouldn't really open up with me. Anyway, I ultimately rejected her and she didn't have to examine anything. A week later she was dating another guy and six months later she was pregnant and engaged and four years later she had three kids and six years later, or less, she was divorced.

I also talked to the girl who had a huge crush on me in the 4th grade. Very unattractive girl. Probably 30th percentile in our school, if the girls were ranked by appearance. (which is about where I would be if guys were ranked by appearance and the judges were in a generous mood). I saw her at our 10 year reunion. She showed me pictures of her kids.

[PassingFair]

111. "30th percentile in our school, if the girls were ranked by appearance."

No wonder you can relate to "lonliness and rejection".

:eyes:

[redqueen]

143. "that seems to be true of lots of men who are not all that hot either"

Then how about you drop the canard?

Admit to yourself that it's bullshit. And call it out when you see it from now on.

[PVnRT]

101. What a bunch of sexist bullshit

If you were a woman you would have internalized the lesson and examined yourself such that you would work toward eradicating the flaws that made you less appealing to men.

Give me a fucking break. Women all act that way? No, they don't.

The deliberate obtuseness you're exhibiting in this thread is hilarious. People are varied and react in different ways, despite your sexist attempts to classify behavior by plumbing.

[seabeyond]

102. "generally" women internalize. men externalize.

when a female is angry or whatever she takes out on self, when male is he takes out on world

now

i think it is more taught and conditioned of the old day, girls are not allowed to be angry. boys are allowed to be angry

and from what i see in shifts in our society it is less so than in the past where females feel they are not allowed to express. hence the escalation of violent acts from females.

i dont think it is off saying when female is rejected she asks, .... what is wrong with me. and when male is rejected he says what is wrong with her.

just guessing, and society changing, so i dont hold to truth.

neither perfectly healthy. good/bad in both positions. not a judgment call

[Hello_Kitty]

137. Yeah right

When's the last time a woman went on a shooting spree because she was rejected by a man, or men in general?

When's the last time you heard a good looking man being admonished to date a frumpy, unattractive, boring woman because she's "so nice and has a good job!" Believe you me, I heard it constantly when I was young and cute.

Where's the "pickup artist" book or site for women? Where's the "mail order husband" site for bitter women who have been spurned by Western men and allow them to seek a more "traditional" type of man who will cater to them?

[PVnRT]

149. How about addressing what I said this time?

Which had nothing to do with shooting sprees or mail-order brides, but rather your sexist comments about frail little women blaming themselves for not getting a man and brutish men who just want to rape every female they see.

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

210. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

212. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Celtic Merlin]

218. Forget it, PV. It'll never happen.

Read her comments in here. This woman obviously has firmly-held beliefs that all men suck, and she's not going to counter your points. An effort on that level would be intellectually beyond her. She started with "men suck" and replies with "men suck" presented in a different wrapper. Intellectual discourse is not possible with those who can only parrot the same bullshit again and again.

Read my reply to her. I took alot of time to counter her points and the response I received was a personal attack for having the sheer BALLS (heh!) to counter her argument that "men suck". Go figure, huh?

I tried. You tried. I've seen that one or two others have tried. Nobody is ever going to get through that stone wall and I'm convinced that it isn't worth the effort.

Celtic Merlin
Carlinist

[Hello_Kitty]

227. No Celtic Merlin. All men do not suck. YOU suck. eom

[hfojvt]

185. you missed something there

there is no 'pickup artist' book or site for women, because there are not lots of women who need or want help, whereas there are lots of guys who do.

Also, if I can again quote the misogynist author of "Backlash", there's this seeming fact - that women get along better without a husband than men do without a wife.

"The mental health data, chronicled in dozens of studies that have looked at marital differences in the last forty years, are consistent and overwhelming: The suicide rate of single men is twice as high as that of married men. Single men suffer from nearly twice as many neurotic symptoms and are far more susceptible to nervous breakdowns, depression and even nightmares. And despite the all-American image of the carefree single cowboy, in reality bachelors ae far more likely to be morose, passive, and phobic than married men.

When constrasted with single women, unwed men fared no better in mental health studies. Single men suffer from twice as many mental health impairments as single women; they are more depressed, more passive, more likely to experience nervous breakdowns and all the designated symptoms of psychological distress - from fainting to insomnia. In one study, one third of the single men scored high for severe neurotic symptoms; only 4 percent of the single women did." p. 17

If a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle, it seems to be true that a man without a woman is like a fish that has been run over by a bicycle.

[Hello_Kitty]

188. And taking advice from misogynist douchebags like the PUA is just the ticket!

Right, because the guys who comment on his site are totally seeing improvement in their relationships with women and aren't still angry, lonely, and bitter AT ALL. :sarcasm:

[ieoeja]

190. There was that serial killer down in Florida killing men because of past man trouble.

Albeit, I believe that was in response to physical abuse rather than simple rejection.

I couldn't tell you the number of unattractive women people tried pushing me into dating when I was young and attractive. The last time was three weeks ago. No longer young, but I suppose I am attractive for my age (as nobody tries pushing unattractive guys into going out with some gal).

The magazine rack in front of the grocery store check-out counter is about 50% "pickup artist" tips for women.

"Mail order husbands" are few and far between. I do have a friend who pretty much went that route as a charity bachelor auction led to this tall, young man marrying a much older and unattractive (looks and personality) woman with money. But is that more a critique of the men who "buy" them, or the women who "sell" themselves?

[Hello_Kitty]

192. She didn't murder men because they rejected her

Which, BTW, is the #1 reason that men murder women. Usually it's a spouse or partner and the woman has ended the relationship or is about to. The gym shooting is a little different because he killed random women that he didn't know but the motive is the same.

[Celtic Merlin]

171. Nicely WARPED view.

As a woman I'm expected to do whatever I need to do to improve my appearance and personality if I want to attract a partner or get laid.
Really? And just exactly WHO "expects" you to do these things? The men you're chasing in order to "attract a partner or get laid"? And if what you do isn't enough for them, then what? How far are you expected to go by whoever it is that expects these things of you? Finally, what steps do you regularly take to "improve your personality" and are they permanent improvements, or temporary fixes which last only until your target is out of range? I ask these things not to inflame, but rather as a request for information so that may better understand your position.

When a man reacts to rejection by lashing out the women who rejected him and refusing to even consider that there may be something about himself that is turning them off then, yeah, I'd say he's got a overblown sense of entitlement.
When a man or a woman (both are equally capable of lashing out - or don't you believe that to be a possibility?) lashes out at the opposite sex after years (or in this guy's case, decades) of consistent rejection, the reason for the lashing out certainly is NOT "an overblown sense of entitlement". This type of thing happens as a result of frustration over not being able to find somebody to love, to love you, to share our short lives with - to have what most of the rest of the world has: a life partner with which you can have kids, share joy and disappointment, and not feel as though you will live your entire life alone. And if you have read (or will read) the guy's blog, the overwhelming theme in it is NOT "hatred of women"...it's the crushing loneliness, the solitude, the sense of NOT HAVING - of missing that which most of the rest of us seemed to have been able to find (especially by the time we're 48) - somebody to love. Simple basic Human Nature drives us to find partners. In this maniac's twisted sense of who was to blame for his failure to accomplish that, he blamed women for rejecting him despite his best efforts. Perhaps he was simply aiming to high. We'll never really know. I have read his 9-month blog and nothing in there says "sense of entitlement" to me. Sense of wanting, of need, of desire for companionship - absolutely. That "sense of entitlement to women's bodies" is a worn-out catch phrase which was designed to back men off from wanting access to sex without emotional attachment. We men don't pay attention to it any more as one must first be guilty of feeling entitled to having one's way with women before one need be made to feel guilty of that particular piece of backwardness.

If being rejected doesn't make you feel hurt at all, you're an awfully cold fish. If it happens to you consistently over a period of 20 years, it's gonna build up in most people who have at least a basic emotional response to the world. In this guy, it built up without having been released in any way and when he finally cracked under the pressure of it all, it came out violently and inappropriately.

The old "you women can get laid anytime!" canard.
There really is some level of truth to that "canard" - which isn't a canard at all. And while it certainly does not apply to ALL women, it applies to more than half of American women. A woman who is at least REASONABLY attractive (and we're not within a light-year of supermodel status here), a woman who is no worse than average-looking and/or isn't morbidly obese (and even a few who are) can attain a partner for sex with much greater ease than her male counterpart. It doesn't take walking into a bar and yelling out to the patrons, "Hey! Who in here wants to get lucky tonight?" If she's just looking for a sex partner, an average woman has a reasonable chance of accomplishing that much more easily than an average male. If this weren't the case, prostitution wouldn't exist to the degree that it currently exists (yes, it would exist anyway, as men ARE hounds). And while there ARE male prostitutes (most of whom service other men), their number is far outweighed by the number of female prostitutes. Again, this is simple Human Nature. Men have (and this has been exhaustively documented for many, many years - since Kinsey and even decades before) much higher sex drives than have women. Honestly, Kitty.....do you feel that you'd have THAT much trouble finding a willing male partner for sex of you seriously set your mind to it and made a whole-hearted effort?

...a lot of men discount women they don't deem as "hot" enough to warrant their attention. ALL men are sexually viable, but only a small percentage of women are. Just ask Howard Stern,, Hugh Hefner, and Bill Maher about that.
Oh, where do I start with THIS load of fertilizer? Okay, we'll take it in the order presented...
Men discount women that aren't "hot" enough? Are you SERIOUS??? NO! When did THAT start happening? About a million years ago, maybe? Are you saying that physical attractiveness is the FIRST thing we notice about another human being? What a shocker THAT is! What you're ever so CONVENIENTLY omitting from your "men suck" diatribe is that women do exactly the same damned thing every single day. Again, this is simple Human Nature. The only thing that will get a man or women past repulsiveness is money - lots and lots of money. Rich yet ugly men and women have alot easier time finding attractive mates. I have a former client who is a doctor and, frankly, a real "spud" in the looks department. Yet he never had any real trouble finding attractive women who were willing to date him. He's married to a real piece of eye-candy now. Go figure. And you claim that MEN are shallow...

ALL men are sexually viable, but only a small percentage of women are. Just ask Howard Stern,, Hugh Hefner, and Bill Maher about that.
So, the three multi-MULTI-millionaires you list are sexually viable. Well no shit, Sherlock! Each of them is as rich as they can be. I wonder how they are able to attract ANY women at all! Especially Howard Stern. That poor bastard is downright ugly. How the Hell can he find ANYBODY willing to sleep with him? Oh, yes, I forgot - he's worth over 100 million dollars, and RICH cures UGLY like nothing else. Your contention that "ALL" (your capitalization, not mine) men are sexually viable is simply false on its face. George Clooney, Harrison Ford, Mel Gibson - those guys are ALL sexually viable. Half the women in North America would sleep with any or all of them. But, if we take the asshole in question (the health club shooter) as an example, apparently not ALL men are sexually viable. There are actually lots and lots of men who aren't. Especially the men who are short, and/or seriously overweight, and/or "too old", and/or just plain unattractive to today's modern American woman. I'm in the "too old" category. Is this wrong? I'm not saying that it is. It's simple Human Nature. Women want attractive partners just as nakedly (pardon the pun) as men desire attractive partners. And your "small percentage of women" idea is easily proven to be as wrong as it most obviously is. MOST women in America reproduce, or at least have ample opportunity to do so. Alot more than a "small percentage" of American women are creating the next generation of Americans. Men's standards of who they'll impregnate isn't so lofty as you claim it to be. Ask Bill Mahr. He'll tell you. Men are HOUNDS.

If you were a woman you would have internalized the lesson and examined yourself such that you would work toward eradicating the flaws that made you less appealing to men. But because you are a man you are permitted the latitude to piss and moan that women are shallow bitches that don't appreciate "nice guys" like you.
Oh, you're SO right on these two points! If only the commenter were a WOMAN he could have "...internalized the lesson and examined self such that you would work toward eradicating the flaws..." Because MEN are SO incapable of learning things. I wish we weren't all of such limited intelligence. We're barely able to FEED ourselves! If only we could somehow possess the raw intelligence with which all women are born! I don't understand why men don't all aspire to be women - to strive to achieve the level of intellect and education to which women are otherwise entitled. We men are all just so stupid and shallow that all we can REALLY do is "piss and moan" about our situation. Perhaps we should consider using some of the techniques that women have adopted to eradicate "flaws". Alas, (here beginnith the pissing and the moaning) but we have not availed ourselves of such things as: the Wonder Bra; seventeen forms of cosmetics from mascara to eyeliner to colored contact lenses; cosmetic surgery for I can't begin to list the number of things it will do now; breast implants; hundreds of different hair colors (do the drapes match the rug?) and the finest perfumes from Europe. {snark: OFF} Yes, there are a few men who may avail themselves of some of those things, but most don't. Even the most popular men's fragrance costs somewhere around $5 a quart. And the fact that any of us use any of these things proves that Humans are, in general, shallow. A man which YOU, personally, might otherwise find to be an incredibly interesting, highly-intelligent, and intellectually stimulating person is always rejected at the outset based on his being too old, too fat, too short, or physically unappealing. We're all guilty of this. Yet again, it's basic Human Nature. I hereby reject your "shallow bitches" garbage, as on one hand you complain that "...men discount women they don't deem as "hot" enough to warrant their attention" but won't, on the other hand, admit that women do exactly that same thing all the time - Every. Single. Day.

And finally, we come to this false accusation of the other commenter:
And I still can't BELIEVE you are defending a mass murderer!
Neither the other commenter nor I are defending - nor have we defended in any possible way - the health club shooter. Expressing an understanding of what he wrote, the situation he found himself in, or the level of frustration he experienced most certainly does NOT equate to a defense of his actions. The guy snapped. He was deranged. He committed an atrocity. While I'm not certain that the murder of three people qualifies one as a "mass murderer", he did kill three people who had done nothing to him. And this act alone does indeed make him a loon, a dirtball, a scumbag. NOBODY here defends him. Your accusation that the other commenter was defending (and your current thoughts that I am also defending) this man is hyperbole. Seriously - SERIOUSLY NOW - you should retract that statement. It's wrong. It seemed to me that the other commenter, like I, was attempting to help you and others to understand the guy's motives OTHER than his having gone off his rocker. An interpretation of his blog writings doesn't mean that the one doing the interpreting approves of what he did. Attempting to provide others with a greater understanding of what drove an otherwise normal-seeming person to commit such a repulsive act does not constitute a defense of the man.

Honestly - and I'm being as serious with you as I can possibly be - HONESTLY.....men don't suck.

Celtic Merlin
Carlinist

[Hello_Kitty]

183. Jesus Christ

That was quite the pile self-indulgent and self-pitying bullcrap. I'd laugh if it wasn't kinda scary.

Honestly - and I'm being as serious with you as I can possibly be - HONESTLY....I don't think all men suck. I think men who are whiny crybaby entitled creepy assholes suck. I don't know what you are like IRL but if that post you just wrote is any indication, you probably creep the women you encounter the fuck out and THAT'S why you don't get laid. Sorry, just gotta be honest with you.

[Celtic Merlin]

219. As I expected...

A short and unintelligent reply which addresses none of the points made, answers none of the questions posed, and counters nothing I typed with calm and intellectually-honest responses.

Easier for you that way, is it not sweetie?

Although the ad-hom attack wasn't unexpected. After all, I'm a male who stood up to you and that's obviously a most heinous crime in your little world devoid of strong, intelligent, rational men.

Honestly - and I'm being as serious with you as I can possibly be - HONESTLY...of course you believe that all men suck - except for the weak and meek ones who polish your tiara, kowtow to your nasty attitudes about men, and "know their place" in your small-minded world. Just re-read your blatantly-sexist comments which make that belief perfectly clear to all. Keep that up, and the point you made about so few women being "sexually viable" will remain as thoroughly true in your case as it has likely been all of your pathetic life. This is at least the second post of yours which concerns itself with who is and isn't "getting laid". Drop the sex fixation. It's unbecoming and is very weird. Why do you care so much about who is having sex and who is not?

I'll continue to respect all of the men and women I meet who are respectable people and continue to enjoy the wonderful relationships I have with many people of both genders. I invite you to drop your "bitch-princess from hell" attitude toward men and see for yourself how men and women can have good times with each other without one sex dominating the other. We're having alot of fun out here in the real world. Join us when you're ready.

.

.

[Hello_Kitty]

220. Fuck off, creep. eom

[Celtic Merlin]

222. Bravo! You certainly told me!

Perhaps now you have learned that sexism will be recognized here on DU and called out for what it is - unfounded hatred.

Enjoy your weekend.

[PVnRT]

100. You're right, all men just want sex

Whatever.

[raccoon]

106. I was about to ask, "What planet are you living on?" but then you answered my question.

"except that I have never known any man who thought he was entitled to it. "

[redqueen]

128. No shit... maybe he just doesn't know many guys?

:wtf:

[demgurl]

107. "I have never known any man who thought he was entitled to it."

The guy that raped me thought he was entitled to it. There is no excuse for rape/forced sex whether the guy hates rejection or not. I begged my rapist not to rape me. I even offered that I would perform oral sex on him if he would just let me go. He REJECTED my offer of oral sex and pushed my legs apart as he entered me, while I begged, and he said two words : "Too late".

Saying someone hates rejection does not excuse extreme, and illegal, actions.

[mkultra]

109. some people are insane

When pressure is applied to insanity, violence erupts.

[Odin2005]

163. +1

[provis99]

178. so now all men are rapists.

and women wonder why some men turn misogynist.

[Hello_Kitty]

191. There are some scary fucking dudes on DU that I hope never to meet in real life.

And you are one of them.

[demgurl]

214. I will assume since you replied to my post that you are addressing me.

I was replying to a post that was not yours. The author said that he had never known anyone who felt entitled to sex. I wrote back saying I had known someone of that sort. The guy raped me as I begged him not to. He did it anyway. Would you not say he felt entitled to sex?It was the first night I had met him. I did not even go out on a date with him, we met at the party where he raped me. I did not play games and come onto him only to turn him down. But if I had, I am entitled. I am just letting you know that this guy felt like he had a right to sex with someone he had never met before and never dated.

The author of the post, I was addressing, said some men do not take rejection well. I say that is no excuse for someone to rape another person.

I never said that every man is a rapist. That would be silly of me to say. Maybe some men turn misogynist because they do not understand and do not care to try and understand women.

[Odin2005]

88. The sense of entitlement that caused my friend to get raped.

Like I said below, this guy sounds a lot like the monster that raped my friend. "Sexually Frustated" creep with a sense of entitlement.

[omega minimo]

157. That was bizarre

:wow: Like it's a joke or something :crazy:

[lapislzi]

103. WTF?

Victimized women who love being abused? I have never come across such a creature in my nearly five decades on this planet. I am a domestic violence survivor who has counseled numerous women. I never met one who enjoyed being abused. The reasons for remaining in an abusive relationship are many and varied, and pleasure is not among them.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

113. the poster you're responding to has a story of her own

and her solution has been to denigrate all women who note that misogyny exists or that male abuse of women is a theme embedded within the leering fascination with sexually victimized hot women in our culture, or that cultural messages teach boys that no matter what they look like or how they behave, hot women will lust after them--that women are commodities just like the beer and sports cars they drool over. Take the hotties and express your contempt for the ones that turn you off.

[lapislzi]

116. My ex used to say

"the only person who knows whether a man is going to have sex that day is the woman."

Might have been the only right thing he ever said. If only more women understood this concept.

BTW, I don't consider rape to be "sex" in the conventional sense. It is violence expressed in a sexual context.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

122. violence expressed in a sexual context

absolutely. It's a crime of power -- and for some men, power seems to mainline to their parts.

[lapislzi]

125. I like you. You get it. n/t

[tigereye]

145. I do think the commodification of women plays a role, as well as anger

and ambivalence that the culture (unwittingly or no) generates toward women. Add that to a clearly unbalanced and enraged individual with multiple weapons.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

168. indeed. n/t

[NashVegas]

47. One of the Better Comments In Response To That

In regards to the apologists in the PUA community:

The guy didn’t have any friends at all, but nobody’s lecturing men to go out and befriend an angry, lonely, racist loser, today, for the good of the world. Even though that actually might stand some chance of helping somebody, unlike charity sexing.

[seabeyond]

50. is that what this is about. i was TOLD to post on this thread. then reading i am suppose to feel

guilty this man hates women. i dont know what the fuck is going on with this thread, but one particular poster feels all us women are suppose to come in here and "acknowledge" some kind of responsibility for this shit

a huge ass

wtf....

[NashVegas]

57. That's Messed Up

[seabeyond]

60. i am thinking.

time to go read a book

:toast:

[Gwendolyn]

61. Would be amazing if you did. n/t

[NashVegas]

120. Really Uncalled For

[lapislzi]

104. Thank you, seabeyond

Big buckets of wtf being dumped in this thread.

[seabeyond]

105. this truly was one of the more odd threads. nt

[Odin2005]

164. Some people's "progressiveness" disappears when misogyny is involved.

HiFructosePronSyrup being the perfect example.

[Hello_Kitty]

194. Ain't that the truth!

And the worst thing about liberal misogynists is that they are harder to avoid than the conservative ones.

[Odin2005]

196. Yup!

[hfojvt]

78. somebody should though

Secondly, he wanted sex more than he wanted a platonic male friend. Also as far as income goes, he seemingly was not a loser. At least he had a fair amount of vacation.

Who knows if he had had a male friend who also was a lonesome loser, then they might have been like Clebold and Harris instead of just one shooter.

[Hello_Kitty]

81. Dude, do you realize what you are saying?

Secondly, he wanted sex more than he wanted a platonic male friend. Also as far as income goes, he seemingly was not a loser. At least he had a fair amount of vacation.

You sound almost exactly like the killer when he was describing himself. So he wasn't bad looking and had a decent job, so what? Judging from the stuff he wrote in his blog I don't think it's much of a stretch to conclude that he might have behaved in a way that majorly creeped out the women he encountered.

[redqueen]

132. Lots of people don't get sex... but most manage to avoid becoming homicidal.

Stop blaming his problems on lack of sex. His problem was he was just too selfish.

[redqueen]

130. What a fantastic resopnse.

Thanks for posting it here.

[mkultra]

108. yes, using tragedy to forward an anti-male screed.

stupid. Women are no better.

[Hello_Kitty]

138. Right. Women go on shooting sprees when men reject them.

And there are blogs devoted to defending such women and their actions. :eyes:

[provis99]

179. no, they get their new boyfriends to do the shooting for them.

[eyepaddle]

110. I've never before seen the acronym "PUA.":

And I don't have the time to pound through all the Pick up artist's musings, so I am going to assume that there is a fair amountshort-sighted machoism and objectionable commentary. However, I have known a few guys--more than a few actually--who would qualify as "pick up artists" and "mass marketing" approach really does work. The keys to that kind of success are to: 1) ask lots and lots of women and 2) don't take it personally when they say no--because most women will.

This next statement isn't intended as a defense of "PUAs" but if you would like to get meta on the issue there is some positive stuff: they are telling guys like Sodin to change themselves and not expect all women to change to suit the George Sodinis of the world. Granted, the downside is they are telling them to become rather callous and shallow, but to be honest some people like that. And it is certainly an improvement; going from being a homicidal psychopath to just another shallow self-centered jerk.

I don't know, obviously the whole thing just makes me want to cry.

[Hello_Kitty]

140. The PUA was saying that men are justified in committing murder if they can't get laid.

That the "need" for sex is that great.

[eyepaddle]

141. Which one? She links to a few of them--do they all say that?

At least one of the excerpts seems to imply that the dude should've just figured out how to become a stone cold player, and then none of this would've happened.

While being a shallow narcissist isn't ever really commendable, at least it isn't criminal, or mkore to the point, homicidal.

But it the pick up guys are really justifying murder, well....

There really isn't much more to be said.

[eyepaddle]

147. I read the Roissy piece--though not the comments

and if that is the one you are referring to that's not how I read it. It sounds to me like he is saying that guys like Sodini might THINK that anything is justified, but that really he just needs to get with the program.

I've never read of any those "how to get laid" books or looked into what this "GAME" thing might be, but I've heard a few interviews where these guys are shilling for their bit. As I understand it is really along the lines of "hit on every woman you meet" (that's the hard part, doing so in a way that isn't repellent) and don't take it personally when they say no.

WHile I have never been a player, I've lived with a few. Most often they just walk up to a woman, say hello, smile, ask if they are inteseted in sex. If the answer is no, they waste no time in leaving her alone and moving on.

I could never bring myself to be that forward, but that stuff works, sure you might have less thatn a 1% success rate, but the cost of asking is minimal, so if you do it enough you will occasionally succeed.

Like I say, I am not sure about how long term healthy that sort of outlook on life is, but it is clearly a step up from what this Sodini and other guys like him do--which is seethe with resentment that women can't read his mind and cater to his whims.

[Hello_Kitty]

151. Roissy straight out says it right here

When men kill women, the underlying reason is almost always an unfulfilled psychosexual need. This goes for spree shooters, rapists, and serial killers. I'm not surprised Sodini hasn't had sex in nearly 20 years. As I've written before, to men celibacy is walking death, and anything is justified in avoiding that miserable fate.

[eyepaddle]

153. Yeah, that's the paragragh I almost quoted before. I htink this Roissy dude is trying

to say that Sodini's 19 or 20 year dry spell was largely self-inflicted, and something that could've been avoided if he had changed his approach. While that last sentence is troubling (to say the least) when read with the rest of the piece I think he left out the part about is justified in THEIR minds.

But then, it seems that this is something he has written about before and I don't feel like plowing through all of his musings to see what he definitely means.

[redqueen]

155. "to men celibacy is walking death, and anything is justified in avoiding that miserable fate."

Sick fucking asshole.

:puke:

[Odin2005]

165. Ditto.

:puke:

[GodlyDemocrat]

231. Bull, I know many "jerks" who abuse women out of entitlement

Acting like a gentleman is generally a good policy to generate mutual feelings.

[demmiblue]

3. Underneath it all, I think he had a mental illness.

[TahitiNut]

85. According to some, that mental illness is called "testosterone poisoning" ...

... something that infects nearly 50% of the population and some just get it worse than others. :shrug:

[Odin2005]

87. Hey, just because I have a Y Chromosome doesn't mean I have to act like an asshole!

[Uzybone]

4. the fact he is racist is immaterial?

yeah he purposely attacked women because he hates women, that is beyond dispute.. But we have DUers even denying the fact that he is racist at all. That is sad.

[LostInAnomie]

7. How does it matter?

Did he target black people somewhere and I didn't hear about it?

[G_j]

12. you may have no interest in the profiles of the people who do these kind of things

but it does matter.

[Uzybone]

15. It is like saying the fact someone tortures cats

is immaterial to him turning out to be a serial killer. It all helps paint a picture of what kind of person this is.

It doesn't matter if he was racist? Wow.

Believe me if the guy was a misogynist and anti-semite and went out and killed some Jews no one would be so flippantly saying his misogyny didn't matter.

[LostInAnomie]

48. If a misogynist/anti-semite killed only male jews...

... it wouldn't matter if he was a misogynist or not. Just like the fact that this guy's dislike of religion has plays no role in the murder of these women.

[imdjh]

94. No it isn't. It's completely different.

I realize that in Perfect World racism is a mental illness, but in Real World it isn't, some would actually say it's normal (normal: found in the majority or average of the population.).

Believe me if the guy was a misogynist and anti-semite and went out and killed some Jews no one would be so flippantly saying his misogyny didn't matter.

As someone else said, if he went out shooting up groups of Jews and groups of women, one might make a connection there. But hating women when you have an ex-wife who divorced you precisely one year after giving birth and hating Jews for being the mysterious powers behind the Evil of the world is not the same thing. There is no evidence to support the latter feeling.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

115. actually, it's always seemed to me that of all the hatreds people harbor,

misogyny is regularly dismissed as immaterial.

Killers of blacks are viewed as the threats to blacks and society that they are and vilified for it.

Killers of women are routinely labeled as merely sad losers in the game of love--
not as people with a very big hatred of women looking for anything that feeds their distorted view.

(I just got ill at the Yahoo headline, that this guy was lovelorn. Poor poor him. jeezus christ, there are even people here saying if only some WOMAN would offer sex to these poor misunderstood hate-criminals, everything would be all better)

[redqueen]

134. It's pretty fucking depressing, yes.

*sigh*

[BlancheSplanchnik]

156. ...

:hug:

yes....

I was so pissed after the fucking Yahoo headline, (god I hate yahoo--if their email service and groups services didn't work well for me, I'd dump them--hate having to read their sexist, repuke crap on their homepage) I started a thread---haven't checked back in a while but the first couple of replies slagged me for...wait for it...

1st) being insensitive because ALL murder is horrible (I guess that person didn't read my point),
2nd) being a manhater.

Can you fucking imagine that kind of reply to anyone posting and venting their anger about anti-gay or racial violence?

I might just have to stop coming by DU... not sure the aggravation is worth it

[redqueen]

160. I'm glad you started that thread.

It was clearly needed, based on some of the responses.

You might want to check it again. :hug:

I get that same feeling about this place sometimes. But for all the frustration, it's still my favorite place on the net.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

174. I am happily surprised!

Looks like DU is evolving too.

Yeah, there are a few people determined to defend their "issues" on that thread, but so many deeply thoughtful responses and people who GET IT, not to mention recs... I'm pretty encouraged!

:pals:

[lapislzi]

180. There's a reason this dude wasn't getting any

And I don't think it had anything to do with his looks (a little creepy, imo, but not excessively so), his job, his bank account. He clearly lacked some basic set of social skills that would enable him to connect on a meaningful level with any other human being, let alone undertake a romantic attachment. I'd be willing to bet that he put out a weird vibe...and people are generally quick to pick up on that.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

182. yes, thank god

I shudder for those who due to abuse or other issues that result in desperate needyness mistake sick behavior for normal though (I know from experience).

[Hello_Kitty]

198. I am stunned by the defenses of him that I'm seeing here

Always starting off with the "well OF COURSE I don't condone what he did" disclaimer and then followed by mewling about how hard it is for the poor menz to get the love and sex to which they are automatically entitled.

I don't know why I'm shocked but I am. And yeah, if he had picked another group of people to target besides women NO ONE would be going to great lengths to explain his behavior and attribute it to society not doing enough to make racists/homophobes/anti-semites feel loved.

[redqueen]

221. I'm not all that surprised.

Sad, isn't it?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

8. Where did you get that he was a racist?

I haven't seen any evidence of that at all.

Where did you find that?

[imdjh]

95. He posted some stuff on a BBS

Which comes off as racist, but i actually more consistent with his hatred of women (white women). He's talking about how white girls are going off to college and getting fucked by black guys.

[Schema Thing]

5. You couldn't possibly know enough to make the statement you made.

[LostInAnomie]

9. Yes, I can.

I read his journal, and if you can't see the basis for his shooting of women in there you aren't looking hard enough. If race was his reasoning he wouldn't have turned the lights off.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

14. You may say whatever you want,

but your interpretation was shallow and off-base, not nearly close enough to what that data provided.

You simply drew conclusions without examining any of the material with any care or intellectual discernment..................................

[LostInAnomie]

23. Are you kidding? If there is one constant theme throughout his journals...

... it is an anger at women. Anger at their rejection of him (he talked about 30 million rejections, how pointless dating was, how often he'd been called a "nice guy"). Anger that without them his life had no purpose and they had caused him to waste half of his life.

Sure, as you said down thread, his problems probably stemmed from self loathing. But, to ignore his actions and his words is to ignore the manifestations of that disorder.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

32. Wrong -

what you're reading as "anger," is, in fact, fear.

That's the shallow reading, seeing it as anger. The point is to find the subtext and look at what conspired to put together such a scenario, and all you're doing is drawing conclusions.

It's like building a roof on a house without a foundation or walls............................

[Schema Thing]

17. It's not that I think you're wrong about him hating women

it's that I think you couldn't possibly know what portions of his defective personality added up to this outcome. But it sure wasn't just-one-thing.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

6. No -

he didn't hate women. He feared women and didn't understand them.

He did, though, hate himself..................

[LostInAnomie]

11. Fair enough.

But, it's pretty obvious how that self loathing manifested itself.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

That was his suicide -

the shooting of the women - a group of women in the dark, isolated within a class, doors closed, the only way the shooter could feel in control - was designed to ease his fear. He was caught up in his terror regarding women, so much so that it didn't matter who he shot, just that he'd be safe while he shot them - hence, the turning out of the lights.

His self-loathing ended with his suicide. It also ended his fear of the women..............................

[LostInAnomie]

18. You are trying to make the murders immaterial to his actions.

It wasn't the fear from women he craved. It was the destruction of women he wanted. From what I read in his journal, there wasn't any evidence of him menacing women or even any action where that was a latent motivation. He grew bitter at their rejection of him. He went on and on about it in his journal. He wanted them to pay for, as he felt, making his life a failure.

If causing women to simply feel fear was his goal, there were many ways to go about it without killing them.

He may have hated himself, and he may have killed himself from this feeling. But, it is obvious that his hate at least manifestly directed at women.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

31. Clearly,

you didn't understand what I wrote.

Your first two sentences make no sense, sorry. You're reading "fear" as a substantial entity, and that's not at all what was meant in what I wrote.

I have no idea what "latent motivation" means.

Your attribution of reactions to someone you never met - "He grew bitter" - smacks of poor screenwriting, and has absolutely no basis in reality.

As for causing women to feel fear, I, once again, have no idea what you're talking about.

I think you're in over your head on this one, so I'll bow out now, and leave you to your fantastic theories based in your own strange thinking...............................

[cynatnite]

10. Yes, he hated women...no argument...

types like him are usually right-wing and racist as well.

He fits a pattern and his political extremism also says much about him. We should not minimize it or ignore it.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

16. Where do you get that?

I'd like to see the data on that one - killers of women are "usually right-wing and racist (sic) as well."

You have absolutely no information on this shooter's political beliefs.

You're just making stuff up, and that's silly........................

[enough]

20. Tangerine, we actually do have writings where he blames his problem on the sexual charisma of

black men.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

33. Really?

I'd like to see them - got a link?

[cynatnite]

25. Did he not write about his hatred of Obama and blacks?

Seems to me that's very telling of his political beliefs.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

34. He wrote about the election of a black man,

and he also wrote about hearing a black man call in to a talk radio show and be treated badly by the host. He wrote of how bad he felt for the black man.

This one isn't going to fit into those tiny boxes people love to rush out whenever someone they don't know does something terrible.......................

[cynatnite]

45. Read for yourself...

http://georgesodini.com/20090804.htm

There are a lot of sick shit on his blog, but his antipathy toward both women and blacks are obvious. He complains about how the so-called "liberal media" loves Obama. Take that for what you will. Also, he states that a paster convinced him that you can commit mass murder and still go to heaven.

There is a lot here, but I still think he was a racist extremist who hated women.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

49. I've read it -

and, as I already stated, that's one small, very, very small facet of a complicated individual. Trying to draw conclusions about him will, no doubt, make some people feel better, because they need to have labels and tiny boxes in order to keep their anxiety levels from rising. The truth is too difficult and too complicated and too unknowable.

I's very hard to say "I don't know" if you're working with a shaky personal infrastructure..........................

[cynatnite]

65. People draw conclusions all the time...

even without a complete pschological profile. It happens quite regularly here on DU when it comes to bush, cheney, and a whole other host of individuals. That's been going on for quite some time.

[saltpoint]

226. Agree completely.

Things are layered. In the world of the black and white, there's only those two shades. There's up or there's down. Nuance? They never heard of it.

"They don't got no use for no nuance."

But there's no more fair approach to the temple than by the most winding path.

[EOTE]

146. Why do you include the (sic) after racist?

Are you suggesting that racist isn't spelled correctly in this particular case? Or that it's used improperly? I don't have any hard data regarding killers of women, but that doesn't sound like a stretch to me at all.

[Gwendolyn]

13. Yes he killed women. That was his motive.

Thanks for posting this.

I have no idea whether you are male or female, but that doesn't. matter. He did shut off the lights before he started shooting because some part of him couldn't face it, and the rest of it, he hated women. I don't know why every political group wants to own something. Sometimes it is what it is.

[Chemisse]

22. I agree - the issue steering his actions was his fear/hate of women

His political views or whether or not he was racist are simply not relevant to the story.

Sure, we are all tempted to say if someone is an idiot or does bad things, they must be right-wing republicans, could very well be extreme Christians, and are most likely racist.

But we don't know if that is true, and why adopt an issue? We have plenty of real examples to cope with.

[enough]

19. We have to face the way racism and hatred of women has intersected in our country

almost from the beginning. In his writings, this man blamed his sexual problems on the fact the black men get all the best white women. This sexual fear and hatred goes back to be beginnings of slavery, which actually goes back farther into our history than we usually think. These two problems are inextricably linked in our history and our national psyche.

[BlooInBloo]

26. Apparently we don't. This I have learned from DU.

[EFerrari]

27. You're going to make their heads explode.

And you are right. :)

[Gwendolyn]

30. You go with that. n/t

[EFerrari]

42. When I need advice from you, I'll ask for it, thanks.

[Gwendolyn]

46. Unfortunately, we're stuck with each other's opinions.

No great shakes to you that there is even a thread asking people to consider the fact that it was about women. Which for some reason never works for you.

[EFerrari]

215. You really don't know me well enough to come to that conclusion.

Nor will you ever know me well enough.

[LostInAnomie]

43. I think you are misreading that section.

He's not blaming black men for getting white women (although he's obviously not happy about it). He's angry that white women would choose black men or anyone for that matter over himself. He felt he was entitled to them, and that because of their rejection he felt they ruined his life.

If racism truly had a role in these murders, wouldn't he have targeted a class full of minorities?

[enough]

55. The section looks very different if it's read without the _____ blank spaces where

ABC took out the worst obscenities, etc. When you read the passage before it was censored, it's clear that he was fixated on his imaginings of black men's sexuality.

Anyway, as usual, I think we're arguing here among friends, and there's no doubt this was a hideous act of violence against women, and as such, will sink into nothingness very soon in the national consciousness. We're so very used to it. I think our culture actually believes violence against women is some sort of human right of white males. Right up there with their right to own any kinds of guns they can think up.

I want to stress again before I go to bed, you and I are arguing among friends.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

73. I haven't read the journal......

....but I assume "good looking guys who act like assholes" probably take up a lot his rage too. Guys affected with "nice guy" syndrome look at ANY man who has a woman he would like as automatically an asshole or scumbag who must be dumping a lot of money, jewelry or drugs on a woman to keep her happy.

[Number23]

79. I really have absolutely no idea where this idea came from that black men love white women

Is this some racist shit, started to justify castration and murder of male slaves, that has somehow been absorbed as truth by current culture?

Cause I just don't get it. AT ALL. Where did this foolishness come from and why won't it die??

[AspenRose]

124. Maybe it's the mythology of appearing to desire what you aren't supposed to have

We have unspoken rules in society and culture steeped in mythology about what we are "supposed" to want and what we aren't "supposed" to want. What's "acceptable" and what isn't. Some buy into it whole hog (which perpetuates the stereotype), and some don't.

Mythology: Men in mid-life crises want a young trophy wife because they are seen as more desirable, and it proves that they can (still) attract that kind of woman. (Society-at-large sees this as normal, acceptable, practically expects this to happen and are mystified when it doesn't occur)

Mythology: Black men want a white trophy wife because they are seen as most beautiful by societal standards, and proves that they too can attract "the prize" in spite of societal taboos and widespread bigotry. (Consequence: A white woman who would choose to be with a black man over a white one is a race traitor, and that is seen as the ultimate slap in the face to white men, who feel they are superior to blacks in every way. These "race traitors" are then seen as spoiled, ruined, lacking in virtue and judgment and are not worth having, and are probably sexpots. Notice how he called white women who chose to be with black men "hos.")

Mythology: Black women, who are portrayed as promiscuous and "jezebels," are concurrently seen as inferior to white women in aesthetics and desirability. White men who would choose to be with a black woman in a committed long-term relationship (and not just as a one-night-stand to take advantage of the alleged sexual prowess out of curiosity) over a white woman have probably been rejected by white women or they are insecure....and something is wrong with them that they would willingly choose to "lower their standards" and subject themselves to ridicule and scorn.

I don't know. :shrug:

(And before someone accuses me of actually *believing or supporting* said mythologies listed above, let me state I am simply offering cultural theoretical examples of mythologies and stereotypes that don't seem to die, and are believed to be true by a large number of people.)

[Number23]

197. Yeah, but the thing that gets me is that the VAST majority of black men date and marry black women

The numbers of interracial marriages in America have gone up significantly over the last 3 decades. Now a WHOPPING 7% of American marriages are interracial. And yes, black man/white woman are a large part of these stats, but did you know that the VAST majority of these marriages are white man/Asian woman?? Yet, I have never seen a growing theme that "every white man wants an Asian woman." How come we don't see that anywhere??

Thanks for your excellent post, Aspen! These bullshit stereotypes just annoy me. In addition to being incredibly racist and disrespectful to black women, they aren't even damned true! I just looked at my high school class reunion web site. Girl, we had 400 people in our class. Out of the goo-gobs of married couples around, I'm the ONLY one married to a white person!!!! And I'm a woman!! :rofl: :rofl:

[AspenRose]

117. Correct.

[enough]

28. Please look at his writings where racism and hatred of women are inextricably linked

Full text of the blog by ABC News here:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=8258001&page=1

snip>

Amerika has chosen The Black Man. Good! In light of this I got ideas outside of Obama's plans for the economy and such. Here it is: Every black man should get a young white girl.... Kinda a reverse indentured servitude thing. Long ago, many a older white male landowner had a young Negro wench girl for his desires. Bout' time tables are turned on that ----. ... LOL. More so than they dig the white dudes! Every daddy know when he sends his little girl to college, she be ... real good. I saw it. "Not my little girl", daddy says! (Yeah right!!) Black dudes have thier choice of best white ----. You do the math, there are enough young white so all the brothers can each have one for 3 or 6 months or so.

snip>

[LostInAnomie]

37. Even that passage belies a hatred of women.

Even that section you posted wasn't so much about black men getting white women, but white women choosing them over him. That is what the vast majority of his laments were about, women not wanting him. It consumed him and drove him to hate women.

[enough]

41. Dear lost, I completely agree that he hated women with a murderous passion.

I am also saying that that hatred of women is profoundly connected with his racism. These two things are deeply connected in the psyche of many men in our country.

Listen, I am a woman with two adult daughters. All of us spend several hours a week in various kinds of activities in our different local gyms. This mass murder is no doubt an expression of deep hatred of women. To me, the greatest mystery is why it is not a bigger story in the mainstream media. I tend to think it's because dying at the hands of men is one of the traditional roles of women in our society. We would rather cry about them after they die than protect them while they are alive. In other words, I am a bitter, angry feminist of 65 years old.

But that doesn't mean that racism is not also a terrible part of this slough of death we have apparently come to accept.

[AspenRose]

126. I agree

And I don't think it's an either/or. It is both.

I don't think people are discounting or disagreeing that this guy clearly had a problem with women. I also don't think it makes me any less of a feminist to see there were racial motives that were an undercurrent to his beliefs. Misogyny wasn't his only problem, and I'm not going to be petty enough to ascribe percentages to which issue predominated more in this guy's mental illness.

As a woman of color, I shouldn't *have* to choose which is more "important": Racism or misogyny. In my day-to-day life, I don't have the luxury of separating one from the other.

And to be honest, this is why a lot of women of color do not always feel welcome in the feminist folds. It is often acceptable (and perhaps even expected) to downplay issues of racism for the sake of promoting issues of feminism. We shouldn't HAVE to ignore racism to be seen as an "acceptable" feminist promoting feminist values.

Lastly, you are absolutely correct: Misogyny and racism ARE deeply connected in the psyche of many American men. To recognize that doesn't mean you don't feel this tragedy didn't have a hatred of women at its core (or that racism is somehow taking attention away from that).

I think for most of us, that's a given.

[seabeyond]

131. are you kidding. the black women should head the fight with feminism....

lol

not welcome in fold. geeeesh. have sexism and racism to deal with, pure respect from me.

[AspenRose]

144. .

:hi:

[seabeyond]

213. right back atcha

:hi:

[Karenina]

162. Historically, black women have NOT been "welcome in the fold"

AT ALL. Back in the day, white women, who reaped MAJOR BENEFITS from affirmative action, set their agendas with their OWN points of reference and privilege to define.

[seabeyond]

203. probably

but it certainly isnt how i feel about it

black women are being hit by all sides....

[Karenina]

216. You weren't there.

Welcome to my world. Thanks for noticing. :loveya:

[Karenina]

161. BINGO!

:applause:

[Uzybone]

44. "white women choosing them over him:"

think about it. What does that say about his opinion of black men?

[LostInAnomie]

52. Oh, I'm sure he was probably a racist...

... but I think you need to look at that post in the context of his whole journal. He hopped from Obama getting elected directly to the fact that women were choosing to be with anyone but him. His whole journal if full of references to women rejecting him, him not getting laid, how without women his life was empty, how he felt he deserved women, etc. It absolutely consumed him. The fact that he shot up a room full of women speaks volumes when compared to one post about white women and black men.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

39. I've read that -

and to try to put any kind of singular label - sexist, racist - on this character is an act of simplistic futility. Trying to fit him - again - into tiny boxes that might be understandable by the lowest common denominator is hardly accurate.

He was a very damaged, fragmented, tortured personality, and there is absolutely no way of looking at this blog and thinking you know even a bit of what this man was about. You are looking at one small facet of a multi-faceted organism that grew and changed for years and years.

I understand that it's easier to grasp if you dumb an incident down to the work of some "racist, sexist, homophobic, whatever" but that's just not reality. The truth is something we'll never know, and if affixing quick, slick, trite labels helps ease the anxiety of not understanding something - which is really too bad, because that discomfort can be the impetus for some wonderfully creative discoveries - then you'll keep doing it.

But it is in no way indicative of any kind of meaningful truth...........................

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chollybocker]

36. That he killed these women with a gun and bullets seems to escape the armchair psychiatrists

so far.

[Pavulon]

59. Smart people look at motive..

the blame the tool crowd got smart in 1995. Fixing root cause is now the expectation, not look good feel good, do nothing gun restrictions.

[NashVegas]

99. And Often Miss the Forest For the Trees

[devilgrrl]

51. Oh phew! He only hated women. I'm so relieved to know that!

:sarcasm:

[seabeyond]

53. i mean.... wtf. nt

[Gwendolyn]

54. Just look at this mess of a thread. No one can imagine he did it because he hated women.

But once again, thanks for posting the truth. :)

[seabeyond]

62. since about everyone agrees he hated women, i have to wonder about your reading

comprehension

is it some great revelation from the op that the shooter hated women?

is there some point you want to make?

[LostInAnomie]

64. There have been numerous threads linking his actions...

... to many misplaced reasons. I've seen threads wanting more attention given to his racism, hate of Obama, RW views, etc. I've even seen people trying to link him to FR.

The fact is that his dissatisfaction with women was the manifest content in his writings and that same dissatisfaction was the primary motive for the murders. All the rest is commentary.

[seabeyond]

66. dissatisfaction of women??? jeeeezus. nt

[LostInAnomie]

68. Typo

Supposed to say "dissatisfaction with women". As in he was completely dissatisfied with any connection he had with women. He wanted to be with them, he hated them for rejecting him, he saw no purpose to life without them, etc.

[Gwendolyn]

67. It's not important at all according to you.

Which is totally sad, considering you are constantly on threads that are all about women not being equal. And always on the threads about the anime thing in Japan or porn in North America. I find your opinions telling. You're very okay with splaying apart porn, but when it comes to actually denouncing the murder of women, you are silent. You suck as a feminist.

[LostInAnomie]

69. I think you and I are seeing a trend with a few people today.

[seabeyond]

71. and that trend would be??? nt

[Gwendolyn]

74. Well yes we are. And the greater society at large.

i wish I knew if you were a man or woman. :)

[LostInAnomie]

82. Just check...

... my profile.

[seabeyond]

70. oh.... you want me to say it is wrong to murder women cause a person hates them.

k

it is wrong.

feeling better.

you make absolutely no sense. you really need me to state an obvious.... murdering, any gender, is wrong by any gender? yet still you have a post stating no one will admit he murdered out of hate.

weird stuff, you

[Gwendolyn]

75. no stress my dear. whatever you feel like saying. n/t

[reflection]

58. He was a casserole of issues

but yeah, he mostly hated women. That much is clear.

[Kievan Rus]

63. Let's acknowledge what this was -- a hate crime

The tragic shootings in Pittsburgh yesterday are the classic case of a hate crime. The shooter, George Sodrini, despised women and deliberately targeted them in a senseless, random act of violence. What he did was no different from when the racist skinheads dragged James Byrd to death just because he was black, or when Matthew Shephard was murdered just because he was gay, or when the Jewish community center was shot up in Seattle just because the people inside were Jews. Some of the posters in this thread are not really viewing this crime for what it obviously is, a sensless act motivated by hate.

According to the FBI at http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/civilrights/overview.htm, a hate crime is defined as, "a criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part against by an offender's bias against a person's race, sexual orientation, etc." Which is clearly what the crime was motivated by; his hatred of women. His problems with social skills were clearly a part of it, but it was motivated by his raving misogyny, pure and simple.

Fortunately, a poster over at Kos agrees with my assessment.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/8/5/16468/17845.

[Gwendolyn]

72. Yes, that's what it was. It must have been horrifying.

[nashville_brook]

98. ding ding ding -- amazing how difficult it is for some people to see that.

[Odin2005]

166. +1.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

83. Did he hate women? Or did he love them too much?!

Don't you see, Lois? We're alive! Embrace the fear! Dance with me, Lois! Dance the dance of life! <crashes into china cabinet>

[Odin2005]

84. It's the kind of sick, misogynistic reasoning that justifies rape.

This nimrod obviously thought he was entitled to have a woman to fuck and turned deranged when he didn't get what he was "entitled" to. :puke: Ugh, this creep sounds almost exactly like an older version of the monster that raped my friend, attacking vulerable disabled women with psychological issues because they couldn't fight back.

[Marr]

119. Pretty much.

Apparently he thought women should be throwing themselves at him, or that some percentage of them should've been required to accept his advances. Personally, I would doubt that he actually made any advances, and just complained about being alone instead. The neighbors remarked on how extremely anti-social he was.

[Odin2005]

169. Which, again, sounds like the creep that raped my friend.

Monstrous bastards with a sense of entitlement. :puke:

[saltpoint]

89. Let's say that they find among his papers back home indication that

he hated blueberry pie, men, women, tree frogs, kids with freckles, old folks in wheelchairs, baseball, crash diets, beach blankets, and carnivals.

I'm not sure any of that adds up to shooting people in a gym.

[cherokeeprogressive]

91. Someone would make the argument that he hated

those things because of the following reasons:

Obama likes pie.
He hated only black men.
He hated women (white women who dated black men) because of some weird connection he made with white women, black men, and slavery.
Tree frogs can be found in Africa.
He hated black people with freckles.
He only hated wheelchairs that were occupied with black people or women.
"Crash diets" is an oblique reference to the Oscar winning movie "Crash".
Black people don't tend to go to beaches and lie on beach blankets.
He hated carnivals because he hated elephants because they're associated with the African continent.

Surely those things in their totality would prove his Right Wing existence and thus his evil nature.

Now, if he were found to be a registered Democrat, those same people would lament the lack of treatment for the mentally ill under past presidents.

He was a sick person, and persons who are that far gone are beyond classification as Right Wing or Left Wing. SOME PEOLPLE ARE SO SICK THAT THEY DEFY CLASSIFICATION.

May his victims who lost their lives rest in peace, may those who survived make full recoveries without lifelong psychological trauma, and may the witnesses to this tragedy come to a point where they can sleep without dreaming about it.

[saltpoint]

93. From too far a distance the media and some others pretend the details

are in hand when they aren't.

I join you in hoping that the victims of this shooting can find some measure of peace going forward. I can't imagine that it would be easy.

[Klukie]

112. I can see your point but....

I think a broader point is that he simply wanted love and acceptance and rather than blaming himself for his own inability to achieve it, he chose to place his blame on women. I think he hated himself more than anyone. The thought that in order to love others you must love yourself may be very cliche, but it is so for a reason...it's true.

[DailyGrind51]

136. We learn this in childhood, why doesn't it sink in with some people?

Whitney Huston even sang a song about it, yet, let Bobbie Brown beat on her head?

[BlancheSplanchnik]

114. Take the hotties and express your contempt for the ones that turn you off.

Beat or kill the ones that PISS you off.


The motto of so many shallow boys.

[lapislzi]

133. Or WRITE them off as "shrill bitches"

That's what usually happens to me. At a party once, an oaf said to my partner, "geez, she's a mouthy bitch." To which my man (to his infinite credit), replied with a smile, "yeah, isn't she great?"

[seabeyond]

135. i am in texas.

all repugs all the time. my hubby gets a kick out of pushing me front and center and saying,... she doesnt agree with iraq war

and then sittin back and watching

dont ya just love the man that embraces who we are. with joy and glee

[lapislzi]

148. Go girl n/t

[Odin2005]

172. WOOT!

:evilgrin:

[BlancheSplanchnik]

154. Props to your man!

My guy is quiet, doesn't have the gift of quick retorts...

But back when he was a commercial deep diver on oil rigs, he used to lecture his crews when they were talking about their wives/girlfriends as if they (the g.f.) OWED them servitude and hot ass. And this was back in the late 70's early 80's!

really, stopping abuse depends on a deep change in men, one by one.

[lapislzi]

159. I'm fortunate to have an enlightened specimen at the moment

I'm convinced that there's a link between liberal politics/intelligence/incredibly sexy men. (Bill Maher being the noted exception.)

:toast:

[BlancheSplanchnik]

170. back atcha

:)

:pals:

[Dorian Gray]

118. I haven't read much about the story

other than it happened and it's extraordinarily tragic.

I agree with you, though. Whatever his political affiliation is pointless. He was a disturbed man who hated women and wanted to punish them. That, alone, is disturbing enough.

[Marr]

121. Seems like he didn't just hate women-- he hated

pretty women, or pretty young women in particular. Sounds like he thought they should be throwing themselves at him for staying "tan and fit". He sounds like a stew of societal problems-- I think that may be why people are speculating about all kinds of motivations, from racism to politics instead of just looking at the obvious one. Prince Charming thought these women owed him something.

[Doctor_J]

123. And because he was mentally ill and had a gun

fortunately our 2nd amendment is safe, and those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

[DailyGrind51]

127. He hated his inability to form a healthy relationship with women.

He fails to recognize that HE is the common denominator in all his attempts at relationship.

[Klukie]

129. agreed...

see my above post

[omega minimo]

158. Which is why the misogynistic objectification of women, glamorization of sexualized violence and

Which is why the misogynistic objectification of women, glamorization of sexualized violence and infantilized messages, permeating the media and culture continue to be objectionable and dangerous.

[Odin2005]

173. BINGO! We have a winner!

[lapislzi]

175. You nailed it, friend

And woe to the woman who breaks out of the box constructed for her.

[Odin2005]

177. Or us guys who reject misogynistic BS.

I almost got into a fight with some morons at the bar a few months ago because their rape jokes were setting of my friend's PTSD. The bastards told us to "lighten up" and asked "why can't you guys take a joke?" Screw that BS.

[redqueen]

176. I wish I knew why some resisted this notion with so much intensity.

It seems pretty obvious to me.

[omega minimo]

186. Not thinking

with the right head?

Dunno. I'm now wondering if some (I call them) cool men are wary of discussing the broader issues affecting us all, for fear of being attacked themselves as "malebashers."

It's nice when chums chime in. :toast:

[DailyGrind51]

184. It is up to women, then, to stop permitting their objectification in media.

When actresses, singers, and models begin rejecting gigs and contracts requiring their symbolic objectification of women, "business" will have no alternative but to begin portraying women as equal partners in this journey called "life".

[omega minimo]

187. That would help. So would addressing the fascistic consolidation of media. Who calls the shots?

And why is their agenda so heavily dependent on bigotry and misogyny? :think:

Google: Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism

[DailyGrind51]

205. Only when women vocalize and emphatic "No!" and back it up with their $$$, will

corporate media respond. The advertising "gurus" who come up with these insulting images are not nearly as bright as their paychecks make them think they are, without women's dollars, they would be compelled to change, or find other fields of endeavor.

[omega minimo]

207. Wrong. The onus is NOT all on women and the Ad bastards know EXACTLY what they are doing.

[redqueen]

189. The problem is it's a free country.

I don't expect attractive women to stop capitalizing on it any more than I expect men to stop patronizing businesses that specialize in it.

It'd sure be a nice start if reasonable people of both sexes would call out others on sexist bullshit of either stripe.

[omega minimo]

201. Sounds good. Could we practice that here?

:bounce: :bounce:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

199. So you're saying porn, dirty movies, suggestive commercials etc. did it.

Hmm.

[omega minimo]

200. No, you're saying that.

:evilfrown:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

202. No, I'm saying the guy was just fucking nuts.

You're saying the porn made him do it.

[redqueen]

139. Did anyone say otherwise?

I missed that. I have seen people just pointing out that he was a racist and most likely a winger... but I didn't see anyone attempt to blame the murders on those things.

[brentspeak]

150. The real reason was that he was psychotic

[spiritual_gunfighter]

167. Exactly right

The hyper paranoia of some on DU, willing to turn anything into a Freeper conspiracy is laughable.

[provis99]

181. all the male bashing on this thread is remarkable

if a nice guy can't get women, they must be misogynistic losers who just want to kill women? Geez. I'm glad I'm single still.

[seabeyond]

204. the thing is, we had a thread about nice guy complaing. woman after woman stated they MARRIED the

nice guy

poster after poster was on to state that they not only wanted the nice guy, but married the nice guy and they seemed to be the most content in relationship.

really interesting in the whole nice guy finishes last myth.... start a thread

i married a nice guy and would have nothing less.... ever.

[Scout]

206. if that's really what you think women in this thread are saying, then no wonder

you are still single. and likely to remain that way.

:eyes:

[omega minimo]

211. Apparently hasn't mastered the art of

listening.

[Hello_Kitty]

217. Yeah, the "male bashing" club always comes out.

It's so amazing watching them wield their privilege and entitlement over us, while denying they feel privileged and entitled.

[Geek_Girl]

193. He didn't go into jenny craig and kill all the unattractive homely women. He saw women as objects

He couldn't posses them so he killed them.
He was a sexist fuck. He typifies the freeper mentality IMHO.

[Hello_Kitty]

195. And he didn't kill other men either.

Which would actually make more sense, since they were his competition.

[omega minimo]

209. Yeah, that would be like killing REALLY "unattractive homely women...."

:sarcasm:

[omega minimo]

208. Wow.

Sounds like you see women as objects too.

"He didn't go into jenny craig and kill all the unattractive homely women."

Like something a "sexist fuck" would say. :thumbsdown:

[Geek_Girl]

224. I was just making a point

I'm not sexist I'm a female and I'm not athletic, I'm overweight. I didn't mean to offend anyone I was just making a point that this man killed women that he thought beautiful and could not posses. Sorry if I offended anyone. :cry:

[omega minimo]

229. and I'll be you're not

"homely" :pals:

[MellowDem]

223. But why did he hate women?

Actually, he hated a lot of different people. Women were just one group he hated. He also seemed to have hated himself. A lot of time crazy depressed people are like that.

It's not as simple as the way society portrays women that lead him down that road. A lot of the stuff he talked about was the steryotypes of masculinity, things like not having had sex for years being a sign that he was basically a loser at life, the old bigoted notion that black men are testosterone laden virulent sex addict gang bangers (something tells me he got a lot of his ideas from internet porn), his neighbor supposedly "getting some" from an attractive young woman making him jealous. His idea of what it meant to be a man screwed him up royally as well. Seems like it was a lot of different factors and isn't as simple as one thing.

[saltpoint]

225. I don't think you know shit about it.

I don't think you have read that guy's file.

I don't think you are qualified to speak on a file you are unfailiar with.

I don't think you have examined the guy from a behavioral health standpoint.

[dustbunnie]

228. It's pretty clear that he targeted only women.

He wrote in his diary that he wouldn't have considered shooting up his workplace as they had "given" to him through a weekly paycheck, whereas he couldn't get anything at all from women. It's obvious this man had issues and was quite ill, probably psychotic, according to the experts who've done the quick and dirty analysis for news outlets. But he did focus those personal issues on women, particularly after his church threw him out for stalking one. His political leanings didn't enter into it at all. I agree that some of the other threads are unfairly labeling all men though, if that's your point.

[GodlyDemocrat]

230. You may be correct, but I think this is too simplistic of a statement

I believe the shooter definitely desired companionship and love but did not have the proper social/relational skills to have a healthy relationship. This clearly is a case of mental illness, in my opinion, as opposed to some misogynist going on a rampage. This case is very sad and tragic. The shooter did not appear to be ugly or unfit and by all accounts seemed financially secure and he definitely wanted to be loved, but didn't know how to get that love.