I hate this picture

[Renew Deal]

I know the result was positive for the prisoners, but I hate the way this looks and I hate what it implies.

[madaboutharry]

1. What does it imply?

This seems routine to me. The men had a meeting and Pres. Clinton got his way.

[Renew Deal]

12. That bullying and hostage taking is an effective method of self promotion for North Korea

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renew Deal]

57. Welcome to DU!!!

:hi:

The picture is being used by Kim as propaganda to legitimize himself (partly in his own eye's). He's going to tell his people how he was able to get a former president to capitulate, etc, etc.

I think the thing that's being missed by many is that this wasn't a matter of sitting down with those we disagree with. This was a hostage taking and having Clinton show up was the ransom.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fla Dem]

84. So who cares what he tells his people. He tells them Sh*t all the time.

What it tells us and the sane world is when we see an injustice, we are not too proud to diplomatically address it. Unlike the bluster, bullying and chest thumping of the last 8 years that got us absolutely nothing, nada, zero.

[rustydog]

72. Or, it implies diplomacy works

[madokie]

92. Only to a fool would it not

[Winterblues]

81. A country's leader talks with a Private Citizen of great Stature.

Remember Clinton is not in Government.....He is a Private Citizen which the very great majority of the world adores and respects. It is a plus-plus for both the USA and North Korea.

[Bluerthanblue]

88. ... hostage taking?

maybe I'm wrong, but the women didn't enter N.Korea legally did they?

[Igel]

91. It's a question.

The assumption has been 'no', because the opposite assumption gets you no place. It "tends not to edification", so to speak.

At the time it was unclear, and it's still unclear: The border's not clearly marked (it's a stream, and might move, but in any event the streambed was dry). People cross it fairly often, and that include PRNK guards because, well, it's not clearly marked. Adding to the confusion is that there's a large Korean community adjacent to the northern border--some refugees from the current regime, some from previous regimes, some because the border is a political, not an ethnic, demarcation.

[Renew Deal]

24. BTW, the other thing it implies is that the US government will go to great lengths to protect

her citizens. We got that from the pirate story too. The concept of mobilizing the military for one private citizen wasn't missed.

[Richardo]

2. Which is what?

:shrug: Not seeing anything overtly sinister here, except for Kim himself.

[oldtime dfl_er]

3. There's nothing implicit in that photo

except that President Bill Clinton undertook a mission of mercy.

[Captain Hilts]

7. It places them on an even level. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and do it.

[vadawg]

10. my concern is what did we give the beloved dear leader in exchange

and what it will cost us down the road, as nice as it is to get the release of the press, i wonder if there is a price to pay..

[Renew Deal]

14. I have to wonder if Clinton would have gone over for someone not related to a famous person

or working for Al Gore.

[Arkansas Granny]

60. I think it gave dear leader "face". He was able to proceed with the negotiations

with an important person who has worldwide standing. There may have been more to it than that, but I think it was mostly to stoke his ego.

[polmaven]

61. The release of the press?

Not the release of two Americn citizens?

How cynical is that?

[vadawg]

69. yeah you think if it was just two run of the mill americans the former pres would be there

if so, why dosent he just swing by iran today as they are holding three americans at the moment for similar charges...

[polmaven]

83. Well, that is the next place,

isn't it? He didn't "just swing by"....President Gore had some effort as well....And ye...I think if it was ANY American, this would have take place.

[devilgrrl]

4. Are you suggesting that it will be used like this?

Not even close...

[zbdent]

13. the funny thing is ...

in the OP's pic, the American ain't smiling ... in your pic, Rummy's gladly shaking hands, and is really sucking up to the man who only weeks before, had "gassed his own people" ...

[Renew Deal]

15. Interesting point

And yes, it could.

[devilgrrl]

85. Oh yeah? Where?

Free Republic?

[hlthe2b]

5. No way.. Look at the body language...

Clinton is definitely in control--relaxed hands but firmly assertive. KJI is tense as he can be and even smaller than his stature would suggest.

[Captain Hilts]

8. Bubba's wearing his game face, all right. nt

[Renew Deal]

16. Is he really "in control?"

Clinton is there because he was forced to be by NK.

[hlthe2b]

34. Clinton wasn't forced to do anything...

He is acting as a statesman... Clinton has met with all kinds of people in his career and during his humanitarian acitvities. He is accustomed to speaking with both the "good" and the powerful "evil." Just because it has been so long since you've seen one, surely you can recognize the signs. I know the Faux News crowd will never be able to appreciate diplomacy, but surely you can. :shrug:

[Autumn]

6. I like it. I see a BIG man and

a little tiny man. One of them is a GREAT man .

[H2O Man]

9. Right.

Sitting down and talking with one's enemies should be discouraged. The implications are there.

[Renew Deal]

19. Great way to miss the point.

How did this picture come about? Did it come from two sides coming to the table equally or did it come from one side bullying the other?

[H2O Man]

20. Nope.

I'm not the one who is missing the point.

[Renew Deal]

22. Why is Clinton there?

[H2O Man]

25. If you had to

make a list of possibilities, what might you come up with?

[Renew Deal]

29. I asked you first...

Why is he there?

[H2O Man]

37. I asked you second.

[Renew Deal]

39. I'm surprised

I thought better of you.

[H2O Man]

41. I'm not surprised.

Still, I like you just fine, even if we have a difference of opinion. Perhaps this and your last post highlight that difference.

[Bluerthanblue]

89. silly- you H2O Man-

you believe actually talking to each other can settle differences.

:evilgrin:

"Temper is a weapon that we hold by the blade".(j.m.barrie)

[polmaven]

65. Now THERE'S

an adult response......!

[Vickers]

11. I don't know what you *think* it implies, but I bet you're wrong.

:rofl:

Mainly what it shows me is that Kim shops at Sears.

[City Lights]

17. To me it implies that Kim Jong Il really is ill.

He looks horrible.

[Renew Deal]

21. He doesn't look ill to me

He does look aged. He's 68.

[City Lights]

27. He looks much thinner to me.

:shrug:

[doc03]

18. That's what they say at Faux. That was the talking

points yesterday, "What did we give up for their release". Hannity was just so concerned about this his slanted head was ready to explode. Leave it to the wing-nuts to make a positive into a negative every time. Clinton is a Democrat therefore it has to be bad. If a Republican would have been involved with the release it would be called a great diplomatic breakthrough.

[DefenseLawyer]

23. Wimps!

We should have had no contact with the North Koreans, called them names, publicly demanded demanded the release of the journalists with 24 hours and threatened to nuke them if they didn't comply. Didn't 8 years of successful Bush diplomacy teach these clowns anything? Geez.

[Renew Deal]

28. Is it really that black and white?

Could we have gotten the prisoners back without Clinton visiting? And I have to wonder if it's worth "legitimizing" Kig Jong Il in this way? I know it is to the families. I also know it is in a practical sense. But I hate that NK could force the US into this position. It's a control issue.

[DefenseLawyer]

38. Your view is shared by neocon chickenhawk cowboys everywhere.

If you've spent much time on the playground or in a bar, you know that the guy who can and will kick your ass is rarely the guy who talks about kicking your ass. Tough talk is cheap and it's not a sign of strength, it's a sign of weakness.

[Renew Deal]

47. Like I care

I've thought about the "it's not a sign of strength, it's a sign of weakness" idea and of course you're right. But we shouldn't pretent this was a "negotiation" or a "diplomatic mission." It was a hostage taking by the North Koreans and part of the ransom was Clinton showing up for a photo shoot.

[newspeak]

79. I guess you don't remember when

north and south Korea walked together at the Olympics. I remember thinking this may be a new beginning for dialogue and diplomacy between the two countries. After all, there are relatives on both sides. Clinton made that happen. *, with all his strutting and bully talk destroyed that diplomacy. Do you remember the articles in the newspapers after * visited the president of South Korea and humiliated him for attempting to further that diplomacy with N. Korea? Kim Jong has respect for Clinton-he also is a big western movie fan, especially John Wayne. All is not what it seems. I believe that Kim Jong wants that diplomacy, wants the attention from the West. Being a strutting bully does nothing to mend the rift between North and South Korea-I'm talking about the "faux" cowboy * and the "wanna be cowboy" Kim.

[Enrique]

26. we should worry less about images

imo.

[SoCalDem]

30. To me, it implies

That Kim Jon Il is a sick man, on his way out, and that the US is not above negotiating, instead of the endless Bushian Axis of Evil braggadocio.

Like it or not, N.Korea EXISTS. Their leader is nuts, as are MANY leaders (we had one for 8 long years).

You cannot go all "Parshall", and pretend they do not exist.

The longer they held americans, the stronger their "hand" became.

This might be the moment in time, when they can finally start walking back toward the light.

[Renew Deal]

33. It's not so much the "negotiation"

I wonder if we paid the right price.

[hlthe2b]

40. Yes.. it is always better that we stomp our big feet, DEMAND

compliance and scream bloody murder (when the coffins of our dead) come back to us.

Never negotiate, never talk, never meet, never, never, never. Even if that means losing, losing, losing, losing in the end.

[Chorophyll]

31. Oh FFS...

Can we not enjoy a positive outcome for five minutes around here?

[Renew Deal]

36. We did.

5 minutes are up

[hlthe2b]

45. Your concern is duly noted

After all, it could only be a coincidence that you so closely mirror the Faux news/neocon point of view.

[Renew Deal]

48. Yes, a freak coincidence

And of course you would know. Obviously you busily watch them. BTW, what's the latest on Obama's birth certificate?

[hlthe2b]

51. LOLOLOL

feeble, Renew, very very feeble

[Renew Deal]

52. Thanks

:D

I was just teasing you. I know you're not a birther...(I think).

[Joanne98]

32. I hope Clinton ask him what illness he has.

Maybe we can exchange healthcare for nukes.

[NNN0LHI]

35. You are a fool

What do you think the US would have done had we found a couple of North Korean citizens crossing our border after 9/11?

They would have been shipped right off to Gitmo and tortured until they admitted to being terrorists.

They would likely still be there.

Don

[seabeyond]

42. it is, what it is. called diplomacy. the swaggering, manly man, gonna kick shit doesnt work

diplomacy does.

[hlthe2b]

43. the swaggering approach is not "manly" it is a childish bluff

Just because testosterone- driven Bush* followers become orgasmic when they see it, does not change this. It is a childish response without consideration of consequences.

[seabeyond]

46. bullying. i live in panhandle of texas. i certainly see it, know it, ....

i couldnt agree with you more. you dont know how many of these manly men i challenge about whether or not it is really being a man.... or some dude that has been conditioned on what a man is.

[Renew Deal]

50. Let's use your example of bullying.

Who's bullying whom in this instance?

[hlthe2b]

54. Who is standing UP to the bully to ensure their own desired

result? Children expect everything to be immediate. Diplomacy is a chess game and played over the long term and over multiple moves. It is mature response--something those on the right who just want to erupt in tantrum and make demands that will never be honored, can not understand.

[Renew Deal]

56. I don't think we "stood up" to it in this case.

But we did ensure our best interest in this case. The two questions that I keep coming to is:

Was it worth it?
What's next?

[hlthe2b]

59. Patience, grasshopper.... Chess game...

Petulant bullying neocons would have had us either dropping bombs on Pyongyang or to ignore KJI until he fully weaponizes his nuclear wet dreams (with the two women journalists left to languish or die in North Korean work camps) .... Now, would THAT have been in our best interest?

[seabeyond]

66. i dont agree. i think the mentality that one has to kick ass, not reason, have the power over

another in order to "win" is exactly the childish mentality that the other poster mentioned. it is really weak. it is the non thinking manner of winning. and almost never works.

[seabeyond]

63. neither. nt

[hlthe2b]

73. panhandle of Texas...I'll bet you do see that attitude constantly...

Last I saw, though, Texas is looking like a transitional state--no longer strongly Red... There is hope...

[seabeyond]

76. lol lol.... lol again. except in teh panhandle. yes, there is a transition going

but not gonna happen here.

we could have done a lot more with kerry too, in 2004. there was a lot of theft of vote and was ignored. and that was without any effort from kerry or dems to come to texas.

there is hope

[Renew Deal]

49. It's not "diplomacy." It's ransom for hostage taking.

The ransom was the photo op. Imprisoning these ladies was hardly "diplomatic."

[seabeyond]

67. it is "dealing with a situation". successfully. nt

[seabeyond]

74. you know why we have spent billions, lost lives in the iraq war. cause bush refuse to use diplomacy

with sadam.

because... what would it look like. he caved. he wasnt all empowered. this fake macho male bullshit. cause he compromised.

sadam said in oct give me so much money, i will go away, and tell my people to stand down.

not even a consideration.

and this is what we get

[lamp_shade]

44. Reminds me of this....

Just switch their positions and hand Bill a pitchfork.

[Minimus]

53. Well, just try not to look at it then.

[lunatica]

58. To me it implies people who are as opposed to each other as can be

and yet they're sitting for an official photograph showing that diplomacy is necessary in order to deal with fundamental differences.

Diplomacy is for these occasions. It isn't as necessary when you sit with allies and friends but it is when you sit with enemies. The problem with the Belligerent Right is they think diplomacy is all sweet flowers and kissy kissy. They're wrong. Diplomacy can be hard bargaining and passing on messages of dire alternatives. They don't get it.

[Iggo]

62. Clinton called up Kimmy and said...

.."I'm coming for our women. You want a photo-op, you got it. But I'm coming for our women."

Clinton is THE MAN!!!!

[kentuck]

64. I would guess that Hillary pulled this off...

The little weasel from N. Korea wants credibility. He did not want to speak with a mere "representative", like the Secretary of State. He wanted to talk with the President. Barack Obama was not available. But the Big Dog was...

[WI_DEM]

70. Yes, that is what it's about. Hillary made a tacit apology, they (NK) demanded Bill

and President Obama approved it but on condition that Bill doesn't negotiate. It was all decided prior to Clinton going over there--if Bill went they would allow the journalists to leave. It all worked out fine.

[endarkenment]

71. Today is find the cloud in the silver lining day at DU!

:wtf:

[Renew Deal]

77. That's everyday.

:D

[Freddie Stubbs]

75. It does show that we Americans have much better fashion sense

[Serial Mom]

78. You would still find fault if we solved world hunger...

If you know anything about our country, back door diplomacy works and has for decades!

Pictures don't imply anything otherwise the pictures Colin Powell showed at the U.N. would have PROVED there were mobile bio-weapons labs roaming throughout Iraq! People who took the implication of those images meaning something real were fooled. Don't be fooled again!

[mwooldri]

80. Bottom line guys, talking works.

Worked in Northern Ireland. Margaret Thatcher and John Major escalated the situation, possibly understandably since the IRA actually tried to kill Maggie. Took Blair and his lot to get them to negotiate. When you have one side effectively calling the other the "bearded brother of Beelzebub" it's hard to get them talking.

Here's the memo guys: Speak softly and carry a big stick. But keep talking.

[LanternWaste]

82. I think you confuse the word "infer" with the word "imply"...

I think you confuse the word "infer" with the word "imply"...

[LostInAnomie]

86. Lil' Kim looks like a scared child.

Clinton looks like a man who knows he owns the room.

[Bluerthanblue]

87. we teach our children to "use your words!" but when it comes

to demonstrating that wisdom, we use military means or threats?

You may see this picture as a sign of some kind of ...'weakness'- I see it as an example of REAL STRENGTH- Of a wisdom that doesn't need to walk around all puffed up and arrogant, claiming that "we don't negotiate" with "________"... (especially when both women DID enter the country illegally) But a self assured, healthy realization that sometimes a genuine acknowledgment of being wrong (which the journalists were) and an appeal for clemency WORKS.

and you have a problem with that?


:shrug:

[SidneyCarton]

90. From the look on Bill's face, he wasn't all that thrilled about it himself.

Greatness demands grace in doing that which is often personally unsavory. It recognizes that we cannot always control how others will view us, but that in order to achieve the laudable goals, at times we must be macchivellian and do things that frankly suck. The small sacrifice that former President Clinton made in that photo, as well as our own nation, is nothing in comparison to the children who got their mothers back today. Kim's a dead man, he doesn't know it yet, but as assuredly as our days are numbered, his are too, and so are his regime's.

[gkhouston]

93. It doesn't bother me at all. Clinton looks completely composed. Kim Jong Il

looks like the one who's just bitten a wasp.

[BlooInBloo]

94. I don't. That's why Clinton was chosen over Kerry. Clinton was expendable...

as a private citizen, this picture means exactly NOTHING.

[Ian David]

95. You can see Bill Clinton blinking the Korean word for "Douchebag" in Morse code. n/t