Flame if you must. RE: Imus

[Texasgal]

And YES for you naysayers... I am actually capable of talking/thinking about several different stories/issues and real things happening... and so can ALOT of other DU'ers. We can actually do TWO things and once! :sarcasm:

The next:

If you called someone a ni**er or a nappy head headed HO at your job...what would happen?

I'd be FIRED on the spot! I work as an RN. There is ZERO tolerance for this kinda crap in my line of work.

So, what would happen TO YOU personally if you were to say something like this? Would YOU be fired? Or would you be forced to make some lame assed apology and get away with it?

[BOSSHOG]

1. Well if you put it in rap lyrics, sales would go up

[Deja Q]

2. You mean rappers use it? Like Vanilla Ice and M&M?

:wow:

[BOSSHOG]

6. I'm observing selective enforcement and outrage

If Imus shouldn't, and he shouldn't, then who should?

[Deja Q]

11. I'd say nobody. After all,

I am told that self-depreciation is wrong...

[ShortnFiery]

12. Imus was specific ... he called these particular women "nappy headed hos"

These women are NOT celebrities, but college athletes who do not have the power to respond in kind.

That is the difference and it is significant.

[Deja Q]

17. I don't think there is a context where such an epithet is tolerable.

It's demeaning through and through. Even individual words, such as "ho", are demeaning through and through.

Unless it's in the context of "How dare you call me a ho!", there is no context where it is allowed. That's what causes the question "How dare you call me a ho!" to be asked in the first place.

[ShortnFiery]

21. I concur. Specific or not, that language is hurtful and not called for in any CIVIL venue. n/t

[Texasgal]

24. Word splitting..

It matters NOT.

[ShortnFiery]

33. Oh, nevermind. :-) n/t

[LiberalHeart]

70. No, it matters.

It's the difference between "I saw a nappy-headed ho walking down the street" and "I saw that nappy-headed ho named LiberalHeart walking down the street."

The first comment is ignorant and reflects badly on the speaker. The second one is all that -- plus hurtful and insulting to a specific person. Neither is acceptable, but the second one is worse than the first.

[BOSSHOG]

18. Agreed, they are college athletes

but are all racially denigrating remarks about females in rap songs about "celebrities?" And I believe the Team Members and their Coach responded in kind quite nicely today. The first third of NBC News tonight was about the incident.

[ShortnFiery]

30. Agreed. But it was Imus who was specific and NBC needs to fire him.

This issue will NOT go away until Imus is off of the air.

This issue brings up all sorts of horrific experiences I had in the late 70s within the Army as they were integrating women from the WACs. Now my little league white woman officer experience is probably minor in comparison to some of the covert racism women of color must tolerate within the business world.

Both sexism and racism are "alive and well" in the USA. However, it has become covert. That's why when someone like Imus feels free to OPENLY disrespect specific African American women, all hell breaks loose because these prejudices have NOT been resolved. It's amazing that IMUS didn't catch himself, because many people are probably more sexist and racist than IMUS, but they have more self control to keep their prejudices covert. ;)

[BOSSHOG]

35. You raise an interesting point

Why would Imus feel that it would be okay to OPENLY disprespect black women? Is it because he listens to rap music? Is it because when such lyrics are found in rap music no one is held to account? Is that why Imus so bluntly said what he did?

Thank you for your service. My Wife served in the enlisted ranks in the Navy in the 70's. A lonely and challenging time indeed for women in uniform.

[ShortnFiery]

44. Thank you. IMO, I think that side kick Bernard brings out the worst in Imus.

However, it's amazing that he would even utter such words. :wow: AS IF, the preceding comments implying that they all had numerous tattoos wasn't borderline enough with disrespect. It falls back on the old notion that only "lesbians" could be good athletes. I was an excellent long distant runner in my youth but even my parents were worried that I would hurt "my female organs" or become "too butch" by associating with other women athletes.

I love my folks but they had those hard wired prejudices. One was that femininity was NOT associated with athletics. I think Imus is old enough to harbor such sentiments. I don't know for sure, but I do believe that it "tweaked" these young women's parents into justifiable outrage. :shrug:

Kudos back to your wife for her Navy service. Oh yes, IMO, serving in the Active Duty military as a women in the 70s was a true challenge (understated). ;) :hi:

[LisaL]

84. So, in your opinion, it would be o'key to insult all women?

But just not specific ones? If he said "I think all women are hos"-that would have been fine?

[LiberalHeart]

28. Yes. I've posted the same sentiment on two sites today --

-- and I'm surprised people don't seem to get that about this situation. It's why the argument that the same or worse appears in rap music has no application in this situation. Rap isn't aimed at specific people with real lives and reputations. I wonder how many of Imus's defenders would react with understanding if they were walking down the street and a passerby looked at their daughter and called her a whore.

[Neshanic]

51. What if he said "nappy headed fags?" Is that a group or a person specifically?

[malaise]

95. BIngo

many are missing this significant point.

[Skip Intro]

14. Now there's a question. n/t

[Texasgal]

15. Question:

How would YOU like it if I was your nurse, and your family was African American... and I just came in one morning and non-cholantly said " GOod morning Ni**ER? Would you call for my banishiment?

[BOSSHOG]

32. If you shouldn't, who should?

If calling me a n%%^&r while I'm lying in a hospital bed is wrong, which I agree it would be wrong, why is it okay to use that word in music? If Imus should be punished, or shot, or banished to Siberia for saying what he said, shouldn't everybody who uses that language receive a similar fate?

[Texasgal]

57. who do you think listens to Imus's show?

A bunch o black rappers and fans?

[BOSSHOG]

58. I have no idea who listens to Imus' show

but by the reaction from his remarks it must be a lot of people. Now, answer my question.

[Texasgal]

62. I already did.

n/t

[Divernan]

47. Imus broadcast his slurs on the public airwaves. Don't forget

that the FCC licenses all broadcasters. The principle is that the airwaves belong to the public and in exchange for profiting from use of the public airwaves, broadcasters have to meet certain standards - not only as to obscene content, but as to the amount of advertising time per hour. That's why, when their licenses are up for renewal, there are periods of public comment for any complaints from listeners. There were censors on live broadcasts and certain words and phrases were bleeped out via a few second delay. This would of course apply to lyrics of music - whether recorded or live, as well as shock-jocks or other's comments . Over the years, the standards have been progressively lowered and clearly have been too gutted. Time for the pendulum to swing back a bit. I agree the standards should apply to all material being broadcast, including racist, sexist, pro-crime words and phrases of music lyrics, as well as Imus's foul statements. I also think it's unrealistic to expect to clean up the whole mess at once, and I approve of banning Imus from the airwaves as the warning shot across the bow, so to speak.

[Texasgal]

3. Perhaps this is true.

I would be fired... however.

[alcibiades_mystery]

43. When you are fired, you should complain that rap songs do it too

And therefore it should be acceptable in the workplace. You know, like the last time I was blasting Fuck Da Police at the office. Now all the damn PC nutso's have forced me to remove Ice Cube's entire oeuvre from my office playlist - or, more insidiously, have asked me to use headphones when I listen to all that rap misogyny at the office. Apparently, the local supermarket has also decided to stop playing the best of the Ghetto Boys over the supermarket sound system, ostensibly because some PC-minded crypto-fascist didn't like all the homophobia! Chalk another victory up for the Nanny state. Never mind that, though. I was at one of those nice new coffee shops the other day, and they were playing some great old skool Mobb Deep joints. Nothing beats noddin' your head to "Shook Ones Part2" when you're ordering your caramel latte (for all my killahs and my hundred dollah billahs...you gnaw mean)!

:rofl:

[Moochy]

67. Stuck off the realness

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ndo37LMzmU

[alcibiades_mystery]

68. We be tha infamous

Ya hearda us
Official Queensbridge murderahs...

:-)

[Moochy]

73. Rock you in the face stab your brain with your nose bone

Oh and here is a link to anyone who wants to buy that song on iTunes. That makes up for linking to the copyright free youtubes video upthread... :D

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playlistId=396207&s=143441&i=396183

[alcibiades_mystery]

79. Y'all can't copyright no beats, man

Yo Chuck is they crazy, man?

Mail from the courts and jail
Claims I stole the beats that I rail...

[alcibiades_mystery]

39. When Stephen King writes about murder....

That's kinda like my boss telling a colleague that he would murder her if he could. Equal schmequal.

That many here don't understand that rap is a varied ARTISTIC form is clear enough. They use it as a stand in for their own racist apologetics. Fine. The failure may be located in the fact that rap's artistry consists of the production (which is to say, illusion) of authenticity, whereas nobody mistakes the Stephen King novel for anything other than a novel, an imaginative construction. Needless to say, few of the "rap does it too" apologists are able to cite a lyric in context, and most seem to despise the form tout court, regardless of content. Fine. But why anyone else should assent to such arguments is a mystery. Or maybe not so much a mystery.

[BOSSHOG]

45. Is not Imus using a "varied artistic form?"

And we get to the bottom line. Some can and some can't use that language? I ask again, if Imus should not and I think he should not, then who should? If the goal is to banish such language from our conversation, can that goal be achieved when only part of the population is banished from using such language? Now thats a mystery!

[alcibiades_mystery]

63. Yes, some CAN and some CAN'T

I know this drives white folks crazy.

Black folks CAN, and white folks CAN'T. That's the way things work. Language means in context, and part of the context for the way things mean is the history of racial oppression in America and the survival mechanisms developed by the oppressed groups to hack those experiences. Why people pretend not to understand this is the real mystery.

One black guy says to another black guy, in a room full of black people: "Hurry up, niggah." What's going to happen? Not much.
A white guy says to a black guy in a room full of black people: "Hurry up, niggah!" What's going to happen? A lot.

That's the basic demonstration of the principle: context changes meaning, and history and identity invest context.

I know. It's not fair. Boo hoo. They have all the fun, shouting niggah in crowded rooms where you're not allowed to. Quelle dommage. Neither is structural inequality at the level of economic conditions fair. While our two black guys were probably systematically excluded from economic and social opportunity, you're only excluded from activity in the symbolic realm (the use of particular kind of language). You have to deal with that. You have to grow up and deal with the reality of how context changes the meaning of words.

Now, is homophobia and misogyny free from criticism in art? No. Neither is racism. (A black guy using the term niggah, however, is not racism. A white guy using it is racism. Sorry. You have to eat that. Eminem knows that, as he's never used the term in any of his songs.) There is a lively debate about these very points within the black community and the hip hop community more generally.

But you mistake the goal. The goal is not to banish the language. The goal is to end systematic racism. And homophobia, and misogyny. If iyt remains at the level of the symbolic, it's always mystified. The problem, of course, is that the symbolic affects the real. You treat it at the level of the symbolic BECAUSE the symbolic affects the real.

[americanstranger]

74. Great post.

You nailed it.

- as

[Neshanic]

53. Please do not trot out hate lyrics as art. It's old and tired and just plain crap.

[alcibiades_mystery]

64. Really?

Show me.

[Neshanic]

82. Show you what? Pie charts or Powerpoint?

[alcibiades_mystery]

88. Any evidence would do

Unless you don't believe in that sort of thing, and prefer bald assertion to sustained argumentation?

[DefenseLawyer]

46. Johnny Cash was never in prison

and he never shot anyone, much less that poor bastard in Reno, just to "watch him die". You might find the expression is certain kinds of music offensive, but this comparison of a man, speaking in his own voice, speaking about the issues of the day and expressions in music, or a stage play or a movie, is absurd.

[americanstranger]

59. Hear, hear.

You just pointed out the flaw in the whole shock jock/hip hop comparison.

And anyone who thinks that hip hop artists 'get away with' using violent or misogynistic imagery in their songs shows how little they know about the music and the reaction to it.

- as

[qanda]

80. I don't listen to, buy or even come in contact with rap music

And I'm a black woman. However, I do pay to have MSNBC and don't expect to hear black women referred to as nappy-headed hos on a news channel. If you think what Imus did is okay because somebody else did it first then you are sadly mistaken. Why do black women have to be victimized by this type of language while people stand around and pass the buck about whose fault it is?

[LisaL]

4. I am not in the entertainment business.

I don't think it's a fair thing to compare your regular 9-5 job to that of someone in the entertainment business. There are a lot of things those in the entertainment business do that would not be acceptable in your normal world.
Actors, singers, shock jokes-could you do any of the things they do? What Howard Stern tells to women on his show-telling them to undress and such? Who at 9-5 job can get away with it?

[Moochy]

13. ONE RULE FOR ALL

REDUCTIO AD ABSURDUM!!

FIRE THE RAPPERS!

[WorseBeforeBetter]

29. Women go on Howard's show willingly...

grasping for some sort of celebrity, no matter how tawdry. The Rutgers women did nothing to deserve what Imus unleashed on them.

[LisaL]

34. My point is-try to do it at your job and see how far you would get.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

66. Sensitivity training and probation is my guess.

But I'm not a highly paid commentator using public airwaves to hurl insults at anyone (Imus's bio refers to it as "biting humor"). I'm so unbelievably sick of this bad behavior being rewarded, whether it's Imus, Coulter, Limpballs, Savage, etc. Polls show that Americans are overwhelmingly in agreement that our society has become too crass/rude--this is a perfect example. And a good example of Corporate Media keeping the masses divided. Everyone is constantly pitted against everyone else--it's really sad to watch. 2007 and we're all still phuckin' pawns.

[LisaL]

83. If you told your co-worker to take her clothes off, so you can

spank her with a paddle, they would send you to sensitivity training? Where do you work?

[Olney Blue]

5. In my work place, you would be forced to take sensitivity training and

given a second chance.

[nedbal]

16. same here.... then you get promoted.... it's happened here

[Texasgal]

27. Wait...lemme get this straight

Either YOU or someone at your job use a racial slur and was promoted?

[nedbal]

90. yep - they are not promoted due to the slur, but it didn't affect their promotion.

[Skittles]

7. absolutely I would be fired

and rightfully so

[Catherine Vincent]

8. Imus says his show is a comedy so I guess that makes everything A-OK.

[sendero]

9. I never contemplate such things...

.. because it would never occur to me to say such a thing.

[Berry Cool]

10. Thanks for pointing out that some of us CAN discuss several things at once.

And I'd be fired for sure. And I have no taste for entertainers who say such things either...ANY of them. Imus is just the start.

[Texasgal]

20. THANK YOU!

IT seems all these bitchers can't seem to WRAP around their TINY heads that we can actually FOLLOW many different stories at once!!!

[NormanYorkstein]

Yep - exactly, FIRED on the spot

So why should Imus get away with it?

[Taverner]

19. WTF? Are people actually defending Imus

I thought that was pretty clear cut - Imus made a racist, sexist, bigoted and downright DUMBASS remark - one that should get him fired and it looks like that might happen.

Are some people defending what Imus said???

[Texasgal]

22. Oh yeah TAV...

and also we cannot POSSIBLY talk about two or three stories at once! :sarcasm:

DU really freaks me out sometimes!

[Moochy]

23. But what about the rappers

They are just like imus apparently. Maybe people making this argument categorize all people showing up on the magical cube in their living room as "TV PEOPLE"

So yes, Rappers who use the n-word should all be fired according to the bigots defending Imus. "double standard" blah blah freep freep.

Yes, even here

FIRE THE RAPPERS!

[donco6]

71. Oh yeah.

All over the place. It's really pathetic.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

25. in my old job, I'd be cheered.

because they were a bunch of closed minded folks who made believe that they were open minded.

[XemaSab]

26. I'd be out so fast your head would spin

It takes a LOT to get fired from my office, but that might just do it.

[napi21]

31. You probably won't get flamed, but I most likely will. I would like to know

why it's OK for rappers to record almost the same words that Imus said, and it's OK, but Imus should be fired?

Call me stupid or sheltered, but the only place I've ever heard the word Ho is in rap music. I don't think I ever heard anyone say the nappi word, and when I heard it from Imus, I was guessing what he meant...and yes my guess was right.

I think Imus was wrong saying what he said on air and in public, but I also never listen to him because I just never liked the way he talks about anyone.

WHY is is OK to say the same things he said, and worse, in a rap song,but it's "fire the sucker" when Imus says the same thing?

I'm really not looking for a flame war. I really don't understand. Is it becaue he's white? Could a black comediansay it and it would be OK?

[ShortnFiery]

36. Simply because "the rappers" didn't SPECIFICALLY insult a particular group of women

as Imus did. That's the BIG DIFFERENCE: Imus made his insult specifically to the Rutger's Womens Basketball team members. UNSAT. :thumbsdown:

[msongs]

40. oh that's better, they just apply that language to ALL women. nt

[ShortnFiery]

50. No, it's not better, but it can NOT viably be used to lessen the impact of Imus's insults. n/t

[Neshanic]

55. See gang? That's the key. Do not be specific. Rappers say women, not women in a particular group.

say a basketball team or sewing circle.

Remeber that when writing your lyrics about killing fags, and whore women.

[LisaL]

85. Oh great. So insulting all women would be just fine and dandy?

Just don't single out any particular group?

[Texasgal]

37. I honestly cannot answer that

I have no idea why "rap" music is way. I will say however, that I do not agree with it.

I do know, that may black activists have spoke out against "rap" and the racial undertones.

All I know is that if I said something racially insensitive at my job I would be canned ON THE SPOT. No questions asked.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

38. Because no "rappers" have a three hour

radio show simulcast on a national news network? Don Imus and his crew of cave dwellers can say or think whatever they want. They have no right to earn a living saying these things on our airwaves.


"But the rappers do it too!" Is that like a new talking point? I've seem it everywhere since this started. Love how there are white people who always play the "rapper" card when a fellow white person says something racist. "You mean I can't say the word N****? But, but they call each other that all the time!"

[BOSSHOG]

41. I recall a recent song by Tim McGraw

"I remember when a Ho was a Hoe." Don't you find your last paragraph extremely intriguing? I ask the simple question, if Imus should not say such things (and I don't think he should) then who should say those things? And if Imus should be sanctioned for saying such, then shouldn't everyone who uses such language?

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

49. I think it's like your family.

I can make fun, or talk bad about my brother, but nobody outside the family. That and a lot of those lyrics that people cite need to be taken in a certain "context". As I said Imus has, or had a forum everyday on our airwaves. Hip Hop stations can pick and choose what they include on their play-lists. In another thread I saw "N.W.A, and an Ice T references. In the late '80's, early '90's those artists did not get ANY airplay. They sold records, but P.D didn't play their tracks. In fact many stations wouldn't touch them with a 12 foot pole.

[donco6]

75. I think so, yes. eom

[americanstranger]

42. Rappers are not working without consequence.

Ludacris lost a commercial deal with Pepsi, due to Bill O'Reilly making noise about his lyrics.

GLAAD has gone after Eminem numerous times for homophobia.

Even way back in the day, Public Enemy was lambasted for their endorsement of Louis Farrakhan.

Sharpton and Jesse Jackson often protest hip hop lyrics, as do many other black leaders.

Everybody acts like hip hop artists get away with this, but they don't. It's a red herring, IMHO.

- as

[napi21]

87. I hadn't heard of the complaints you mentioned. Maybe the Imus thing

just made more headlinesthan those you mentioned.

I'm not black, and although I find a few rap songsgood to listen to, Ihate the onesthat use the female demeaning lyrics and won't listen beyonethat one line.

I guess all this hoopla about what Imus said is mostly because he's a tv personality. I'm actually glad to hear the rappers suffered a bit too. Even with free speach, there still are some things that just shouldn't be said.

[donco6]

72. I can't stand rappers either.

Point me to their employer and I'll fight to fire them, too.

[durrrty libby]

48. See, here's the difference..You are not a "shock jock"

God people are dense!

[ShortnFiery]

54. Imus is not a "shock jock" when he claims to have the upper crust of the political elite

on his show. There should justifiably be some requirement for decorum when Presidential candidates and members of Congress regularly appear on his show.

No, if he wants to truly be a comedy show and himself, a shock jock, then these high level political people should NOT appear on his shows in the future.

[durrrty libby]

61. He's not a nurse either, and yes his reputation, at one time,

rivaled Howard Stern.

So-called high level people appear anywhere they can reach an audience

It is for them to decide, not you.
If you don't like where they appear, shut the damn TV off

[ShortnFiery]

76. No, it's more important than that, he's called Gwen Eiffel (esteemed Journalist)

now on PBS, "the cleaning lady at the New York Times."

If this is not a CLEAR indication of sexism and racism, I don't know what is.

You can call this fluff because you have not ever experienced either type of prejudice or discrimination.

However, the young women athletes and parents at Rutgers will carry this insult around with them as a scar on what should have been a celebratory time for them and their 2nd place Basketball team's outstanding season. Imus, on national TV/radio took that time away from them with his deplorable insult that was specifically aimed at non-celebrity young women who could not respond in kind. That kind of behavior is reprehensible and this will not end until either Imus resigns or NBC/CBS radio fires him.

Please don't consider getting all haughty about the fact that there's other news out there. No, not while we are still having to ENDURE The Anna Nicole seemingly never ending story. :grr:

[donco6]

77. Yourself included.

I don't care if he is a "shock jock." He's also a racist bigot who deserves to be fired.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

52. If Imus were a guy who garnered big ratings and $$ for the station, I still would think he should be

fired, but I'd at least UNDERSTAND some equivocation and hemming and hawing on the part of the network.

Imus is the single most unappealing, unentertaining, hard to listen to AND hard to watch guy ever, liberal, conservative, or whatever.

I understand he had some mojo and ratings back in the day, but no more.

Hanging onto a loser like this just makes it seem like the network(s) actually place some importance on the ability of their broadcasters to freely spew racist sentiments.

Quite frankly it disgusts me.

[angee_is_mad]

56. HR would be on my #$$

quicker that I could say I'm sorry.

[Erika]

60. Imus CHOSE to hurt young girl achievers at Rutgers

He should be fired. He hurt them for their race and their sex and used public airwaves to do so.

[Texasgal]

65. Yes...

YES>>>YES!!!

[durrrty libby]

69. You know what I just realized?

This is actually a thread discussing the fact that a nurse would get fired for using a racial slur

Imagine that

No Duh

This is what one calls...Jumping the Shark



Congratulations!:dunce:

[BlooInBloo]

78. LOL! Yah, like no one working in a Texas hospital has called a black person "nigger" this year!

(and not gotten fired)

That's not REMOTELY close to passing the laugh test.

LOLOLOLOLOL!

[donco6]

81. ? Got a link for that?

Just wondering.

[BlooInBloo]

86. Of course not. If only that had any bearing.

[Texasgal]

97. Then you know NOTHING and are making a

false claim on something you obviously have NO CLUE about.

It's like me saying the sky is purple. BECAUSE I SAID SO. :eyes:

God what a shitty argument you produced. Stupid.

[Texasgal]

91. FInd a link and PROOVE your assertion.

Thank you.

[wisteria]

89. Honestly, where I worked until recently, they would of laughed at it.

I suppose it depend in what context you say it and exactly what type of employment you have.
Imus is a shock jock, that is a world away from being and RN.

Oh, I worked for jock-salesman types. I considered most of them to be disgusting wastes.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

92. With All Due Respect, If I Jabbed A Needle Into Someone's Arm At Work I'd Be Fired On The Spot Too.

It isn't valid nor appropriate to compare each job to another as if all things are equal.

[Texasgal]

96. Is racism not equal?

Just curious your thoughts on that.

[Horse with no Name]

93. Ummm I would be fired as well

An apology simply would not suffice...nor should it.
But one thing to note...I would learn my lesson the first time...it wouldn't happen twice.

[treestar]

94. Depends on where

But being self-employed, only the market would go against me and I suppose if I cultivated a customer base of white supremacists, it might even be a good thing, but as it is, I would never say such a thing.