NYC "higher-ups" demand that gun owner obtain a license for his flintlock rifle...

[-..__...]

despite the fact that there is no law that requires him to do so.

What makes these "higher-ups" think they have the authority to circumvent NYC statutes simply because
they harbor resentment towards firearms and law abiding gun owners?

Up in arms over gun: Replica rifle has Brooklyn man at odds with cops


Like America's first soldiers at the Battle of Brooklyn, Michael Littlejohn is fighting for his right to bear arms.

The Revolutionary War buff charges the Bloomberg administration with tyranny for trying to seize his handmade flintlock rifle - a dead ringer for the weapon once used against the redcoats.

"This is the last legal gun that you can have without registration in New York," Littlejohn said. "And yet Mayor Bloomberg is driven crazy by my flintlock gun - the one that won the American Revolution."

Littlejohn fired the first shot when he hired a Tennessee blacksmith to recreate the vintage rifle. It arrived at his Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn, apartment in June - followed quickly by city cops.

Police claim it's illegal for Littlejohn to keep the flintlock without a gun license.

Littlejohn, 50, cites the earliest American patriots as his inspiration while refusing to surrender his firearm or apply for a license.

The social worker is also clinging to a little-known exemption in the city's strict gun laws.

The loophole allows license-free ownership of "antique firearms" - defined as rifles that require the bullet and gunpowder to be loaded separately.

Littlejohn's rifle appears to fit the bill.

Snip...

That's not enough to make the NYPD retreat.

The cops visited Littlejohn's apartment and sat down this month with the Tennessee blacksmith who forged the rifle.

The lead detective on the case told Littlejohn's lawyer that he had orders "from higher-ups" to pursue the case, according to an e-mail the lawyer sent to Littlejohn.

Snip...

Cops aren't threatening to arrest Littlejohn - yet. Lawyer Joyce David, who represented Littlejohn until it became too expensive, says her ex-client could wind up with a summons.

A police source says the war could end peacefully if Littlejohn applied for a permit with the NYPD handgun license division.

Complete story...

[orpupilofnature57]

1. Like a License, it's a privilege ,and like a Model T, it could still kill you.

Accountability shouldn't be mistook for an assault on Liberty.

[TheWraith]

6. I'm sure, then, that you have no problem with your internet traffic and phone calls being recorded.

After all, it's only to make you "accountable," and if you're not doing anything wrong it can't hurt you. :eyes:

[orpupilofnature57]

7. Privacy isn't a privilege, it's a Right.

I nor anyone else should have to explain for anything that is of no possible concern to others.

[TheWraith]

11. And this guy is protected by the rights outlined in the 2nd, 5th, and 10th amendments.

The NYPD will not grant him a license to own this thing even if he conceeded to all their demands. Period. They're trying to deny him property. Add to that they're overreaching their authority by trying to regulate a long gun as a pistol. And lastly, NYC's de facto firearms ban runs seriously afoul of District of Columbia v. Heller.

Privacy is not explicitly protected in the constitution, whereas several other major rights being infringed here are.

[orpupilofnature57]

20. You meant the 4th, getting a license is not search and seizure ,and if privacy

wasn't protected ,why did it take Shrubs phony 'patriot act' to infringe on it?

[TheWraith]

27. Try reading the bill of rights again. nt

[orpupilofnature57]

30. try this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution

[Fumesucker]

12. I've been assuming my electronic conversations are being overheard for at least twenty years..

I never say or write a damn thing I don't want the whole world to know about unless I'm face to face and even then only with people I'm related to.

[orpupilofnature57]

19. Good point,how much of the 9/11 do you think was phoned in ?

I saw it as Shrub doing his part for the new world order him and his whole family is a part of.It sickens me to think president Obama didn't repeal it immediately.

[Canuckistanian]

21. Bad analogy

The internet and phone traffic can't KILL you.

Firearms can.

They were killing people 500 years ago, and they're killing people TODAY.

Responsible societies put limits and controls on activities and devices that are harmful to human life.

You have to license your car - because it's potentially lethal. You have to license explosive use - because it's potentially lethal. You have to license pesticide use - because it's potentially lethal.

Why do guns always get a free pass?

[TheWraith]

26. There are 18,000 firearms laws in the US.

Firearms are more restricted than virtually any other dangerous machine in the US, and yet they kill only about 3% of the number of people killed by cars. Why do you think further regulations on black powder muzzle loaders will stop violence?

[orpupilofnature57]

37. How many guns are there in America ,and how many times a day do people....

turn an ignition as opposed to pulling a trigger ,enough of this red scare.

[Statistical]

59. There are about 256 million motor vehicles and 226 to 340 million firearms in the US. n/t

[-..__...]

10. Cite one example where any court has ruled...

that being allowed to posses a firearm is a "privilege" and not a "right" (be it an individual or collective right)?

[RandomThoughts]

2. Self proclaimed 'Higher ups' making demands.

That's Rich :rofl:

[Curtland1015]

3. Both sides are erring a bit on their sides of this legal loophole...

Antiques

The New York definition of a firearm does not include an antique firearm. An antique firearm is any unloaded muzzle loading pistol or revolver with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system, or a pistol or revolver that uses fixed cartridges that are no longer available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. A license is not required to possess, collect or carry an unloaded antique firearm.

However, a license is required to possess, collect and carry antique pistols. The licensing statute defines an antique pistol as: any single shot, muzzle loading pistol with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system manufactured in or before l898, which is not designed for using rim-fire or conventional center-fire fixed ammunition; and any replica if such replica is not designed or redesigned for using rim-fire or conventional center-fire fixed ammunition, or uses rim-fire or conventional center-fire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. To the extent that an “antique pistol” is not also an “antique firearm,” a license would be required for lawful possession.

NY Law has interpreted this to mean antique rifles, shotguns, handguns, and replicas thereof, are generally exempt from the above restrictions and can be bought and possessed without a permit. (Persons who shoot muzzleloading handguns must be properly licensed.) However, to fall within the exemption, antique handguns must be unloaded and possessed without the materials required for loading.

[-..__...]

5. Relevent parts underlined...

Antiques

The New York definition of a firearm does not include an antique firearm. An antique firearm is any unloaded muzzle loading pistol or revolver with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system, or a pistol or revolver that uses fixed cartridges that are no longer available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. A license is not required to possess, collect or carry an unloaded antique firearm.

However, a license is required to possess, collect and carry antique pistols. The licensing statute defines an antique pistol as: any single shot, muzzle loading pistol with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system manufactured in or before l898, which is not designed for using rim-fire or conventional center-fire fixed ammunition; and any replica if such replica is not designed or redesigned for using rim-fire or conventional center-fire fixed ammunition, or uses rim-fire or conventional center-fire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. To the extent that an “antique pistol” is not also an “antique firearm,” a license would be required for lawful possession.

NY Law has interpreted this to mean antique rifles, shotguns, handguns, and replicas thereof, are generally exempt from the above restrictions and can be bought and possessed without a permit. (Persons who shoot muzzleloading handguns must be properly licensed.) However, to fall within the exemption, antique handguns must be unloaded and possessed without the materials required for loading.

[Curtland1015]

9. However, it still says that NY Law has interpreted antique rifles to fit this law...

...so if it is loaded, or he has the materials required TO load it, he needs a license.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but I do wonder why it's such a big deal to the guy to get the gun licensed.

[TheWraith]

13. Antique HANDGUNS, not rifles.

And this guy cannot get it licensed, because the NYPD does not issue firearms licenses to people other than police/ex-police and the politically well connected. The police will deny him his permit, then seize the gun and have it destroyed.

[Curtland1015]

15. Don't all kinds of civil war buffs own antique rifles?

I assume(d) those were real rifles.

Though perhaps those owners just have ammo for "flash" shots and no real ammo...

Still, there has to be hundreds or thousands of those in the state of NY, and why would they want to make him destory it. What would be in it for them?

I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm just trying to understand what their reasoning would be?

[TheWraith]

17. Who knows why they've got a bug up their ass.

In the State of New York, you require a (very hard to get) pistol permit for ANY kind of handgun, but no permit for a rifle or shotgun, new or antique. In New York City, you need a different (impossible to get) permit for a handgun, and different (impossible to get) permit for a modern rifle or shotgun, that meaning one which runs on smokeless powder. So the rest of the state is irrelevant. But for some reason they're trying to regulate this the way they can with handguns.

It could be as simple as he annoyed somebody, so they're taking revenge. That's the problem with a "may issue" system for weapons permits. When the police department is allowed to approve or reject people with no oversight or reasoning required, it's a golden opportunity for corruption. For instance, if I applied for one in my county, maybe the application would get rejected because they don't like Democrats. Meanwhile in NYC, a single mom who lives in a bad neighborhood and wants to protect herself can't legally buy a gun, but Chuck Schumer has a carry permit, as if he'd be handling his own security.

[-..__...]

18. He annoyed someone alright...

Bloomberg and/or some other official in City Hall with an anti-RKBA chip on their shoulder.

If Littlejohn had simply pissed of one of "NYCs finest", then I'm reasonably certain they could have hung his ass a long time ago on bogus/trumped up charges that would at least have some legal foundation.

The fact that an NYC detective got involved and made the "higher-ups" statement, tells me it's more than a simple police matter (legit, harassment or otherwise).

The cops involved in this injustice are probably as equally annoyed at having to bow to the demands from the top when their time and resources could be better utilized elsewhere.

[-..__...]

16. Where are you getting that from?

The law states that... "a license is required to possess, collect and carry antique pistols.

And that... "antique rifles, shotguns, handguns, and replicas thereof, are generally exempt from the above restrictions and can be bought and possessed without a permit.

However, that exemption does not apply to "antique handguns must be unloaded and possessed without the materials required for loading.

[BuyingThyme]

4. One of them new antiques, eh?

[TheWraith]

8. "End peacefully" my ass.

"A police source says the war could end peacefully if Littlejohn applied for a permit with the NYPD handgun license division."

They never grant such permits to anyone other than cops and people with political connections. So they'd deny his request, then he'd be legally obligated to turn the rifle over to them to be destroyed.

There is nothing in even the broadest interpretation of New York State law that justifies this, unless you agree that all rifles are handguns.

[orpupilofnature57]

22. You cant stop the new world order with a bullet.

[KDFW]

14. Non illigitimus carborundum, Michael

...

[csziggy]

23. You keep using that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.

In fact, it means nothing at all. It is a nonsense phrase, not Latin, and means nothing.

According to Safire's New Political Dictionary, this is "a pseudo-Latin phrase meaning 'don't let the bastards grind you down'. Small signs and plaques carrying this message have appeared in U.S. business offices and army posts for at least a generation, since General "Vinegar Joe" Stilwell used it as his motto in World War II. Carborundum is a trademark for silicon carbide, a leading commercial grinding substance...In politics, the motto was popularized by 1964 Republican nominee Senator Barry Goldwater, who hung the sign in his office." (--from Safire's New Political Dictionary, p. 353)

[KDFW]

24. It means exactly what virtually everyone says it means.

I'm quite aware of the etymology and it's widely used and understood. Safire agrees with me.
:D

[ContinentalOp]

43. So who are you quoting? Goldwater or Safire?

Enjoy your stay.

[KDFW]

47. Enjoy my stay? What does that mean?

Are you threatening me over a little linguistic banter?
My mama was right.

[baldguy]

25. Responsible gun owners follow the letter & the spirit of the law.

Sounds like this asshole conspired to undermine the law, by ripping open a minor loophole to enable someone to drive an elephant through it.

[TheWraith]

28. Actually no, he followed the law exactly.

NYC law says modern rifles, shotguns, and both modern and antique pistols must be registered. There is no possible interpretation of law which justifies treating a replica black powder musket the same as a modern handgun.

[KDFW]

29. No, the asshole is whoever is attempting to quash his Constitutional right.

Probably thinks the Bill of Rights quits after Amendment 1.

[X_Digger]

31. Ya numb nut..

It isn't applicable.. heck federal law doesn't consider it a firearm.. you can order one in the mail, with no background check.

Loophole? As in.. this _isn't a firearm_ covered by the law.

*headdesk*

[orpupilofnature57]

33. You gun lovers sure get pissy over a recreational tool ,nothing to do with

safety ,eating ,or protection of the republic.

[X_Digger]

34. Then change the law...

.. until you do, you don't get to make shit up as you go along.

[orpupilofnature57]

35. Ya numb nut ,yes I do ,it's my right.Your Privilege can kill ,not me making it up

as I go ,as long as some idiot doesn't shoot me with his ego.

[X_Digger]

39. *headdesk* Unless you claim to be GWB

or Nixon, or some other idiot who thinks that whatever they want to do is legal, then no, you don't get to make shit up as you go along.

That's a _fundamental_ principle of our justice system. Mess with that at your peril. Just don't bitch and moan when it gets turned against you.

[orpupilofnature57]

42. Paranoia ,at least it finally reared it's ugly head ,have a lollypop

[X_Digger]

44. Riiiight.. it's paranoid to let cops and govt..

.. do whatever the hell they please.

As if the last 8 years hasn't shown how smart THAT strategy is.

[KDFW]

46. Some people want only cops to be armed. And they hate cops.

I think their heads must hurt...a lot.

[X_Digger]

48. *nod* cognitive dissonance at its finest. n/t

[orpupilofnature57]

51. Liquid Logic

[orpupilofnature57]

52. Liquid Logic

[orpupilofnature57]

49. Gun lovers voted Shrub in ,who's making it up as they go along ?goodnight

N.R.A New Raving Assholes.

[X_Digger]

54. *snort*.. two wrongs don't make a right

.. but the second amendment protects one (rather than a privilege).

[baldguy]

36. NYC seems to disagree.

If he wants to live there, he should follow the law. Nobody's forcing him to live in Brooklyn.

[orpupilofnature57]

38. Cooperation would make it easier to punish illegal guns found on criminals.

[KDFW]

53. Yeah, like cooperation made it easier for Nazis to load Jews into railroad cars.

Do you even read what you write?

[orpupilofnature57]

56. Little melodramatic ,no?

[X_Digger]

40. He _is_ following the law.. read the article..

.. which outlines the law.

[KDFW]

50. Yeah, he could move to a shithole...like, oh, Buffalo for example.

...

[orpupilofnature57]

55. But he couldn't shoot a buffalo ,because Cody had no Restrictions

[baldguy]

58. It's too far away from Texas to be a shithole.

Texas being the anus of the world & all.

[-..__...]

57. Great...

"Love it or leave it... you vill comply"

Where have I heard that one before?

:eyes:

[DrCory]

60. Well, If You Read The Artice...

He DID follow the law, which does not require him to register the firearm in question:

"The loophole allows license-free ownership of "antique firearms" - defined as rifles that require the bullet and gunpowder to be loaded separately. Littlejohn's rifle appears to fit the bill."

His rifle does not use fixed ammunition, it's a muzzle loading firelock. The exemption was designed precisely for this TYPE of firearm.

[-..__...]

41. "conspired to undermine the law" has he?...

WTF?

And he's the "asshole" to boot?

If it were anything other than firearms involved with some of you, this topic would be flooded with outrage.

Forget for a moment that a firearm (any firearm), is even involved.

Doesn't it bother you in the slightest that city officials are employing police intimidation to force a
citizen to bow to their will... even when their own laws are on the aggrieveds side?

"Loophole"?!?... gimme a fucking break!

He followed the "letter" of the law (and better watch out for that "spirit of the law" thing because one day it could come back to bite you in the ass).

[orpupilofnature57]

45. Guilty ,by the same token ,Our world is being enslaved by more than a license.

[jehovas_waitress]

32. Must be one o' them there assault blunderbusses

[old mark]

61. Black powder firearms are considered "non guns" by Federal law

and are EXEMPT from any registration or regulation that applies to modern guns.
You can buy black powder rifles, shotguns and handguns online or from a catalog and have them sent to your home via UPS with NO federal paperwork or state registration required, and anybody can buy or own as many as they want. Bloomberg is such an anti-gun asshole, he had a huge campaign several years ago to prosecute licensed gun dealers in states other than New York. It started with great publicity, and ended with virtually none as NO EVIDENCE against the dealers was ever found because it seemed the "investigators" lied about it all.
Bloomburg cares nothing about violating the law to serve his own whims.


mark