Who wants Citizen Review Boards for criminal cops?

[lexanman]

It's way past time for CRB's with teeth to fire criminal cops and investigate coverups in the police heirarchy. We need them across the country. Rogue cops and the departments that cover for them need to be fully investigated and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

[Iggo]

1. Everybody but the cops, I'm guessing.

We went through this a looooong time ago with the LAPD.

[lexanman]

3. thanks for the rec, Im assuming.

yes you are right. the LAPD is something to behold in term of corruption and racism.

[TheKentuckian]

2. Yes!!! With resources, teeth, and from a cross section of the community served.

These things as is are nothing but a powerless rubberstamp.

[lexanman]

4. you are right about that.

[SpookyCat]

5. If they had actual power, I'd be all over that. nt

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

6. We had one. One of the people elected to it was a convicted felon.

He ended up getting arrested again. Of course someone planted the gun he was carrying.

[Supply Side Jesus]

7. Hmmm....maybe.

They have to understand all aspects of the job. Perhaps as a requirement they should complete and pass a Law Enforcement Academy, board exams, and complete a field training program, then I think they could be qualified. Train in a different agency if they would like, so as to prevent any bias by training with people you would have to review at a later time. Then I think I would be game.

[lexanman]

9. That is fine by me

They should also have to work at soup kitchens and homeless shelters too as part of their training. Give them a tour of prisons and jails across the country, and spend a couple of weeks at the unemployment and SS disability offices too.See how the other side view law enforcement. Give them a rounded educational training.

[MADem]

8. Some sort of review board. I don't know if putting Rodney King or the Tasered Weenie guy

on those boards helps, though. Victims of cops have (justifiable) biases.

I don't know who would be best for such a duty.

If the cop is a criminal, why can't they go through the criminal justice system, like everyone else?

[lexanman]

10. because they are protected by the blue wall.

think it's fiction?

[MADem]

49. Why do you even ask that? Why would you think I believe that it's "fiction?"

If there's an "administrative review" of an officer's conduct, why yes, there is potential to obscure the details.

However, if a policeman engages in blatantly criminal activity, it is more difficult (not impossible, but more difficult) for a "blue wall" to protect them.

Once the police officer is in the court system, though, there's always the concept of jury nullification, too. That's a knife that cuts more than one way. The ability to get an acquittal can and often does depend on the quality of the defense, not the guilt or innocence of the defendant. This isn't news though, and good lawyers aren't limited to police defendants.

I think the trick is to have some sort of governmental oversight into the internal review process when it involves crime, particularly crime against citizens. I don't know if having "victims" on the board is a good idea, though. Perhaps someone who has worked with victims...

[BlooInBloo]

11. I'm all for toothy oversight of the professions that fight hardest against it...

Police, teachers, and doctors.

[lexanman]

12. Teacher and Doctors don't carry guns and handcuffs

and tazer and shoot people and usually get away with it. I may be wrong, but it is the police that are the voice screaming against it. I don't know of many organized groups of teacher and doctors who are fighting hard against Citizen Review Boards of police. Again, I could be wrong about that.

[BlooInBloo]

13. I'm aware that the 3 professions are very different, thanks.

[lexanman]

15. well you said the three professions that fight hard against it

are police, teachers and doctors. Why would doctors and teachers fight hard against it? I can see why cops would. But teachers and doctors?

[BlooInBloo]

16. There's no point in attempting further communication.

[lexanman]

19. Ive seen your posts

and you seem like an even keeled kind of person. Rational and progressive in a lot of posts. Why no further communication?

[lexanman]

28. I get what you mean

teachers and doctors fight against oversight in their own professions. Teachers are regularly fired and laid off and Doctors pay huge malpractice premiums and are sued all the time, and rightly so in many cases. You ought to be a little more specific in your posts, rspectfully.

[BlooInBloo]

31. Thanks, I'll work on that.

[paulsby]

45. teachers with tenure in many districts are NOT

what complete rubbish, "regularly fired and laid off".

do you have any idea how difficult it is to fire a teacher with tenure in many districts. at least, usually more difficult than firing a cop.

cmon. get real

[lexanman]

51. many teachers do not have tenure.

Where I am, they closed several schools and fired hundreds of teachers in one fell swoop. It happens all over where school consolidation happens. Your comment is complete rubbish.

[paulsby]

52. and not all cops have the same amount

of civil service protection that is equivalent to tenure. a friend of mine used to work in texas, and it was MUCH easier to fire cops in his agency, than it is in mine. that's why i didn't say ALL teachers fall under this system, just like all cops don't. hth

[lexanman]

53. Most teachers don't fall under this system

The NEA was severely weakened under 8 years of Bush. in fact unions make up about 7.5 percent of the workforce and much of that percentage is LEO/corrections. Others include gov workers/mass transit/ etc.

[paulsby]

54. if you have evidence or a cite to support the following assertion

that the majority (iow most, as you say) teachers (i am referring to full time public school teachers) don't fall under the tenure/really hard to fire system, then present it. and i'll agree i was wrong. i'd love to learn something new. but until i see evidence, i will remain a skeptic. fwiw, substitutes and private school teachers generally don't have any such protections, but neither do part time (reserve) cops or private cops iow security .

[lexanman]

55. here are some good sites.

http://www.aauw.org/advocacy/laf/lafnetwork/library/tenure_stats.cfm

http://www.nea.org/home/33067.htm

Roughly 2.3 million public school teachers in the U.S. have tenure out of 6.2 million(a little over a third) source.. http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/001737.html


No need to say you were wrong. A low of people don't know a lot about tenure. Its not common knowledge, yet there are a lot of opinions on the subject.

[paulsby]

57. i'll say i was wrong

i assumed that the majority of full time public school teachers in the US operated under a tenure system. i have NO PROBLEM admitting i was wrong, when i am. it means i learned something. that's a good thing. props to you.

fwiw, one of the things i find immensely annoying about discussing topics on sites like this (political sites especially) is that SO many people simply will NEVER admit they were wrong. it becomes very tiresome. usually, such people devolve to either playing word games, evading, strawmans, or ad hominems. they can't simply say "my bad". i find that annoying as fuck.

so god knows i do not want to be like those i detest.

again, thanks for teaching me something.

[lexanman]

60. I appreciate your post

and tenure is something most people associate with colleges and universities. Usually associate or full professors attain that status. The majority of college/university level positions are not tenured positions. And yes, there are tenured professors that are quite lacking. I have experienced them first hand.

[lexanman]

61. I will add

I also dont like when people never admit they are wrong. Many people here post to threads purposefully missing the point and that really is a shame. I carefully post responses and try to argue points without resorting to fallacies, yet many here use fallacy as their main argument. Im not referring to you at all, but many others who divert and misdirect an argument or point on purpose. I share your thoughts about postings and how they can be frustrating.

[paulsby]

44. all people in power fight to minimize oversight and accountability

and increase benefits and protections. duh.

teachers are actually a lot like cops in that regards. our unions are very powerful and they are fierce advocates for OUR rights and OUR privileges.

why wouldn't teachers and doctors fight against civilian review boards ? are you CRAZY?

of course they do. they'd be insane not to . and they do

[paulsby]

43. correct, but they also all have immense power

want to talk about iatrogenic deaths? how many deaths in hospitals? doctors cause far more deaths in a year than cops could ever dream of. but cops deserve citizen oversight boards and doctors don't, according to some? doctors have the power (as do nurse practitioners and doctor's assistants in many cases) to prescribe and administer potentially lethal (and often lethal drugs), for instance.

fascinating.

teachers have immense power over essentially captive kids. i arrest a juvenile, i usually can't even book him at all. he goes home to his mommy and daddy unless it;'s a serious felony (rape, robbery), or a DV crime, or he;'s got priors.

teachers have immense power. and strong unions like cops that fight oversight. but they don't need civilian review boards, just cops according to some.

fascinating.

[vadawg]

14. problem is the people who volunteer for these oversight committees

are often the people with the biggest axes to grind, i had the unfortunate job of having to liase with one and spent most of my time being berated by one of the members who felt her son was being victimised by the police, dosent help that he was an active member of the Crips and was being harrassed by a different counties mounties, all she did was complain and show her dislaike of all law enforcememnt. problem is that citizen review boards evaluate every situation from their perspective and have no idea of what the job is actually about and the decisions we have to make every day that effect peoples lifes and could ultimately cost us our lives. So i am against them in principle, but i might agree on using retired LEOs even from different jurisdictions.

[BlooInBloo]

17. I wonder if something more jury-style would be more effective?

[vadawg]

25. yup mayby taking people at random like a jury, and allowing say three challenges by the officer

would help, but as i said nearly everyone who i experienced on the board had major issues or hangups..

[BlooInBloo]

27. (shrug) While I'm not especially concerned about people behind the blue wall being worried...

about people with "hangups" (because a large part of people having "hangups" is directly due to the popo's failure to popo themselves), still the inherent fairness of a lottery-based system makes sense.

Note that the "hangups" would be expected to lessen over time in the presence of a decent citizen review board, due to an amount of trust being built back up. But it took time for cops to erode that trust to near-nil, and it would take time to build it back up.

[vadawg]

32. well you should be worried about those hangups, they are biases the same as

experienced by certain members of the community from other members of the community, i sure as hell would not want to be judged by twelve people who totally hate me just because the colour of my skin is Blue (popo) just as a black guy wouldnt want to be judged by a group of klan members..

[BlooInBloo]

33. Um... if the public views the popo the way black folks view the klan...

Then the popo has a serious problem.

It's unfortunate that you analogize the public to the klan - truly a microcosm of the whole problem.

[vadawg]

36. you need to spend some more time on DU then

just look at any thread about the popo, you get tonnes of references to the pigs, and hooping they all die etc etc etc, just like there is a proportion of society who hate anyone black for whatever reason, theres segments of society who hate the popo with the same vehemence.

[paulsby]

47. DU;'s attitude towards cops though is NOT

representative of society at large.

you should know that. stay strong man!

just look at the polling data. people overwhelmingly support and respect the police. we are amongst the top few professions in that regards that are held in such high esteem and viewed as having significant prestige.

i can't tell you how many times i have had people walk up to me (in my uniform) and tell me how thankful they were that i was out there doing my job.

by the nature of our job, we are often forced to deal with people at their worst, we are required to take strong actions (arrest, uses of force etc.) that nobody LIKES to have done with them, and we deal with a lot of prejudice, too.

example. this happened just last week. i'm on a residential street. off duty. i see two women arguing. one has a baseball bat. i get on my cell, di.al 911, give description, give my own description as an off-duty (in case something happens, so they will be forewarned an off duty officer is on scene and know who i am), etc. and do what i do - be a good witness.

one of the women starts hitting the other woman with the bat (actually, its along thick wooden rod, but looked like a bat from afar). so, i run in and by that time, it's a full battle royale. i manage to get them seperated, and restrain the aggressor. i have no handcuffs, so i have to hold her in a loose bear hug. if i don't, i can't risk her running off. her mother comes out of the house and starts berating me that i can't hold on to her, i have no right. when i identify myself, tell her the cops are on the way and she can argue it with them, she continues that i have no right to restrain her daughter. the fact that her daughter just hit the other woman with the bat is of course irrelevant to her. a civilian witness thank god pulled up so she can offer corroboration in case this woman makes some kind of bogus complaint. local cops arrive, arrest the woman , tend to the victim, etc.

victims' family LOVES me, thanks me effusively.

suspoect's family bitches and moans about me to the cops. mother even claims i CHOKED her daughter. her daughter even denies that, so at least she was honest.

anyway, the suspect's family is still pissedthat we didn't arrest the victim. see, after the woman got hit with the bat, she clocked the suspect back in the face, which caused her to drop the bat. when i pulled them apart the victim was on top of the suspect. maybe if i hadn't intervened, the suspect would ALSO be a victim, but we'll never know.

anyway, i witnessed the entire incident. there is NO question that she was the only one who should be arrested, but i got called a racist (both the suspect and the victim were black btw), and all sorts of racial slurs thrown at me.

that's the crap we deal with every day.

and fwiw, if i had calmly stood and watched this incident unfold and took no actions whatsoever, i would suffer exactly zero civil, departmental or criminal liability. i had NO duty to act. but is cowardice preferred? no, cops are trained to go IN to dangerous situations, not simply watch them.

not to mention that my shoulder was already completely fucked up from a sports injury the previous weekend (i was on sick leave at the time pending surgery) and it frigging was exceptionally painful to even move my arm, let alone what i had to do in this incident.

this kind of crap happens every frigging day, thousrands of times, and NEVER makes the paper. only the crowley type incidents do. if i had shot the woman or something, THAT would make the paper. a no blood, no muss, no fuss incident, that cops routinely handle, often with significant danger, don't.

so, don't let them get you down vadawg. there are few things as honorable as being a cop and it's a calling most people could never do, let alone do well.

[paulsby]

46. the general public at large doesn't, check the polling

the general public holds police officers in very high regards. our profession consistently ranks amongst the very top in terms of prestige, respect etc. accorded to it by the general populace. in poll after poll. nurses, doctor, military, teachers and cops routinely score amongst the most respected of professions. polls don't lie.

the problem with civilian review boards is they don't choose a random cross section of people. i've never seen a citizen review board that does that. maybe some do. as the poster said, they are frequently people with strong biases and aversion to facts.

[lexanman]

18. see post 9

retired LEO would kind of negate the whole idea of Citizen Review Boards, dont you think? Or is every argument going to be every person who sits on one is a criminal, or her son is a Crip, or some such bullshit?

The CBR where I am has no teeth and has no members with gang affiliations or criminal records. Does nothing to stop people still getting tazered for no reason or their neck stomped on until they suffocate.

[vadawg]

23. yeah the reasonas i explained why cops dont like these boards

are shown clearly in your post, you are never going to find people without a bias either way, and when you put people who have no idea of the actual job and who dont have the training so dont know why a deputy reacts a certain way. i dont think theres any middle ground, as im sure i dont have the neccessary knowledge or expertise to judge your job skills, im pretty sure you dont have the same to be able to judge my day to day decisions, and when we do step over the line then the courts who do have expertise can punish us.

[lexanman]

37. I am going to take a guess and say that you are LEO or former LEO

and I want you to understand what I say. I will always be respectful with those who present goood arguments such as yours. It is not the purpose for officers to like thes CRB's. That is not why they are implemented. People are gong to find bias in anything Every human being. Police have bias all the time. So do people who get arrested have bias.

If we were to enact a system where noone could have bias, we would no have a government, or courts, or police. That is a fallacious argument. Police work and the job it entails is not above human mortals. People do in fact have every idea of what the job entails. And the training that goes into it. There is a middle ground in everything except absolutes. Racism. Homophobes. Sexism.

And the courts you speak of side with your fellow officers the vast majority of the time, even when there is wrongdoing. A viable and independent CRB is in both the interest of the community and the police to weed out and keep the police department honest.

[vadawg]

38. i am going to disagree with you in regards to saying that people have an idea about the job

trust me society at large has no idea what the job entails, you only have to read the comments section on any website when it deals with the popo to understand that, we dont have the luxury of monday morning quaterbacking every decision we make, sometimes we have to make calls that end badly for all involved, thats just a fact of the job, and try explaining to someone who has never had to approach a vehicle occupied 4 times on a dark highway with backup 20 mins out why you were suspicious of the occupiers and why you had them all exit the vehicle at gun point and lie on the wet road. i guarentee you if we were discussing such a traffic stop there would be many posters here who would second guess the officer and others would accuse the officer of profiling or racism etc etc. Policework is full of grey areas were we have to make judgement calls every day that people dont like and all we can do is give our best good faith attempt at doing the job.

[lexanman]

39. I can't say anything other than props

but a police officer's job is not special in that sense. So are firefighters. So are military over seas. And so is a guy in a food processing plant who knows the product he is packing is teeming with e-coli. It is all a matter of timing and time. Deaths may occur immediately or a little bit further in time. Same with a nurse. Or a Doctor.


The difference is the people who wear a badge and a gun with shoot to kill if need be, are police. And military.

Oh who knows. Maybe its humans who are the problem. Maybe its us.

That makes me sad.

[vadawg]

40. so if we are not special, no different than any other group, do you want

unexperienced boards to go over every decision made by these other groups, what about a board of volunteers to go over every teachers lesson plan, and with the power to fire any teacher who they dont agree with. This is my problem with the volunteer citizen boards, some of them can wield a lot of power and having experience of them the power is totally out of skew with the knowledge and experience the board had. Thankfully the agencies involved all pulled out of the board due to the insane decisions and recommendations being made.

[lexanman]

41. like i said

maybe it's human beings that are the problem. all our debating and warring and arguing and killing and shitting where we eat. It seems we are against one another. In fighting. No side is right. Or wrong. Maybe an asteroid will hit this planet and do us all a favor.

[underseasurveyor]

20. I have always thought that anyone that's in a postion to up hold the law

and IF that person is found guilty of breaking the laws they have sworn to up hold then they should automatically be sentenced to double the maximum fines and/or jail time.

[lexanman]

22. that would work

[underseasurveyor]

24. One could hope

[vadawg]

26. not sure that would work, could claim equal protection..

problem again is the misunderstanding when it comes to police work, people seem to not understand that sometimes we have to make decisions that could take someones life instantanously, sometimes that turns out to be a mistake, ie shooting someone we believed to be armed, some people would then claim this is murder but is it, the problem is like some other professions, mistakes even in good faith sometimes have lasting consequences.

[underseasurveyor]

29. First let me say that I have the utmost respect and love for cops.

My father was a motor cop, my sister works in a PD and many of our friends are police officers. I realize there is a lot of grey area to deal with. What I'm referring to are the rogues that seem to think that they are above the law whether they are cops, judges, etc. Anyone that has taken an oath and is sworn to up hold the law and knowingly breaks the law because they somehow believe they are above it should go down and go down hard. Now the equal protection thing? yea that does present another cans of worms now doesn't it.

Mistakes and accidents happen, I know.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. We have one in my city... works fine

and the local department also has top notch people in charge, so there is little tolerance for the BS that goes on in other departments

[TheKentuckian]

30. Ahh, calls for foxes to watch the hen house.

These are old foxes though.

Police should be subject to strong public oversight and if they don't like it then there are other fields. This isn't about what they want. If they want to be cops then they should learn to like it or they are worth a quarter to their communities in any event.

We pay your salary, benefits, and retirement. Damn straight you better love it.

[vadawg]

34. good then you are happy to have all jobs scrutinised by people who have no experience of it

im sure you would be happy to have your job evaluated by me, seeing as i probuably have no idea about what you do, we already have strong oversight, by media, the courts, internal affairs, elected politicions etc. Not sure having a panel of volunteers brings anything to the table unless there are ways to allow them the experience of going to a traffic stop, dome violence call etc etc etc.

[BlooInBloo]

42. (shrug) My manager has no idea how to program, but he oversees me (programmer)...

And the idea that I need police experience to know that tazing a guy's balls is wrong is just laughable.

I'm sorry cops can't be trusted too; but it's their own fucking fault for being on their side, and against the public. Until they can be trusted, let them be overseen by the very public whose balls they taze.

[Supply Side Jesus]

48. Much more to the job than tasering

Ever work a suicide of young person? Had to tell the family their loved one is dead? Step around the room while trying to avoid stepping on brain matter? Taking photos of a ear stuck to a wall after they put a shotgun in their mouth and.... How about the fun calls when a parent calls Law enforcement because little Johnny throw a fit because he can't go to a friends house? Can you tell the difference between a civil and criminal issue? Is it civil or criminal with a court order? Understand printouts from NCIC? Understand State Statutes? ect...ect..ect...Comfort children after their Daddy went to jail and Mommy went in a ambulance? Ever have a five year old die in your hands? Put a dog down after it was crushed by a truck, when it looks to you with anguish and hope in it's eyes... Yes bloo...there is so much more to being a cop than a taser.

Just like I'm sure there's more to programming than the blue screen of death.

[Thickasabrick]

50. +1

[TheKentuckian]

59. I have no arrest power, am not armed, and have only ever worked the private sector.

Cops are public servants entrusted to enforce the law, they exist only to serve and need (desperately) strong oversight.

[cherokeeprogressive]

35. I assume you'll exclude any and all men and women who are employed by law enforcement agencies

in ANY capacity, right?

[gulliver]

56. Chosen randomly from other communities

The citizens of the community actually served should have no say whatsoever. That is a clear conflict of interest. A bunch of criminals could then take over a neighborhood and "review board" out a tough cop. I don't see the cops as serving all of the citizens...just the good ones.

[ProudDad]

58. All paramilitary and military organizations require

STRONG oversight.

They are indoctrinated in a demented form of an "us" and "them" mentality that leaves anyone not in their "group" as a "clueless civilian" at best or an objectified enemy at worst (depends on color, location, etc.).

They must be watched like hawks and when discovered doing wrong come down upon with a ton of bricks!

Hey, LEOs, you freakin' WORK FOR US. You don't work for your warped view of the "brotherhood" or the "thin blue line". You operate on our sufferance and as a result aren't the free agents you think you are...nor should you be.

We don't want you to collude to make up charges...

We don't want you to arrest, tase or kill folks 'cause they made you mad...

That's not what you're hired for...

You're hired to protect rich (mostly white) people and their property first and to continue racial oppression and oppression of the poor...

[Vidar]

62. Great idea!