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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 07:41 PM
Original message
Poll question: Firing teachers who don't measure up to standards/performance?
Seems a straightforward question, but for those who belief the sole qualifier is a teacher's ability to teach, something the media and other folks promoting this mindset forget:

The desire of the children to be educated to performance standards.

The discipline of the children.

If these two aforementioned qualifiers are met, then holding teachers accountable makes sense.

Otherwise, teachers are the scapegoats for a far more encompassing problem.

Like somebody of importance once said, "it takes a village". Therefore, more than teachers need accountability.

Thank you for reading.

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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. (shrug) My performance as a programmer is impacted by all sorts of things...
not under my direct control - including what others do. My performance still gets measured.

Just because no measure is perfect is no argument not to measure. (See the history of fractals for a funny example taking this thought to its conclusion.)
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Fractals are a form of recursive mathematics; the procedure falls back on itself.
Throwing in random numbers changes the pattern entirely, therefore the random numbers must be analyzed in all things too.

:)
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
25. ...
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Who measures your performance?
Presumably your peers, people in management, etc. They may or may not know much about programming but it's the best system you could hope for.

On the other hand, maybe there are more concrete ways to measure your productivity. For example, we could keep track of the number of calls to tech support that your features caused. We could record how many program and system crashes happen while your code is being executed. And of course we could tie your performance review directly to sales. Because after all, if the program is crashing and not selling well that must be directly your fault right?
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. (shrug) I'm all for improved metrics. The lack of a perfect one is no argument...
for not using any at all however. Everybody who is subject to performance measurement is subject to IMPERFECT performance measurement. There's no reason teaching should be any different. Teaching is hard, but it isn't magically unmetrizable because of that.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. Qualifier: Ability to teach can't be based only on student performance.
There are too many variables, every student is unique, student performance on standardized tests should not be relied upon to evaluate the qualifications of the teacher.

Content proficiency and demonstrating understanding of teaching pedagogy and classroom management strategies are among useful criteria in evaluation teachers' qualifications.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. There was no reason for this thread to be unrecommended...
Maybe the person who was so kind to do so would be so kind as to explain why? (Is the thread unworthy of discussion? The topic was mentioned on the news? Or is it personal, in which case you might be better off not responding because I will remember you. :) )
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
5. At my company, if someone doesn't meet performance levels
it goes to a committee of Management and HR. This way, if there are extenuating circumstances the committee can take them into consideration before a decision is made to terminate or continue employment. This sounds like a very fair and effective method to me. If there are extenuating circumstances, then we can retain an employee that has potential. Otherwise, the employee was given every opportunity.
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BalancedGoat Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. Yes. In theory.
The practical question then becomes what to use as a fair basis for such an assessment. I will say that standardized tests by themselves are not good enough. Though, that's not to say they couldn't be one part of a larger performance review.
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Versailles Donating Member (384 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
7. No dentist left behind
My dentist is great! He sends me reminders so I don't forget check-ups. He uses the latest techniques based on research. He never hurts me, and I've got all my teeth. When I ran into him the other day, I was eager to see if he'd heard about the new state program. I knew he'd think it was great.

"Did you hear about the new state program to measure effectiveness of dentists with their young patients?" I said.

"No," he said. He didn't seem too thrilled. "How will they do that?"

"It's quite simple," I said. "They will just count the number of cavities each patient has at age 10, 14, and 18 and average that to determine a dentist's rating. Dentists will be rated as excellent, good, average, below average, and unsatisfactory. That way parents will know who the best dentists are. The plan will also encourage the less effective dentists to get better," I said. "Poor dentists who don't improve could lose their licenses to practice."

"That's terrible!" he said.

"What? That's not a good attitude," I said. "Don't you think we should try to improve children's dental health in this state?"

"Sure I do," he said, "but that's not a fair way to determine who is practicing good dentistry."

"Why not?” I said. "It makes perfect sense to me."

"Well, it's so obvious," he said. "Don't you see that dentists don't all work with the same clientele, and that much depends on things we can't control? For example, I work in a rural area with a high percentage of patients from deprived homes, while some of my colleagues work in upper middle- class neighborhoods. Many of the parents I work with don't bring their children to see me until there is some kind of problem, and I don't get to do much preventive work. Also, more educated parents who understand the relationship between sugar and decay. To top it all off, so many of my clients have well water which is untreated and has no fluoride in it. Do you have any idea how much difference early use of fluoride can make?"

"It sounds like you're making excuses," I said. "I can't believe that you, my dentist, would be so defensive. After all, you do a great job, and you needn't fear a little accountability."

"I am not being defensive!" he said. "My best patients are as good as anyone's, my work is as good as anyone's, but my average cavity count is going to be higher than a lot of other dentists because I chose to work where I am needed most.”

"Don't get touchy," I said.

"Touchy?" he said. His face had turned red, and from the way he was clenching and unclenching his jaws, I was afraid he was going to damage his teeth. "Try furious! In a system like this, I will end up being rated average, below average, or worse. The few educated patients I have who see these ratings may believe this so-called rating is an actual measure of my ability and proficiency as a dentist. They may leave me, and I'll be left with only the most needy patients. And my cavity average score will get even worse. On top of that, how will I attract good dental hygienists and other excellent dentists to my practice if it is labeled below average?"

"I think you are overreacting," I said. "'Complaining, excuse-making and stonewalling won't improve dental health'...I am quoting from a leading member of the DOC," I noted.

"What's the DOC?" he asked.

"It's the Dental Oversight Committee," I said, "a group made up of mostly lay persons to make sure dentistry in this state gets improved.”

"Spare me," he said, "I can't believe this. Reasonable people won't buy it," he said hopefully.

The program sounded reasonable to me, so I asked, "How else would you measure good dentistry?"

"Come watch me work," he said. "Observe my processes."

"That's too complicated, expensive and time- consuming," I said. "Cavities re the bottom line, and you can't argue with the bottom line. It's an absolute measure."

"That's what I'm afraid my parents and prospective patients will think. This can't be happening," he said despairingly.

"Now, now," I said, "don't despair. The state will help you some."

"How?" he asked.

"If you receive a poor rating, they'll send a dentist who is rated excellent to help straighten you out," I said brightly.

"You mean," he said, "they'll send a dentist with a wealthy clientele to show me how to work on severe juvenile dental problems with which I have probably had much more experience? BIG HELP!"

"There you go again," I said. "You aren't acting professionally at all."

"You don't get it," he said. "Doing this would be like grading schools and teachers on an average score made on a test of children's progress with no regard to influences outside the school, the home, the community served and stuff like that. Why would they do something so unfair to dentists? No one would ever think of doing that to schools."

I just shook my head sadly, but he had brightened. "I'm going to write my representatives and senators," he said. "I'll use the school analogy. Surely they will see the point." He walked off with that look of hope mixed with fear and suppressed anger that I, a teacher, see in the mirror so often lately.

If you don't understand why educators resent the NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND ACT, this may help. If you do understand, you'll enjoy this analogy, which was forwarded by John S. Taylor, Superintendent of Schools for the Lancaster County, PA, School District.


There is a difference between being accountable and using an inaccurate method of measuring student success as a measuring stick to teaching ability. Any teacher worth his or her salt, in my opinion, will realize that every single one of their students is different and cannot be shoved into the same mold. Some students test well, others don't. I was a student who could ace every single test put in front of me without doing a single lick of work during the school year. Does that mean I learned the material or does that mean that I could ferret out the correct answer in a variety of multiple choice questions? If I had done the opposite and done every assignment perfectly, stayed after school for extra information, etc. but taken a test the same day I had to go to the funeral of a close family member and therefore failed the test, does that show that I didn't learn anything and the teacher shouldn't be teaching any longer?

Using high stakes testing as a measurement of the TEACHER'S ability is silly as those tests are often a poor indicator of STUDENT success. Teachers need to be evaluated by direct observation and a review of their tests and materials. Just thoughts from an ex-teacher who left the education field specifically because of the ludicrous demands put on teachers.
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femmocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I would recommend this if I could! Brilliant!
In addition, not all teachers are required to administer standardized tests! What about the teachers whose subjects or grade levels are not tested? Doesn't that place an unfair burden on those who DO have to test? Why does no one ever mention that fact?

It's just another way to disparage teachers and public education, IMO.
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. It explains the situation quite well...
...doesn't it? One of my favorites...

May I suggest you make this it's own post, so more people will see it? Please? :7
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Versailles Donating Member (384 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Thanks for the support...
I assumed that since this has been around for a while, it had probably been posted repeatedly. :D
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Only a couple of times that I know of. And...
...you are welcome. :)
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
27. I too am an ex-teacher who left because of BS like this.
I had excellent reviews until I crossed paths with a principal and suddenly I was the spawn of Satan on all my reviews. I hadn't changed teaching and by any rational metric I was doing a better job, but the administration didn't like me (hint: post 9/11 and I was not of the "correct" national origin) suddenly.

I was an excellent teacher. My kids always did WAY above average at state and national contests. I brought in over $250,000 in grant money the year before I was "none renewed."

After that I knew that it was all BS and I moved on to greener pastures (I was hired by the Save the Music Foundation within 2 days after I quit). I loved teaching and I still miss it but I couldn't chance the disruptions to my family by having to move again and start all over. I just said fuck it. And I am far from alone. Most teachers who start teaching quit forever after less than 5 years and it usually AIN'T because of the kids.

Public education in America, once a shining jewel, has become the toilet of the GOP. I hope Reagan is burning in hell.

Rant. Snort. Froth.
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
8. I can say, with complete confidence, that people who have not been teachers
really have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to teaching in the public schools in America today...
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femmocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Hear, hear. And thank you.
:applause:
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Well, I do not deserve the praise of putting my self in someone else's
shoes, because I AM a teacher in public school...
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femmocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. The praise was for sticking up for teachers.
But you knew that. :pals:

I'm also a public school teacher. I cannot think of any other profession that has so many unqualified people making judgments about the practices of its members. And evaluating teachers based on student performance makes about as much sense as the one about the dentist (up-thread).
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. !
:pals:
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Amen
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
9. Your poll is kind of confusing.
I would disagree with the subject line if that's what you're polling. But then you also seem to be disagreeing in the text of your message. So am I voting yes or no on your subject line or on your opinion on the issue?

At any rate, the idea of performance standards are absurd. It's the same with student testing. Student performance should be measured by the teachers who know them, and teacher performance should be measured by the administrators who are in the best position to observe their performance. Testing and metrics are pure Bushian bullshit.
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Sparky 1 Donating Member (136 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
18. What about teachers' unions? Aren't you leaving them out?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
19. No. Let's help them get better.
Bottom line - masses of college graduates are not lining up to teach. The more unattractive the profession, the less likely we will be able to fill the vacancies we already have.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
21. Sure would make it easier to fire teachers...
If an administrator didn't like a teacher all they'd have to do is stack their classes with students who can't succeed.

Geez. I taught a few middle schoolers who couldn't read. They'd turn in blank scantron tests and they didn't care one iota. I almost wanted to feel successful if they wrote their name where they were supposed to.

Any sharp teacher who wanted to get ahead in accountability world would simply show the kids how to do bubble tests and give them the correct answers.

Maybe that's all you need to know to get by in this modern world. The cash registers at McDonalds or the triage desks at the hospital are pretty easy to master.




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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
22. Sure would make it easier to fire teachers...
If an administrator didn't like a teacher all they'd have to do is stack their classes with students who can't succeed.

Geez. I taught a few middle schoolers who couldn't read. They'd turn in blank scantron tests and they didn't care one iota. I almost wanted to feel successful if they wrote their name where they were supposed to.

Any sharp teacher who wanted to get ahead in accountability world would simply show the kids how to do bubble tests and give them the correct answers.

Maybe that's all you need to know to get by in this modern world. The cash registers at McDonalds or the triage desks at the hospital are pretty easy to master.




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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-27-09 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
23. Yes. Then again, my life experience and PTSD has left me with little respect for teachers, anyway.
But god forbid try doing it, you will have the teachers' "unions" on your rear end calling you the spawn of Satan for daring to criticize them and imply that the self-interest of teachers and the needs of students may be in conflict.
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