Letting Michael Vick into the NFL on any terms sickens me.

[DUlover2909]

However, if the NFL made him give half his paycheck (after taxes) to PETA, would you say it's ok for him to play again? That's the only thing that could mitigate my opposition to his reinstatement.

What do you think?

[KamaAina]

1. Why PETA?

:puke:

Why not the ASPCA or some other organization?

[dorkulon]

3. It's Vick's moral obligation to help fund zany publicity stunts and pictures of naked celebrities.

The ASPCA is sooo boring.

[DesertFlower]

2. yes. PETA, Best friends, etc.

[demosincebirth]

4. Why PETA? Why not the SPCA?

[DesertFlower]

6. or the humane society.

as long as it's groups that help animals.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. I'd rather see Michael Vick in the NFL than PETA having any sort of income.

Fucking nuts.

[demosincebirth]

7. I tend to agree with ya.

[Raineyb]

66. I agree.

Can't stand PETA.

[AzNick]

70. I am a partisan of the second chance n/t

[DUlover2909]

78. Do his victims get a second chance?

[AzNick]

84. No. And...? You don't believe in reinsertion?

If you are a liberal and a leftie, I thought you'd be for reinsertation of criminals into our society.

[Forkboy]

86. I'm all for reinsertion.

[cherokeeprogressive]

146. Oh you are so bad...

[Forkboy]

151. I'm a cad. You can't take me anywhere.

Which is good, as I don't really want to go anywhere anyways. :)

[cherokeeprogressive]

154. Ya can dress him up, but ya can't take him out.

I've had that said about me more than a few times...

[DUlover2909]

90. And you thought wrong. Liberal doesn't mean, "Bring on the psychos!"

[AzNick]

What about all the other psychos in prison? Trash them?

Or offer them a second chance to better themselves?

I think you're one of the "throw away the key" people to whom we owe 1% of our population behind bars.

[DUlover2909]

194. If they are a "psycho" then they are sick and need medical treatment for mental illness.

"Psychos" shouldn't be in general population at all. Michael Vick isn't a "psycho." He's a sadist. He's a sociopath.

[petronius]

218. It's really quite simple: things like 'Zero Tolerance' and 'Three Strikes' and Sheriff Joe style

punishment theatrics and capital punishment are wrong and counterproductive. Treatment, rehabilitation, and integration of offenders into productive society are the way to go.

Unless a person does something that we think is particularly bad - then they should just be killed. :sarcasm:

[DUlover2909]

72. "Fucking nuts" is a wonderful position. Congratz.

[VMI Dem]

94. I wish we could rec posts.

[MADem]

234. +1. nt

[Forkboy]

8. I hope in his first game back he pulls a Joe Theisman.

[DUlover2909]

109. Me too. If he doesn't make serious arrangements to help animals, I wish him the worst.

[5thGenDemocrat]

248. Forkboy, you and I have gone around and around (and around) here

But, on this, I couldn't agree more with you. I hope he gets back out on the field and some defensive lineman spreads him six ways from Sunday. He's a POS and deserves all the bad karma he gets.
John
Saint Francis of Assisi once said (I'm getting senile, so I'll paraphrase) "A man who would deny an animal the shelter of compassion and mercy would do likewise to his fellow man." Vick showed neither compassion nor mercy, so why should I extend the same to him?

[Statistical]

9. So an excon should be denied legitimate employment after serving the sentance prescribed by the law.

If you think the sentence was light then lobby to strengthen it.

Punishment ends when sentence is served.

[armyowalgreens]

13. Except for convicted sex offenders. Punishment never ends.

[Statistical]

44. That is true. I don't have a good answer for that.

Part of it is the high recidivism rate and the danger to society that presents.

[armyowalgreens]

48. The reason for that could be because they are forsaken by society...

Those abandoned by society tend to turn towards deviant actions.

If you call someone a freak long enough, they will start to act according to how you view them.

[Deja Q]

89. Odd. When not being molested by real freaks, the treatment I got as a child by others was freakish.

Explain how I manage to live a mostly normal life...

Scarred to be sure, but I strive to be contributing and productive - I've overcome a hell of a lot - I suspect a lot more, in general or specific terms, that you'd ever be able to contemplate.

And, sometimes, people really are freaks. Just don't ask a child to define what a freak is. Children tend to be malicious by default...

[armyowalgreens]

99. I don't believe I said that applies to all.

But by all means, turn this into something completely irrelevant to my point.

When an already troubled individual is abandoned by society, that individual indulges his or her deviant behavior because that's all he or she knows.

Label someone a sex offender, make it nearly impossible for one to get a home or a job, and he or she will turn back towards the behavior they know best. This happens all the time with criminals. When they are put in an environment that is hospitable, the deviant behavior is likely more manageable.

But I never said that it applies to all criminals or all sex offenders. It's simply a concept.

[DUlover2909]

121. Really? Based on what evidence? Seems anecdotal at first glance.

Just asking. Maybe you could consult one of your books for a reference.

[armyowalgreens]

125. One example could be immigrant movements to the US...

When the Irish moved to the US, they were demonized by others and forced into exclusion. Because of that, violent crime in Irish communities sky-rocketed. That's how organized crime began in the US. These immigrant minority communities were forsaken and, in turn, members of the communities turned to crime.

The same can be seen in poor, minority communities today. They are excluded from the rest of society and turn to deviant acts like organized crime.

[DUlover2909]

149. And again, you provide only your own self as a source.

Sorry, but I don't believe you unless you can support your argument of history with something substantial and verifiable.

[armyowalgreens]

153. Never studied sociology did yuh?

That's okay. I'll try to find some related sources. Unfortunately, I cannot cram my textbook through the computer screen into your lap.

[DUlover2909]

163. No, I didn't study sociology in school.

My coursework wouldn't have allowed it and the institution I attended didn't offer it. It's not about that though, it's about your making of generalization about human behavior.

[armyowalgreens]

174. Labelling theory...

I finally remembered one of the theories I was trying to find.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labelling_theory

[armyowalgreens]

176. Also, Sociology attempts to quantify and categorize human social structure...

If you want to call it "generalizing human behavior", so be it.

[dorkulon]

186. The reason child molesters reoffend is that they are child molesters.

They are as sexually driven as anyone else, but their sexuality is directed toward children. You may as well ask why I keep having sex with adult women.

[armyowalgreens]

196. Notice I said sex offender, not child molester.

Not all sex offenders are the same. They do not commit the same crimes nor do they all suffer from mental illness.

[Deja Q]

87. Nor does it deserve to. Their victims' lives are scarred, and in some cases,

when victims grow older and remember certain incidents, new wounds are created.

I'm thankful one of the two who fondled was about 50 at the time - got to be dead now. As for the other, I don't bother going back for nostalgic trips to my childhood home. If I saw him, it would take a great deal of constraint not to engage the bastard.

And I'll leave it at that. Those pig-bastards deserve NO clemency for what they do. Of ANY sort.

[armyowalgreens]

101. Even with your experience, you cannot speak against all sex offenders...

They are not all the same.

[DUlover2909]

14. LOL. That's a good one.

You must not be a convicted felon in America. There's a bunch of strings attached to convictions, including employment restrictions, gun ownership, access to food stamps for drug felonies in some states, adoption services, access to housing by apartment complexes and home renters, and a lifetime stigma.

[Statistical]

41. Agreed and I think that is part of the problem.

Ending punishment at the sentence is my opinion and is sadly lacking in the US.

So it shouldn't be surprising when many felons return to crime since as you point out the deck is stacked against them.

People wanting to bar Vic from a method of employment he is good at is just sad.

[DUlover2909]

46. He's good at dogfighting rings too. Maybe we should let him go back to that.

[Statistical]

50. Yup once a con always a con. They can't ever be good at anything other than crime. n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

148. Employment restrictions? Please do explain. You're saying I couldn't employ him for whatever wage

I wanted to pay? To do whatever I wanted him to do? For how many hours I thought I needed his services?

[DUlover2909]

222. Yeah. Many states have employment restrictions for felons.

In Texas felons can't do a bunch of things like be policemen, firemen, teachers, doctors, pharmacists, the list goes on. If you wanted to hire Michael Vick to be your pool boy or anything like that, you'd be OK, as a contracted employee. If Michael Vick wants to get a state license to perform a more conventional job then he would have to find a field that accepts convicts.

[Obamanaut]

23. No one is being denied legitimate employment. Vick had a full

scholarship, went to college for a time, dropped out to get the big bucks. Get a job in the field he was pursuing in college, finish the degree part time.

There ARE legitimate jobs other than professional football.

Can't lobby to strengthen sentences, I've read here that lobbyists are evil. Even though individuals lobby, teachers lobby, firemen, policemen, etc - all lobby. Can't lobby. Can't find employment except in football.

[Statistical]

42. Why everything except football?

Obviously he is good at football. It isn't job where the job makes him a greater danger to society (burglar getting job as locksmith, or sex offender working around children).

To deny him this employment would be arbitrary and simply saying he can be successful but not too successful because he is an ex-con after all.

[Obamanaut]

45. There was the suggestion VIck is being denied legitimate

employment. That simply is not true.

[Statistical]

49. Ok denying him THIS form of legitimate employment is not justice.

It simply is revenge or some people not wanting a bad person to be successful.

It is stupid to say he can be employed at anything else except football knowing that is likely the field where HE believes he would be most successful.

The only times employment field are restricted is where the ex-con presents a danger to society which doesn't apply here.

[Raineyb]

110. You don't think he has a chance of any other legitimate employment

As we all know exactly how hard it is for felons to find employment especially black ones. So your statement is more than a bit disingenuous.

[BalancedGoat]

47. I think that's the key point for some people.

"he can be successful but not too successful because he is an ex-con"

Some people seemingly can't handle the idea of and ex-con making a significantly better living than they are.

[Obamanaut]

56. And some people seemingly can't handle the idea of some others

making significantly more money than they do. Some want Vick to play football and regain success/wealth, but don't want others who are willing to work just as hard at other endeavors to make seven figure incomes, and keep it.

Is it because jocks are special?

[mwooldri]

62. What about Martha Stewart? She's did time too...

If Mr. Vick can't go back to American football in any capacity, then Martha Stewart should be booted off our TV screens and she should be banned from any operations in her companies.

Mark.

[DUlover2909]

71. Martha Stewart is her own franchise, She is beholden to no higher corporate authority.

Michael Vick doesn't own the NFL.

[mwooldri]

181. Ms. Stewart doesn't own the TV stations that purchase her shows.

Mr. Vick did something absolutely vile and disgusting, yes. He was tried in a court of law, found guilty and was punished.

All criminals who have been punished need to be rehabilitated.

Whilst I believe that Mr. Vick should not be on any front line NFL team any time soon, I believe he needs to work in the industry which he knows the best. He is financially ruined (filing bankruptcy), and morally ruined. He does not need to be crushed any more.

Plus your comment about Michael Vick not owning the NFL - that's true. What's also true is that he doesn't own the NFL teams. The NFL can say he can play (which they have, with conditions)... but would a team actually take him on to play? My best guess is "no", there are already teams coming out saying that they have no interest in hiring him.

Where the analogy comes in with Martha Stewart is this: Both were convicted of a crime, and both served their punishment. Martha Stewart basically got found guilty of being greedy with money and is back almost stronger than ever. Society finds that her crime was not that distasteful, and as such TV stations and retail firms are purchasing her media and her branded merchandise. Mr. Vick's crime however was deemed by society to be extremely distasteful (and that's putting it mildly) and there are those (you included) who feel that his punishment was not tough enough and want to punish him even further. Society is free to do this if done collectively... it's highly likely that no NFL team will touch him and that may well be his extra punishment: the NFL has said he "can" play, the teams decide whether he "may" play. So far, the Falcons and Giants have certainly come out and said that he may not play with them.

But still... all criminals, big or small need to be rehabilitated.

Throwing another "spanner into the works" I certainly feel that the United States may need to pass some kind of "spent conviction" law - we have people who were convicted of minor felonies in their teens and are stuck in dead end jobs not worthy of their other qualifications in their 40's and 50's - simply because certain companies will not hire anyone without a totally clean criminal record.

[DUlover2909]

206. Michael Vick's offenses are not on par with normal felonies.

Animal cruelty is not punished as severely in the US as it should be because of right wing opposition. Pets are not livestock. We don't breed them for nutrition. We breed them as domestic companions. We all recognize their place within our communities and our families.

For dog-fighting conspirators to subvert out natural and harmonious relationship with certain species' for the purpose of profit and exploitation is an exceptional over-reach of the acceptable human and domestic pet relationship. This activity subverts our cultural values and perverts the standards that mainstream American's can tolerate in functional and productive society.

There. I dumbed it down for you.

[eqfan592]

122. Sounds like your argument is far outside the scope of this conversation. (nt)

[Obamanaut]

177. It seemed like a reasonable answer to the post it was in response

to. I did not mean to attract the attention of the content police.

[DUlover2909]

169. Ex-cons can become filthy rich for all I care.

But Michael Vick needs to support animal right groups if he's gonna play in the NFL.

[DUlover2909]

82. I'm not denying his football career. I'm saying pay animal rights groups out of his salary.

[Statistical]

96. Since there is no current law allowing that, ex post facto is a problem.

Also I don't think criminals that serve their time should be punished more simply because they are visible and/or successful.

Now if Vick as a PR moves wants to donate 10% of his income to SPCA I think that would be smart. For an athlete they are the brand and right now his brand is lacking.

[DUlover2909]

128. You may very well be right about contractual law in this matter.

And I might have to agree with your assessment. The NFL may in fact not be able to enforce any sort of garnishment especially with the Player's Union involved. If that is the case I would deny his return to the NFL outright unless he voluntarily agrees to give half of his after tax revenue to an animal rights group, OF ANY KIND. NOT JUST PETA, geez.

[Hugabear]

126. Why does it have to be the NFL?

There are other football leagues out there, including a brand new one starting this fall - which has expressed interest in having Michael Vick play for the Orlando team.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - I feel no sympathy for a CELEBRITY MILLIONAIRE. Even IF Vick weren't allowed to return to the NFL, I hardly doubt that he would be hurting for income. As a celebrity millionaire, he's in a much better shape than your average convict getting out of prison, who has to deal with the stigma attached to being labeled as an ex-convict.

[bluestateguy]

54. I'm all for legitimate employment

McDonalds is looking for burger flippers.

This asshole should not take the spot of some young quarterback who is not a felon.

[Sgent]

104. Doctor's, Lawyers, Accountants, etc.

wouldn't be able to restart their career after a felony conviction. Given the impact that pro football players have on society, I don't see that this is any different.

[4lbs]

139. Nobody is saying he can't work. I just don't want him in the NFL. He can deliver pizza.

Michael Vick has already shown he can't be responsible when in possession of millions of dollars.

Aside from the dog-fighting, he personally funded illegal gambling.

[spanone]

10. he paid for his crime, what else can he do...i'd never condone what he did.

[zappaman]

11. what he did was horrible

but he did his time. Are you saying that once people go to jail, they should never be allowed to return to the profession where they made a living? If he was a contractor, would you be upset if his contractor license was reinstated? The guy made a HUGE mistake and paid the price. Let him earn a living.

[DUlover2909]

33. He didn't pay the price. Murder for money and sport is irredeamable.

He got laughs and joy watching animals mutilate each other. If you don't get it, you just don't get it.

[eqfan592]

124. No, I'm affraid you don't get it.

Justice is not about revenge, and you want revenge. Because of this, you are no longer able to look at the situation rationally. Prison should be about rehabilitation, not just punishment.

Either way, he's done the time that society has laid out for this crimes. Now it's his turn to prove that he can be a better person for it.

[DUlover2909]

137. And of course, you've never been to prison.

Prison provides no rehabilitation to anyone doing only 18 months. They are considered "short timers" in prison lingo. They buy their commissary soups, watch TV, sip coffee, and sit idly by while the clock ticks, AND THAT'S IT.

I'm all in favor of Michael Vick to "prove that he can be a better person" by remaining an anonymous person and working a regular job. In whatever profession he chooses, he should contribute part of his income to protecting vulnerable animals.

[Flaneur]

182. And you have?

I have. Being in prison IS the punishment. You make it sound like a vacation, but that's hardly the case.

You have vengeance issues. The man has done his time. Now you want to punish him further. I'm sure Michael Vick has noted your outrage and filed it in the appropriate place.

[DUlover2909]

192. Yeah, I have been in prison for dope cases.

Texas Dept. of Criminal Justice. The man has not done his his time. He isn't buried yet. His victims would like to have the time that he has left. He deserves to be ridiculed and ostracized for the rest of his life for his vicious and inhumane brutality.

I have a vengeance issue because his victims can't speak out on their own behalf.

[RollWithIt]

237. Well, since you're a repeat offender drug addict I don't think you should be allowed to work!

You were probably on short time too. That isn't enough punishment. You deserve to wallow in misery for the rest of your life.




I don't really think that way, I hope you have recovered and are doing well. But that is essentially what you are saying.

[DUlover2909]

246. I don't think that way either. Michael Vick can work at an animal shelter if he wants to.

I appreciate your good wishes but my offense is not comparable to Michael Vick's.

[RollWithIt]

249. I still disagree.... He was surrounded by scumbags, and deserves a chance at redemption

I believe redemption stories are important for society.

By the way, I am a very loving dog owner. I think the guy has done his time and will serve a much better good if he is allowed to recover and have a successful life (while advocating good treatment for animals)

[cherokeeprogressive]

150. No, YOU don't get it. Murder is defined as the killing of another HUMAN BEING. n/t

[DUlover2909]

208. So if I come along and kill your dog in your front yard, you'd accept that it's just animal cruelty?

What if I grabbed your pet and cut each of it's legs off right in front of you? Then I slammed it's head on the pavement killing it, after being dismembered and laughed and chuckled and left it there for you to clean up? That's not murder? I don't give one damned shit about your definition.

[bluestateguy]

65. He did his time as far as the law is concerned

I respect that. I really do.

But as to your analogy with being a contractor, indeed if a contractor went to jail for armed robbery and larceny, such a person would not automatically get his license back. Maybe someday, but not immediately. I don't want a contractor traipsing around my house who is a thief or a robber. Same with an elementary school teacher who goes to jail for 5 years for molesting children. After he does his time, will he be welcomed back into the classroom with open arms? Probably never, but certainly not right away.

[armyowalgreens]

12. Not a big fan of the criminal justice system?

He did his time and lost the vast majority of his money.


What more do you want?

Let him back into the NFL.

[DUlover2909]

15. I want the return of the lives he destroyed.

[armyowalgreens]

16. So you live in a fantasy world. Okay.

I live in reality.

[DUlover2909]

30. If I live in a fantasy world why are you responding to me? Am I a phantom?

[armyowalgreens]

34. Good one. You don't literally reside in a fantasy world.

You simply believe you do.

We cannot undo what Vick did. That goes for all crimes. We cannot undo what has already been done.


So do you want to try again?

[Taverner]

17. Well I have a problem with donating to PETA instead of the ASPCA but...

I think he should play

He fucked up - but I do not see him as the Mengele of Dogs, as some others do...

[bbinacan]

18. Fuck PETA

As disgusting as his actions, he did serve his time.

[DUlover2909]

36. No he didn't. He needs to serve time some more.

[bbinacan]

38. So you are judge, jury,

and executioner?

[DUlover2909]

52. I wish. He had high paid lawyers and he got a sweetheart deal. That's how it goes.

His debt to society is far from paid off.

[bsd13]

57. Curious

What law(s) would you cite that were in effect at the time of his crimes which lead you to believe that he was not sentenced according to guidelines and was not appropriately punished?

[DUlover2909]

69. I'm not going to bother citing particular laws.

Depravity and evil done unto innocent animals is not represented properly under current law.

[bsd13]

80. So it's more a matter of opinion

Than legal standing... I certainly respect your opinion because I largely agree but I'm not willing to make an example of someone outside of the law. Change the laws and then apply it against others in the future who might break the new laws.

[DUlover2909]

93. The NFL has their own rules, outside of the laws of the republic.

I am trying to influence people to reject the idea of allowing this sadist back into the fold of privileged society, because an NFL career is just that: a position of respect and privilege.

[bsd13]

95. Ah ok

Thought you were talking about making an example of him by changing the legal system in mid-stream and apply the changes retroactively to him.

Sorry my bad.

[dysfunctional press]

143. yes, he did. learn a little about the law.

:eyes:

[DUlover2909]

51. Just like how Scooter Libby served his time?

Injustice is part of the fabric of privileged America. It goes with the territory. "He did his time." That's a freaking joke. He needs to do his time serving his victims, not sipping commissary coffee and watching TV.

[Sebastian Doyle]

75. Fuck Michael DICK

That son of a bitch needs to be locked in a 8 x 10 kennel with 5 rabid pit bulls. And if he survives that, let him be a Wal Mart greeter.

[DUlover2909]

98. Survives? LOL

:toast:

[Sebastian Doyle]

100. Maybe his gambling buddies will bet on him?

I wouldn't. Not against 5 rabid pits! :evilgrin:

[Goblinmonger]

112. Not sure what those two have to do with each other

other than a portion of his salary going to a group you seem to not like.

[proud patriot]

19. it's the NFL fans that need to speak out against Vick

I don't watch football ..If I did I would start
being very vocal about Vick.

[DUlover2909]

97. I have to disagree. It's not about football. It's about animal cruelty.

Should we allow animal torturers and abusers achieve positions of privilege and respect without a true commitment to a full reversal of their previous wrongdoings? I am seeking real contrition, not just some "time served" bullshit.

[paulsby]

20. let him play

hey, i'm a law and order guy, but he served his time, paid his dues. nobody believes the NFL is some sort of confederation of saintly perfection, after all. it's a bunch of talented athletes, of various moral qualities.

i think him giving half his paycheck to PETA is lame. there are many much more respectable charities than PETA, who are often fringe, and ridiculous.

but that's a tangential issue.

let him play. he did his time. he should be able to move on.

[DUlover2909]

77. He can move on to flipping burgers if he can find the employment.

[paulsby]

178. if he still has the talent and chops

to play in the NFL, then that's where he should be. the NFL should be a marketplace of the best players. not the best players that meet some arbitrary standard of morality.

vick did an evil thing. he was punished for it. he PAID HIS FRIGGING DUES.

but i'll admit i don't have some sort of pollyanna view of pro sports. frankly, i could not care less for example, if they use performance enhancing drugs. i think they improve the game and in most pro sports testing is a joke anyway.

let's agree that vick is a despicable person. so what? do we ban despicable people from the NFL? i would say no

[DUlover2909]

195. Yeah. We should "ban despicable people from the NFL"

I can't believe I have to say that it's so freaking obvious.

[greguganus]

252. Let him get a job running with the bulls in Spain. He could make millions & I'd buy a ticket. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

21. When a certain sort people are wrongfully arrested, they shouldn't have been so tumultuous...

When the same sort of person is guilty and serves their sentence, they need to be punished even MORE.

This, I have learned, is what DUers are like.

[Forkboy]

24. I think it has more to with a certain type of person who would do this.

:shrug:

[BlooInBloo]

27. Definitely a gross pic, no matter how many times it gets posted...

For which Vick served his time. DUers just want more, more, more.

[Forkboy]

32. As I've said previously, I think Vick has the right to play in the NFL.

I also think the teams have the right to never let him do so, which is the course I hope (but doubt) they'll all take. Playing in any sports league isn't a right. Football is far from the only thing he can do with his life. Legally, the NFL really has no recourse but to reinstate Vick. Now it's up to each team to decide if he's worth the PR nightmare he's sure to bring.

DUers just want more, more, more.

I won't deny that racism plays a part in some of the Vick backlash. I've seen people lock onto any story where a black person does something wrong so they can piggyback the issue and mask their racism behind. However, certain crimes really seem to pack a visceral punch, and animal cruelty is usually right near the top of that list for many people. Crimes against children and animals tend to bring out some serious hate, as well they should. Vick deserves all the vitriol and hate directed his way. While he has the right to gainful employment, and I agree he has served the time he was given, that doesn't mean anyone has to greet him with open arms, and it doesn't automatically mean that his race is the driving factor in this hate.

[BlooInBloo]

35. "it doesn't automatically mean that his race is the driving factor" - it never does...

and it never is. This, too, I have learned from DU.

[Forkboy]

39. Never is your word, not mine.

[DUlover2909]

88. His time will never be served.

These innocent animals couldn't cry for help. They couldn't tell their story. That's why this sort of evil is beyond the pale. Even little children can seek help. These innocent animals had no understanding that their "caretakers" were wicked monsters that had no intention other than to see them brutally mutilated. That's what makes Vick's crime especially heinous. 18 months is jail? I did 15 months in jail for selling drugs. There's not a single person that could point to me and say, "That guy harmed me. He victimized me and I was totally innocent." These animals were nothing but sources of sadistic and devilish delight for Michael Vick. I won't let it be forgotten. He's as evil as any Nazi death camp holocaust perpetrator. You can look the other way but, I will not ever.

[armyowalgreens]

114. You don't really seem to give a damn about facts or logic...

Anyone who compares Michael Vick to the SS is a moron in my book.

[DUlover2909]

119. Well your books are really interesting and equally noteworthy.

Thanks for playing.

[armyowalgreens]

120. At least it's nice to know that you follow Godwin's Law.

[Blackhatjack]

22. As much as I hate what he did, he COULD do a lot to change public opinion IF....

... he were to SINCERELY and without reservation speak out against his past conduct and give his TIME and MONEY to support groups moving to crack down on and prosecute those who engage in dogfighting, and especially those who finance it and reap the profits.

IMHO there is nothing he can say which makes his past actions all right, and paves the way for him to be welcomed back into the public driven NFL. But if he is truly remorseful, and consistently works to put an end to dogfighting there is a place for him in society other than just being a convict and an outcast.

[DUlover2909]

61. That's what I wanna see. Real contrition.

I want to see a total reversal of his past behavior.

[Critters2]

74. Don't hold your breath. Anyone who can do such despicable things to living creatures,

isn't likely to sprout a conscience this late in the game.

[flvegan]

25. I'd let him slide if half his paycheck went to me.

Otherwise, fuck him.

[Algorem]

26. he was gonna write a book

[W_HAMILTON]

28. He's already lost something like 40 million.

I think that's the number I heard on ESPN.

That, plus his jail time, is plenty of restitution, in my opinion.

He's going to get protested for the rest of his career, if he even ends up with a career.

I believe that justice has been served. I know a lot of people may jump on me for that, but jail time + losing that amount of money is enough punishment in my mind.

[DUlover2909]

81. Because lost money is the same as lost innocent lives?

[seabeyond]

29. i wont advocate money to peta for any reason. further, regardless of like or dislike for guy, i

believe a person pays his time, he is done.

so no

i dont agree with you on either count

[the other one]

31. I love animals. I forgive Michael Vick. 11 million healthy pets

11 million healthy pets are euthanized every year in this country. Too many people eat meat with every meal when they shouldn't eat any at all. Meat is murder. Our entire society runs on the exploitation of animals, from food to clothing to entertainment to medicine...

What Vick did was heinous, but in the context of a heinous society I resist the temptation to be shocked at his behavior. It is up to him to come to grips with what he did.

He has no credibility as a spokesman, his reputation is forever tarnished, and he was not a great quarterback. Chances are he doesn't last long anyway.

[DUlover2909]

76. Good attitude. He should be forgiven. But I want to see real pennance.

His crimes pale in comparison to other crimes. But to allow him to return to the NFL without serious strings attached? I don't think so.

[Alamuti Lotus]

37. I don't mind really, many defensive tacklers are dog lovers

On top of that, he's rusty from time away -- he'll get his ass kicked out there.

[DUlover2909]

43. I had that same notion as an afterthought.

I played football in college I would cheapshot a chump like Vick at the earliest convenience.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

53. Live by the personal foul, die by the personal foul

BTDT and found it some what satisfying

[UTUSN]

40. K&R #2 n/t

[bsd13]

55. PETA?!?

That's the most disgusting group to possibly give it to. They are NOT advocates of animals by any stretch of the imagination. I'd rather see him forced to bankroll Rush Limbaugh than PETA. And no I'm not kidding. PETA is vile.

As far as should he have been reinstated. Of course. We in America live in a society that once you pay your dues, once you do your time your past should NOT follow you around anymore. If you think this is wrong then talk to your state representatives and see if they're willing to work to bring an amendment to a vote in order to change your state's constitution. With that said while I believe he has every right to return to football I, and the rest of the world, have a greater right not to watch him or support any team that might sign him.

[DUlover2909]

68. OK what's so bad about PETA? I challenge you on your assertion

that they are "the most disgusting group" etc. Really? The MOST disgusting? What about the KKK? or The RNC? Provide some facts if you have any.

"We in America live in a society that once you pay your dues, once you do your time your past should NOT follow you around anymore." Sorry but that's not the America in which I live. My country just loves to persecute offenders far beyond the prison walls.

I can't really take your post seriously even though I would like to.

[bsd13]

85. In the arena of animal rights

They are disgusting. This has nothing to do with the RNC or the KKK. I'll agree the KKK is disgusting. I don't agree with much of the RNC's position on issues but I don't consider them disgusting. As far as why PETA is disgusting... do a little research into how many animals they actually save versus killing. As an animal lover I can say it is atrocious. Do a google search on PETA's position on killing animals vs. finding them homes. It's very telling. I'd post a link but not sure regarding the rules if I can or not.

And finally - "Sorry but that's not the America in which I live. My country just loves to persecute offenders far beyond the prison walls." - Yet you seem to be advocating the same thing in regards to Michael Vick. Persecution beyond the prison walls. Why?

[yewberry]

136. You can post links.

However, the ones you would find would likely all be based upon lies from the Center for Consumer Freedom.

PETA is not a shelter and they are not in the business that you think they are--they provide euthanasia services for communities that can't afford to humanely euthanize their unwanted animals, and that's why their kill numbers are so high. No one else will do it.

[bsd13]

224. The business of peta

is to work towards the end of all companion pets. That's the business I know them to be in.

[flvegan]

225. No it isn't. n/t

[bsd13]

226. Really?

This is from the PETA site -

The earliest fossils that resemble the bones of modern dogs are about 12,000 years old, so we know that humans’ fascination with domesticated wolves began at least that long ago. About 5,000 years ago, Egyptians became the first to tame cats, whom they used to control the rodent population. Since then, the breeding and care of cats and dogs has exploded into a love affair, a sport, and a booming business. This international pastime has created an overpopulation crisis, and as a result, every year, millions of unwanted animals suffer at the hands of abusers, languish in shelters, and are euthanized. Adopting a cat or dog from a shelter and providing a loving home is a small but powerful way to prevent some of this suffering. The most important thing that animal guardians can do is to spay or neuter their animals and avoid buying animals from breeders or pet stores, which contribute to the overpopulation crisis.

http://www.peta.org/about/faq-comp.asp>Source

If everyone were to do as PETA suggests, that is:

a) Spay and neuter their animals

b) Avoid buying from breeders or pet stores

What exactly do you think the outcome would be? I'll tell you. The breeders and pet stores would go out of business and if everyone spays and neuters their pets eventually the supply would "dry up". If that's not the end of companion pets I'm not sure what is.

[Ignis]

228. Nice strech, Plasticman!

I'm sure you also believe that PETA wants to completely eradicate cows, pigs, and chickens, right? Because if people ate less meat, all those animals would just disappear!

Again, I'm miffed by the lack of a :facepalm: emote.

[flvegan]

229. Laughable. n/t

[bsd13]

230. Answer the question

If people stopped buying from breeders and pet stores and all animals were spayed and neutered what exactly would be the outcome?

[flvegan]

242. If everybody, tomorrow, spayed and nutered their pets

(which won't/can't happen) and if everybody, tomorrow, stopped buying from breeders and pet stores (which can't/won't happen) then 10 or 12 years from now, we'd probably have to start rescuing dogs and cats from other countries.

Your analogy is like suggesting that anyone that believes in curbing the out of control population of people wish for the human race to die out. Therefore, as I said, laughable.

Question answered.

[Critters2]

235. So, you oppose spaying and neutering,

and support selling dogs in pet stores. The stupid. It hurts!

[bsd13]

240. No, that's not what I said

and not what I inferred. Until 2 years ago when I moved I used to volunteer 20 hours a week at a humane society. I know the toll of unwanted animals on a community. I've hauled the dogs and cats in to be euthanized and then packed their bodies off to the crematorium in the back. I've had to explain to the family who lost their pet and came looking for it just after we had put it down. Their dog's body was still warm.

All that to say no I don't support selling dogs in pet stores. Because 99.9% of their animals come from puppy/kitten mills. Breeders on the other hand are an entirely different issue. The vast majority of them take very good care of their animals, and for the most part treat them as a part of the family.

What I oppose is people saying that a group like PETA doesn't want to end companion animals when the ONLY possible outcome to spaying and neutering ALL animals and not giving breeders a reason to continue breeding is exactly that.

[Critters2]

241. You had to do all those things because of pet overpopulation,

which is caused by people not spaying and neutering, and by breeders producing more dogs when there aren't homes for those already here. The fact that they treat dogs nicely while they're overproducing isn't really relevant. I might feel differently when the shelters are empty. Ask me how I feel when that happens.

[Critters2]

233. And you know this how?

Because, you see, I'm a member of PETA and live with 4 companion animals. So, I think you've misunderstood something.

[flvegan]

144. Stupid post. Thanks for the ignorance.

Research is something you should look further into understanding.

[Ignis]

188. Wow, another low-count shill for the CCF?

Color me surprised!

[bsd13]

223. oh I forgot

We need to have at least 1000 posts around here to be legitimate. Until then the best you can hope for is to be a "shill"

[Ignis]

227. Nah, you can certainly be a high-count shill, as well.

So just keep posting! :)

And be sure not to respond to any substantive claims regarding the CCF!

[bsd13]

236. I see what you say is true

1) I have no idea who the ccf is

2) Even if I did know who the ccf is your accusation that I somehow work for the ccf is entirely unfounded and therefor requires no response.

[Ignis]

245. Google is hard, eh?

Fair enough.

[MrSlayer]

58. No, giving money to PETA would only make me more upset.

If he is to play, and there is no guarantee he will, I hope he goes to a division rival so I can really let him have it.

[Skittles]

59. I don't care if he plays football

as long as he rots in hell

[mwooldri]

60. Ok, how do you rehabilitate a NFL football "star" ??

I don't think Mr. Vick should play NFL professional American football again but he could make a good assistant coach, out of the spotlight, training youth and the B teams and the like.

I wouldn't give money to PETA, nor ALF because I perceive them to be violent organisations (ALF *is* violent). Definitely *SPCA or Humane Society or someone like that who uses non-violent means to get their point across.

If he did play again, then yes, large continuing donations to SPCA or the like would mitigate it big time, along with appearing in anti dog fighting adverts.

Mark.

[Maru Kitteh]

63. I don't think he should be allowed to play in the NFL under any circumstances.

I think all violent criminals and wife/child/animal abusers should be shown the door, permanently.

Just as baseball kicked people out for life for gambling, the NFL needs to clean up it's act by getting rid of it's violent criminals.

[JANdad]

64. +1

[ProgressiveProfessor]

92. The actions were taken for different reasons

The concern is that betting on baseball will influence conduct in the field. Animal cruelty does not have the same issue.

[Maru Kitteh]

116. Oh I understand. Money > humanity.

[petronius]

220. Actually, you missed the poster's point entirely

Gambling is related to baseball, so the bans there were rational. Vick's crimes were not related to his job. So, if he is out of jail and entitled to work, there is no rational or legitimate reason to exclude him from one particular job.

[JVS]

67. He did his time

[DUlover2909]

73. No he didn't. His time will have been served when he's laid to rest.

His crimes and sins are eternal.

[Raineyb]

102. Wow! THere are murderers and rapists who don't even get that kind of time.

I think there are some priority issues on this board.

[DUlover2909]

138. Yeah those guys actually do get the same time.

They are never forgiven. Their penance is a life of paying for their crimes.

[jeffrey_X]

190. Good, thoughtout, objective response...

What laws should he be living by? Yours?

[DUlover2909]

203. My feelings on this issue are NOT objective.

I'm arguing from a purely subjective and visceral outrage to the current state of this monster's circumstances. He should have been fed to the remaining pit bulls that survived. Objectivity isn't a concern of mine. I'm speaking out for his victims.

[JonLP24]

79. He'll be doing some work with the humane society

Not some f'ing PSA, some actual real community work and according to the HS president it won't be some one and done type of deal. I own two dogs but he served his time and was released on good behavior and I don't have any reason to believe he will go back to what he done before. Not playing in the NFL wasn't part of the sentence so I have no problem with him playing and he'll be suspended going in.

[undeterred]

83. Yeah, because the men of the NFL are such paragons of virtue

that he won't fit in.

[DUlover2909]

106. Drugs, steroids, DUI, and other offenses simply do not compare to willfull cruelty.

18 months is a paltry sentence that any street hood would tell you they could do standing on their head. Michael Vick looks the same now as when he started his prison term. Do the animals he victimized look the same?

[Goblinmonger]

111. Would you argue that deer hunters should not be allowed in the NFL?

or is it just dogs that you fight for?

[DUlover2909]

147. OMFG. Seriously? Do Deer hunters breed deer for fighting and then have gambling parties?

I've never heard of that "sport". What a stupid question.

[Naturyl]

91. He is a horrible person, but he did his time.

He is entitled to play, if the NFL will have him.

He is not entitled to our respect, and he will never have mine.

[DUlover2909]

103. His time will never be served.

The innocent animals in which were entrusted to his care will never receive justice. What if it was your dog or cat that he tortured and mutilated for his jolly fancy? He laughed while his and others' animals were hanged from ropes, starved, and sent to die unspeakable deaths in a fighting ring.

[armyowalgreens]

105. What is justice?

What do you think justice truly is?

[DUlover2909]

113. Robocop said, "Justice is when all the laws are enforced."

Or something like that. Justice for me would be a real, certifiable attempt by an offender to correct his wrongs, serve a commensurate penance, and reverse his negative behavior 100%.

In the case of Michael Vick's murders, I would say that serving his jail time and losing money is the first step. I think his jail time should have been longer, but since it isn't, I would say that for the rest of his life he should contribute every penny possible from any further revenue to protecting innocent animals and pets across the world in whatever capacity that he is able.

[armyowalgreens]

115. So if someone can right their wrongs and change there life without jail, that is still justice...

right?

The reality of the situation is that you don't want justice. You want vengeance. And they are anything but similar.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5802959

[DUlover2909]

130. I didn't say anything of the kind in that response.

You asked me about justice and I did my best to define what I think is justice. It included penance and redemption. I don't really see how you misinterpreted that.

[armyowalgreens]

132. You want what has been done to be undone.

Which is absolutely delusional.

You have made it perfectly clear in this thread that you don't give a damn about justice. At least, you put it behind vengeance.

[DUlover2909]

152. Is that really all that hard to understand?

I was asked what I want. I want there to be flowing streams of milk and honey and world peace forever. It was a silly and loaded question. I wasn't asked what I expect or what I would like to do about the problem.

[armyowalgreens]

156. It is not a loaded question. I really want to know what you think should be done...

Because you clearly believe that you know what should be done.

[DUlover2909]

164. I've already made it clear what I want to be done in the orginal post.

[Naturyl]

133. Like I said, he is a horrible person.

But he was tried and sentenced, and he served his time.

Being released doesn't erase his guilt. He is still guilty and will always be guilty. But his sentence has been served.

[DUlover2909]

142. I'm not saying he should be sent back to prison. But forgiven? Already?

Not by a long shot. But I actually would like to see him go back to prison anyway.

[Goblinmonger]

107. I have been a vegetarian (for animal rights reasons) for 20 years and I don't care

What he did to the dogs is no worse than what the vast majority of our population does to animals all the time. Just because we choose dogs as pets in this society means nothing. PLEASE NOTE: I'm not saying everyone should go to jail for eating meat. I'm saying that it is bizarre that we pick dogs to get protection that chickens and cows don't. Vick served his time and if some team wants/needs him on the field and fans are fine with that, go for it. We have wife beaters, rapists, and plenty of other people playing in the NFL (and I'm an NFL fan), this certainly isn't worse than that.

[DUlover2909]

117. That's not the point at all.

If Michael Vick ran a dog meat farm I wouldn't have any problem with it. It's legal. It's for food. It's (humane)?

He ran a dog-fighting/gambling enterprise. These innocent animals are specifically bred and conditioned for the bloodsport and amusement of gamblers and onlookers.

The meat wasn't used for nutrition, but for a vile and sadistic platform upon which to profit and derive ghoulish pleasure.

[Goblinmonger]

108. Dupity Dupe n/t

[eqfan592]

118. He did the time for the crime.

If we are going to promote the idea of prison being there to rehabilitate people instead of just punish them, then we have to give him another chance. To do otherwise is hypocritical, IMHO.

[armyowalgreens]

127. The reality is that many people don't give a damn about justice...

All they want is vengeance. If justice takes place, it is purely by accident.

[DUlover2909]

129. It's not only about revenge, but that's part of it. I'm just keeping it real.

It's about penance and deterrence. It's about making individual changes and societal changes.

[armyowalgreens]

131. It should never be about vengeance. If you think it is, you are dead wrong.

There is no doubt in my mind that people want vengeance. Just because people want it does not mean it is right.


You should deter people by showing the ugly nature of their actions. Not by scaring them into submission. That doesn't actually work all that well.


The "deterrent" argument was used to justify capital punishment. But the numbers don't lie. States without capital punishment do not show a higher rate of crime. In fact, in many states it's the exact opposite.

The reality is that most criminals are not thinking about the consequences of their actions while they commit a crime.

[DUlover2909]

134. I'll accede to some of your points regarding deterrence and vengeance.

You state a few simple platitudes that sound wonderful, but they don't accomplish anything with regard to applying harsher punishments of animal abusers, torturers, and murderers. The deterrence argument was misused for the purpose of promoting capital punishment, which is an entirely different issue. This issue is about overt cruelty. It's not about robbery, self defense, nutrition for survival, or any other arguable case for killing a living being. That's the distinction. The sadistic and wanton murder of an innocent animal for profit and pleasure is nothing but pure evil for no purpose other than evil. Are you a pet owner? How would you feel if your pet came into Michael Vick's possession and was subjected to this sort of wickedness?

[armyowalgreens]

145. Michael Vick grew up in a housing project in a drug and crime riddled city.

He grew up in the ghetto. It's not unreasonable to assume that many of his shortcomings, today, came from his early life experiences.

Does that make what he did right? Absolutely not. It simply means that his views on dog fighting were, at one point, different than ours.

If the point of justice is to right the wrongs while also seeking the most beneficial outcome for each person in society, we should be trying to change the way Michael Vick thinks. Not punishing him in jail or keeping him from doing what he wants to do.

And we most certainly should not be labeling him as "evil". Evil doesn't actually exist. It's nothing more than a term used to evoke emotional reactions. I don't subscribe to religious dogma. If you do, that is extremely unfortunate.


If my dog was part of this story, I would feel the exact same way. But it doesn't matter what answer I give to your question. You've already answered that question in your mind. You didn't ask me that question for an answer. You asked it to prove your "point".

[DUlover2909]

155. Was Michael Vick the only person to grow up under such circumstances?

And I do not mean to imply that I agree with your assertion that he grew up under any particular circumstances since you don't provide any evidence of your assertion.

[armyowalgreens]

162. What a stupid question to ask me. No, he was not the only person.

How is that relevant?

Do ALL persons who grow up in violent, murderous, crime infested neighborhoods become violent murderers and drug addicts? NO. But some will.

This is basic sociology that you clearly never learned. Have you ever heard the phrase "You are a product of your environment"???

As for a source, it's widely available all over the internet. I heard his story on ESPN.

http://www.askmen.com/celebs/men/sports/55_michael_vick.html

"Michael Dwayne Vick was born on June 26, 1980, in Newport News, a town near Norfolk, Virginia. A port town, Newport News had fallen on hard times during Vick's childhood, and Vick's personal experience was full of hardship. Vick's mother, Brenda, was only 16 when he was born, and his father, Michael Boddie, was 17. The two had already had a daughter before Michael Vick, and would have another two children before marrying in 1985. Michael and his siblings saw little of their father, who was in the army and later worked long hours in the shipyards. Michael's mother worked at Kmart and drove a school bus while she raised her children."


From wiki

"Vick is second of four children (including older sister Christina ("Niki") and younger siblings Marcus and Courtney) born in Newport News, Virginia, to Brenda Vick and Michael Boddie, then unmarried teenagers.<1> His mother worked two jobs, obtained some public financial assistance, and had help from her parents, while his father worked long hours in the shipyards as a sandblaster and spray-painter.<2> They were married when Michael was about five years old, but the children elected to continue to use their "Vick" surname. The family lived in the "Ridley Circle Homes," a public housing project in a financially depressed and crime-ridden neighborhood located in the East End section of the port city. It is an area known in hip hop culture by the slang names "Bad News" or "Bad Newz" according to the Urban Dictionary. A 2007 newspaper article published in the Richmond Times-Dispatch noted "not much changed" by observations of local people almost ten years after Michael Vick left. One resident said that there were drug dealing, drive-by shootings and other killings in the neighborhood, then suggested that sports were a way out and a dream for many.<3>
In a 2001 interview, Vick told the Newport News Daily Press that when he was 10 or 11, "I would go fishing even if the fish weren't biting, just to get out of there" and away from the violence and stress of daily life in the projects. Even though the area is, by all accounts, troubled, several people interviewed did not believe that dog fighting was a local activity.<3>"

[DUlover2909]

167. Man that is just not convincing of anything at all.

That's some anecdotal reference to his troubled past that has nothing to do with his adult life. Why don't you post an article about how privileged he was and how he gamed and sported innocent animals for his pleasure? That would indicate some evidence of his disposition after the hard times had past. That reference doesn't differ from millions of other people that don't graduate to superstardom and supercruelty and greed. I'm not buying that argument.

[armyowalgreens]

173. It's becoming pretty clear that you simply don't give a shit about facts.

Not convincing? What was I trying to convince you of? I'm stating that he was raised in a troubled environment and that could be why he has turned to deviant things.

"That's some anecdotal reference to his troubled past that has nothing to do with his adult life. "

Oh Jesus Christ. Do you know anything?

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_association

You've already said that you don't have any background in sociology. Yet you are in here running your mouth like you think you have a PhD in the subject.

Just because he made millions of dollars and lived an extravagant life does not mean that he left his personality or mindset behind. Money does not make a person.


What you are not buying into is basic tenet of sociology. You are literally denying what scientists and sociologists have studied for decades.

[DUlover2909]

202. I know this: Michael Vick is an evil, sadistic piece of shit.

I wouldn't want to see him become a successful football star any more than I would want to see Klansmen become powerful CEO's of American industry. The fact is that I don't care why he's evil. I don't care about what made him a sociopath. I care about his victims. You seem to care more about the pseudoscience of sociology than the reality that many of his innocent victims were IN FACT murdered by Michael Vick for his despotic jollies.

You can insult my intelligence all you want. That doesn't change the facts.

[DainBramaged]

123. This happened 35 miles down the road from PETA headquarters and ALL they did

was grandstand while the ASPCA found HOMES and shelter for the animals and found Vets to help the injured and euthanize the badly injured and vicious ones.

PETA did shit, they shouldn't get a dime. Look it up, I am right.


Vick's admitted killing of dogs, in various grotesque, bizarre, and arguably psychopathic ways. Drowning. Slamming to the ground. Hanging. Electrocution via the attachment of electrodes to testicles.

PETA. As we've noted from Day One, the Vick scandal should be a major embarrassment to the media-hungry animal rights organization. Vick's "Bad Newz Kennels" set up shop and operated for more than five years in Surry County, Virginia--barely 35 miles from PETA's headquarters in Norfolk. And, the group's claims about its "national" focus are no excuse. During the same period that Vick ran his dog-fighting operation (2002-2007), PETA staffers were involved in at least two, local animal-rights cases which prove that the organization has misplaced priorities, and is more adept at media manipulation than actually preventing animal cruelty. While PETA reps ran for the cameras--and tried to use the Vick case for their own benefit--the ASPCA did the real work, assisting federal officials in their investigation. The ASPCA remains at the forefront of efforts to stop dog-fighting while PETA is preoccupied with staging media events.

http://formerspook.blogspot.com/2007/08/winners-and-losers-ookie-plea-deal.html

[MellowDem]

135. Nobody else who serves their time

is asked similar things of them when they try to return to the workforce. And that is exactly what this is. Sure, it's a public career, which is why so many are saying these kind of things, but it's incredibly non-progressive to think that those who have served their time deserve more punishment afterwards.

I've heard Vick is around 4 million in debt so I'm guessing football will be his only way to pay it off short of a book deal.

And it's not even known if he will be picked up by any NFL team. And any team that does pick him up will no doubt suffer in PR and maybe even ticket sales. Not to mention how Vick would be greeted by fans or other players. His actions will continue to haunt him as it is.

[Aragorn]

160. shoulda thought

of this. Teams with "animal" mascots - no. Others - OK, maybe - he still has to try out.

Patriots, Jets, Browns, Steelers, Cowboys (this is a close call though), Texans, Titans, Chargers, Raiders, Chiefs, Redskins, Packers, Vikings, Saints, Buccaneers, 49ers. No, not the Bills - they are the "Buffalo" Bills.

Any other teams would be poor taste.

[MellowDem]

165. The only team I can see taking him...

is the Oakland Raiders. But who knows, maybe I'll be surprised. I'm just glad my Bears finally have a quarterback (knock on wood) after several decades that they won't have to think about sullying their name for Vick. ;-)

[DUlover2909]

213. GOOD! That's what I am aiming for. PR Hell for Michael Vick.

The NFL is not "the workforce." That's a designation reserved for regular shlubs like me. The NFL offers it's players positions of luxury and privilege that's not available to normal people.

His debtor's can eat the cost and write it off as a bad debt.

It's "non-progressive" to accept a criminal justice system that only asks murderers to serve 18 months in jail.

[dysfunctional press]

140. fuck peta- they're a bunch of loons.

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dysfunctional press]

166. ...

:eyes:

:yawn:

[4lbs]

141. I don't want him in the NFL. Let him work doing something else. Delivering pizza.

Michael Vick has already shown he can't be responsible when in possession of millions of dollars.

Aside from the dog-fighting, he personally funded illegal gambling.

[Aragorn]

157. He has paid his debt

get off it. There's a lot worse issues including worse people playing in pro sports. The NFL is just another corporation, dig? As long as a person doesn't commit a crime, or has paid their debt, they can try out. I wouldn't spend my money on NFL tickets, personally.

[DUlover2909]

158. How can a person repay the debt of murder?

[Aragorn]

161. vegan?

Depends on the sentence.

[DUlover2909]

168. Nonsense. There's nobody in Pro Football that is similar to Michael Vick in his criminalty.

Vegan? huh?

[IrishBuckeye]

171. Ray Lewis was present during a double murder

Guilty of obstruction of justice.

[TankLV]

170. sorry - we don't want that fuck in Vegas either...

[IrishBuckeye]

172. I hope the Browns pick him up, just for the 'Dawg Pound' references /nm

The Dawg Pound is the name of the bleacher section behind the east end zone in Cleveland Browns Stadium, the home field of the Cleveland Browns. -wiki

[dorkulon]

187. I didn't want to laugh, but I did.

I believe you have misused the /nm tag, however.

[excess_3]

175. Vick should be BANNED for LIFE

from participating in PETA.

[DUlover2909]

201. I think Vick is a miserable, vile, piece of feces but if he changes his ways

that should be a good thing. I don't want to see him play in the NFL, but I don't mind that he endorses PETA now.

[ecstatic]

179. PETA wants Vick to be their spokesman. What do you think about that? nt

[DUlover2909]

200. I think that's a great start.

:applause:

[Romulox]

180. The NFL gave Vick the absolute MINIMUM punishment it could've given...

After all, Vick couldn't play in the NFL when he was incarcerated. All this talk upthread about "the punishment ending after the time is served" is more nonsense from our amateur legal department; the NFL and the government are two distinct entities, and there is no principle that says that the standards for playing in the NFL should be the same as the standards for not being incarcerated. It's a soft-headed argument. :eyes:

[DUlover2909]

199. I know and I bashed my head all night fighting with those dilletantes.

:hi:

[teachableseconds]

183. I agree...PETA's main concern is saving animals and anyone perturbed by their antics

doesn't understand the art of publicity and how there's no such thing as the bad type!

There still are people out there who cannot fathom that dog fighting is evil.

[DUlover2909]

198. There's not a damn thing that PETA does that's wrong.

They stand up for their values and I can't think of one thing wrong with their value system.

[ShortnFiery]

184. I will not forgive him until he reveals some sort of remorse. There's no sign of that ATT.

I grieve for his victims.

The key to a person's soul is often revealed by the way he/she treats defenseless animals.

[DUlover2909]

197. Abso-freaking-lutely. Spot on.

That's the crux. He's revealed himself as fundamentally cruel and evil.

[Spike89]

185. From an awareness and justice standpoint...hope he plays

Nothing PETA or any other group has done can match the impact of the Vick case. It sickened almost everyone and brought the cruelness and inhumane practices of dog fighters into the light. No matter how "successful" Vick might be in his comeback, the reality is he will forever be linked with his crime.

In other words, he could go flip burgers and everyone would forget about him or he can get back on the stage (if he has the skill) and remind us as long as he's there that he could have been so much more. The burgers scenario is neutral, but there can be a huge benefit to the entire animal rights movement if the second scenario plays out.

I won't root for him to become a star again, but I really hope to see him on the sidelines so the announcers will be forced to talk about him and what happened, and why his career was derailed.

[DUlover2909]

193. I think that's a very astute observation that I had not considered.

:thumbsup:

[jehovas_waitress]

189. Humane Society will 'own' Vick for many years to come.

Look for community service and lots of PSAs as part of his agreement. There will be no greater champion of animals than Vick going forward.

[Critters2]

215. What I don't understand is why anyone would listen to Michael Vick

about such issues. Is a coerced message really effective?

I think he should spend the rest of his life flipping burgers or driving a truck, or otherwise fading into obscurity.

[DUlover2909]

217. I want to see him give MONEY to SPCA and PETA

or whatever other organization.

[Critters2]

221. Yeah, but he's run his life so badly that, on top of his criminal record,

he's bankrupt. What a loser.

[Baclava]

191. Vick gets 2 years for killing dogs and Stallworth gets 30 days for killing a man.

yeah - that's fair

Discuss...

[Spider Jerusalem]

204. So, do you not believe in the concept of criminal rehabilitation?

He's served his sentence in full and isn't likely to do the sort of thing that got him locked up again. I would hope that would be enough.

[DUlover2909]

209. You can hope all you want. Prison doesn't do rehab. They just lock folks up.

[Toasterlad]

205. Like It Or Not, Michael Vick Served His Time.

You don't get to decide how he should be - you'll pardon the expression - hounded for the rest of his life.

[DUlover2909]

210. Yeah I do. I get to decide how he'll be hounded for the rest of his life.

Because I get to do the hounding.

[Toasterlad]

214. Really? You'll NEVER Meet Michael Vick Face to Face.

You'll have absolutely NO impact on his life whatsoever.

[DUlover2909]

216. Thanks. I wish I had a crystal ball too.

:P

[BlooInBloo]

207. Clearly the only reasonable response to Vick being employed in his chosen profession...

is self-immolation.

[DUlover2909]

211. I don't really see how that's clear, but OK. I'm down with that option.

[Chisox08]

212. The Humane Society is a better choice

than those wack jobs at PETA

[DUlover2909]

219. I have no problem with any animal rights organization.

I don't consider PETA wack jobs at all. PETA is a very liberal organization and the people that belong to it have very positive intentions. To call them wack jobs is to borrow a repuke talking point and over-generalization.

[RollWithIt]

231. NEt Profit, I would say 20% to the Humane Society sounds reasonable... PETA, NO!!!!

PETA spends most of its money on killing cats & dogs in their shelters and the rest on over the top marketing campaigns.

[MADem]

232. FUCK NO. PETA made hay on the murder of Doctor Tiller. FUCK PETA. nt

[Seldona]

238. I would rather see it go to an organization that actually accomplishes something.

Like the ASPCA, or donating it to shelters, etc. An organization that works with animals hands on. They sure as hell could use the money. I guess I could see him playing if he agreed to that. It would help millions of animals.

[Critters2]

239. PETA Victories, 2009...

http://www.peta.org/about/victories_date.asp?selected_year=2009

PETA accomplishes a lot.

[AngryAmish]

243. PETA has killed many, many more dogs than Vick ever dreamed of

PETA is like a Final Solution for pooches.

[GA_ArmyVet]

244. Really,

Were you this up in arms abnout Donte Stallworth, or Ray Lewis or any of the other NFL players involved in or directly responsible for the death of "PEOPLE" who are still playing?

Come on, I think he is a dirt bag, and dont like Vick, and am oh so glad he is out of Atlanta, but he is not even close to the worst in the NFL and no one is even talking about them.

[NeedleCast]

247. I am very pleased that you are in no way involved in the justice system

Its ironic how much blood lust you seem to have in your desire for vengeance (and make no mistake, you don't want justice, you want some perverted form of revenge).

[BlooInBloo]

250. But it's TRUE PROGRESSIVE vengeance! It's waaaay cooler.

[jmm]

251. I love animals but

where is the outrage over all the dead beat dads and wife beaters in professional sports? I remember a few years ago Brett Myers assault his wife in Boston and started the next night for the Phillies. I still wouldn't necessarily support an outright ban lifetime ban for them but we'd all be better off if people showed more concerns over the mistreatment of women and children.