The case against "Great Expectations" as required reading

[KurtNYC]

Is this really a thread about a book that was (and still is) required reading in high school? Something bigger than that (I hope).

Many, perhaps most, of us here are avid readers. We acquired an appetite for getting our information in writing and don't shy away from responding in written language. The rise of the internet has ushered in a new era for the written word and now texting seems almost as popular as a simple phone call. Especially among people of high school age. Increasingly we use short and concise written communication to share and enhance our lives.

One of my relatives is entering high school in August. His assignment for the summer is to read the Dickens book "Great Expectations" and write twenty 100-word essays analyzing his choice of passages from that work. I hadn't seen the book in 20 years. He was hating it but as a good student forced himself to read 20 pages a day or so. I picked it up and re-read some of it... then I remembered with a shutter how much I dreaded that humorless outdated book.

Seemingly endless descriptions of minutia -- dust and cobwebs for pages. Very long winded and slow moving. At some points it is like reading a Sears catalog from 1857, just describing one thing after another. Almost all of the main characters suffer for most of the 600 pages and to what end? The main character is fairly passive, which from the reader's POV just sucks. The events in the book happen to him, not because of him. He doesn't take action so much as suffer through the actions that happen to him. Dickens has Estella slap him about every 40 pages or so. Havisham is a mysterious but mostly 2-dimensional bitch who's goal is to make men suffer. Dickens goes on and on like that and it some point it dawns on the reader -- maybe at page 20, maybe at the end -- that the reader is also suffering. The readers pain increases as the work goes on -- more dust, more slapping, no action and worst of all no payoff.

Imagine if Harry Potter or Luke Skywalker just endured hardship for 600 pages; never answering to a challenge, never finding the hero within. Would anyone read stuff like that if it wasn't required reading?! But Great Expectations is one of the most frequently read books in the English language and I am beginning to think it is only because so many English courses require it.

While reading the book is not without value -- it shows us the mindset and atmosphere of 19th Century England and the descriptions themselves are masterful -- I think the damage is done in turning off young readers. Students come to equate reading assignments with dusty suffering. The work so scarred the writers of South Park that they mock it at every opportunity. Matt & Trey went so far as to create an extra expensive episode of South Park just so they could change the ending to one with a payoff. And their audience btw hates that episode. At a time when students could be turned on to learning and using better language skills -- structure, concise yet expansive language, dynamic life-like characters -- they should not be tortured by this long-winded, humorless and nearly pointless book.

How much better would it be to require the reading of a book that is under-read now and does payoff? One that would set a positive tone for the study of English. Considering that a summer assignment before 9th grade is like a preview, an appetizer if you will, of what high school English will be, why not serve up something that will really whet their appetites? The Great Gatsby, The Grapes of Wrath, The Outsiders, Huckleberry Finn, or any of so many other great and well-loved books.

[meegbear]

1. Write twenty 100-word essays analyzing his choice of passages from that work?

I'd be more upset about that.

[anigbrowl]

44. 100 words isn't an essay, it's a pragraph.

Yes, it's a rather dull book. But it could be worse...it could be 'Hard Times', which makes Great Expectations look like a racy thriller.

[coalition_unwilling]

58. You have got to be kidding! HT is far

more concise and the subplot of Sissy Jupe and Thomas Gradgrind is far more approachable for HS and pre-HS students.

[anigbrowl]

85. That's pretty much what I find wrong with it - plot-by-numbers

In the film biz we have an old quote from sam Goldwyn - if you want to send a message, use Western Union. I'm very fond of Dickens and voluntarily read most of his output as a kid, but Hard Times is so blatantly allegorical even for Dickens that I can't buy into the characters.

[meegbear]

60. I read Hard Times in college ...

it was a baaaad read.

Maybe he should read "Grate Expectations" by Edmund Wells instead.

[tblue37]

74. _GE_ is a very funny book, but today's kids need some help

in unlocking its humor. More important, it is a complexly structured book with all sorts of neat things going on in it. I have always loved teaching GE, and my students enjoy it.

I have had students come up after we've finished GE and ask which other books by Dickens to read because they enjoyed GE.

At age 11, my daughter finished the book in 2 days and then asked me to get her some more books by the same author becuase she loved it so much. (As it happens, though, she didn't like any of Dickens' other books, except for Tale of Two Cities.)

I am a big Dickens fan, but some of his books (e.g., Nicholas Nickleby)are really obnoxious.-

[tblue37]

94. _HT_ was actually the first work of literature I ever had to teach when

I started graduate school in English back in 1972. It was a fun book to teach. The kids liked it, too.

[janx]

128. That's because you knew how to teach it.

:-)

[Freddie Stubbs]

2. Reading Harry Potter is easy

I think that one of the reasons which teachers assign Dickens is that it is a challenge.

[cali]

3. I love Dickens and I love Great Expectations. I've read it over and over.

I like it's slow pace and description of minutae. I like the gothic character of Havisham and the bewildered Pip. And you're flat wrong about Pip not rising to any challenge. He does.

Great Expectations is a rich satisfying novel with plenty of rewards for the young reader. It's beautifully composed and written and it does far more than give us a peek into 19th century England. It's a classic search for self- a bildungsroman- that deserves its reputation.

As for the creators of South Park being scarred by reading it, well, I can only laugh at that as a reason to discard it. Oh, and the other books you mentioned are standard high school fare.

[katandmoon]

4. Me too! And if the creators of SP hate it, that's all the more reason for me to love it.

[Feron]

40. I agree.

I was forced to read it as a freshman in HS and I fell in love with the book. And while I love The Outsiders as well, it's not in the same league as GE.

In addition, a teacher's attitude is influential. If a teacher hates what he/she is teaching, the kids will pick up on that and likely dislike the book as well.

[TorchTheWitch]

89. So do I

I've loved all the Dickens I've read. Bleak House is probably my favorite.

[AngryAmish]

5. You take that back or I'll get Tickler!

I'm sure the lad would also not mind reading pornography as a school assignment. GE as required reading made me a Dickens fan for life.

[KurtNYC]

33. "He told me to hush and I hushed..."

..oh wait, that was a different tedious assignment.

[Pamela Troy]

6. Dear me. If only Dickens had thought to supply Pip with a light saber or a wand!

Sounds as if you approached this great novel with a really rotten attitude. Anyone who would cite Harry Potter (and for the record, I love the Harry Potter books) or Star Wars or South Park as preferable just doesn't get it.

[Goblinmonger]

8. I agree that was a bad comparison

but the last paragraph redeems that, IMHO. The point is still valid. There is very little "up" in Great Ex to counter the excessive "down." Most modern novels/stories balance the up and the down for the most part and I think it is correct that all the down will turn kids off. Another reason I stand by my recommendation of Of Human Bondage below.

[Pamela Troy]

11. What do you mean by "up" and "down" here. That the story is a "downer?"

You miss the humor that runs through it, the wonderfully mordant description of Pip's youthful concept of his dead parents and siblings derived from his only contact with them, their gravestones?

"The shape of the letters on my father's, gave me an odd idea that he was a square, stout, dark man, with curly black hair. From the character and turn of the inscription 'Also Georgiana, Wife of the Above,' I drew a childish conclusion that my mother was freckled and sickly. To five little stone lozenges, each about a foot and a half long, which were arranged in a neat row beside their grave and were sacred to the memory of five little brothers of mine -- who gave up trying to get a living exceedingly early in that universal struggle -- I am indebted for a belief I religiously entertained that they had all been born on their backs with their hands in their trousers-pockets, and had never taken them out in this state of existence."

You miss the comedy of Joe Gargery? The complex tragedy of not just Miss Havisham and Estella, but Mrs. Joe?

[Goblinmonger]

13. I was speaking of general plot arc

There is very little that goes well for Pip.

I get the humor and comedy. Do you know how long it would take to teach that to high school students that aren't advanced readers? There are other things we need to teach. It is complex and subtle which is why it doesn't translate well to young high school students. Additionally, it is so dependent on the time period that it doesn't speak to today's youth. Yes, they can learn to appreciate it, but again, the time consideration. Just like Scarlet Letter. I love that novel, but it doesn't reach out to today's youth. They may be at a point in their life to appreciate it, but you can't really force them there.

[Pamela Troy]

17. And Philip's life is a bed of roses, is it?

I don't see how OF HUMAN BONDAGE speaks any more to today's youth than GREAT EXPECTATIONS does. And any great novel is heavily invested in its time period. What makes it great is that Pip's blinkered smugness and Estella's coldness are well drawn enough to be understandable in any era.

[Goblinmonger]

19. Of Human Bondage is not weighted down (my opinion)

in the descriptive nature of Victorian works. Of the couple dozen advanced lit students that have hated Great Ex who have read Human Bondage at my suggestion, ALL have liked Human Bondage.

[Pamela Troy]

22. Probably because you plainly like HUMAN BONDAGE and imparted that to them.

That can make a real difference.

[GreenArrow]

27. You never know.

I loved Great Expectations, hated Human Bondage. I actually like the descriptive language in Dickens and I think it's a superb book. Maybe I should try the Maugham again; it's been at least 30 years since I read it.

[KurtNYC]

12. I have mixed feelings about the book. My argument is only about

whether requiring the reading of this book encourages or tortures young readers who have modern sensibilities and appetites.

I'm not recommending SP, SW or Potter as required reading in place of GE. I am recommending the books I mention at the end of my argument.

[Pamela Troy]

18. It depends on how the book is taught.

If some teachers approached, say assigning Rowling the way they approach Dickens or other great authors, students would quite possibly loathe the Potter books just as profoundly.

[janx]

129. YEP.

:thumbsup:

[Goblinmonger]

7. I teach HS English and I HATE Great Ex

It is a good story, but I really, really don't like Dickens. I get the Mrs. Haversham imagery with the cake and cobwebs. You don't need to go on for that may pages about it. Personally, I would rather students read Of Human Bondage for their exposure to bildungsroman (which I completely agree high school students need to read).

Our department has gone away from requiring the books that kids hate and have moved toward classics that they like. Why teach a complete Dickens novel just to teach Dickens when the vast majority won't actually read the book but just Sparknote it? We replaced Great Ex with The Hobbit. We replaced Scarlet Letter with Gatsby. We are currently replacing Old Man and the Sea with Diary of a Part-Time Indian. We still give them exposure to the classic authors, but why give them novels that over 90% hate?

[Pamela Troy]

9. Oh. Dear. God.

You replaced GREAT EXPECTATIONS with THE HOBBIT?

The Western literature canon is truly getting dumbed down.

[Goblinmonger]

10. Here's what I said to the Math teacher that felt

it was her place to bitch at me about our curriculum decision.

Let's assume that on a literary greatness scale of 1-10, Great Ex is a 9 (I would personally put it at an 8 or even 7, but I'll give you a 9 for the sake of argument. Don't even argue it's a 10; it's not even Dickens' best work). Of the 150 kids we teach each year in English 9, less than 10% read the entire book. They hate it. Now, on to The Hobbit. Let's say The Hobbit is a 7 (Again, I would personally put it at an 8, but I'll go lower for the sake of argument). Of the 150 kids, over 70% read the whole book. SOOOOOOOO, what should we do? Teach "THE CANON" for the sake of being able to say that we teach Great Ex or actually teach a book that is still good literature that the kids actually read? Is it more important to "look good" or actually give students the skills they need to consume literature after they leave high school. Also, they actually get exposure to fantasy literature in school.

And the canon can kiss my ass, by the way. I'm here to teach kids to appreciate literature. Have you read the entire canon? I know I haven't and I'm an English teacher. Why does some kid who isn't planning on going to college (or planning to go to college as *GASP* a non-English major) need to notch off as many works in the canon as possible? They read some of the canon, though. Maybe, just maybe, if I can create in them a love of literature, as they continue in adulthood and refine their taste in literature they will start knocking off some of the canon of their own accord.

[Pamela Troy]

15. No, I haven't read the whole canon. (Though I've read a heftier chunk of it than most.)

But I'm not going to knock THE OLD MAN AND THE SEA and replace it in a class with a Tolkein novel because I happen to have a hard time reading Hemingway.

Most kids hate reading assigned books. Period. They hate the very concept. (Kind of like I hated being assigned math problems.) Imparting a love of literature involves more than simply assigning kids something they'd probably read on their own anyway.

Dickens is a wonderfully rich writer for a high school class -- there's humor, terror, even horror, and levels of complexity that are often missed in filmed (or cartoon) adaptations. Yes, lot's of nineteenth century books have stretches of description that modern readers find boring. But being familiar with these classics is part of being literate and knowledgeable about western literature in general.

[Goblinmonger]

16. So why haven't you read the ones you haven't?

Have you read "lesser" books instead of reading another piece of the canon? How dare you. :evilgrin:

Why the hatred for Tolkein? He has humor, terror, horror, complexity.

We are getting rid of Old Man to replace it with a contemporary Native American writer in order to increase the diversity students have exposure to rather than just reading DOWGs (Dead Old White Guys). I have no problems at all replacing Hemingway with Sherman Alexie. None at all.

Yes it is important to know western literature. But not at the expense of other things. And our students still read Shakespeare, Hemingway, Eliot, Steinbeck, Wells, Twain, Hawthorne, etc., etc., etc.

[Pamela Troy]

20. Because What They Have I Seem to Miss.

You're deliberately exaggerating my arguments here. I'm not saying that we all should read the entire canon. I'm saying that dissing GREAT EXPECTATIONS in favor of Harry Potter Novels, Tolkein, and SP because students tend to like those and often don't like Dickens and won't read him unless he's assigned is a cop out.

What makes you think I hate Tolkein? The fact that I don't equate him with Dickens? (Or, for that matter, Hemingway, an author I have always had trouble reading?) Sure, I enjoyed the LORD OF THE RINGS, etc., but no, his characters and plots, while fun, just don't measure up when it comes to Dickens subtlety or to the moral ambiguity in Dickens' characters, however exaggerated they may sometimes seem.

[janx]

131. Alexie's Diary of a Part-Time Indian is a children's book--

a young adult novel. I've taught it, but I was teaching a group of "at risk" kids, some of whom were special ed. kids. I normally teach at a university, and as part of a TRIO program, I've taught high school kids two summers in a row.

I love Alexie, but I certainly wouldn't replace Hemingway with Alexie simply because Hemingway is an "old dead white guy."

[PVnRT]

25. How are you going to get "a love of literature"

reading books you find boring, that you resent being assigned to read? If anything, that will turn people off to reading.

Besides, if Dickens is a must, why not "A Tale of Two Cities" or "A Christmas Carol," both of which are, for one, much better reads, and, two, have themes and ideas that are much more easily relatable to high schoolers (yes, I know "relatable" isn't a real word).

[BlooInBloo]

79. Indeed. How will kids get a "love of health" eating foods they resent eating? (facepalm)

Answer: They're fucking kids. They don't know what the fuck they're talking about. That's why we call them "kids". It's our job to expand their minds and bodies into ADULT minds, not indulge their every dumb kid whim.

[tblue37]

92. Bloo, sometimes I wish I could kiss you. nt

[BlooInBloo]

93. I get that a lot...

No, not really.

:P

[Marr]

21. I think that's a pretty sound position, personally.

Kids aren't actually going read books they don't understand, and even if they do... they won't understand them. I remember reading Great Expectations in school, but I completely missed everything that wasn't a central thread in the plot. The humor went right by me. The writing style is very 19th century English and as a teenager I just didn't get it.

I read the book again in my late 20's, after reading all of Jerome K. Jerome's books (which I love). Suddenly Great Expectations made perfect sense, and I enjoyed it.

Just out of curiosity-- what's the problem with The Old Man and the Sea? I would think that book would be accessible by just about anyone.

[Goblinmonger]

24. Nothing specific about Old Man and the Sea

though I hate Hemingway. I think it is accessible, not a bad text for teaching symbolism, and it is about 50/50 for the kids. Some really like it and some really hate it. The problem is this: We teach it in American Lit. We currently teach Huck Finn, Gatsby, Of Mice and Men, and Old Man for novels in addition to the short stories, plays, and poems of the survey course. We don't have room to just add another novel, but want to add something modern and something not by a white guy. Of the four novels, Old Man loses. No way we get rid of Huck, the kids LOVE Gatsby, and Of Mice and Men is pretty damn good.

[KurtNYC]

28. thanks for your perspective

I started this thread without the kind of perspective that comes from actually trying teach with this kind of cirriculum. I have a BA from a great school in English Literature and it has served me well but I really didn't like much of the curriculum in the earlier part of my education.

I have taught things other than English and have become a strong believer in starting with where the student is and then challenging them to grow. I think GE can nuke their enthusiasm when it most needs nurturing.

I also considered that this assignment may be a test which weeds out those who will buckle down and do the work versus those who will put it off and never get it done on time. That could be a valuable lesson at the start of high school but I would think that the cost to the students' appetite for learning could be high.

[lolly]

51. Um, it's boring?

I remember reading it in high school--I used to refer to it as "The Old Fool and his Fish."

OTOH, it seems to resonate with a certain type of young man. When Facebook used to have a section on "Favorite Books," I noticed several guys put it on their list. That seems reason enough to keep it in the canon.

It's also relatively short--and don't jump on me, but I think it's a good idea to have students who are resistant to or uninterested in reading to start with shorter books. Gives them a quicker reward/reinforcement for their efforts, which is more likely to lead to enjoying longer books.

Oh--and the series of "essays" (at 100 words, sounds more like "response papers,") I have to come out against that one. I understand that the teacher is trying to get them to reflect on what they wrote, but I think interrupting the reading experience like that makes it into more of a chore. Have them reflect afterwards.

[KurtNYC]

68. I think they are supposed to read the whole book then go back and

do the 20 essays. And this is all self directed; over the summer with no contact or guidance from the teacher until school starts.

[WildEyedLiberal]

59. This is a fantastic post, and you are my hero

I fortunately was not assigned to read Great Expectations, although I tried on my own when I was in 8th grade and gave up after about 100 pages. A Tale of Two Cities was required for senior English, and I actually read it, and enjoyed it. My least favorite year of English was junior year American literature - The Scarlet Letter and Huck Finn. Scarlet Letter is just way too fusty and puritan, and I think there are far more relevant 19th century American novels. Huckleberry Finn, on the other hand, should be assigned in junior high, not high school. I know I would've enjoyed it much more at age 11 or so than at age 17.

I actually hated the Great Gatsby, but I think that had much to do with the way my freshman English teacher taught it. He was really obsessed with postmodern symbolism and blah blah blah. All I remember from our Great Gatsby unit was that "yellow" was a recurring theme in the book and it represents the decay of society, etc - your typical meaningless academic gibberish. It ruined the book for me.

I do not understand why some people are so hasty to dismiss "fantasy" or "science fiction" in literaure classes. I think Fahrenheit 451 or Brave New World are far more relevant and likely to grab a high school reader's interest, as well as spur them to think about complex new ideas and systems of thought, than some dusty old "classic" like Scarlet Letter.

[muriel_volestrangler]

126. A bit, late, I suppose, but I'd like to add: The Hobbit is a young children's book

and I'd say it would put off children who are too old for it if they had to read it and write about it.

I read The Hobbit at school; at age 8 or 9. No, we didn't have to write essays about it, as far as I remember, but that is the target age for the book. Tolkien made up the story for his children when they were about that age. When the publisher received The Hobbit, he gave it to his 10 year old son to write a report on it (the conclusion? "This is an excellent book. This will appeal to all children between the ages of 7 and 9.")

Now, perhaps you were giving Great Expectations to 10 or 11 year olds. In which case a switch to The Hobbit was appropriate. But I suspect no-one will have been trying to get children that young to read and discuss GE. So what age range are you talking about?

[anigbrowl]

47. +1. No, +100

I like the Hobbit, for sure. I thought it kicked ass...when I was 9. Great Expectations is dusty and fusty, but it's also a milestone in the history of literature. How you could replace that with the Hobbit is beyond me.

[BlooInBloo]

49. "We replaced Great Ex with The Hobbit." - Thank gawd for education majors.

[Lorax7844]

71. Not the Scarlet Letter! Once you get past the Counting House

it is an awesome book and Hester is one of the best heroines in all of literature. It's sad that she is replaced with the insufferable bitch in the Great Gatsby.

I'm down with the Hobbit instead of Great Expectations but why not Oliver Twist? It's a much better book by Dickens. Why Old Man and the Sea instead of say Light in August? there are plenty of classics that still kick major ass. I nominate The Portrait of Dorian Gray.

Please for the love of god, never make anyone read Whuthering Heights, why people have to read that instead of Jane Eyre has always escaped me.

[L0oniX]

14. Wedding cake can last a long time.

[KurtNYC]

30. love it

:rofl:

[ceile]

55. LOL!!!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

23. A lot depends on students being able to understand what they're reading

Thanks for your post. You're SO right that it's not easy to read such older novels. They can prove downright tedious!

I think older novels have a lot description and little dialogue, unlike novels today, and nowadays we're used to lots of fast computer games, speed, speed, speed, and we can't wait for development of anything. :-)

Also, they require an unbelievably good command of the language, which many kids today don't have.

Also it's good if the kids have a background of the times in which the book takes place or a time in which it was written.

I had a teacher who brought Shakespeare to life. She taught us the terms in Middle English, told us plenty of bawdy things about Shakespeare's plays and about life back then, and we acted out Othello, then went to see it at the Shakespeare Company. It was awesome.

I definitely agree with you about encouraging them to read really juicy books like Gatsby, The Grapes of Wrath, The Outsiders, and Huckleberry Finn.

I also think that it's better if kids read anything rather than if they read nothing. Harry Potter and Twilight are getting kids that would never have read a thing, to read, and I think that's wonderful.

[surrealAmerican]

26. The assignment sounds onerous, but ...

... there is a lot to like about Great Expectations, even for a high school student. If it were being discussed in class while the students were reading it, it could make a very big difference in their attitude toward this book.
I don't see how you think it's "humorless". There's rather a lot of humor, much of it in those descriptions you hate.

[muriel_volestrangler]

29. I got an English Lit. 'O' level in Britain, without ever reading any Dickens at all

and that was in a 'traditional' fee-paying school. An 'O' was the exam you took about the time of your 16th birthday, so roughly equivalent to someone entering high school; after that you specialised in subjects, so only a minority would study English further.

Part of the qualification (40%?) was a sit-down timed exam on a set Shakespeare play - 'Romeo and Juliet' in my year. Part (20%?) was extended coursework on whatever subject you chose (I did the relation of Tolkien to mythology). And the rest was coursework on a variety of novels. What I can remember of the list we had to do is:

Coriolanus
The Great Gatsby
The Outsider (translation of L'Etranger by Camus)
At least 1 Thomas Hardy novel (I got 'Return of the Native' - ugh. Tedious as hell)
At least 1 of '1984' or 'Brave New World'
A few from a varied range: it included 'I, Claudius', 'The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin' (yes, Brits, I really do mean that), 'Titus Groan', and a few more, I think. Perhaps 'Heart of Darkness'? Huckleberry Finn?

So I think the novels were all less than 100 years old, when I did this. Before the exam year, we'd studied various other novels and plays, but no Dickens, no Bronte sisters, no Austen. I'd say it was a fairly good syllabus.

[KurtNYC]

32. Interesting. I'm sure you know that list is way beyond what

would be required of a student in US public schools.

Nice to see that a couple American authors made the list.

[muriel_volestrangler]

42. Well, doing so many books meant you didn't have to do them in such detail

which may be a good thing. My brother took the same exam 5 years earlier, and I think for him it consisted of just 2 sit-down timed exams: 1 Shakespeare ('Julius Caesar', I think) and ... 'Great Expectations', of course!

So I think the exam board my school used had just realised, some time around the beginning of the 80s, that it needed to get a bit more up-to-date. More course work is probably a better thing too for literature, in my opinion (I hated that with timed exams, it was a struggle just to write fast enough to get in what you wanted to say in essay subjects, and having to memorise a certain number of quotes from the play/book, because you weren't allowed to have a copy of the work you were supposedly criticising open in front of you). Against that, I don't like coursework for qualifications being done outside the classroom, where people end up either plagiarising from the internet, or using knowledgeable parents to write it, if they're lucky enough to have them.

[montanto]

31. You wrote: "The main character is fairly passive,

which from the reader's POV just sucks. The events in the book happen to him, not because of him. He doesn't take action so much as suffer through the actions that happen to him." Which is the whole point. He's a tool, like so many of us, passive and awaiting the whim of someone more powerful than we. That is what the reader is supposed to learn: heroism is in the endurance. We can't all be Luke Skywalker, a story solidly based on mythology, but are doomed to be Pip. BTW The Great Gatsby, Huck Finn, Grapes are all equally distasteful to students these days, and their message equally abstract. The Outsiders they will read though if you don't mind keeping them in the shallow end.

[KurtNYC]

35. I think you make a good point about how "every man" Pip is

and I think that is what keeps the work from competing for the time and attention it demands in order to be understood, in the world of modern tweens.

[coalition_unwilling]

38. Plus Pip turns into a smug,

arrogant Victorian Yuppy prick, not through his own merit or hard work, but through Magwitch's desire to expose the entire concept of the "Victorian gentleman" as the fraud it was.

Surely there is an object lesson in that for today, although methinks that will escape most pre-9th graders.

[coalition_unwilling]

34. If I were assigning Dickens to pre-

9th graders, I would start with "Hard Times."

Gradgrind's demand for "facts" dovetails quite nicely with the requirement for "20 100-word essays." :) And provides a running commentary on how the "teach to the test" mentality prevalent now destroys creativity and imagination for teacher and student alike, much as Gradgrindism did a number on Sissy Jupe.

Students who exhibited an interest in more Dickens could then be pointed first to "Oliver Twist" and then to "GE."

[mainer]

36. I always wondered WHO decided this was part of the canon

I think that way back, some "authority" said Great Ex was the best book ever, and ever since, English teachers have been afraid to point out that the emperor has no clothes.

[Goblinmonger]

37. FTW! n/t

[kath]

39. Great Expectations seems a bit much for pre-ninth graders (even though I like the book very much as

an adult)
Had a very good public school education back in the dark ages (35 years ago), in honors classes leading to AP classes in sr. year (1 AP as jr - now they take APs as sophomores, which is ridiculous). In our very good honors English curriculum, we didn't do Great Expectations until junior year (British lit). Honors ninth graders read Oliver Twist. I think the "college prep" track ninth graders did Oliver Twist as well.
Haven't read Hard Times yet, but seems like Christmas Carol might also be a good choice for kids this young, or perhaps OTwist. But GE is a huge thick book, and would be a very long slog for 13-14 year olds. There is some very good "young adult" literature out there that is more likely to resonate with kids this age and would be better choices than Dickens for this age. Many of the "classics" really require a bit of life experience in order to be appreciated - better saved until college.

I also think that summer assignments are BULLSHIT - kids have to do enough stupid assignments (20 100-word essays?! on passages?) during the school year. Let them enjoy their summer. We had NO summer assignments when I was in school, and we did very well, got high scores on our APs and turned out just fine, thank you very much. We also didn't do all the stupid busy work assignments kids get stuck w/ today - in English, we read the books, discussed them some in class, and wrote PAPERS on them. No stupid bullshit "chapter summaries" or "reading journals" in English or history, or any class. Real work - papers, essay tests - not busywork. No art projects, except in art class. No multiple choice tests.

Now get off my lawn!!

[JCMach1]

78. you are right, the assignment sucked... not the book

[malletgirl02]

109. Tale of Two Cities

I think A Tale of Two Cities is the best Dickens book for 13-14.

[LWolf]

41. There's a catch.

There are just as many young people out there that will find "The Great Gatsby, The Grapes of Wrath, The Outsiders, Huckleberry Finn, or any of so many other great and well-loved books" to be "long-winded, humorless and nearly pointless."

There is no canon of titles that all students will be motivated to read and learn from. That means that ANY assigned title will be unappealing to some.

This generation is an electronic generation. They like their ipods, their cell-phones, texting, tweeting, myspace, facebook, tv, radio, and movies. The amount of time, BY THEMSELVES, without interacting with others, it takes to read any novel is unacceptable to 90% of them; at least, to 90% of my students. They would complain about ANY book they are assigned, BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO READ.

When you allow them to choose their own reading, the vast majority (again, of my students,) choose junk reading. The equivalent of McDonalds. Books with no intellectual merit whatsoever. Of course, everyone exclaims, happily, "at least they're reading!!!!"

I deal with the above realities by creating reading lists for them to choose from. My students rarely have a novel assigned. Instead, they get to choose, but from my list, guaranteeing that they will have to read something of substance.

Of course, if a teacher wants to have book discussions, to use elements of what students are reading to teach elements of literature, a common read is a necessity. We can't have 90 or 120 or 150 different discussions because everyone is reading their own thing. Sometimes, we HAVE to read together.

I usually use short stories for those purposes.

[NashVegas]

56. There's the Point

I have to admit: I didn't care much for GE, either. I didn't care for most of the assigned reading, at all. But if I hadn't been forced to suffer the heavy-handedness of The Pearl, I might never have have noticed Of Mice and Men when I came across it in someone's collection.

OTOH, I'd never have picked up The Great Gatsby on my own, so I'm glad that's one they assigned us.

Letting a 13 year old pick out their own material may well keep them interested, but it's not going to help them become well-rounded.

[LWolf]

97. Yes.

I have to admit, also, that I had to read many things assigned to me in college to earn my degrees that I had no interest in.

I did it anyway, and I DID always learn something.

[joeybee12]

43. The writing style may be outdated, but Dickens is timeless for his great depth and

ability to create believable and unforgettable characters and plots.

[dugaresa]

45. it has been some time since i read it but it isn't a fantasy book

it isn't about a prince who finds a princess in distress and who rescues her.

It is a book about life and in Great Expectations these folks muddle through. If anything it does give us a picture of life during Dicken's time. I attended a lecture by Kurt Vonnegut and he said that if you looked at some of the great books of literature, there aren't peaks and valleys (like Cinderella) if you were to map out the emotions of a book some of the best are flatliners. He mapped out a bunch on a blackboard and made it quite entertaining and it was also insightful. He said a lot of young writers wanted to write a book that was all over the place emotionally and that should't be the goal. (it has been a long time since I heard that lecture but this is what I do remember)

[KurtNYC]

75. Sounds like a lecture I would have loved

I love structure analysis (and I was named after Vonnegut).

[MilesColtrane]

46. "Ethan Frome" was the killer for me.

Nothing quite as riveting as the love lives of New England puritans.

Page after page of wintery descriptions, quiet yearnings, and inaction.

It made me want to saw my own head off.

[Goblinmonger]

63. Sawing your own head off

would have been a more believable attempt at suicide than running your sled into a tree.

Ethan is such a douche.

[Budgies Revenge]

69. Please, Teachers of America...

Stop inflicting that horrible "Ethan Frome damage" on teenagers. That's one of the few books that made me consider gouging my own eyes out to stop the misery.

[kath]

115. Yes, EF was a killer - but ARROWSMITH was worse!

[yurbud]

48. Uncle Tom's Cabin is my pick for HS read--lots of action AND idealism

and it would be a good early lesson in the amorality of unrestrained capitalism.

[anonymous171]

50. Great Expectations is a combination of realism and romanticism.

But all that really means is that it was shit. God damn I hated that book, which was odd because up until that point I had thoroughly enjoyed all of Dickens' other works.

[undeterred]

52. Charles Dickens was one of the most amazing writers

Western civilization ever produced and he had a strong moral sensibility. I think he's a good choice.

[freddie mertz]

53. It is a great book, one of my favorites.

Personally, I'd hit them with "Jude the Obscure" or "The Mayor of Casterbridge" next--now those ones are REALLY a "downer" (and also truly great literature BTW).

I can't think of anything less appetizing than a steady diet of "happy" or "uplifting" reading...

But that's just me....

[JCMach1]

77. I love it as well...

[malletgirl02]

110. Thomas Hardy

Also "Tess of the d'Urbervilles". That one probably the most depressing book I have ever read, and I read "King Lear". Thomas Hardy wrote a lot of downer novels.

[ceile]

54. Is this for real?

Dickens was a brilliant author. Sorry if some find the book boring, but really, get over it.

[BlooInBloo]

61. Yes, this is real. This is education majors turning kids into idiots, like themselves.

[Goblinmonger]

64. Um, bite me.

You have no idea what I do in my classroom. And I have an English major, not education.

But otherwise, go ahead with your strawmen.

[BlooInBloo]

66. "And I have an English major, not education." - That's a marginal improvement.

[Goblinmonger]

67. Given that we are talking about those things taught

in an English major, yes, I would say it is more than a marginal improvement. Though I'm sure your major in college is by far the most on point for the study of literature.

[NashVegas]

57. This Is Kinda Like, "Onion Skin Cells Are Boring, Kids'd Learn Science Better By Synthesizing LSD"

N'est ce pas?

[KurtNYC]

82. There are better serious books to start with than GEx

I think it is pragmatic to accept at this point that sensibilities have changed. For better or worse, Dickens is verbose and I think students are better served studying how to write well themselves by reading and analyzing more concise works.

A better start can be picked without dumbing down.

[NashVegas]

88. I'm Sure I Agree

But syllabus isn't chosen democratically. Frankly? Great Expectations bored me to tears at the time, and I also agree Gatsby's great read, but as long as a teacher has a demonstrable record of competency, it's at their discretion which order they go.

(Personally I think it's a bit much that it's a summer assignment and must speculate - advance placement?)

[KurtNYC]

95. yes - this is AP

so again, I suspect this independent assignment may be designed as a kind of "wake up" or "weed out" to divide who is ready to do the AP work from who is not.

[ismnotwasm]

62. Well to me

Literacy is more than being able to read. It's also about reading comprehension, not only pulling meaning out of a string of words but appreciating the types of communication and different styles. But for a 14 year old? I'm not sure if that particular book is the best way to get that point across.

I didn't like Great Expectations either if I recall correctly. At least I know I haven't reread it since I was 17 or 18. What's interesting is it was originally serialized, and probably easier to read in installments.

Dickens work is important though. (However, I confess to reading "A Christmas Carol" over and over having a tendency to enjoy Sci-fi or fantasy)

I just found it on Project Gutenberg, I think I'll see how far I can personally stand to read it. It's been a long time. The opening holds my interest, but we'll see.

If anyone is interested
http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=873078

[Goblinmonger]

65. If I ever teach the class that has Great Ex in the curriculum again

I believe I am going to have them read it serially. That may a be a better experience and more legit way to read it.

[Orsino]

70. Great Expectations is the last Dickens I read.

What an ordeal. That book should have been a few hundred pages shorter.

And I loved reading.

[gleaner]

72. I am not overly fond of "Great Expectations"....

it is all you say and more.:crazy: I cannot imagine writing 20 100 word essays about it. I would be face down in a puddle of drool before I finished the first one.

There are worse books fobbed off as great literature in school too. "Last of the Mohicans" anyone? "The Scarlet Letter" or "Moby Dick," which sounds like the title of a book on venereal disease. Then there is "Silas Marner." That was a hummer too.

But still there is something about those essays that makes this seem worse. Imagine eating dust then regurgitating it 20 times. Gah.

[tblue37]

73. It depends on who is teaching it--and how.

I have often taught Great Expectations in my English clas (college freshman lit), and it has gone over very well--but I do incredibly cool things with literature.

If someone just expects kids to read a book that is long and (now) difficult, then it isn't going to work.

But I had one student literally shiver with delight and tell me that what we were analyzing in class sent chills down his spine.

Recently, I ws tutoring three 8th-graders who were required to read Tom Sawyer. I can't see any good reason to require 13-year-old kids to read that book. It simply is not going to speak to them, and it isn't even great literature (asGE is), so it just bores them silly, to no purpose.

[KurtNYC]

84. I love Twain and I think Tom Sawyer is among his weakest stuff

My hunch is Huck Finn remains too controversial and too easily attacked so TS gets used because it seems similar (but is in reality about like the difference between The Metropolitan Opera and American Idol).

[tblue37]

86. Exactly! Right now I am teaching _Huck_ to a kid going into 11th grade.

(It's required reading here in 11th grade.) Huck Finn is great literature, but Tom Sawyer simply isn't. Even HF has to be taught in a way that will engage students, though, because there is so much in the novel that will not make sense to them without real assistance from the teacher, and confusion leads to boredom and blocks their ability to appreciate what is so wonerful in the book.

[tblue37]

90. Do you like _GE_, too?

If so, you might enjoy a sample essay I wrote on it for my English 102 students:
"Marshscape"
http://salvoblue.homestead.com/marshscape.html

[tblue37]

91. Oh, BTW, have you ever read Twain's

Letters from the Earth? I almost wish they would teach that in public school. Wouldn't that be a laugh riot?

[realisticphish]

107. TS is boring as hell

Tom's a dick. But Huck is awesome

[kath]

116. Teaching GE to college freshmen is one thing - but to kids getting ready to enter NINTH GRADE??

not appropriate.

[XemaSab]

76. I was forced to read "Great Expectations" in 9th grade

and it made the whole idea of books seem like a bad one.

God, what a slog.

And to make it even worse, we had to write a paragraph on EVERY character in the whole damn book. Even characters who themselves only appear in one paragraph.

Death.

[omega minimo]

80. "then I remembered with a shutter how much I dreaded that humorless outdated book."

shutter








"Havisham is a mysterious but mostly 2-dimensional bitch who's goal is to make men suffer."

Maybe the boy will read something that doesn't turn him into a one-dimensional sexist ass.

[KoKo]

99. Truly....them "shutters" always cause the light to go out...don't know what I'm gonna do

when them shutters keep doin' their stuff. I guess I'll just be "shuttering in the cold."

[omega minimo]

100. shudda cudda wudda........... hello mudda, hello fadda, I'm shuttering, cuz the shudders are open

oh shud up. :spray:

[fishwax]

81. Dickens is great (though Great Expectations isn't his best), but it seems an odd choice for a summer

assignment before high school.

There's nothing wrong with including in a curriculum books that are difficult for students or that most students might initially react to as boring or slow, as sometimes those wind up being extremely productive for a class and rewarding for individual readers. But I would think the summer reading might be more geared to something that more easily facilitates independent enjoyment.

[janx]

133. It must be a popular one.

I know of another student entering high school who has been given a similar assignment.

[Blue_In_AK]

83. I liked Great Expectations.

:shrug:

[LostInAnomie]

87. I honestly think "Great Expectations" and quite a few other "classics" are only taught...

... because of the wealth of lesson plans and other teaching materials available to teachers on those "classics". It saves a lot of books that really have no relevant meaning to today's youth from going the way of the dodo.

[ContinentalOp]

96. Drama and literature aren't the same thing though.

You seem to be judging Great Expectations as a dramatic work rather than as a piece of literature. Novels can have a dramatic structure that translates to the stage or screen but they don't have to.

[earth mom]

98. This is what's wrong with todays kids. Everything has to be instant and fun or forgetaboutit.

I read Dickens as a kid and yes it was challenge, but I loved it and back then I had all the time in the world to spend my afternoons reading.

Kids these days really need to understand that most things worth knowing in life can't be summed up in a nanosecond.

:eyes:

[omega minimo]

101. That's a tough one.

Yes, all true. And a good teacher helps. Those stuffy tomes just shoved at ya as a summer chore are awful. Whereas if someone maybe reads some of it to you or presents it in a way to get the enthusiasm going, makes a difference. :hi:

I would think with Dickens, hearing it read (and why we love A Christman Carol year after year) would help. The OP mentioned all those descriptions of things.... that's where the word play and poetry can come through, eh?

Damn hippie rabblerouser rainbow goddess butterfly :spray:

[KoKo]

102. What's fascinating is that BBC and others have done incredible dramatizations of

"Great Expectations" and some of the current ones are an incredible watch. I've watched every version.

Kids might do better with the dramatizations than reading. The original language of Dickens is often too hard for them to deal with and takes too long.

I think many teachers are trying to incorporate good quality visualizations of Dickens work so that students can grasp it without reading what they feel is verbose, antiquated language and situations.

I love the teachers who can find good quality reproductions of Dickens work in the theater and teach to how his basic themes relate to what we are going through today.

I've been rewatching my old BBC revisits of Dickens Novels in the past two years as our Economy had imploded. I find much truth revealed in Dickens that relates to our times. And, frankly much more that relates than reading the "Wall St. Journal," or watching "CNBC." But, then...he always spoke about poverty and the little person...and how they could overcome it or succumb to it. Lot's of human nature behavior than never dies....no matter how sophisticated we all think we are..or how jaded we think we've become.

[omega minimo]

103. Beautiful post KoKo. So true. The dramatizations are GREAT.

:yourock:

"I've been rewatching my old BBC revisits of Dickens Novels in the past two years as our Economy had imploded. I find much truth revealed in Dickens that relates to our times. And, frankly much more that relates than reading the "Wall St. Journal," or watching "CNBC." But, then...he always spoke about poverty and the little person...and how they could overcome it or succumb to it. Lot's of human nature behavior than never dies....no matter how sophisticated we all think we are..or how jaded we think we've become."

Isn't it something? The truth in literature, musty and still vital. You're right, film is the way to light the spark.

[KoKo]

104. I'm one of those oldies who read lots of "comic books." Recently read

a post from Tom Englehardt ("Tom Gram) who talked about "anyway you can get a kid to read gets them down the path to learning." (I'm paraphrasing his experience of his childhood about how comic books got him reading then on to bigger and more complicated readings.)

Maybe if kids today had more leisure time and simplistic renditions of age-old drama of conflicts in simplistic terms it might cause more "seeking."

A Dickens Video Game to compete? With characters like Bernie Madoff depicted (like so many of Dickens complicated villans) in some way that puts Hero against Dark Side? Unscrupulous robbers of the poor, users who find victims, and victims who don't realize they are being used. Agonists and protagonists...
and all kinds of good stuff that give warnings to kids about what they may face in their life as they grow up and encounter all kinds of the "usual characters" that reappear over and over throughout history.

We teach our kids very little about how to deal with the "basics of human life" and too much about the "entertainment of human life" than will ever be useful to them. Although, I suppose Michael Jackson can be seen in human terms as someone not to emulate. I think Dickens could have done a character who transformed himself away into nothing but something called "Neverland." I can't think of a character in his books to equate to Jackson, off the top of my head...but I believe it's because I'm just posting and haven't thought long enough on it... :D

[omega minimo]

114. Great ideas!

:think:

[malletgirl02]

111. Little Dorrit

through I haven't read the book, I saw a few episodes of the recent I think BBC version of Little Dorrit" I found it really interesting. Much of the plot fits in with the current financial crisis. One of the characters embezzles from his bank, causing it to fail. as a result most of the main characters lose pretty much all their money, and one ends up in debtor's prison.

[janx]

127. Verbose, antiquated language and situations--

Here I must disagree. They are supposed to be studying the English language and the art of literature. High school students today are perfectly capable of immersing themselves in Dickens, but they should have teachers who love literature and know how to teach it. they don't have to look up every word they don't recognize; they'll learn a lot via context, but they should be curious enough to find a word or two and think: "What the hell is THAT? What IS that?" and find out (look it up).

But I agree with your post more than I disagree. BBC is wonderful at producing the classics, especially Dickens (AND Austen). The reason we find Dickens's truths revealing in our current time is because his stories are timeless. Over and over again, he deals with class, with poverty, and especially, with children. :hi:

[muriel_volestrangler]

130. Here's a recommendation: "The Way We Live Now", A Trollope novel the BBC did a few years ago

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0300879/

http://shop.idahoptv.org/product/show/45693

(You may have seen it already, of course, or read it). The lead actor openly based his characterisation on Robert Maxwell, a publisher (books and newspapers) who had committed suicide a few years earlier, and who turned out to be a con artist and fraud (which was often said at the time, but he was a master at using the British libel laws to shut people up). It was very relevant for the 'internet boom' that had just happened, but would, I think, still be interesting in relation to the current thieving in high finance too.

[realisticphish]

105. Frankly, GE is one of the few Dickens novels I enjoy

the rest of his full-length works put me into a stupor

[realisticphish]

106. Also, you seriously recommend The Great Gatsby as being more interesting?

I personally love the book. But it's laughable to place it next to The Outsiders or Huck Finn in terms of average high schooler interest

[grantcart]

108. I had such great expectations for this thread.

[malletgirl02]

112. Only on DU

Only on DU that there is a flame fest about classic literature. I'm recing just for that.

[Quantess]

113. I had to read Jude The Obscure

What a miserable stinkin' book!
I am certain nobody would ever read it on their own volition.

[Ex Lurker]

117. Try Bleak House

Compared to it GE is a Tarantino script. And I LIKE Dickens, but I think he's a bit much for a HS freshman to tackle.

[Ex Lurker]

118. it it's to be Dickens, why not the Pickwick Papers? n/t

[defendandprotect]

119. Largely agree, though I think fiction is pushed too far . . .

save for books like "The Grapes of Wrath" . . .

I would make a bigger point of moving students onto non-fiction --

Mainly we need to get the propaganda of white male history out of our schools!!!

[janx]

132. Fiction is not pushed far enough.

It's largely absent from our culture, and it reveals truth better, many times, than nonfiction can.

[defendandprotect]

135. Authors repeat what happens in reality in fiction . . .

however, other authors point us to us the reality of what is happening

and what has happened in non-fiction.

Again -- excluding the lies of history told by white males in "non-fiction" text books.

Only 3% of the public reads books at all, evidently -- so whether fiction

or non-fiction, it would be great if that number increased!

[lostnfound]

120. I read about 7 or 8 Dickens novels the summer before 9th grade.

I actually liked them. Weird, huh?

But I know that's not exactly typical. What do you think of A Series of Unfortunate Events? I read the entire series to my 6 year old and we both loved it. Especially The Slippery Slope.

And the Dave Barry books for kids, Peter and the Starcatchers etc., were perhaps not serious enough but they were really very funny and absorbing.

[KurtNYC]

121. I think

if I was re-writing the original post I would have stuck to the argument for better options and try to be more straightforward about why GE is a turn-off.

[theHandpuppet]

122. Thank God you weren't a teacher of mine

"...then I remembered with a shutter how much I dreaded that humorless outdated book."

[KurtNYC]

123. bc one homonym would have ruined your education ?

[mwb970]

124. You're talking about my favorite Dickens book!

It's short enough to actually finish and simple enough to actually follow the story. (I re-read David Copperfield recently, and it was very difficult for me to keep track of the characters and story in this sprawling work.)

They made us read A Tale Of Two Cities when I was in high school (at the very high school that Obama spoke at this week). I now know that, although valuable as literature, this book is the least funny and least engaging of all of Dickens' novels. Slogging through it turned me off to Dickens for years, until I discovered The Pickwick Papers on my own (have you read it? It's hysterical). Now I have all of the novels, and have read some of them several times each. Not A Tale Of Two Cities though, thanks.

[marshall]

125. The two books are different grade levels

Harry Potter is a children's book--written for ages 9 to 12. Diokens was written for adults, and is suitable for teen agers. It does challenge the shortened attention spans of today's youth, but I think reading it (or something similarly challenging) will be a valuable exercise.

[yurbud]

134. Tale of Two Cities was more fun, but still essentially pulp fiction