I don't know if Gates' arrest was about race

[Th1onein]

I know that, initially, the call to the cops was about race.

But I think that Gates was arrested because he didn't show proper deference to the cops.

Belligerance to a cop, even on one's own property, is against the law, you know?

[Buzz Clik]

1. The cop insisted that Professor Gates admit that his name was "Toby."

He was arrested when he refused.

[lisa58]

3. I think everyone should show deference to everyone - do you have a link about the "Toby" incident?

[Buzz Clik]

4. Hm. Before I reply, please tell me -- are you serious?

Many posters here don't include :sarsasm: and then get huffy when I assume they were serious. Are you serious or being sarcastic?

[lisa58]

13. I am serious - I haven't heard this - sorry for not being up to speed

[Buzz Clik]

21. The "Toby" reference comes from Alex Haley's book/tv miniseries, "Roots".

The main character, Kunta Kinte, is captured in Africa and taken to America to be a slave. He tells his new masters that his name is Kunta Kinte, but they insist he use the name Toby. As he stubbornly refuses, they beat him.

We have a tradition in America of insisting that folk submit to authority, even when authority is wrong.

[lisa58]

34. I'm sorry - I didn't get the reference...thanks

[paulsby]

2. the initial call was not about race

the woman called because she saw two guys FORCING entry into a house. that fact is not on dispute. also, belligeraance toa cop is NOT against the law. im a cop, i know. but gates wasn't arrested for "belligerance to a cop". he was arrested because he purportedly was repeatedly screaming at the cop in front of the house and refused to stop upon request. that meets at least the textbook definition of disorderly. if he had been yelling "cream cheese is good" he still ould have been arrested for disorderly. it's not the content as much as the manner (iow, loud and in a public place)

[BeyondGeography]

9. Maybe if her neighbor was white she would have recognized him

And who is this "neighbor" anyway? I want more information on her.

[paulsby]

11. and maybe if she was italian

she'd make good meatballs. it is you that are racist, if you are making assumptions about race w./o evidence. she saw two guys forcing entry. that fact is undisputed. even gates admitted he had to force entry. his doorjamb was broken from... wait for it... a previous burglary.

[BeyondGeography]

14. A "concerned" neighbor who doesn't even know who lives in the neighborhood

You're naive if you think that call to the police wasn't about race.

[paulsby]

16. and you're racist

if you see racists when there is no evidence of same. in the case of the burglary i responded to (two white kids crawling through the window), they ALSO lived at that house. yet, the neighbor (man) who called didn't recognize them. big fucking deal. again, you are assuming facts not in evidence and seeing racism where there is no evidence of same. that makes you either racist or ridiculous. i'm not sure which.

[BeyondGeography]

22. I'm sure she would have reacted the same way if her middle-aged white neighbor

was teaming up with his limo driver to force open an uncooperative door.

Thanks for making me see the light.

:patriot:

[paulsby]

37. you;re welcome

i;m used to race hustlers who see race issues where none exists. i've responded to many of these calls, with perp's off ALL races. nobody sees race or cares, except for people who are more interested in identity politics than fact patterns. did the limo driver have a big sign on his head that said LIMO DRIVER (a la james carrey... "don't worry, i'm a limo driver". ) did gates have a big sign on his head saying "i'm a harvard professor, not a burglar". i guess in the case i responded to where two white kids climbed through the window, the caller shouldn't have called. after all, they were white. so how could they possi8bly be a burglar. a middle aged burglar? omg. i've NEVER arrested one of those. maybe the dispatcher should have asked the caller "how old was the guy shoving the door in?" caller: "oh, about 50". dispatcher: "screw that, he couldn't possibly be a burglar. fuck off and have a nice day and thanks for calling cambridge police!!"

[Paladin]

32. And Maybe If Prof. Gates Had Brandished A Pistol......

....you'd be more supportive of his position, civil libertarian that you profess to be......

[paulsby]

41. which of his positions

that the cop was a racist for daring to ask him to step outside and provide id, upon responding to a burg complaint?

[dgibby]

27. She wasn't a neighbor.

She was walking past the house, saw what to her, appeared to be a break-in, called police, stayed at the scene, gave her report.

Here's a copy of the police report:

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/download/2009/0720/20120754.pdf

[paulsby]

42. thanks for the info

i had actually read the police report but i guess i read too many accounts of "neighbor" and this created the false impression. volokh.com to their creidt had the police report up right away. i prefer to go to primary sources and laud you for posting the link. my bad for referring to her as a "neighbor". that's even more supportive of my position.

[BeyondGeography]

43. I see she worked at Harvard Magazine, which is apparently nearby

http://gawker.com/5321278/no-henry-louis-gates-is-not-a-railer-a-brawler-or-a-common-street-walker

The whole thing is unfortunate, to say the least. It comes down to whether you think white people are more prone to think black people are acting suspiciously and call the police than when they see white people engaged in the same behaviors. The historical record is unkind to those with a benign interpretation of the decision to call.

[paulsby]

60. the historical record is pretty clear

that if you see somebody forcing in a door, unless you KNOW they are somebody who lives there, you call police. that's about as easy a decision as there is. like i said, i once had the cops called on me because i was "breaking into" my own car with a coat hanger. i didn't start yelling at the cop that he was a bigot for responding to the call. i treated him with civility and respect and got civility and respect in return. amazing the way that works.

[BeyondGeography]

67. We'll turn in circles with you forever on this one

Your scenario is hopelessly stripped down. Henry Louis Gates is a balding little old man trying to enter a house in the middle of the day. If you think the same scenario involving a white man would elicit the same response from a 40-year-old white woman every time, you're entitled to that opinion.

[paulsby]

69. you can make up bad intentions all you want

and assume that if the witness had seen a white person doing what gates and the driver did, that she would not call the police, feel free. it's unsupported by evidence, and i have responded to TONS of similar calls with both white and black suspects, such that i know it's complete crap, but if it makes you feel better, more power to you.

[seabeyond]

10. if it were two white men, middle of afternoon, front door, car in driveway, LUGGAGE

around them, the cops would not have been called.

if the cop had given his id and name like the law says he should, gates would not have followed him out, angry, insisting on the cop doing his job.

[paulsby]

15. utter rubbish

i've responded to dozens of calls like this. i once responded to the calls of a suspected burglary where two kids climbed through a window. they were WHITE. was the caller racist? utter rubbish. and the caller didn't see LUGGAGE. she saw they both had BACKPACKS. as for your hypothetical/waht if's ... two can play that game. if gates had come outside at the beginnign, when the cop was uncertain what he had except for potential burglary, as the cop requested and calmly provided his name and that he lived there, etc. there would be no reason for him to be angry, sicne it was a reasonable request. especially since gates, if he had a brain (and he does) KNEW that he had forced the door, and that a reasonable person would find that suspicious. i was once breaking into my own car with a coat hanger. a person called police. i'm white btw. were they RACIST OH ONOES???? and the cop rightly responded and investigated. i didn't instantly accuse him of being a racist, as gates did. get your facts , THEN form an opinion

[seabeyond]

26. since there was no backpacks and there was luggage, one has to wonder what was really seen

and said.

right there tells you there is a difference. that being said, you will note, (maybe, in between your insults) that i said nothing about the cop responding to the call.

at the point the cop KNEW it was gates property, and he did, he stated it in his report, he continued to get varification. even though he says he KNEW the man belong there. you KNOW at that point the cop was pushing it farther than he needed to go. there was not a break in

[paulsby]

40. and the cop at that point walked out and gates followed him

there are 8 civilian witnesses to gates FOLLOWING the cop outside and continuin to yell. you can argue it was poor discretion to have made the disorderly arrest (and after warning gates that he was subject to disorderly) arrest, and that's at leat a reasonable and subjective position. i have no idea what kind of luggage gates had. could it have looked like backpacks? i have no idea, nor do you. but people who have preconceptions, such as you, will key on stuff like this to try to find inconsistencies where little to none exist. i have never once had a witness give a perfect description of an event. where they backpacks, dufful bags, ? i don't know and neither do you . we do know they forced the door in and the bags that the witness saw were described as BACKPACKS. maybe she doesn't work for international tourister and mistook one type of bag for another. that's about as irrelevant as you can get.

[seabeyond]

45. IF the cop had done his job and given gates his name and id instead of turning away, and walking out

then gates probably would nto have followed him and made that scene. but the cop, trained, paid and professional, refused to give the info, turned back on man asking for the stuff that he had the right for, and walked outside. why to be able to arrest the man. couldnt do it in the house.

the cop did not do his job. he knew the man belonged there but didnt disconnect from situation. he was asked to provide id and name yet refused. anger escalated adn cop fed it. it is his job to diffuse, again he didnt do his job and he had intent of arresting a man he knew was innocent, abuse of power

further.... the reason people, law abiding citzens are so angry at cops is because even when they do wrong they adn their fellow officers refuse to acknowledge. hey, like you are doing right here and now. you want respect, earn it.

[paulsby]

48. and if gates had initially come out to the porch when the cop asked him

and provided his name and an explanation (that the door had been broken in a previous burg, etc) we also probably would not have had "the scene". the fact that gates INSTANTLY started hurling racial insults at the cop, accusing him of being a racist is also an issue. and here's a hint. your last paragraph is bullshit. poll after poll shows that cops have amongst the HIGHEST amount of respect amongst professions in the US. that's not opinion, that's fact, verified through opinion polls. i don't give a flying fuck whether YOU respect me, because you have never been served by me. i know that i, in 20 yrs, have never had a sustained IIU complaint, have never had a use of force complaint (and i have used every single tool on my belt) despite hundreds of arrests. i know that i am respected because i hear it from citizens, and i even get letters written about me praising my police work by happy customers. that's how we gauge our success. we don't judge it by a small sample of anti-cop bigots on a website. again, look at the polling data. cops ARE respected. citizens are not angry at cops. most citizens respect cops.

[seabeyond]

57. he did not come out on the porch cause he knows that he can be arrested and he doesnt TRUST

the cops. hm..... i wonder why? but hey cop, do you listen, or do you ignore what is going on in your profession and keep insisting that we all revere and respect regardless of your professions behaviors. further, the cop got his id, knew he belong and continued to harrass the man by taking his time to verify the info though he did NOT need to. per cops words, he KNEW he belonged.

put those hands to your ears, hold them tight and sing yourself a song to make you feel all warm and justified

[paulsby]

62. but yet

he starts yelling at the cop and calling him a racist. that's not intelligent civil behavior. it's boorish and classist. and he of all people KNOWs that he forced the door in. furthermore, the reason the door was broken in the first place was due to a prior burglary. that would give a person some sympathy towards the fact that it's not uncommon to have burglaries and that you would WANT a cop to respond when somebody called about somebody forcing in a door.

[seabeyond]

65. ahhhh, so now we bottom line to he was boorish, ergo warrants cops misbehavior?

do you not GET why people are pissed at the cops. he gets to be BOORISH. but still you wont own that the cop KNEW he belong and stilled harrassed the man for further verification. that gates refused to step outside cause he KNEW he could be arrested, for NOTHIING and he didnt trust the cops. and seems, like good reason.

being a cop you know that people get pissed, and you are trained to deal with that pissed, defuse, .....

yet still, you put onus on gates

the cop a veteran, trainer how to deal with this, paid professional. and he purposely escaleted

[paulsby]

71. which cops misbehavior

where did i say that gates being an assmunch justified the cop misbehaving>? i didn't . as usual, you make stuff up. gates initial refusal to step outside was what instantly set this off as an adversarial encounter. it was a poor decision, but that's the one he made. i see no reason to conclude the cop escalated it. the cop was LEAVING and gates followed him. if gates had a complaint about the cop, instead of following him outside and yelling at him repeatedly, he should have let the cop leave, got on the phone and called the cambridge PD complaint line. wow. real difficult. and like i said, if *i* was the cop, i probably would have wished gates a nice day and walked off. i don't suffer fools gladly, and if i can leave, i'll leave. but that's me. if you believe the cop (and the witnesses) gates followed the cop and stood on the porch yelling. if he continued yelling after crowley warned him that his continued yelling would constitute disorderly and he would be arrested, then i have no sympathy for him/. discretion is the better part of valor. like i said, in 20 yrs i can count the # of disorderly arrests i have made on two hands. its a blunt instrument.

[seabeyond]

72. as you recount the story, you always skip over the cops misconduct, conveniently.

and then you sit in wonder why.... people dont trust the cops. you arent involved, this has nothing to do with you, yet still.... you express in a way, ignoring the cops wrong

[paulsby]

75. which misconduct?

the only cop misconduct i saw was his refusal (apparently) to provide id. and he was , if that was the case, wrong to do so. it wouldn't stop gates from bitching to cambridge pd. assuming gates could read the frigging nametag . crowley also claimed he did say his name, but gates kept yelling over him. if gates had a problem with the individual cop, you speak to his supervisor or the complaint line. following him outside and screaming at him is moronic behavior. and i don't wonder why people don't trust the cops. as you repeatedly ignore... PEOPLE DO TRUST COPS. look at the frigging DATA. we are more respected than most other professions, trusted and respected. the polling data is clear. YOU may not trust us, but the public does. overwhelmingly. so stop ignoring htat.

[seabeyond]

79. first, he KNEW the man belonged per cops words yet continued on with verification

if he knew, he didnt need to extend the time, he was done.

he says he STARTED to provide name, .... no he did not give name per his words. now this is going off what the cop says. though you dont seem to even know gates version, let alone take anything he says as fact, you take all of the cops account as fact. i dont. but... we agree, he could have still given name and id number. but at that point he should not even be there

what you are missing, skippin over convienently is all the stuff after he KNEW he belonged is irrelevant.

[paulsby]

81. for pete's sake, gates would have NO problem

getting his name. he can call the frigging complaint line. like i said, if gates didn't provide his name, then he was wrong. is that the crime of the century? no. which stuff am i 'skipping over'.? btw, i have to go to bed now, so I won't get back to this for hours. i've read the cop reports(2 of them), aninterview with a witness, and gates account. on most of the facts they pretty much agree. there are minor differences. gates claimed he provided a license and harvard ID *(the license would presumably have his address), the cop claims he provided just the harvard ID (which doesn't). btw, as a point of irony, harvard id's are referred to as "officer cards" iirc. lol

[seabeyond]

84. repeat, for the umpteenth time. the cop KNEW he belonged in that home. did not leave

kept it going

dont let the bed bugs bite

[paulsby]

100. he DID leave.

he walked outside and gates followed him

[seabeyond]

102. he asked for id, got it, knew he belonged then called harvard police to verify

procrastinating even though he knew he belonged. the cops words. no he did not leave.

[seabeyond]

103. this is funny. picking up

right where we left off, lol. hope you are all rested. lol

i am done. tons of kids here ready to eat

[seabeyond]

70. i will tell you something else paulsby,

i would love to be able to respect the cops. i would love to respect the repugs or the christian coalition. i am a respecting kinda gal. i have never done anything more than get traffic tickets. i get them often enough. my bad. i pay them willingly supporting community. kinda like when i have over due books, i willingly turn over the cash, figuring i am supporting the good cause

there is no chip on my shoulders. i wasn't raised poor, a minority, or in an environment where i would see the worst and fear the cops. i always respect police until about mid 90's, but really during bush time is when i started really shifting seeing issue in profession that was/is being ignored by the very police that need our support. need my support.

yet police refuse to see any problems.

my rants are not to vilify, my rants are about calling a problem, acknowledging the problem, solving the problem and healing the professions ergo community. and police NEED the community to do that. it would be a good thing for the police, not a bad thing, and not painful. but to not acknowledge a truth cause you fear losing power always will allow a loser in the situation.

i prefer win win win for all. so i can again, respect our police force, appreciate the job they do, support them and fight for them.

[paulsby]

73. that;s rubbish,but not really relevant

like i said, the polling data is clear. the public DOES respect us. moreso than most professions. every year, we repeatedly rank amongst the most respected professions in the US. police see plenty of problems. i , for example, see a big problem with the war on drugs, as do many cops;. i also disagree with the over militarization of many agencies and overuse of SWAT. i can agree with balko about that. and i think society in general has too many laws and is too restrictive on behavior. i DISAGREE with many here who believe in 'bullying laws" cyberullying, who want to criminalize hate speech (contrary to the 1st amendment), and want increased federal power to investigate and prosecute crimes. i prefer more personal freedom. less govt. intrusion. and i would bet dollars to doughnuts that despite your criticism you have NEVER volunteerred to do a ridealong with a local agency so you could get a VALID opinion about how police operated, one not filtered through the media or classist ninnies like gates. it amazes me how people are so quick to judge WITHOUT gatherring data. do a ride along. my first ride along was what convinced me to become a cop. it was a "click" moment. i realized how heroic and noble cops were. because i saw it first hand.

[dgibby]

30. No luggage, just backpacks.

See my previous post for copy of police report.

[seabeyond]

35. per winess. the man came back from an overseas trip. he claims luggage. i think

i will believe gates that he had quite a few cases of luggage from his overseas trip than a back pack from his overseas trip. you might want to read gates version so it is not one sided and blindly believing what a cop says from an unwarranted arrest of an innocent man

[paulsby]

44. it wasn't what the COP said, it was what the WITNESS said

get your facts right.

[seabeyond]

46. no fuckin shit. read post slower. n/t

[Buzz Clik]

25. Wow. You're very happy to criticize Obama about making a benign comment, ...

... but you flatly refuse to accept that the cop might have been wrong?

[paulsby]

50. when did i "flatly refuse" to accept the cop might have been wrong

i never said that. what i said was that the CALL was not a racial thang. and provided evidence as to why. it is not a "benign" comment to claim a cop acted "stupidly" especially when he admitted to NOT having familiarized himself with the case, AND the fact that he is a friend of gates (whcih creates at least an appearance of bias). i have never said the cop should have arrested gates. find me ONE post where i said that. iow, you are either lying, or mistaken. i'll be charitable and assume the latter. hth

[Buzz Clik]

52. Thus far, you have refused to answer the question about whether the arrest was justified.

We'll see if you continue along that line.

[paulsby]

55. i answered it. look down the thread

it's not really the primary issue to me, because it depends on subjective factors that are largely not in evidence. iow, how loudly was gates yelling and did the officer give gates ample warning. read my other post for details.

[randr]

5. Incident was about two men with hot tempers

one of whom had authority...period.

[jberryhill]

39. ...and the other of whom had wealth and status...

Wealthy people tend to treat police like hired help.

[paulsby]

68. i agree. imo, the primary response that gates made was typical of classists

and one i am not unfamiliar with. i used to date a doctoral candidate at the Univ. when her fellow doctoral students found out she was dating a COP, it was like she told them she was dating a cro-magnon man all unfrozen. they were fascinated in the same way that people are fascinated by the reptile house at the zoo;. people literally asked her stuff like "how could you date a dumb cop?" seriously. and later i was at this party and one of them made a snarky comment , quoting foucault. i ended up quoting foucault back to him... in french. it was very satisfying :) subtle bigotry towards us working class heroes is acceptable in the same way that casual racism was acceptable in the US in the 50's. now certainly not all academics are like tis. but god knows a lot are. gates is very celebrated and very famous. i can totally see where he would be coming from. how DARE a lowly cop be questioning ME!

[randr]

94. I will not argue about "classist"

Chances are that enforcement officers have the most trouble with poor white trash domestic calls than any others.

[customerserviceguy]

6. Well, using your advice

I'll be sure to call the next cop who stops me a dumb mick or a stupid dago (depending on the last name I see on his badge) and we'll see what happens as I try to talk my way out of a ticket.

My point is, it's not 1968 anymore. You don't spit out insults at cops if you expect to be left alone for doing something you had the right to do.

It wasn't smart for Gates to be doing this, and it wasn't smart for the President to nakedly take his side so early into the game. Especially with healthcare starting to falter in Congress.

[seabeyond]

12. *sigh* cause cops abuse their power today adn if we get mad they arrest, abusing that power

still does not make it ok, nor should be now lower head, not make eye contact, become submissive because we dont want to be arrested. that only allows the problems with our police force to escalate

[customerserviceguy]

99. Somewhere between acting like a whipped puppy

and an arrogant asshole ("You don't know who you're messing with," has nothing to do with color, arrogant white people use it all the time) is a happy medium. It remains to be seen if Gates was operating near the middle of that spectrum, or at it's far end.

[reflection]

17. That was my fear as well.

This health care debate is balanced on the edge of a knife right now. As soon as the "stupidly" comment was made, I wondered how long it would take for health care to take a backseat to this story. Not very long at all, it turns out. And Obama's enemies are now emboldened by what they perceive as a misstep. It was a clumsy move by Obama, in my opinion. Here's hoping he can now shift the debate back to where it needs to be.

[paulsby]

19. it was a clumsy move

even bill cosby is criticizing it . the fact that obama is friends with gates, and made a comment that he admitted was uninformed by facts makes it worse. it was a gaffe. a big deal? no. but he made a mistake and it was both a distraction and an unfortunate insult

[Wapsie B]

7. I agree.

I know cops with the patience a social worker would envy. But no matter who you are you do not get into a pissing match with a cop, even if it's on your property and you're in the right. However seeing a video of all this would be the only true proof of what actually went down.

[Th1onein]

20. We have the RIGHT to get into a pissing match with cops.

With have the RIGHT to be belligerant, to not show deference, and yes, to be rude. It's called free speech. And if someone comes on my fucking property, STAYS on my fucking property, after he has no longer a reason to be there, it's NOT disorderly conduct to scream at him to get the fuck off of my property.

I've seen my mother call the cops and then MARCH them out of her house, screaming and shaking her finger at them, to get off of her property. They did NOTHING. Why? Because she was an elderly white woman who very obviously knew her rights.

[Wapsie B]

76. Well may I hold myself to a higher standard of behavior

but I'm not dumb enough to try and cop an attitude with the police. A little old lady may be able to get away with it. A man? Kinda doubt it. At any rate do not do something stupid and have a meltdown when dealing with police.

[Th1onein]

88. The higher standard of behavior would be to exercise your rights.

And, yes, act like an asshole, if you have to. If you don't exercise your rights, you won't have them for long. And every time you insist on the cops doing their fucking jobs without violating your rights, you are fighting the good fight, not just for yourself, but for every other American who comes along, walking in your footsteps.

Complying without protest is NOT a higher standard. This doesn't mean that you have to have a psychotic meltdown, but there's no law against calling a cop an idiot, or a pig, right to his face. If more people would do that, and then sue the shit out of them if they retaliate, there would be less of these incidents, including against blacks.

[jody]

8. "initially, the call to the cops was about race"! Do you mean that black neighbors should not call

when they see white men trying to break in to a house or that white neighbors should not call when they see black men trying to break in?

I don't believe that's what you meant but that is how some may understand your statement. :shrug:

[paulsby]

18. the statement was ridiculous

a neighbor saw two guys with backpacks forcing entry to a house and called police. that's called being a good citizen and a good neighbor. i have responded to dozens of similar calls in my career. many times, i was white people forcing entry (or climbing through a window). that's called BEING A GOOD NEIGHBOR. some turned out to be legiitamte burglaries. and we caught the bad guys. others turned out to be similar to the gates incident. in one case, it was the two kids who lived in the house climbing through their own window (they had cut school and didn't have a key). again, big deal. i can assure you when i responded, they did not start yelling at me "you racist" as gates did to the officer, and refuse to come out.

[Buzz Clik]

23. So, you justify his arrest? The cop should have hung around when he proved he lived there?

Is that what you do?

[paulsby]

28. do you have an issue with reading comprehension

my response was in response to the absurd ciaim that i responded to. read the thread again. the post i responded to. the absurd claim so try sticking to the topic. reading comprehension. it's what's for dinner. hth. it was in response "initially, the call to the cops was about race". it's dumb and unsupported. the civilian witness called because she saw two guys with backpacks FORCING THE DOOR. any good citizen would call the cops in that situations. and i have responded to many similar calls in my career. some bona fide burglaries, others not. i would hope if somebody saw a person forcing your door in, that they would call police. the claim that the call was initially about race was RIDICULOUS and that is what i was responding to. hth

[Buzz Clik]

29. I've read the thread, particularly your comments.

Care to answer my question?

[paulsby]

33. not til you address mine

it's a frequent tactic, evade and change the topic when you can't address the topic being addressed. i was responding to that claim. so, was the call "initially about race" as (wrongly) claimed or not? i have explained why it WASN'T. discuss.

[Buzz Clik]

49. I'll answer the question you asked in your first response and I'll answer your latest question:

1. Do I have a reading comprehension problem? No.

2. Do I think the call was racially motivated? No.

Your turn.

[paulsby]

53. as to your question

i think the arrest was facially valid. whether or not it showed good judgment, i am frankly not sure. i would probably NOT have made the arrest. i would have told gates to have a nice day, and left him to his vitriol. i don't suffer racists and classists like gates gladly. i just prefer to walk away. anybody who starts right away with the "your a racist" crap instantly loses credibility. it doesn't therefore follow that *i* would have arrested him. i'd like to hear more from some of the witnesses as to exactly HOW egregious gates' tirade was that led to his arrest. in my 20 yr career i haven't made more than 10 disorderly type arrests. usually, you can either defuse the situation or walk away. USUALLY. not always. if as the cop claimed, he repeatedly warned gates that he would be arrested if he kept screaming (iow assuming arguendo that's true) and assuming gates truly was yelling (in a residential neighborhood), then i'm comfortable with the arrest. what is key, imo, with disorderly situations is giving the person ample warning they will be arrested if they do not desist. that makes the decision theirs. and ime, they will almost always comply. but not always.

[Buzz Clik]

82. "i would have told gates to have a nice day, and left him to his vitriol." Cool.

It's my impression that most cops on most days would do the same thing.

[Ikonoklast]

36. Paulsby: Cops always right, authoritarian good.

You: Guilty of something, we just haven't caught you doing it yet.

The mindset is always Us vs. Them.

And we are Them.

[paulsby]

38. nice lie

cops are not always right. heck, i didn't even say the cop in this case was right. you are just a liar. what i said was the call was not based on race, specifically that there is no evidence to believe so. bigots like you just see cops and non-cops. i see people. the facts are the facts. liars are liars. you can choose to look at facts, and retract your lie. or not. it's your intellectual honesty at stake. do the right thing. hth

[Ikonoklast]

51. Go away.

You are tiresome.

End of message.

[paulsby]

56. about as cogent a response as i expected once i confronted you with your distortions

typical

[Ikonoklast]

61. Yes, you have crushed me in the grip of Reason.

I salute you.

At least I never stooped to name-calling, sir.

See, I deferred to your authoritaah.

[paulsby]

64. "poor people tend to live in clusters" nt

[DoctorMyEyes]

54. That's ridiculous

He didn't say anything of the sort. Some of the leaps and accusations made here against posters who are reluctant to jump feet first into the certainty that Crowley (and/or the person who called the police) are completely evil racists whose sole agenda is to "put the black man in his place" are over the top.

[paulsby]

58. thank you

you will note that i had never said 1) cops are always right. in fact, i have said (as any sane person would) that cops are humans and frequently make mistakes. heck i know in my career i have made many many mistakes. cops are by virtue of their job forced to make literally thousands of decisions in a career that have significant impact on other people's lives. nobody is perfect. ime, cops get very good at judgment calls (and as a trainer we look for judgment and thinking on the feet), but EVERYBODY fucks up.

[DoctorMyEyes]

80. That's the larger truth

"Everybody fucks up"

At some point or another everyone fucks up and all you can hope is that the damage is not so great that the harm will be irreparable. Some people are shitheads that seek out trouble but most are just doing the best they can. In my opinion this whole incident is a poor example to hold up as THE representation of a very real systemic problem.

From what we know so far it seems to me like a professor and a cop had an ego clash, a pissing contest, and the cop went for the "win" with an ill-advised arrest. He fucked up.

I've worked in LP for over two decades and know that there are assholes in my field and in law enforcement, as I would imagine there are in any population. They're not in the majority, but at the same time an asshole with a gun and a badge can do a lot more damage than an average asshole. And some have done terrible damage. I wish, if we were going to become outraged as a nation and have this conversation that it would have been any number of those egregious incidents that prompted it. Not this seemingly ego driven emotional incident.

I suppose I'll be called a racist apologist again. Which is as ridiculous as your having your words twisted into something you never claimed or indicated in any way.

[jody]

87. Thanks for your service as a LEO. It's sad that some criticize you and your colleagues for doing

your jobs in a professional manner.

That's ironic when SCOTUS has said repeatedly that government and its LEO are not obligated to protect an individual when attacked by criminals.

With the hostile animosity erupting from some posters I wonder why LEO are still willing to put their lives on the line to protect such ingrates.

[Th1onein]

91. Because they were HIRED to do that?

And, I don't recall SCOTUS saying repeatedly that government and it's law enforcement officers are not obligated to protect an individual when attacked by criminals. Where do you get that bullshit from?

[jody]

93. See SCOTUS quote and links below. Have a nice day.

Regarding protection by government for citizens, SCOTUS said in DESHANEY v. WINNEBAGO “A State's failure to protect an individual against private violence generally does not constitute a violation of the Due Process Clause, because the Clause imposes no duty on the State to provide members of the general public with adequate protective services.”

SCOTUS said in CASTLE ROCK v. GONZALES, “Respondent did not, for Due Process Clause purposes, have a property interest in police enforcement of the restraining order against her husband”

[Th1onein]

95. It does not say what you said it said, though.

Why don't you read it again?

[jody]

96. I've read those cases many times. One of us doesn't understand the decisions. Have a good day. n/t

[Th1onein]

97. LOL, Jody, I think it's you that doesn't READ the decisions.

You really do need to read it, Jody.

[Gothmog]

24. Prof. Gates' conduct were protected by First Amendment

We need to shift this back to the First Amendment. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6137980

[johnfunk]

31. I don't know if Emmett Till's lynching and mutilation was about race...

I've lived in Cambridge. I've had some interactions with the local constabulary. If this was not at least in part about race, then I'm General George Patton.

[alarimer]

47. Cops do not deserve deference, any more than any one else.

They were getting their authoritarian jollies by arresting a black man with a cane. Ohh, big tough guy cops.

[paulsby]

59. they do not deserve deference

they deserve civility. instantly accusing the cop who was repsonding to a burglary call of being a "racist" is not civil. gates acted like an ass in that regards. nobody claims gates should bow and scrape. i call everybody 'sir' or 'ma'am' when working, unless we are on a first name basis. that's basic civility. gates, being an apparent classist, did not believe this officer worthy of basic human decency and respect. nobody likes being accused of being a racist, yet that's pretty much the first thing gates did to the officer.

[Th1onein]

89. Nope. They don't even deserve civility.

It is not illegal to be uncivil to a cop. That's where the problem here lies. Gates was arrested because he was a black man who DARED question the cop.

[paulsby]

101. you are confusing what is legal

with what people should do. i never said it was ILLEGAL not to be civil. i said cops DESERVE civility. that you fail to grok the difference is telling. gates wasn't arrested because he dared question/ gates was arrested because he followed the cop outside, kept screaming at him, despite the officer telling him to stop. hth

[LynneSin]

63. You're kidding me right?

If anything I could justify the call more than what the cops did. (and then even barely). Thing is this, if Gates was white, the call may or may not have been made but the cops would have asked about a break-in, Gates would have said 'I live here and loss my key' and the cops would have asked if everything was ok and been on their way.

[City of Mills]

66. I can't wait for the spin

When Sgt. Crowley's black colleagues come forward and defend him against the charges of racism being thrown around.

Wait for it...you'll see!

[paulsby]

77. there were "black colleagues" at the scene

and the guy who recommended crowley for the teaching position was black. this is NOT a racial issue, despite people trying to spin it that way.

[Raineyb]

78. What spin?

The blue wall has always stronger than racial alliance. You think black cops don't help perpetuate the racism of the institution they work for? There are some who try to change things from within I suppose but most will go along to get along. Otherwise they wouldn't be in that job for very long in the first place.

I wouldn't be surprised if his black colleagues came out to defend him. But as they're cops the wouldn't have much in the line of credibility. Of course I'm sure you're looking forward to it so you can have a black face to agree with your rather odious opinion of the place of the citizenry vis a vis the police.

[City of Mills]

83. Sounds like your profiling cops

is that any better...but yeah, I did assume and expect the 'blue line' defense would come into play if god forbid someone who actually knows and works with Sgt. Crowley came to his defense - and wouldn't it have to be a black face in order to have any legitimacy? I don't think a white cop coming to a fellow white cop's defense is going to have any sway with those who are already convinced that this is first and foremost, a racist action by a racist cop.

I've said it before, I think these two are both proud men, neither backed down and ultimately the guy with the badge is in control of the situation, and it was his mistake not to de-escalate it. Even though the charges are now dropped, Prof. Gates was humiliated, his fingerprints taken, and has mugshots which will float around the Internet for years to come. That is inexcusable and unfair.

[Raineyb]

85. Those who constantly excuse the cops seem to think that a black face lends legitimacy

because they seem to be under the impression that a black cop vouching for the man makes a difference when its the whole bloody institution that's a problem. Yet another representative of said institution no matter what color he is isn't going to be any more credible. I don't understand why you think any representative from said agency has much credibility considering the remarks still coming out of said institution and the history this department has when it comes to racial profiling in the first place.

[City of Mills]

86. Oh, I don't know

So basically, there's no one credible who could vouch for the officer's integrity, since (1) any fellow cop is automatically disqualified, (2) any non-cop wasn't present during the incident and therefore isn't qualified to judge, yet anyone who reads about the incident online can automatically judge and know for sure that the cop's actions were racist.

Even when Prof. Gates says, in his own words -

I kept saying to him, ‘What is your name, and what is your badge number?’ and he refused to respond. I asked him three times, and he refused to respond. And then I said, ‘You’re not responding because I’m a black man, and you’re a white officer.’ That’s what I said. He didn’t say anything.

That sounds like HE'S the one that wants this to be a racist issue. There ARE plenty of racist cops, of all colors, and plenty of clear cut examples of unjustified arrests based on the suspect (or victim's) skin color. In my opinion, this isn't one of those cases. I could be wrong of course, but I don't think I am.

The police academy that Sgt. Crowley works with is taught out of my college, I see the instructors and students all the time, they are a part of the college community and and a great mix of guys from all the area departments. If Sgt. Crowley is a racist racial profiler, he sure picked the wrong profession and the wrong program to work for!

[Th1onein]

92. Whether they were rascist or not, they WERE in violation of his civil rights.

Specifically, his First and Fourth Amendment rights.

[Raineyb]

98. He had every right to request a name and badge number

So why didn't Crowley give Prof. Gates his name and badge number? Crowley was obligated by law to do so. Could it be that he didn't think that Prof. Gates had any rights that he need bother to respect? Would he have been so disrespectful of a white man in his house? I don't think so.

I don't care if Crowley teaches at the police academy. He's in the wrong profession and the last thing we need is more asshats like him on the force. You seem to be under the impression that the fact that he teaches racial profiling mitigates what he did to Prof. Gates. It does not so bringing it up again and again doesn't change the fact that this man arrested Prof. Gates for no damn reason after he established that Prof. Gates lives in the house. There's no law against not being obsequious towards the police. Officer Crowley clearly needs a reminder of that fact.

[Raineyb]

74. Jesus H Christ another goddamned uppity citizen thread.

Just stop the bullshit already.

[DireStrike]

90. It isn't. -nt-