Gates - guilty or not?

[proud2BlibKansan]

[virgogal]

1. The charges have been dropped---guilty of what?

[Xipe Totec]

2. The fact that the charges were dropped

is proof that the officer acted stupidly.

[elocs]

3. Well, he is guilty of not having the key to his front door.

Been there, done that.

[AlexinVA]

8. He had the key to his front door...

The door was jammed.

[seabeyond]

4. not guilty adn cop an asshole.... n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

5. I'm tired of bullies, in schools in the police department, everywhere

No wonder in the 60s they called them pigs.

[backscatter712]

20. Hey, I still call them pigs.

No use letting a good pejorative go unused...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

21. Amen! nt

[-..__...]

53. Like wow man... I'm having a 60's flashback here.

And people wonder why some cops have an attitude WRT to the public, but the public refuses to analyze it's own perception about "the man".

If it means anything to you... I'm hardly a big time supporter of law enforcement myself (fuck... I think armor piercing bullets should be legal for civilians to own just in case of those certain, special circumstances).

But to think of every single cop as being a "pig" is hypocritical and no different than thinking every single black person is a "nigger" or criminal.

[seabeyond]

66. tired of bullies,... me too. and what do you do with a bully? stand up to them

it is what i teach my kids and i will do no less

[Sarah Ibarruri]

84. True, but what do you do

What do you do when you're an elderly person, and the bully psycho has a gun and is allowed by his job to use it and do just about anything he wants?

[seabeyond]

85. look him in the eye. at the risk of challenging the cop. cause i had audacity

too look in the eye and not be intimidated.

what bothers me the most are all the many posters that say

hey, he is a cop. we know suppose to keep mouth shut, be respectful regardless of his behavior. just be submissive.

they are the problem, they feed the problem and they are the cowards in my book. the person, anyone, that allows a bully to be empowers the bully for the next time

[Sarah Ibarruri]

86. You might be a tough guy but more than one tough guy has been shot by a psycho cop

:(

[seabeyond]

87. not a guy, not tough, a wuss and scardy cat. still, i dont know how to be intimidated

i learned that years ago at the airport right after 911 when i had a cop try to intimidate, i didnt get intimidated and then as i walked away i said. .... sheeeeit, i was suppose to be intimidated. my bad

that made me realize my own vulnerability with this godlike attitude of police, hence why i work so hard to address it. my ass will be the one on the ground, knee in hsoulder, handcuffed adn arrested cause i didnt think to be intimidated. i dont do it on purpose, i just dont think about being intimidated.

i am a middle aged white woman myself having lived a cushy life, regardless of hardship here and there. so nothing special about me. just have always stood up to bullies with the understanding i may get my ass kicked. thankfully, has never happened

but certainly not brave, or tough or anything else. pissed

[Sarah Ibarruri]

90. I'm in your club. I'm pissed too LOL!

If all of the women who are pissed at Repugs joined together... watch out!

}(

[seabeyond]

91. the thing, you and i are the constant to police support. and they are losing you and i. and still

they refuse to recognize they have a problem.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

92. They have to be sued, sued until the laws change and they cannot do what they do

Until then, they will continue to abuse people.

[N7255Q]

6. Not guilty but pretty stupid. One does not, if one is smart, pick a fight with a cop

or a rattlesnake.

[seabeyond]

10. right. we must all be intimidated and subservient to them to avoid arrest. you are

part of the problem.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

30. right. this white upper middle class white woman hates white cops. what a fuckin

stupid thing to say. what i hate is cops that have abused their power to such an extent and having experienced their need to intimidate and refusing to do myself seeing how i have done nothing worse than speed ever in my life create such an environment where even i cant support their ass.

if i cant support the police, you tell me who the fuck is besides the chicken shit, afraid little people that are willing to lose their rights in order to "feel" safe.

the ops created this environment, their bosses that did not draw strong boundaries and the decline of their support in communities.

if a cop is going to try intimidating me, then i can damn well believe they are going to do it with people that are in more tenuous circumstances

and that is pure crap

we dont TRUST the cops any more. i teach my children not to trust them. be wary.

this is what the cops have created for themselves

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

40. are you real? are you for real? this is a serious problem for our police force

it would behoove them to actually recognize the problem and start addressing the issue. they need our support. they wont get it with this behavior. or people like you that refuse to acknowledge the problem will be the enabler that will cause this problem to continue to escalate. it wont be good for any of us

but bury your head

be offended by a couple of words

question my parenting with absolutely no insight, knowledge ro information

and feel vindicated in all your cleverness

[Raineyb]

88. You're either really fucking stupid or a big fucking coward

Which one is it that you can't stand up to a public servant?

It's people like you that allows the cops to get away with their outrageous behavior in the first place.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. Asking for name and badge number is picking a fight?

[N7255Q]

18. Doing it in the way that's described by witnesses, yes.

There are remedies available after the fact. But I understand that I'm not allowed to criticize him here because that would mean I'm a racist. I'm not but that won't stop the purists from making the accusation.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. What witnesses?

Gates said he asked for name and badge number when they were in the house.

[N7255Q]

29. And the officers had a different version. She said, he said.

You choose to believe one side and don't care about anything that contradicts what you already consider to be the absolute truth.

[seabeyond]

31. reading the report the cop also purposely drew him out of the house with intent to arrest

i dont believe a damn thing the cop says

[N7255Q]

36. So it's perfectly OK for you to pile hateful opprobrium on all cops because one screwed up?

Doesn't give you much room to complain about bigotry.

[seabeyond]

41. ONE? do you look around in your world or just bury your head. that one apple is a whole orchard.

this is not ONE. if it were just ONE, you wouldnt be seeing this anger.

geeeesh

be informed

[merh]

72. Freedom of Speech

Ain't the USofA grand. Cops are supposed to be trained to be able to handle upset citizens. They were in the days when their motto was to "protect and serve" and not "taze and arrest".

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. Cop has every reason to lie

He is a paid public servant who could lose his job if he screws up. I have no doubt whatsoever that cops falsify their reports to make themselves look innocent of any wrong doing.

[merh]

71. Your ignorance of Massachusetts case law is showing, as is the

Cambridge Police Dept.'s lack of proper training (and Crowley is a trainer :scared: ).

Commonwealth v. Mulvey
57 Mass. App. Ct. 579 (March 14, 2003)

Police presence in and of itself does not by itself turn an otherwise purely private outburst into disorderly conduct.

The defendant was charged with disorderly conduct for yelling and pacing on private property that was set back from the road in a secluded area. There was no one around at the time except police officers. While the statute requires that the disturbance be such that it had or was likely to have an impact upon people in an area accessible to the public, the presence of police officers alone will not suffice to prove the public element.

In reaching its decision, the Court noted that the rationale behind criminalizing disorderly conduct rests on the belief that a disorderly person can provoke violence in others. Given that an inherent part of police work involves being in the presence of distraught individuals, and given that police officers are trained to maintain order, the Court concluded that police should be the least likely to be provoked. Therefore, police presence alone does not satisfy the public element.

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=dmdaterminal&L=5&L0=Home&L1=Court+Decisions&L2=Court+Decisions+by+Topic&L3=Crimes&L4=Disorderly+Conduct&sid=Dmdaa&b=terminalcontent&f=courts_mulvey&csid=Dmdaa

[EFerrari]

73. And Crowley is a trainer!

:scared:

[proud2BlibKansan]

74. Good catch

I had forgotten that.

But he tried to save that basketball player's life so he's all okay now. :sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

75. merh caught it. But, holy cow, he once touched a black person

so he's good!

[seabeyond]

78. the thing, he was like 5 yrs a trainer. he knew what he was doing. and he knew

he was feeding the anger and escalating. he is a gd trainer and aware and knowledgeable.

[merh]

79. Yup, he instructs recruits at the Lowell Police Academy on how to avoid racial profiling.

And the Commish stands by him, says he went by the book.

Cambridge commish: Crowley went by the book
By Jessica Van Sack, O’Ryan Johnson and Marie Szaniszlo
Friday, July 24, 2009 - Updated 4h ago

The Cambridge police commissioner yesterday stood firmly behind the sergeant who hauled away prominent African-American scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. in cuffs last week, saying the arrest was “a last resort” that followed department policy and national standards.

Also yesterday, the Herald first reported online that Sgt. James Crowley, the 11-year Cambridge cop who made the arrest, instructs recruits at the Lowell Police Academy on how to avoid racial profiling.

“I believe that Sgt. Crowley acted in a way that is consistent with his training at the department and consistent with national standards,” said Cambridge Police Commissioner Robert Haas. “I do not believe his actions were in any way racially motivated . . . I think he did his best to de-escalate the situation.”

Nevertheless, Haas said he would form a panel of “independant, notable professionals to join in the analysis of the incident and make recommendations.

more @ http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1186767

Scarey, ain't it. :scared:

[cherokeeprogressive]

58. Did you read the police report?

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. Yes I did

[Mind_your_head]

70. How's life in your mom's basement? eom

[SemiCharmedQuark]

7. Guilty of what? Are you asking if yelling at someone is an arrestable offense?

[Incitatus]

9. other

2 and 3

[Amonester]

11. You forgot an option.

The bully retardblican a-hole cop is guilty.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6134165

[KamaAina]

12. Well, since all charges have been dropped...

... I voted "cop is an asshole". :P

[-..__...]

13. You left out "Gates is an asshole"

Nice attempt at rigging the poll though.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. Well since this is DU

I didn't really expect anyone to believe Gates is an asshole.

[-..__...]

24. Yeah... hivemind and conformist mentality would preclude that.

My fault for even thinking of it.

[Cha]

27. There's always an

asshole around DU that would be the exception.

[N7255Q]

28. He isn't but he very well may have behaved like one. Similar to how the President

commented about the cop...not stupid but behaving that way.

[EFerrari]

47. So are you saying our president behaved stupidly because

he defended a friend or because he condemned a bad arrest that has been thrown out or because he drew attention to our own going problem with racial profiling?

[Skip Intro]

77. zeig heil, man n/t

[N7255Q]

23. Yes but that isn't a PC choice as I am discovering.

Double standards at work.

[merh]

80. You still at it.

You are mistaken and even Crowley's report reflects his failures (though he tried to purdy it up.)

Let me repeat this language from the Mass Supreme Court case.

Given that an inherent part of police work involves being in the presence of distraught individuals, and given that police officers are trained to maintain order, the Court concluded that police should be the least likely to be provoked.

It doesn't matter what type of person Gates is, Crowley is supposed to be a trained professional. His job is to protect and serve, not escalate a situation and then arrest.

[WeDidIt]

15. I voted Gates is not guilty

But I think this was a case of both the cop and Gates being assholes.

Of course, the cop is paid to be a professional and anybody can be an asshole in their own home.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. I think I agree with you

But I wouldn't call Gates an asshole. He was wrong to yell at the cop but he had every right to be angry.

[-..__...]

35. YOU might not call Gates an an "asshole"...

but others might disagree.

So... why doesn't the poll at least give voters the opportunity to choose that option/opinion?

[N7255Q]

38. It's a push poll. Which when done by the other side is a BAD thing.

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

50. Because the poll assumes some cultural literacy and common sense.

[-..__...]

54. Ohh... that's rich...

because "common sense" is so common that even a commoner can do it. :eyes:

Puhh-leeze... your elitist "cultural literacy" evaluation has no application in the real world.

What fucking "Star Trek" planetary system of perfection do you hail from anyways?

[EFerrari]

57. Still working on basic communication. Good boy. Don't give up.

[-..__...]

61. All potatoes...

no meat.
I rest my case.

(qryvorengr zvffcryyvat bs Dhnlyr "cbgngbrf" gb qrzbafgengr lbhe anvir jnl bs guvaxvat)

[EFerrari]

64. I imagine your case would be improved with a little rest

in a nice quiet room.

[-..__...]

68. Yes...

because trying to address your ignorance and lack of awareness has left me exhausted.

We can keep this going as long as you like you know, but in all seriousness I do have to work tomorrow.

[EFerrari]

69. There's a scary thought. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

60. Cause I left it out

You can always post your own poll.

[rwheeler31]

17. Why keep this shit going , it is done . Point made by the

President people of different backgrounds see things differently.

[Canuckistanian]

26. Excuse me? Guilty of what, exactly?

Mouthing off to a police officer?

I believe it's a God-given RIGHT to tell a police officer to stick it where the sun don't shine, ESPECIALLY on your own property, when you're being accused of breaking and entering into your own house.

[REP]

34. My question, too

Of course the race factor is maddening, but what really pisses me off is, well, everything about the incident. How dare someone "break" into their own house and tell a cop to get lost once he's shown his papers?

[Canuckistanian]

42. I mean, how dumb does this cop have to be?

And older, well-dressed black gentleman is doing something that looks suspicious.

Sure, he's combative, but he produces ID that corroborates his story.

BOOM! That should be the end of the story.

But, no.......

[alcibiades_mystery]

33. ...

[LisaL]

37. Maybe you should add what is he guilty or not guilty of.

Because your poll doesn't make sense.

[Ohio Joe]

39. It appears to me the police found him guilty of being black

I did not vote in the poll.

[Jennicut]

43. Guilty of what? Being a black man? Being pissed off at the police who were acting stupid?

[MajorChode]

46. How can you possibly know the police were acting stupid?

If one of your neighbors reports someone is breaking into your home, do you think it would be smart for the cops to just assume whoever it was lived there?

[EFerrari]

51. Because they arrested Gates AFTER he identified himself?

And in doing that, let themselves and their department in for a world of hurt? That's pretty fucking stupid.

[MajorChode]

56. The arrest had nothing to do with whether he identified himself or not

Failure to properly identify yourself to a law enforcement officer is a crime in most places, and according to police Gates did initially refuse to identify himself. He could have been arrested on that basis alone. However, that's NOT why he was arrested.

If you are yelling at anyone(let alone the cops) outside your house you can be arrested for disorderly conduct. If challenged, the charges are almost always dropped because it's impossible to precisely define what crosses the line on being disorderly and the charge is only a misdemeanor anyway. The arrest is more about diffusing the situation.

[EFerrari]

59. Wrong and fail. They were there to investigate a burglary.

He showed them none was in progress. Then, they got stupid. And no, the arrest did not diffuse anything. It was an escalation that they will regret long and well.

[MajorChode]

65. Again you bring up irrelevant facts and assume things as fact you can't possibly know

Why they were there is irrelevant to why he got arrested. So far the police chief, the union, and the officer in question regret nothing other than the assumptions made by yourself and others. Nothing has been reported about the officer's history to support a charge of racism, abuse of power, or incompetence.

The arrest certainly diffused Gates. If I'm near someone who yells and rants incessantly even after being warned by the police to stop, I hope they get arrested too. I've been in that situation and watched when the cops cuffed and stuffed a guy who wouldn't STFU and I fully supported them.

So far, just about the only thing that supports Gates' version of events is the word of Gates' himself. So I'll ask you. Other than Gates' word, what evidence do you have that supports your assertion that the cops acted stupidly?

[MajorChode]

44. It will be interesting to see what the audio tapes reveal

People here on DU seem to be quick to prejudge the officer, presumably on the behavior of what they have heard about other police officers. Therefore in all fairness I'm going to offer some prejudgment on how I feel about university professors. Many of them are pompous egotistical assholes who think they are smarter and better than everyone else. Gates would have also been feeling quite stressed out under the circumstances and he may have done some things that weren't all that smart and now he can't let it go.

I can more easily believe that Gates deserved to be arrested, than I can believe the officer acted improperly. However I'm not going to claim I know what happened for certain either way as others seem to think.

However, I do hope the officer DID act improperly, because if he didn't and the audio tapes bear that out, this thing is going to blow up into a major distraction that is going to take a lot of attention away from the health care debate where it belongs.

[Spider Jerusalem]

45. Guilty of? Forcing the door of his own home?

Almost nine hundred years of common law, and the US Constitution, say otherwise.

XXIX. NO Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the Land. We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right.
- Magna Carta, 1215

The house of every one is to him as his castle and fortress, as well for his defence against injury and violence as for his repose.
-Sir Edward Coke (Attorney General of England), on Semayne's Case of 1604

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

(Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution)

[Sebastian Doyle]

48. This thread just wouldn't be complete without a little music

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSvD5SM_uI4

[proud2BlibKansan]

76. Perfect!

[depakid]

49. guilty of rudeness, maybe

[MUAD_DIB]

52. Is this a CNN based poll?

:rofl:

[Fuzz]

55. Of what?

[HughMoran]

67. Between Cop Is an Asshole and Not Guilty

I think the few favoring the cop are a huge minority here.

[MajorChode]

81. And your point is?

Argumentum ad populum or argumentum ad misericordiam?

Something else?

[saltpoint]

82. I see no grounds for arrest. Prof. Gates lived at the house.

He produced his ID when asked.

[TheKentuckian]

83. Damn the authoritarian taint lickers are all in a tizzy.

Guess what cops need to be taught and learn their place-CIVIL SERVANTS and OFFICERS OF THE FUCKING PEACE. NOBODY should be expected to suck them off or even be respectful if they are not so inclined. Those that can't handle 'uppity' citizens should turn in their badge and sidearm.

[Hutzpa]

89. He is guilty for being black

according to some....}(