Vote on the Senate concealed-carry amendment going on right now

[derby378]

Feingold, Harry Reid, and Webb voting Aye.

Klobuchar, Feinstein, and Inoue voting No.

Anyone have a link to a live blog for the full voting roster?

[derby378]

1. McCaskill - NO

[derby378]

2. Casey and Tester - AYE, Lieberman - NO

[RDANGELO]

3. What does the bill do?

[derby378]

9. It increases CHL reciprocity among states that allow concealed-carry

Some say it goes too far in watering down restrictions, while others say it preserves the most stringent requirements to carry a handgun in each state.

[joeybee12]

12. It waters them down...

...how can someone say with a straight face that it preserves the most striongent requirements? Insanity.

[virginia mountainman]

17. Comments like this, prove how much you know...

Nothing in the bill, "Waters down" existing law

[joeybee12]

23. And comments like yours prove you know nothing at all...

....forces states to recognize the other states...so if I can take my concealed weapon into a playground or park in texas, when i go to Colorado, i can do the same. It makes the Colorado law weker, it waters it down, because it has to recognize the Texas laws. It's insanity.

The wording is very simple and straightforward and easy to understand...for reasonable people.

[Statistical]

29. No it doesn't (and lying over and over after you are corrected won't make it so)

It recognized TX LICENSE not TX LAW.
So if you are in CO you are subject to the laws of CO.

It is very simple and straightforward.

‘Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof:CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

‘(1) A person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, and is carrying a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of any State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm, may carry a concealed firearm in accordance with the terms of the license or permit in any State that allows its residents to carry concealed firearms, subject to the laws of the State in which the firearm is carried concerning specific types of locations in which firearms may not be carried.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-s845/text

Anymore outright lies you want dispelled?

[joeybee12]

36. Thank you for posting an example of bad legislation...

...there's such a thing as intent, which courts rule on all the time...if this bill were written stronger, you'd have a point, again, you don't.

[Statistical]

38. What part of reading don't you understand.

"subject to the laws of the State in which the firearm is carried concerning specific types of locations in which firearms may not be carried."

SUBJECT TO THE LAWS OF THE STATE IN WHICH THE FIREARM IS CARRIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I mean it is plain English not even legalese.

If you carry in CA you are subject to the laws of CA.
If you carry in CO you are subject to the laws of CO.
....
<insert 47 more states>
If you carry in VA you are subject to the law of VA.

[X_Digger]

30. A box of rocks makes more sense..

.. it's about licensing, not where they can be carried..

[Recursion]

16. The amendment more or less forces reciprocity among states with concealed-carry licenses

http://www.landlinemag.com/Special_Reports/2009/July09/072109-concealed-carry.htm

So if I have a concealed-carry permit from, say, Texas, and I'm in another state, say Missouri, that has concealed carry permits, this would (IIRC) by default make Missouri recognize my Texas permit. But I haven't read the whole amendment, either.

[derby378]

4. Kerry - NO

[derby378]

5. Begich and Landrieu - AYE

[derby378]

6. Gillibrand - NO

[derby378]

7. Shaheen and Menendez - NO

[derby378]

8. Specter - NO

[imdjh]

10. Why does this take so long?

[joeybee12]

11. Feingold voted yes??????

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Statistical]

15. Feingold stance has always been mixed. Voting for responsible gun control

Like NICS modernization act, or the instant background check but at the same time voting against useless feel good gun laws.

Feingold either neither purely pro or anti RKBA.

[virginia mountainman]

13. LIVE STREAMING LINK!!!!

http://www.c-span.org/Watch/C-SPAN2_wm.aspx

[derby378]

14. Baucus - AYE

[Ioo]

18. Failed - only 58 votes, needed 60

[derby378]

19. Ayes 58, Nays 39 - amendment is WITHDRAWN

Under a previous agreement, 60 votes were needed to pass the Thune amendment.

[joeybee12]

24. Praise Jebus! the gun nuts have lost one even with dem enablers!

A victory for common sense!!!!!!

[virginia mountainman]

28. LOL Paul Helmke walks among us...NT

[virginia mountainman]

20. CRAP........

We have more work to do...

[Ioo]

21. You wanted it to pass?

[virginia mountainman]

25. Absolutely!!

Don't you want states to recognize licenses and documents from other states??

Like Marriage Licenses...and Drivers Licenses??

[Winterblues]

33. Only if they are uniform

Concealed carry permits are not uniform nor are hunting and fishing licenses. If you wish for all states to accept such maybe a federal license is the way to go..Take away the States right to make such regulations..

[N7255Q]

35. Marriage licenses aren't uniform either. They are wildly different in Iowa and Kansas

for example.

[Statistical]

39. Driver's licenses & marriage licenses aren't uniform should they not be respected across borders?

[Winterblues]

41. Why should states make any regulations at all then if they aren't to be followed?

Why not just make every license issued a Federal License? You are suggesting a State should not have the right to regulate their own State, but must comply with the lowest common denominator. Many states will not recognize gay marriages so not all marriage licenses are recognized. I think every state has pretty much the same requirements when it comes to driving though.

[Statistical]

44. Driver's license requirements are similar but they do vary as are CCW.

For example in VA first DUI is a mandatory suspension, second DUI is mandatory jail time.
In some states driver's have no suspension (not even a single day) for 2, 3, 4, 5 DUIs.
So a habitual driver from a state w/ low DUI enforcement could come to VA, and VA is obligated to accept driver's licenses from all states despite differences in license issue, license revoking, periodic testing and insurance requirements.

To bring up gay marriage is sad. Is that your argument. Two wrongs don't make it a right. I would hope the goal is marriage equality eventually. So once marriage equality exists will you then reconsider you regressive stance on firearms?

Furthermore CCW requirements are mostly similar from state to state. Where they get hung up on it state law.

Say NC requires a 9 hour gun safety course and that is the law. VA doesn't know about NC law and passes shall issue CCW with a 8 hour gun safety course. VA and NC may not have repiprocity. The attorney generals need to look at the law and see if the law legally allows reciprocity.

Likewise say NC & VA both require fingerprint. NC drops the fingerprint requirement do they still have reciprocity? Now that is just between 2 states. Each states needs to look at the other 49 states currently. On top of that the rules are constantly changing so reciprocity agreements are broken.

There is no national system to verify reciprocity agreements. Even printing out VA state police website doesn't do any good because if VA is wrong as say reciprocity exists w/ NC it doesn't do you any good when you are arrested in NC.

Most law abiding gun owners want to do the right thing. The current shifting inconsistent system make it difficult to ensure you are compliant with the law. The law should be to protect citizens not a technical gotcha because an agreement between to AG from different states is in dispute.

[N7255Q]

50. Thanks for your logical and non-hysterical comment

:hi:

[N7255Q]

22. Yep. They caved into the GOP Brady gang.

grr

[Name removed]

27. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Statistical]

26. FULL TEXT of the bill is here.

‘Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof:

‘(1) A person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, and is carrying a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of any State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm, may carry a concealed firearm in accordance with the terms of the license or permit in any State that allows its residents to carry concealed firearms, subject to the laws of the State in which the firearm is carried concerning specific types of locations in which firearms may not be carried.

‘(2) A person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, and is otherwise than as described in paragraph (1) entitled to carry a concealed firearm in and pursuant to the law of the State in which the person resides, may carry a concealed firearm in accordance with the laws of the State in which the person resides in any State that allows its residents to carry concealed firearms, subject to the laws of the State in which the firearm is carried concerning specific types of locations in which firearms may not be carried.’.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-s845/text

Despite all the doom & gloom the bill does only 1 thing.

If you have a CCW from state X (AND ARE ALLOWED TO POSSESS A FIREARM PER FEDERAL LAW) you can carry in state y if state y allows carry.

If a state doesn't want anyone to carry they can simply make conceal carry illegal and nobody (in state or out of state) can carry.

[joeybee12]

34. It does one thing...

...it allows nutjobs who can get a concealed weapons permit in a state with virtually no restrictions on getting that permit take that gun into a state that had more stringent regulations. nice try.

[Statistical]

37. Except there is no such state (except in your mind)

All states following the 1968 Gun Control Act which define the following people as prohibited persons:

Under the GCA, firearms possession by certain categories of individuals is prohibited.
1. Anyone who has been convicted in a federal court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year, excluding crimes of imprisonment that are related to the regulation of business practices.
2. Anyone who has been convicted in a state court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 2 years, excluding crimes of imprisonment that are related to the regulation of business practices.
3. Anyone who is a fugitive from justice.
4. Anyone who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance.
5. Anyone who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution.
6. Any alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa.
7. Anyone who has been discharged from the US Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions.
8. Anyone who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his or her citizenship.
9. Anyone that is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner.
10. Anyone who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence (added in 1996). (See the Lautenberg Amendment.)

Added to that in 1989 was a provision that excludes anyone indicted for any of the offenses above.

[joeybee12]

40. Alaska allows for getting a permit and being exempt from the

the NICS background check.

Try again.

[X_Digger]

43. And violating any of those conditions revokes your permit..

.. try again.

[joeybee12]

48. Assuming up is down and you are right, let's talk about the resources needed

to ensure the permit from the other state is valid, lets talk about costs and manpower...lets talk about tight budgets in a recssion. Fool.

[Statistical]

52. We validate driver's licenses across borders.

Most CCW licenses are already accepted in multiple states so the same database clearinghouses could be used.

Of course CCW permit holders pay substantial fees $80 - $150 for a $1 background check and about 5 minutes of paperwork so any cost of a system could be paid by the surplus fees collected.

Say an average of $20 per year * 6 million CCW permit holders = $120 million more than enough for interstate data sharing and enforcement.

[X_Digger]

54. Reciprocity already exists..

.. A TX permit is honored in 28 states, a FL permit is honored in 29 states, etc etc etc.

Only states that honor only their own permits (NY, CA, MA, NJ, DC, MD) would have to change.

[Statistical]

59. Interesting all 6 of those are "may issue" = "may infringe" states.

Only the rich, the powerful, the famous, and the political have a right to own a gun.
The masses need not apply.

If they don't trust their own poor & middle class with guns they must be scared shitless to think of poor and middle class "foreigners" (outside the state) with guns.

[Statistical]

46. You are clueless....

To get a permit you must pass an NICS check.

Alaska allows purchasing a firearm without completing NICS check because to have the permit you have already been cleared by NICS.

Of course none of this allows one to get a license as a felon, or mentally ill, or commit domestic violence offense.

So please point out this state that allows any prohibited class of Gun Control Act 1968 to have a CCW.

[joeybee12]

47. Clueless defines you...

you are assuming that all states enforce this, you are assuming all states have the resources to ensure this is carried out...get a clue.

[Statistical]

51. How about the law instead.....

AS 18.65.705. Qualifications to Obtain a Permit.
A person is qualified to receive and hold a permit to carry a concealed handgun if the person
(1) is 21 years of age or older;
(2) is eligible to own or possess a handgun under the laws of this state and under federal law;
(3) is a resident of the state and has been for the 90 days immediately preceding the application for a permit;
(4) has not been convicted of two or more class A misdemeanors of this state or similar laws of another jurisdiction within the six years immediately preceding the application;
(5) is not now in and has not in the three years immediately preceding the application been ordered by a court to complete an alcohol or substance abuse treatment program; and
(6) has successfully completed a handgun course as provided in AS 18.65.715.

http://touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/STATUTES/Title18/Chapter65/Section705.htm

So in AK to get a permit you need to be 21, be eligible to own a firearm under federal law (i.e. none of the 11 clases of prohibited person apply), take a gun safety course, have no more than 2 class A misdemeanors, and not have been ordered to drug abuse program.

The actual application also requires fingerprint and color photograph.

[Redneck Socialist]

31. Any link to the roll call?

It may be too early but I can't find a complete list of the ayes and nays.

[Statistical]

32. +1 I was looking also but haven't seen one. If anyone finds a roll call link it. n/t

[backscatter712]

42. FAIL!!!

Hell, I'm pro-Second-Amendment and have had a concealed carry permit, and I thought this particular amendment was a bad idea!

[Statistical]

53. Why?

[backscatter712]

61. Varying CCW laws between states.

Most states that have CCW are generally good - they do background checks of CCW applicants, have them take training classes, and in general weed out the felons and psychos.

Some states (Florida comes to mind) are sloppy at this, and they've let a few assclowns have carry permits.

By passing this amendment, all the other states in the union with CCW would be required to honor the permits from the states that let assclowns get permits, which gets problematic.

Yeah, I'm pro-2nd-Amendment, but I also oppose laws that make it legal to carry guns in bars - drinking and carrying is about as stupid and dangerous as drinking and driving.

[Statistical]

62. Never use antecdotes....

Florida has issued 1.5 million CCW. Only 520 have been revoked due to the person being ineligible.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

Thats a 99.96% success rate. Most states don't even publish the stats so who knows you state could have a failure rate 100x higher.

[anonymous171]

45. Isn't this amendment kind of "big government"-y? nt

[N7255Q]

49. It sure is! If this thing ever passed, next people would want gay marriages from Massachusetts

being recognized by Alabama.

We couldn't have THAT.

[Redneck Socialist]

55. Roll call

full listing of ayes and nays here

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=111&session=1&vote=00237

[joeybee12]

56. I don't see one repuke voting no, not even the Twin sisters of Evil...

...most dems are the bluedogs, which isn't a surprise.

[X_Digger]

57. Lugar and Voinovich

Reading is fundamental.

[Statistical]

58. Throw in Specter who is simply a turncoat Repuke with a new home.

[Statistical]

60. Kinda strange.... Leahy & Sanders voted Nay despite VT having pro-RKBA record.