In 2012, you'll have a choice between Obama and the repuke candidate

[cali]

sure, you can vote for someone who won't even break 1%, or you can stay at home, but the fact remains that either Obama will retain the presidency or we'll see a repuke sworn in.

Reality may suck but you can't escape it.

[armyowalgreens]

1. Fuck my life.

[depakid]

2. You never know

Perot got a LOT more than 1% and three years is an eternity in politics/

[LAGC]

3. We'll just have to see who the third-party candidates are.

If the economy is still doing really shitty come 2012 and the Repukes put up a detestable candidate, anything is possible.

Jesse Ventura, anyone? (He pulled it off in Minnesota...)

[armyowalgreens]

5. In all honesty, when has a third party EVER been close to gaining power?

Yes, third parties have helped split major parties in the past. But they have never gained enough support to be elected. I don't see any reason to believe that a massive shift in public opinion of a "tri-party system" will occur.

Could we eventually see a powerful third party? Sure. But 3 years is not enough time to see that change.

[LAGC]

7. The Republicans were once a third party.

And the Whigs were once one of the mainstream parties.

All it takes is enough people who've had enough of the Establishment parties to cause a seismic upheaval in the political arena.

[armyowalgreens]

8. I'm not contesting history. I'm saying that change takes time...or lots of blood shed.

So either we pray for a second civil war or we try as best we can to change public opinion and hope for the best.

[cali]

9. yeah, that's likely.

[WeDidIt]

38. That's not how it has worked historically.

Historically, one party crashes and burns while the other party takes complete and total control. Then another party emerges.

There has never been a third party emerge in US poltics prior to one of the two main parties crashing and burning completely.

[Clintonista2]

17. Ross Perot actually came pretty close

Before he dropped out he was actually ahead of both Clinton and Bush in the polls.

[Sebastian Doyle]

46. Ross Perot was the leading candidate in 1992 for a while.

His downfall was dropping out of the race, then dropping back in. And even then, he took enough votes that the winner (Clinton) only got 43% of the vote.

So a third party candidacy is not impossible, though it is unlikely in a corporate media dominated election environment that didn't exist in 1992.

[Chemisse]

27. The only way a 3rd party would be desirable

is if we had runoff elections. Otherwise, we just split the majority vote and the losers win. That's what Nadar did to Gore.

[jclincali]

4. Sounds alot like the Hillary is inevitable meme

[cali]

6. uh, no, it does not. I'm not saying Obama is inevitable. I'm saying

either he or the repuke nominee will be the next president. Care to tell me when the last time a third party candidate was elected president? The political/power structure is such that third party candidates aren't viable. And yeah, anything can happen, but that's like saying an asteroid could strike the earth and obliterate human life. Short of the extraordinary and highly unlikely, a repub or Obama will be president in '13.

[SidneyCarton]

48. No, unless the Republican Party implodes between now and 2012

(a tantalyzing possibility I admit) the odds favor heavily either a D or an R for the White House, unless a formidable 3rd party rises between now and then, which is possible, but unlikely.

[Skidmore]

10. Thank you, cali!

I wanted to post some thing along these lines yesterday, but couldn't find reasonably polite words to use. I'm really frustrated that so many people are expending so much energy tearing at this administration rather than taking the fight to where the laws are made--Congress. In the meanwhile, Congress is playing games as usual. President Obama cannot sign or veto legislation that has not made it to his desk.

[indigo32]

42. I think it's sad people start doing the kind of thing this thread is doing

this early. But I will give you two thumbs up for encouraging taking the fight to Congress, two big thumbs up. They need a serious kick in the ass.

Meanwhile, I am leaving my options open regarding Obama, and no amount of bullying (not accusing you, you didn't post the OP), is going to change that.

[BlooInBloo]

11. I for one hope for another primary...

So I make make soup with DUers' tears when Obama wins again.

[armyowalgreens]

12. Wait does this mean I can still be depressed about voting for the "least shitty" candidate?

I'll be 21 by the next election. I think election night will be accompanied by many shots of vodka.

[TomClash]

13. A bit early for this isn't it?

He's not quite six months into his term. Let's see how reality goes before we think about escaping or embracing it.

[cali]

14. you're right, of course, but seeing all the dump Obama threads

was an impetus for posting this reality based PSA.

[bdamomma]

26. he's been in office for 6 months and trying to clean up a mess

not created by him, more than 8 years to clean up.

[mmonk]

33. It's never too early. Honest critical assessments of policy often bring out

this tired straw dog.

[tkmorris]

15. Pointless douchebaggery flamebait

I don't bitch at this president because I want a Republican to win in 2012, nor do I have any intent of voting for a third party candidate with no shot. I bitch at this president because I want HIM to be BETTER. Defending him when he's wrong only encourages him to keep doing it.

[cali]

16. ridiculous charge. there's nothing flamebaity about the OP.

your post, however, is the soul of asshole stinkery flamebait. And of course, no where do I suggest that one shouldn't criticize Obama. duh. The dimness of some here, never ceases. It's pathetic. Do take your shit flamebait to another thread.

[Fumesucker]

18. Pontius Pilate had the right idea..

Just wash your hands.

Que sera sera..

[MadHound]

19. Ah yes, the good ol' lesser of two evils argument

The trouble is, even the lesser evil is still evil.

I've reached a point in my life where I refuse to support evil, or any member of the two party/same corporate master system of government. That pretty much leaves Kucinich or the Greens.

Of course that's still three years away, but it's nice to see that the "shut up and fall in line" brigade is still in operation.

So go ahead and excoriate me, fill your post with pithy insults. It's not like what you can say will make a hell of a lot of difference to me or my actions.

[cali]

20. well, this actually has nothing to do with that argument.

I'm just laying out the obvious. As for evil, nope, I don't see Obama as an evil, either greater or lesser. Nor am I telling anyone to shut up and fall into line. I honestly believe that people should do as they wish when it comes to voting, and I'm not interested in bullying people into voting for someone they view as evil. Personally, evil is a word that I find less than useful and avoid using. It's too fraught with religious baggage for me.

And sorry to disappoint you but I don't care to attack you as contemptuously as you just did me.

I'll actually miss you on DU if you choose to vocalize a third party candidate after Obama is nominated in 2012.

Oh, and no I don't uncritically support Obama. There are many areas where I disagree strongly with him.

[MadHound]

23. The thing is, if we got serious about bringing about real change in this country,

We would leave both the Republican and Democratic party far behind.

And while you may not consider either party evil, I find the notion that both parties have the blood of innocents, shed in illegal, immoral wars, to be quite evil. If you like it better, I can word it as the two party/same corporate master system of government:shrug:

You may be willing to continue to play this game of three card monte that passes for politics in our country these days, but I'm not. Perhaps someday you'll wake up and see just how badly we've been played.

But don't worry, I'll be around in 2012 and after, unless I choose to leave.

[cali]

24. I support working locally.

I pretty much concentrate on VT politics. It's much less overwhelming, and we have a third party here that has some legitimacy.

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't hold utopian views. I don't believe that at this time, there is a viable alternative to voting dem for president. And my problem with the evil/good mentality is that it's simplistic and really doesn't say anything meaningful.

[MadHound]

30. The best thing we could do is to institute publicly funded elections,

Take corporate money and corporate influence out of our government. That's what I'm working towards, because unless we remove corporate money, nothing else of real significance can be achieved.

Sadly however, though there are twenty three states that we could pass publicly funded elections via the initiative petition, that leaves twenty eight where we have to get it through the state legislature, and you know that's not happening. Furthermore, bringing this up in Congress, as a bill or a Constitutional amendment isn't going to happen either, far too many corporately corrupted Congress members to allow that to fly. About the only other option left is a Constitutional Convention, but that's unlikely as well.

Until we make that change, we're simply going to continue to decline, either until the point that people have had enough and revolt, or until the strains on our country force it to implode. Frankly I was predicting either a major revolt, a civil war, or a slide into fascism twenty years ago, stating that it would take place within the ensuing fifty years. Sadly, it looks like we're right on schedule for the last option.

[HillbillyBob]

21. Maybe it it time for us to

do our damnedest to get a 3rd party. God knows that the two that have a stranglehold on our government sure as hell don't serve us they serve the corporate masters.

I voted for Obama as lesser of evils.
I realize that McCain /Palin would have been worse..she would have taken him hunting......then we would have a religious nut in there, so we have someone who has sold out already. Starting by hiring Emanuel, Geithner and all those other retreads from previous maladministrations. I did vote for Clinton once, but not the second time.

Then sell out us queer folks who also chipped in a lot of dough, many of us really could not afford to.
We are not as well off as most straight folk think we are, now we are even worse off than we were financially. My partner holds down a full time job and a sometime part time job and I'm too sick to work. Since we cannot legally marry in this state or even go to another state.
If something happens to him, me and our 'kids', 4 rescue dogs will be homeless. I am a long term hiv patient. DOMA (that defense in court really P Me off!)and DADT have had a direct effect on our lives. I was outed and lost my career in air traffic control.

Now before anyone starts on how selfish I am, I have a whole raft of other concerns about how this country has been screwed.
These just have the most direct effect on my life.

Banksters, mismanagment of corporations for selfish gain, I could go on and on and on.

I am disappointed, but not too surprised and pretty disgusted.

It is perhaps time to seriously organize into an opposition party, and get past this we can't do it meme.
After all our ancestors threw out a corrupt government, and our constitution does allow for restructure of the government from time to time when it no longer serves..I think that applies now.

[cali]

22. You want a third party? There's really only one viable way

build it up on the local level. The existing structure on the national level, virtually precludes starting there. And the dem party in VT, NH and ME, didn't sell out the GLBT community. To the contrary, they fought like hell for it over the past few months.

[WeDidIt]

40. Historically, by itself, that never works.

Hitorically, the only way a third party ever emerged to become one of the two power parties was for one of the two party powers to fold.

It happened first with the Federalists, leaving the Democrati-Republican party to take complete control of the government. That party devolved into a Jackson faction and an Adams faction. The Adams faction went on to become the Whigs.

It next happened with the Whigs melting down, opening the door for the Republicans to fill the void.

It hasn't happened since.

[discocrisco01]

25. Ralph Nader

In some ways, I wished I voted for Nader. However, this is no way that this guy could get elected. So I vote for Obama and keep my fingers crossed

[ThomWV]

28. The same thing could have been said of Lyndon Johnson - but look what happened.

[cali]

29. LBJ chose not to run.

That's always possible with Obama, but it falls into the highly unlikely catagory.

[JackRiddler]

45. LBJ only made that choice after McCarthy's bid established a high level of opposition to him...

and with millions of people protesting on the streets, correctly accusing him of war crimes and mass murder.

[Kermitt Gribble]

31. You feel like arguing over 3rd party voting today, huh?

So you're saying, after 6 months on the job, your vote is already locked in for Obama? Doesn't matter how he performs over the next 3 years? I'm not advocating voting for a republican by any means, but you can be sure, if I feel Obama isn't working for the good of the country I will seek a candidate that will - even if that means voting 3rd party. Until we stop voting for the lesser of 2 evils, the status quo wins.

[cali]

34. Historically speaking, it's rare for a president not to get his party's nomination

if he seeks it, and it's rare for him not to seek it. That's simply factual. you want to dispute those facts, feel free to do so, but it's not really possible to dispute facts.

And again, I don't traffic in simplistic evil/good dichotomies.

[Kermitt Gribble]

41. I'm not disputing that fact.

I didn't say anything about whether Obama will get the Democratic nomination. The point is, if he is doing a poor job, he shouldn't get the nomination if the system worked the way it is supposed to work. Promoting the inevitability of getting only a Dem or a repub, as your op does, inhibits democracy as it is supposed to function and plays in to the divide and conquer strategy the status quo has been using to retain power.

Your op is a veiled threat that if you don't vote for Obama, you'll get a republican president. Yet, you state "I don't traffic in simplistic evil/good dichotomies"? Gotcha.

[Bill McBlueState]

32. wow, a lecture about the futility of third parties

This hardly ever happens on DU.

[cali]

35. simply the facts. and rah rahs for vanity candidates never happen either.

[SidDithers]

36. Are you suggesting that Cynthia McKinney isn't a viable 3rd party candidate?...

:evilgrin:

Sid

[cali]

37. Undoubtedly, she'll have her DU supporters when she runs in 2012.

[JackRiddler]

39. So you're anticipating such a dismal failure that the moral bullying has to start now?

It's not 2012.

[G_j]

43. so don't even Think about it!

don't entertain the tiniest thought about it, or you'll enable the Republicans!

[JackRiddler]

44. Yes! The supposedly inevitable requires enforcement three years beforehand!

If you don't accept the inalterable facts of life about your alternatives in personalities now, and focus on them to the exclusion of actual politics, you're causing Huckabee-Bush to win in 2012!

We must remain vigilant on the lookout for potential thought-crimes 1196 days in advance!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

47. “Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone,.........

“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." John Quincy Adams

"In matters of conscience, the law of majority has no place." Mohandas K. Gandhi

[InvisibleTouch]

49. I will be delighted to vote for Obama again. n/t

[That Is Quite Enough]

50. Indeed! I'll gladly take Obama again.

[gkhouston]

51. Or an asteroid will drop from the sky. If that happens, please let it be soon, so

I can be spared the next 10,000 posts about who I "must" vote for in 2012 and who definitely will or won't be on the ticket.

[Optical.Catalyst]

52. The fact is: You get to choose either the Democratic candidate, or the loser candidate

The Republicans are in a death spiral. They will be replaced by a new right-of-center party after their stunning defeat in 2012.

Now is the time to push through our legislation by crushing the Republican opposition. After the new party forms in 2013, some of our more centrist, blue dog Democrats will probably jump ship and go with the new party.