So my friend saved a man's life, but probably cost him his freedom

[Liberty Belle]

My friend was driving in the desert east of San Diego. The temperature was probably in the high 90s. He saw a Latino man staggering along the road, wearing three layers of clothing.

Knowing this to be an area frequented by illegal border crossers, my friend (a good-hearted soul and strong progressive activist) hesitated.

If he offered the man a ride, he could put himself at risk if stopped, and even be accused of being a coyote (smuggler of undocumented immigrants). Yet his conscience wouldn't allow him to do nothing.

He stopped and offered the man some water (possibly also illegal, but not likely to be caught since no Border Patrol was visible). The man's eyes were glazed over and he was incoherent. (Yes, my friend speaks fluent Spanish). He looked on the verge of collapse. So my friend called 9-1-1, knowing that in doing so the man would likely face deportation. But if he did nothing, he would probably die, as more than 600 have crossing this harsh terrain since the border wall has forced them further and further east, requiring a 3-day trek over boulder-strewn mountains and desert with no shade or water.

Thankfully a group of medics from an Indian reservation were first to arrive. Whether they turned the man over to immigration authorities we will never know. Officially, I hear, the tribes say that they cooperate with authorities. But their lands are sovereign nations, so if they take someone for treatment at an Indian clinic, who knows where they go next?

Our immigration system truly is broken. Nobody should have to choose between helping someone in need or risking having them die to reach freedom. For poor people in Mexico, there is no legal way to immigrate to America. You can't get a visa or work permit if you don't own property in Mexico. So people risk their lives, often told by coyotes that it's just a short walk to freedom in America, never warning them of the extent of that journey or dangers that include rattlesnakes, scorpions, steep terrain where falls can kill a man, woman, or child, the ever-present vigilantes patrolling our borders, and the most deadly enemy: heat.

What is wrong with America?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. I weep for what is wrong in America...

And this is one of those things...

K&R

Where is our humanity?

[Liberty Belle]

5. Yes, last week ironically I posted about saving a life in a similar situation;

in my case it was an old man in his bathrobe walking head-on toward traffic on a freeway onramp. Two cars ahead of me drove around him and kept going. He had a cane, was red-faced and clutching his chest. We stopped and it was clear he had Alzheimer's or some similar condition. I shudder to think how he'd have wound up if we didn't stop, since not only was he clearly on the verge of collapse, he also had a wad of hundred dollar bills and asked if we'd drive him to a casino! He could've been robbed, if not struck by a car first.

[lumberjack_jeff]

2. "Cost him his freedom"

Freedom to do what, exactly? If he is deported, he remains free to engage in any lawful activity his country allows, just like you and I.

I don't think my freedom includes the right to violate the laws of whichever country I choose to surreptitiously enter.

Your friend did the right thing.

I also find it a little ironic that many consider it racist to assume that a non english speaker at a jobsite is an illegal alien, while in another setting it's a reasonable enough assumption to think twice before calling 911.

The difference is one person wants laws enforced, while another worries that they might be.

[Liberty Belle]

14. Free to watch his children starve, perhaps?

This is often the harsh reality for those desperate enough to try this dangerous crossing.

The honest poor in Mexico have little alternative, especially with the horrific state of the Mexican economy and now drought, than to attempt to reach the U.S. Dishonest ones resort to drug trafficking - which has grown so brazen that the drug dealers openly advertise on radio, signs, in newspapers, etc. for people who will do anything for a few bucks. The drug trade is not only dishonorable, of course, it is also very dangerous. There have been hundreds of murders recently among rival drug gangs in Mexico - including beheadings, people with their tongues cut out, etc.

I am constantly astonished at how little most Americans know of how bad conditions are for ordinary people south of the border.

what would you propose for poor people in Mexico to do?

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. Why, break laws, of course.

It's the only logical choice. :eyes:

Why do you assume that the person in question was one of the honest poor?

Call 911 and let the officials sort it out. If he's breaking laws, that's his problem.

[Zavulon]

25. +1.

I'm tired of hearing how "inhumane" it is to enforce our laws. I wish ICE was more effective and less humane, I wish there were draconian penalties for being here illegally or hiring illegals, and I wish there was not only no incentive to be here illegally, but every reason not to be.

[abumbyanyothername]

45. This from the Obama Administration today

DHS NO-MATCH SCRATCHED BY OBAMA ADMINISTRATION

Today, Department of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano announced the Department will be proposing a new regulation rescinding the Social Security Administration No-Match Rule – a regulation issued by the Bush Administration in August, 2007 and enjoined by a U.S. District Court since it was introduced. The Rule was intended to address an employer's obligations in response to receipt of a social security number mismatch notice from the Social Security Administration (SSA). The Rule stated that receipt of a SSA no-match letter could be used as evidence that the employer has constructive knowledge that an employee lacks work authorization. The No-Match Rule also made clear that an employer who did not follow the guidelines would be susceptible to an I-9 violation and possible fines in the event of a workplace audit or raid.

“This rule would have been devastating to the California and Arizona fresh fruit, vegetable and tree-nut industries and would have caused massive layoffs of employment-authorized workers and U.S. citizens, while dragging the economy deeper into recession,” said Tom Nassif, president and CEO of Western Growers, “I want to thank Secretary Napolitano for showing great leadership and quickly rescinding such a bad policy. The No-Match Rule wrongly presumed that if a worker has been named in a ‘no-match’ letter, then the worker is ineligible to work in the U.S. The reality is that the SSA database is not, and was never intended to be, an immigration database and does not contain real-time data on individuals’ immigration status or work authorization. We need an effective guest worker program and true immigration reform, such as the AgJOBS legislation, and we urge Congress to move this bill to the President’s desk this year.”

In March, Nassif wrote to Secretary Napolitano, with whom Western Growers has had a productive, professional relationship since her years as the Governor of Arizona, asking for the suspension of the DHS No-Match Rule and encouraging the Department to formulate a coherent policy relating to work site enforcement. A Western Growers core belief is that the U.S. economy needs additional workers to do many of the jobs that U.S. workers will not do, especially in agriculture. Immigration reform such as the bi-partisan bill AgJOBS which was reintroduced in May by Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-Ca) is critical to agriculture, especially the producers of specialty crops which rely heavily on a foreign workforce to plant, harvest and process fresh fruits and vegetables. The H-2A agricultural guest worker program is beset by bureaucratic red tape and instability and economic requirements that many farmers cannot afford. Western Growers supports AgJOBS as the most effective vehicle for retaining the existing experienced agricultural workforce, not eligible for H-2A visas, and for providing adequate and lasting reform of the H-2A program.

[lumberjack_jeff]

57. Implementation of the law is suspended because it's inconvenient to lettuce growers.

I'm sure it's all chess or strategy or some other shit.

The article indicates that the duplicate SSN letters that are sent to employers serve no purpose. Employers are free to ignore them without risk. :grr:

[Flaneur]

49. That's a very ugly response.

Yeah, right, it's that Mexican peasant seeking to feed his family that is the cause of your problems. Not our corrupt political institutions and the corporations whose money shapes them. Not capitalism. Not globalization. That Mexican peasant is the problem.

This kind of vicious, punitive attitude infects too much of America.

[Zavulon]

82. And therefore,

we should turn our backs on illegal "immigration" because other people are at fault, too.

What I find "a very ugly response" is the sort of post you just put up, along with similar posts from other apologists for illegals. Blame America and capitalism first. Groan.

[obliviously]

18. we already have

an actual unemployment rate estimated at 20%

[1]

19. from your description, it sounds like this problem is uniquely mexican...

[Liberty Belle]

22. There are a lot of immigrants who've traveled for days from South & Central America

just to reach our border, but conditions are generally worse in Mexico than most other places. Mexico is on the verge of revolution or civil war, many believe.

I'm not certain, but I've heard the requirements for entry are also higher for Mexicans than even most other Latin American countries; if that's wrong I hope someone will please post the correct info.

[paulsby]

78. mexico vigilantly protects its OWN southern border

they don't let central americans into THEIR COUNTRY!!!

what's wrong with mexico?

in mexico, it's also illegal for aliens (criminal OR legal) to participate in political editorializing, advocacy, marches, etc.

i have NOTHING against poor honest mexicans trying to find a better life by breaking our laws to sneak into our countries.

i also recognize that our first responsibility is to our own legal citizens and we have to enforce our border and maintain our sovereignty.

that's the reality when you have a rich successful nation abutting a poor country.

[lindisfarne]

21. Actually, it costs quite a bit to hire a coyote.The poorest of Mexico aren't hiring them.Your friend

is a saint.

[Liberty Belle]

27. True. The poorest must risk climbing the wall or going around it

and there are many serious injuries from falls over that wall.

It costs $2,000 to $3,000 or more to hire a coyote. Many save for years, believing that to be a safer way.

Sometimes it is. Other times an unscrupulous coyote will abandon people stuffed into the backs or trucks, or kill them in high-speed chases from the Border Patrol, or turn them loose once over the border in the desert with no water. The dead here include a lot of children. there are women who cross wearing high-heels and evening wear, after the coyotes tell them it's an easy walk to town where they hope to be reunited with husbands they have not seen in sometimes many years, becausing crossing back and forth is no longer safe or easy. I've seen the evidence of what happens to them (I am a reporter) - first they kick off the shoes, then tear off the their clothes before going insane and dying from the heat. It is a terrible way to die.

[mema42]

42. poor people in Mexico

The unemployment numbers look better in Mexico then in the US.
They apparently have a lower debt to GDP ratio, a higher savings ratio, and their government sponsered health care has been touted as one way for us to go.

There are poor in this country that are here legally. If Mexico has problems it sounds like they are capable, perhaps more capable then us, of helping their people. Perhaps those Mexico poor could push their government for the changes they need rather then coming here illegally.

[SammyWinstonJack]

60. +1

:thumbsup:

[EndersDame]

80. I challenge you to go to Matamoros or Progressoor Juarez and still make that claim

I am not saying illegal immigration is right just sayin I can understand why one would take the risk

[Ignis]

70. It's not that they don't know; they just don't care.

Thanks for trying to spell it out for them, but they'll just shrug at the loss of human life...especially when those humans happen to have brown skin.

[guruoo]

76. They should fight to save their own country, like we are doing here

[guruoo]

77. He'll be free to go home and volunteer to help fix his OWN country.

[1]

3. "What is wrong with America?" ???

i don't understand your question.

your friend did the right thing in requesting aid for this man. beyond that, the laws of any land decide the fate of those seeking entry to any country.

why do you think this is an american problem?

[omega minimo]

7. Why do you think it isn't?

:think:

[Liberty Belle]

8. We should have work permits for people to enter legally,

and return to their families when they are done. They come here for jobs and usually laws aren't enforced against big employers in agriculture or the hotel industry.

Most of these people are impoverished and desperate to feed their families. Before the wall they would cross for seasonal work, then go home. Now some stay for years, never seeing families again. I don't see other countries building walls to keep people out (with the exception of East Germany, and the Berlin Wall eventually came tumbling down). Instead they have sane and humane immigration policies.

Also the US immigration policies discriminate against Latinos. We don't demand that you own property and be wealthy if you want to immigrate from most other places on earth. How many of our ancestors could have come here under those requirements? Certainly not mine, poor Jews who barely escaped the Holocaust and Irish potato farmers fleeing famine and impoverishment.

So yes, this is a uniquely American problem and a recent one at that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Actually you are wrong on requirements to immigrate to the US

unless you are a political refugee you need to have resources, or a job lined up.

Where there is discrimination is on the waiting lists, which are longer from Latin America

But if you want to come to this country, you either need to have a job waiting for you, or be independently wealthy.

Do our laws need revision? Yes. But the requirements in order to come in are steep, regardless. I wish people also realized that MOVING from the US to most other countries, face the same financial burdens as most governments do not want to find themselves taking care of people who do not have those resources. There is also the burden of age.

The exceptions are political refugees, and those do not have it easy either, and a few countries have laws of return.

[1]

15. immigration laws exist in the vast majority of countries in the world...

you are being naive to believe that this is somehow "uniquely american".

your passion is clouding your thinking. pick a favorite country of yours and try to walk just across their border. i think it will educate you about what is unique and what is universal.

[imdjh]

28. Why? And how many? 30 million? 300 million?

It's nice to have compassion, and the story is compelling, but you are making an argument for an open border. We already have enough illegal aliens in this country to equal the size of New York City, by some estimates three times that many. That is a lot of water, sewage, garbage, gasoline, electricity, pollution, healthcare, social services, etc... And if the argument for allowing these people to stay, and welcoming more is compassion, then why would we have less compassion for the 30 million East Indians, 30 million Chinese, 10 million Bengalis, 50 million assorted Africans?

You don't see other countries enforcing their borders? Look no farther than Mexico's southern border.



Here at Mexico's own southern edge, Guatemalans cross legally and illegally to do jobs that Mexicans departing for the north no longer want. And hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants from nearly two dozen other countries, including China, Ecuador, Cuba and Somalia, pass through on their way to the United States.
......................
The Mexican authorities report that detentions and deportations have risen in the past four years by an estimated 74 percent, to 240,000, nearly half along the southern border. But they acknowledged there had also been a boom in immigrant smuggling and increased incidents of abuses and attacks by corrupt law enforcement officials, vigilantes and bandits. Meanwhile, the waves of migrants continue to grow.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/18/world/americas/18mexico.html

[obliviously]

31. I agree with you 100% N/T

[Liberty Belle]

36. I'm not an advocate of open borders, just more human and reasonable

policies that at least offer hope.

[obliviously]

37. I can understand your compassion

but as I stated before our actual unemployment is around 20% we have little to offer them!

[imdjh]

39. No, you are not going to get away with that. Take a position.

You can't say, "Well.... no I don't really want the US to have 600 million people and the quality of life here to go to Hell in a handbasket so fast that a stop can't be put to it, ..... B U T,.... it would be really nice if all these illegal aliens that make my life so much more textured and make me feel worldly and as far from Ohio as I can get without leaving the country can stay and bring their other family members because, well , gosh darn it they're just such nice people and you haven't seen hospital corners on a bed like Rosario can do in your life."

Sorry dear, don't mean to attack you personally, but I'm sick of it. I'm sick of people taking a position that has NO practical and workable end result thought out. It's as bad as Libertarians not wanting to pay any taxes but not wanting to give up police protection, fire services, paved roads, food safety, etc....

[1]

40. +1

[kiva]

68. Brilliant!

:applause:

And I say this as someone who has been known to straddle a few fences.

[Liberty Belle]

84. I've outlined my views in detail in a post below.

Good thing nobody thought your ancestors would take America "to hell in a handbasket" or you wouldn't be here today. Immigrants also contribute a lot of good to our society, you know.

[imdjh]

92. You're still evading the logistical issue. What are you going to do with all those people?

Good thing nobody thought your ancestors would take America "to hell in a handbasket" or you wouldn't be here today. Immigrants also contribute a lot of good to our society, you know.

My ancestors moved from one part of the UK to another, ie from Britain to Virginia colony in a time when population was not beyond sustainable levels. Now you can argue the politics of Indian treaties and all that- but it's off topic. The question you are evading is "How many is OK?" and why would we give preference to one nation over another?

If indeed there are 30 million (I think that's an exaggeration.) illegal immigrants in the US, and most of them are from Spanish speaking countries in North America, then why would we give them citizenship preference over 30 million Chinese people who want to immigrate to the US? Wouldn't those Chinese people add to the "good to our society" as well? How about 30 million Indians? And now that we have 90 million naturalized citizens, will we forbid them to import their immediate or extended families? Would it not be cruel to deny them that?

Look, I get the compassionate argument. That's the hard part- you can't let compassion rule on this question because compassion will lead to environmental disaster in this country. We can totally sidestep the social and political considerations- logistically, 30 million or 90 million immigrants soon adds up to 300 million NEW people, doubling the population of the United States. And most seem to want to live within 100 miles of the coast, just like most Americans do. We are talking about a disaster in the making. Coastal areas are already beyond sustainable populations in terms of water and sewer, not to mention traffic.

I won't even ask you the philosophical question of what right you have to open the borders at the expense of your fellow citizens' quality of life.

So the only question to you, is "What are you going to do with all those people?"

[proteus_lives]

51. I'm glad your friend helped him but....

It's not the job of the US to offer hope to citizens of other nations. The government of Mexico should be looking after their people not us.

[vadawg]

4. cant see why you think he would go to jail, he responded correctly in rendering aid

then he called 911, now if he had driven the guy to the nearest city and let him wander off then it would be different.

oops got the early morning bleary eyes on this one.

[Liberty Belle]

11. He's worked side by side with a lot of Mexicans (most illegal) and hates seeing them deported,

knowing it could mean their children go hungry or that the immigrant will die in some future border crossing attempt. He's heard many of their stories first-hand and understands their pain and sorrow. My friend is the sort who would look the other way and not turn someone in, unless their life is in danger.

[ItNerd4life]

66. Your friend works side by side with Illegals? And this is okay?

I have many American friends unemployed that would love to have a job that those Illegals have.

Your friend doesn't sound compassionate to me.

Also, it's not something that is wrong with America. You obviously have no idea how well our immigration authorities treat illegals vs. what other countries do.

[Liberty Belle]

85. That was many years ago, when he had just got out of prison (for refusing to go to Viet Nam)

Needless to say, in that circumstance he took some jobs most Americans wouldn't but learned a deep and abiding respect for the men he met, who risked their lives and worked very hard to care for their families far away from home.

He saw terrible abuses. One of his coworkers was murdered for a few bucks. The cops didn't care about a dead illegal. It was common for them to be robbed. Some employers would even call La Migre (immigraiton officials) themselves on payday so they wouldn't have to pay anybody. Workers were provided no protection or housing; they built shanty towns in canyons. Nowadays the Minutemen tear those down so I don't know where these people go.

[imdjh]

93. I've done that too. In my twenties I gave it little to no thought. nt

[omega minimo]

6. What is wrong with America is Americans don't know how U.S. policies have created the surge Norte

AND don't want people coming here illegally either.

:crazy:

[kath]

44. Good point - our govt props up corrupt Mexican govts whose policies lead to vast poverty.

If they would be pushed to take better care of their people/decrease the prevalence of grinding poverty, then there would not be the huge surge of Mexicans toward the US.

Same in many (most?) of the Central American countries - US govt policies are significantly responsible for the repression and/or impoverishment of the people of those countries.

[omega minimo]

47. Indeed

[Ignis]

71. You nailed it.

Cheap agricultural labor + the War on Some Drugs trumps the loss of human life for those types.

[mudplanet]

9. America doesn't have a problem, but many Americans do

If you find yourself in a quandary over helping a man dying of thirst in the desert because you might be prosecuted by the law, then something definitely is wrong. If I've got to be afraid of the law when doing the right thing, then fuck the law, and those who made it.

[Cleita]

10. The Native Americans no doubt took care of him because most of those

poor immigrants are also Native Americans. What's wrong with the Americans who came here after and still won't admit that the First People were here first? Your friend followed his conscience. Good for him and no matter what happens to him, he will be able to face the world as a good person.

[Coyote_Bandit]

12. Ummmm......

Those who cross borders illegally take certain risks. And restricting folks from crossing borders is not unique to the US.

[kiva]

17. Your friend did the right thing.

I disagree, though, with your assertion that poor people in Mexico are attempting to reach freedom. Despite its political problems, Mexico isn't a dictatorship whose people have to flee to the U.S. for democracy; the lure is money, not freedom.

[Liberty Belle]

20. Are you not aware of the detention camps for immigrants?

Here in San Diego, La Mesa my hometown to be exact, we just had a horrific expose of a "hospital" keeping supposedly mentally ill immigrants chained and shackled to beds, denied all contact with the outside world for weeks or months. Most shocking, this was on direct orders from ICE, our federal immigration authorities, not just some rogue medical facility! The procedures violate state law in CA and any other patient treated this way would be entitled to damages.

So yes, a person in this situation could very well lose his or her freedom.

[obliviously]

23. Do you have a link to this story?

I would like to read the details other than hearsay.

[Liberty Belle]

30. Here, today's paper:

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/jul/08/1m8parkway234923-report-hospital-broke-law-allowin/?eastcounty&zIndex=128412

I am a reporter. I have also been investigating this story and sadly it is worse than reported. The hospital has continued to shackle immigration patients even after stating in a prior story that it stopped taking them, according to a lawyer I just interviewed.

There are also abuses at standard immigrant detention camps, and there have been some deaths as well.

[obliviously]

33. Thank you

what a mess!

[kiva]

26. Yes, I'm aware of the detention camps.

I was referring to your sentence "So people risk their lives, often told by coyotes that it's just a short walk to freedom in America" Again, the inference is that these people aren't free in Mexico.

And, as someone said above, the U.S. is certainly not the only country to try to control its borders.

[obliviously]

29. I am finding no news links for

this story. Usually google news will find it. Link please?

[Liberty Belle]

32. Here is link from today's San Diego Union-Tribune:

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/jul/08/1m8parkway234923-report-hospital-broke-law-allowin/?eastcounty&zIndex=128412

See my post above, it's even worse than reported according to a lawyer I interviewed for another publication.

[obliviously]

35. Thank you!

if the patients are dangerous I could understand it. Normally sedation keeps mental patients under control.

[uniteasone]

63. SUPPOSED?

So you have not actually seen this yourself,the chains and the shackles? You did say supposed in your statement.

[Liberty Belle]

83. I have not seen them. I have interviewed a lawyer who did.

A major newspaper has reported on it however and records have been obtained by various groups further documenting the abuse.

My "supposed" was intended to question whether these people are really mentally ill or not. Who decides, I asked the lawyer? She replied, "Good question" and added that those detainees she had spoken with who were in this facility did not seem deranged to her.

[Fumesucker]

54. In laissez fair capitalist society like ours and Mexico's, money *is* freedom..

If you have no money in such a society your freedom is the freedom to starve or die of exposure or disease.

But for the kindness of my family I would be "free" to be homeless myself, that is how I know this.

[Ignis]

72. How about freedom from starvation?

Or freedom from being gunned down in the streets by the drug cartels that America has indirectly created to rule Mexico?

Or are those not important freedoms? :shrug:

[LisaL]

24. How would it cost him his freedom? You provided no information

that would support that idea.

[Liberty Belle]

34. Yes I did.

See above posts. He could wind up in a detention camp or worse a hospital locally just busted for shackling chained immigrants to hospital beds for weeks at a time.

Besides risking freedom, of course, the immigrant more likely faces the prospect of being deported and many of them have no other way to feed their families right now with the desperate situation in Mexico, which is on the verge of civil war and fraught by drug wars, drought, etc.

[1]

38. so what is your answer to this problem, liberty...

you are not exactly clear on your proposed solution.

[obliviously]

41. I'm with you on this

Liberty your a good person but Mexico needs to start being accountable for their own people. The richest person in the world is from mexico. They have lot's of money in the hands of a few people. Our country needs to pressure mexico to provide for their citizens. We should not be shamed here for what they do to their people.

[Liberty Belle]

48. Immigration is a very complex issue.

I believe that a quota for a certain number of lawful immigration should be allowed and that it should include some less fortunate folks primarily when there are employers willing to sponsor them such as the large ag growers -- and mostly these are jobs that even most unemployed Americans don't want. These workers should be paid at least minimum wage and pay taxes, and would thus be protected also from abuses by unscrupulous employers, while also eliminating the incentive to hire illegals so cheaply - in other words if an American wants the job for minimum wage they can have it and should have priority. Background checks should be done to prohibit entry for anyone with a criminal record, ties to terrorist groups, etc. Workers should be allowed to return home periodically or when seasonal work ends(which would actually reduce the number of folks staying illegally for years or forever). Employers should NOT be allowed to bust unions by hiring temporary immigrant workers. Immigrants who have steady work for a period of years and stay out of trouble should be eventually allowed to bring a spouse or minor children and apply for citizenship.

For those living in the shadows currently who have been here for a long period of time, we should have a path to citizenship but not amnesty - the "path" might include fees paid, a period of community service, background checks, and proof of employment or other support as well as passage of a citizenship test.

In short, make it easier for people regardless of means to get on a reasonable-length waiting list to come to America lawfully if they are willing to work at jobs that might otherwise go unfilled, keep a clean record, and return home once the work ends.

Here in San Diego I see many hypocrites who speak loudly against illegal immigration while hiring illegals to work as maids, gardeners, or even in their own businesses.

As for services, I believe we should provide emergency and life-saving treatment for anyone in this country regardless of status, but if long-term care is needed we should send temporary workers to Mexico or ask payment from their government.

Also the U.S. should change its foreign policy to stop supporting corrupt governments in Mexico and Latin American and provide incentives for Mexico to solve some of its problems and provide more employment opportunities so that less of their people would want to come here.

Of course, people forget that the illegal immigrants DO help support our economy in one sense; while arguably there is a drain on resources for, say education, the undocumented people here do pay sales taxes on goods they buy, and some even pay into Social Security Accounts for others (if they have a fake ID).

[1]

53. you and i are in agreement...

you have great ideas. please keep speaking them.

[imdjh]

59. Point by point

I believe that a quota for a certain number of lawful immigration should be allowed

It already does.


and that it should include some less fortunate folks

It already does.

primarily when there are employers willing to sponsor them such as the large ag growers -- and mostly these are jobs that even most unemployed Americans don't want.

That's not how it works. Those jobs will be done by Americans when the wages rise or when the alternatives are less desirable (ie when you must go to work to support yourself). Half of the problem is that the American workers who would fill these jobs, don't live in the ag areas. There needs to be a worker program that addresses this with transportation and temporary housing like we do for illegals and like what was traditionally done for migrant (not immigrant) workers.

These workers should be paid at least minimum wage and pay taxes,

They already are. The real problem here is a lack of structure for migrant and seasonal labor. Agribusiness is really good at lobbying Congress for what benefits them, but they do nothing to benefit the workers which would ultimately benefit Agribusiness, because they are short sighted. A comprehensive migrant labor program would go a long way to ensure the health, safety, and productivity of the migrant workers, but Ag sees a benefit to the lack of such a program because they believe that it would cost them money upfront and the workers would be in a better position to organize. Migrant labor is by its nature a system of peonage. I hate to use buzzwords of the lost revolution, but it is. Migrant workers need to have their lives managed during the season because they are on the road and disconnected from the ability to manage their own lives. It sounds paternal, but it's not. What I mean is that food, clothing, shelter, washing machines, showers, sleeping accommodations, and transportation need to be provided and managed, as well as security and BANKING. One of the biggest threats to migrant labor is that they are preyed upon by local criminal elements and have no way to save their money, because they are ripped off for nearly everything they need to buy. On the flip side, many migrant workers object to or refuse security procedures designed to protect the labor pool, ie fenced accommodations which prohibit certain activities and which have a curfew. In other words, the migrant worker corps could benefit from getting the basics of a military corps, including access to education. OK, so I'm starting to sound a bit Maoist. :) But if I am Maoist, then so was the Roosevelt Administration.

[Liberty Belle]

86. You're wrong on some points, but raise some valid questions.

If you don't own property you can't emigrate here from Mexico. The poor have no hope. The quotas are only for those with means.

There are many, many workers paid less than minimum wage, under the table, by unscrupulous lawyers who figure if they're hiring illegals, they may as well break labor laws as well. But you are right about the need for protections from criminals and predatory employers. Peonage is an apt descrption, though it can be even worse. Some are robbed and murdered, imprisoned or enslaved in the worse scenarios.

[EFerrari]

52. I have a suggestion. Let's stop helping the Mexican oligarchy steal elections

from the reformers the people elect.

Oh, and fuck NAFTA.

[uniteasone]

62. NAFTA

What a big mistake that was! And even Hillary acknowledged that in her presidential campaigning. No thanks to her hubby Bill.

[uniteasone]

64. Trade

Just found this today and looks like Mexico is also DISLIKING NAFTA trade agreement.......
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6085392

[Ignis]

73. No, no, a big WALL will fix the problem, surely!

:crazy:

Just like our invasion of Iraq fixed that country's problems.

When you're the US MIC, every problem starts looking like a bunker to be busted....

[renate]

43. your friend had no choice

He couldn't have taken a chance on letting the poor man die. Also, I bet that the medics from the reservation didn't turn the guy over.

I'm sorry... it's one thing for him to know in his head that he did what he had to do (and he almost certainly saved the man's life), but his heart is probably still hurting.

[bertman]

46. Your friend is a compassionate person who did the right thing. But we have to get control

of illegal immigration. Because it benefits the corporations who fund our elected officials' quests for office, it's unlikely anything will be done anytime soon. That is very unfortunate.

Today as I drove past a large high-rise project in our town, I noticed once again that 95% of the workers are Hispanic. No doubt at least 75% of them are illegal immigrants. In a state with one of the highest unemployment rates in the country, I find it appalling that our own citizens cannot get work because our government condones the use of cheap labor from south of the border.

Until we punish those business people who hire these immigrants without verifying if they are legal workers, nothing will change. Cheap labor equals more profit for corporations.

[SammyWinstonJack]

61. +1

:thumbsup:

[BlooInBloo]

50. I'm glad your friend found him, and not the Bigotmen.

[Historic NY]

55. Being alive is better than being dead...the desert is littered with bones.

[uniteasone]

56. why not just blame Americans

It is a terrible thing for mankind to be suffering,yes. And that has been happening for a longer time then we have been on this earth and probably continue well after we are gone. But PLEASE! Quit blaming the American people for what these other countries are doing or not doing for their own citizens. The United States has her own problems and her own poor and her own criminals and definitely her own bad economy. It is nice to help people and this country has done more then her fair share of that.

Let Mexico take care of her own. Don't give me these sob stories how it is our fault these people are have a very rough time and choose to break laws and come into this country. By the way Mexico herself deports more people that cross her southern border then the USA does! They are not as humane as the states are either. And they sure as hell do not give all the benefits these illegals get while they are here in the states.

Have any of you tried to get into other countries? They have some tough policies themselves even if you are educated and have some money.

So point your fingers in another direction for once! And the only immigration reform people have in mind is AMNESTY!

FORGET THAT................

[endarkenment]

58. we don't do our fair share

our non-military foreign aid is an embarrassment. But never mind that, and never mind that we wrecked mexico's economy, and never mind that half of the west is mexico that we took from them, carry on.

[Fire1]

75. The U.S. is in the 'taking' business not the giving business.

The only time the U.S. 'gives' is after they destroy.

[truth2power]

65. You are lucky to have such a friend, LibertyBelle..More and more I see

mean-spirited posts here on DU, such as some I've seen in this thread. Words fail!

[Liberty Belle]

88. True, whenever I write on immigration issues it seems to attract the least compassionate

elements of humanity. You'd shudder at the posts I got on our website when I wrote an expose on a Minuteman murderess. i was started to be actually afraid, some of them were so vile.

[hedgehog]

67. We need a North American/Central American Marshall Plan.

As long as jobs are here but not there, not effort to control the border will work. As long as young men can't take care of their families there, it is a threat to our security here. It's time to approach this problem from a different angle. Instead of fishing people out of the river (so to speak), we need to go upstream and keep them from falling in.

[Vidar]

69. K&R

[slackmaster]

74. Your friend did the right thing

I would not have hesitated to call 911.

Whether they turned the man over to immigration authorities we will never know.

That is his problem. He was foolish enough to put himself in the position of being in a hostile environment unprepared for the conditions, and in a foreign country illegally. He got himself into that situation, like the man I rescued from heavy surf off La Jolla many years ago.

He's lucky to be alive.

What is wrong with America?

The problem is what's wrong with Mexico.

[Liberty Belle]

89. You don't see a difference between a fool in deep water purely for fun,

and a desperate man trying to feed his family?

[slackmaster]

90. Of course there are differences, but both individuals made poor choices

Both intentionally, foolishly chose to go into hostile situations without adequate preparations. One without swim fins, the other without drinking water. Both could easily have ended up dead if not for the actions of a good Samaritan.

A provider has a responsibility to keep himself alive and fit. You can't feed your family when you are dead. The Mexican government has for many years been running PSAs in border areas to warn people of the dangers of crossing the desert.

[grantcart]

79. It is not illegal to provide aid to illegal immigrants

There are volunteers who do it and as you drive East on 8 you can see their water tanks deposited next to polls with flags on them.

It also didn't cost the illegal his freedom. He simply would be returned to Mexico for his next attempt. Its not unusual for them to make 6-7 attempts before they get through the border area.


Here is a very intersting article about John Hunter, the brother of Duncan Hunter, who started a volunteer program to leave water in the desert for the illegals.


http://www.ivpressonline.com/articles/2009/07/02/if_you_missed_it/news02.txt


BTW the border patrol agents who go out on hot summer days consider their prime directive to save lives, and tolerate difficult conditions to save as many as possible. They consider the finding of bodies in their area to be a personal failure.

[Liberty Belle]

87. I've ridden with the Border Angels but as far as the water,

It's illegal to give water directly to an immigrant who you reasonably suspect to be illegal. It is, however, perfectly legal to set up water stations in the desert (with property owners' permission) that can be used by anyone who just happens to come along - in theory it could be stranded motorists, hikers, etc. though of course we all know it's almost always border crossers way out there, and some stations are nowhere near any roads.

I've always found it fascinating that one Hunter could show compassion for the immigrants while his brother was the chief architect behind building the border wall and Hunter's son, Duncan Jr now in Congress, takes money from the Minutemen Pac.

I've interviewed BP agents too, and your assessment of them is correct based on my experiences.

[MrSlayer]

81. If they sent him back to Mexico, he'd still be free.

Mexico is a free country, isn't it?

[slackmaster]

91. Pretty much, and simple deportation is probably all that will happen to that man

Unless he has a prior criminal record in the US.