Tonight, a message board literally depressed me. (Not DU.)

[Bicoastal]

Seriously. I was having an OK evening until I followed up on the story about the black kids who were asked to leave a pool in the Philadelphia suburbs because the management were afraid the kids would "change the complexion" of the club.

The story is aggravating enough. But then I took a look at the comments posted immediately below the video. After only 5 minutes scanning, I found I had lost of faith in America's racial progress. I'm sure some here would say these negative comments are just internet trolls looking to provoke a reaction from bleeding-heart liberals such as myself; if this is true, there sure are a lot of said trolls out there today. And sad to say, they come in all colors.

Here's the link, but don't say I didn't warn you: http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Swim_Club_Turns_Kids_Away_Fearing__Change_of_Complexion__Philadelphia.html#comments

[depakid]

1. Newspaper comment sections in America are foul

a reflection of the nature of the people- or at least what they think in private.

[proteus_lives]

15. They are like that all over the world.

What, racism doesn't exist down under?

[imdjh]

26. Didn't you know that Australia is light years ahead of the US in hip? nt

[imdjh]

25. You Tube is worse.

Anything controversial or emotional descends into a barrage of semi-literates calling everyone everything imaginable. I wonder though if it isn't therapeutic. We've operated on the idea that these thoughts need to be contained and corrected to undo the underlying feelings. Perhaps releasing them has an effect we haven't considered or measured. Perhaps the response shouldn't be "You're a pig." it should be, "Do you feel better now, having said that?" Probably not; it would be hard to do that without sounding/being condescending.

[Mrs. Overall]

29. Yes. I am continuously shocked by the horrible hatred posted on the Seattle news websites--

I'm always surprised because I think of our area as tolerant and progressive.

[imdjh]

35. Years ago I was wrecked when someone I admired said he didn't believe in love.

I was talking to one of his friends, and someone else I looked up to, and I mentioned that Fred had wrecked me when he said in essence that love was merely a veneer we construct to match our lust with those we want something from. Underlying that was that friends are just people who want something from you, who see you as a benefit. His protegé blandly responded, "It's troublesome when you first discover that your heroes are human. I guess he doesn't have what you want."

Regions are not tolerant or intolerant, people are. Now I'm not saying that your perception is wrong to have, it's good to build a community of tolerant people within a region, but for the region to be tolerant then it would have to be entirely self-selected, which would mean that it would have in essence no historical population, no continuity, no heritage. It would be a place that people go to rather than a place people are from. Seattle, I would imagine, has some of both.

Also, there is no guarantee that any of those people commenting are local.

[Mrs. Overall]

38. Either you wield an extremely even-handed axe and consider all facets or you are the most charming,

verbose troll since Zandor.

I'm still deciding...

[stanwyck]

34. Agree. Here in Atlanta, the daily newspaper has the Vent

which is a column where you can submit a short comment. It's usually balanced as far as what gets printed. However, if you go online and see which submitted Vents (many not printed, but available online) have been recommended for the top list, they're all rabidly rightwing. It's odd. The submitted Vents are all over the place, politically. But "someone" takes the time to vote repeatedly (astroturf) the rightwing submits into higher prominence. Not unlike the bulk buys of rightwing books which skew the bestseller lists. They're not individual purchases, they're bought in bulk by rightwing organizations to distribute. Thus, the appearance that thousands of Americans are buying (and actually reading) the latest O'Reilly. In reality, the number of Americans actually buying (and even fewer, reading) these books is much lower.

[ChazII]

2. Sad, but not surprising.

I am not going to view the video. I do know several people who have been asked to leave the pool because of their physical appearance. My friends have neurofibromatosis type 1. It is unbelievable that people still are afraid of others be it skin color or lumps and bumps on the skin.

[givemebackmycountry]

4. Thanks ChazII - you and me are tight from here on in...

I would be one of those friends with NF1 and I have to deal with this shit every day.

However...

I'm also 6'4" and about 245 and can be a very imposing figure when I want to be.

:toast: :hi: :fistbump: :hi: :toast:

[ChazII]

22. Wow!

My former husband is 6'5" so I bet you can be imposing. Being tall gives you an advantage. I am lucky in that my lumps are very tiny and can be easily covered. However my son, has a plexi tumor and kyphosis so he is very easy to spot. When he was a child (he is now 24) we were often told we should NOT be taking him to restaurants as his face made the patrons lose their appetitie. Luckily the managers and wait staff told the patrons off and stood up for my son. There are good folks out there but the ignorant ones remarks sure do sting.

Glad to find another NFer here. Do you participate in the NF discussion boards at CTF.org or at Team Inspire?

[demmiblue]

3. I didn't click on the link...

but I know what you are saying.

I remember reading comments on one of the big paper websites in my area... it was truly astounding. The hate towards Muslims was beyond what I ever expected. Actually, it was beyond vile. It is really hard to come to the realization that people hold that kind of hatred in their hearts.

[Liberal_in_LA]

5. white guy killed 10. crickets chirp. Following week black guy kills 4 cops

in Oakland. Newspaper chat is full of folks calling the black guy 'thug' and trashing the 'black culture'. Third week - white guy killed a bunch of people. crickets chirp in the newspaper chats. Folks are starting to fight back and point out the hypocrisy.

[imdjh]

7. What channel are you watching?

Which one of those white guys you don't mention the particulars of was hailed as a hero for "standing up for his right to resist"? And BTW, Lovelle Mixon was a thug, he was a violent criminal, a rapist, and an all round piece of shit. And yes, the people that praised him deserved nearly everything said about them.

[Liberal_in_LA]

8. I object to the racism brought in the conversation I hear in these chat rooms.

Black guy kills, they demand that all blacks apologize. white guy kills, he's just a bad individual. You get the point. That's what goes on in these chatrooms. 'thug' has become the euphamism for the 'n' word.

[imdjh]

9. I don't know which "chat rooms" you mean.

I have not seen any demand for black people to apologize for a black murderer, but I'm not saying that you haven't. What I have seen is people fed up with some of the response to various situations. To listen to the Oscar Grant rioters, these people seem to sincerely believe a lie, a false impression either acquired on their own or fed to them by political activists, ie that "this needs to stop" as if "this" happens every day, as if a white person or a white cop shooting a black man isn't the exception to a situation that is overwhelmingly likely to happen in the reverse. A white guy gets killed by a cop, and you don't see an urban meltdown, a white guy gets killed by a black guy and you don't see an urban meltdown. This is not because we don't value the lives of white people, it's because we don't view black on white crime as an organized criminal and political attack, even if it is ubiquitous.

[Number23]

12. "as if a white person or a white cop shooting a black man

isn't the exception to a situation that is overwhelmingly likely to happen in the reverse."

Wow. Your whole post is... something. Considering that both groups are quite capable of killing members of their own group, and most choose to do just that, I am blown away by your announcement that blacks shooters are "overwhelmingly likely" to kill a white person rather than someone of their own race.

I'd love to see your statistics. Particularly on the numbers of black police officers shooting unarmed white men.

[imdjh]

13. Don't twist what people say, it's rude.

I am blown away by your announcement that blacks shooters are "overwhelmingly likely" to kill a white person rather than someone of their own race.

I reposted my post below for reference.
I didn't say that black shooters are overwhelmingly likely to kill a white person rather than someone of their own race. "Overwhelmingly likely" referred to the likelihood that a black man would shoot a cop rather than the reverse. Black shooters are more likely to kill someone of their own race. They are also disproportionately likely to kill white people, and the reverse is disproportionately rare.

Particularly on the numbers of black police officers shooting unarmed white men.

I never made a claim about black police officers shooting unarmed white men. My claim was that police officers shooting unarmed black men is not something that happens with such frequency that "this has got to stop" would be an appropriate characterization of the frequency of the problem. I left out that "this has got to stop" was often followed by , "this happens all the time" in the days following the Oscar Grant incident. It doesn't happen all the time.

Here's some stuff on murdered cops you probably didn't hear about:


http://cbs11tv.com/local/dallas.officer.shot.2.901756.html

http://www.odmp.org/search.php?searching=1&yearfrom=2009&yearto=2009&cause=19


I have not seen any demand for black people to apologize for a black murderer, but I'm not saying that you haven't. What I have seen is people fed up with some of the response to various situations. To listen to the Oscar Grant rioters, these people seem to sincerely believe a lie, a false impression either acquired on their own or fed to them by political activists, ie that "this needs to stop" as if "this" happens every day, as if a white person or a white cop shooting a black man isn't the exception to a situation that is overwhelmingly likely to happen in the reverse. A white guy gets killed by a cop, and you don't see an urban meltdown, a white guy gets killed by a black guy and you don't see an urban meltdown. This is not because we don't value the lives of white people, it's because we don't view black on white crime as an organized criminal and political attack, even if it is ubiquitous.

[Number23]

16. I didn't at all twist what you said.

But I can understand your desire to backtrack from what you said previously. Especially after typing up gems like this:

Overwhelmingly likely" referred to the likelihood that a black man would shoot a cop rather than the reverse.

You seem to be under the impression that black peopled killed or seriously injured by police officers are isolated incidents. You even state:

My claim was that police officers shooting unarmed black men is not something that happens with such frequency that "this has got to stop" would be an appropriate characterization of the frequency of the problem.

I am sure that the families of Amadou Diallo, Abner Louima, Sean Bell, Oscar Grant, Rodney King, Adolph Grimes, Bernard Monroe, Omar Edwards etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. including 92-year old Kathryn Johnston and scores of other black men and women killed, terrorized or brutalized by police officers would be shocked to know that this is not a common enough occurrence for them to "get too upset about." If you choose to believe that communities of color are not especially vulnerable to police mistreatment, that is your prerogative. But please recognize your belief flies in the face of well-analyzed and well-documented practices.

Here's a bit of reading for you on this subject. Stories not just from LA; from all over the country. And these are just a minuscule number of the ones actually reported in the news. I'm sure that the number is actually far higher than we could imagine.

http://www.colorlines.com/article.php?ID=254
http://www.phillyimc.org/en/protest-says-police-killed-dozens-unarmed-black-men
http://blog.amnestyusa.org/us/another-year-another-unarmed-black-man-killed-by-police/
http://www.workers.org/2007/us/chicago-cops-0823/
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1377151/adolph_grimes_shot_14_times_by_undercover.html?cat=8
http://www.colorlines.com/article.php?ID=485
http://www.bvblackspin.com/2009/05/30/mistaken-identity-black-off-duty-cop-shot-dead-by-white-officer/
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-24466
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/20090330_Accused_by_police__he_credits_police_tape.html?viewAll=y

[Lilyeye]

40. Please tell me you're kidding

"My claim was that police officers shooting unarmed black men is not something that happens with such frequency that "this has got to stop" would be an appropriate characterization of the frequency of the problem."

Uh YES this has been a been a problem. Please read Number23 wonderful post.

[CBGLuthier]

19. simple summation

You are a fucking idiot.

[imdjh]

6. Meh, it's just people talking shit. But something doesn't make sense.

One of the posters said this was a set-up. I think that's plausible because it doesn't make sense. If this pool club is as racist as it's accused of being, then why would they have agreed to have this group, in size and composition, use their facility?

[Solomon]

20. Classic racism denier. The only racism is black against white, right.

Classique!

[imdjh]

32. That's nice, but can you answer the question? Why did they agree to this group using their pool?

[redqueen]

24. Wow.

Sure learned a lot about you today.

[imdjh]

33. That's nice, but can you answer the question? Why did they agree to this group using their pool?

Is this club all white? I would find that surprising, but I suppose it's possible.

[Mrs. Overall]

27. Interesting post, as always...

[anonymous171]

37. Perhaps they were unaware of the group's racial makeup beforehand?

[imdjh]

41. I don't know. It would be nice if the threat of lawsuits didn't make people mute.

I'm trying to imagine the pool agreeing to a group that size. My swim club is a pretty big pool and 60 kids with five adults would be an imposition. The other place the group in question uses, the JCC, is apparently dedicated to their sole use that say, as is the pool at the college which has offered to step in.

My swim club also wouldn't allow so many kids without at least 12 adults. I can't remember what the exact rule is, but I think adults are limited to five kids under their supervision.

I should say though, that my swim club is a pain in the ass and I haven't joined it for that reason as well as not being able to afford it at the moment. I use my parents membership and only go when they go. Our club forbids you to bring your own food and all they sell is crap. As always, it's overseen by one dedicated royal jackass and to challenge him is to have to go before the membership committee which is probably going to support him. The alternative is to get involved and help run the place, and that just sucks all the fun out of it.

[musical_soul]

10. The people on the boards.....

are not worth getting depressed over. We just have a lot of butts in the world.

[imdjh]

11. They are anonymous. And tomorrow in the real world they will be nice to each other. nt

[Mrs. Overall]

28. But don't you think the anonymity allows people to post what they really think?

Out in the world and at work we're all "nice" to each other, but that doesn't make it sincere.

On Edit: As I reread your posts, I am left wondering why you are being an apologist for this sort of behavior. Why so dismissive?

[imdjh]

31. Some of them.

Some of them are sitting at home seething, and pouring out on the internet what is burned into their daily emotions. Others are just mouthing off to each other. "White incestuous inbred pedophile cracker..." is a stream of insults so common and uniform on various sites that one is given to wonder if it's not on a rubber stamp some place. There are white on black counterparts. But have you ever heard this stream of insults on the street or in a grocery store? Me neither. The last time I heard someone called an nword in public, it was almost comical because the man being called that, wasn't black. The last time I heard black people referred to as nwords in public, I was surprised both because it was said and because the person saying it assumed that because I am white then I would be OK with it; though I suppose it's possible she simply didn't care. That's two incidents in the last two years which actually makes it quite rare. On the other hand, I have heard guys called fags and general references to fags with much greater frequency.

I am left wondering why you are being an apologist


Function:
noun
Date:
1640
: one who speaks or writes in defense of someone or something

There is a difference between defending something and observing it, analyzing it, and comparing it to similar constructs and opposites. There are many passionate people on DU who demand that your passion match theirs, or else you are a nazi, a republican, a troll, whatever. What does that accomplish? Here or in real life, is the purpose of shouting someone down to make effective change? Or is it to get your ya-yas out? I am dismissive when people fly off the handle. I am also on the receiving end when I fly off the handle. It's a sort of check function, it's what we do on discussion boards. And I would rather deal with the give and take of passionate discussion all the time rather than one of these wandering nebishes who posts two word put downs or simply the rolling eyes smilie. Passion does not offend me, stupid does. (in case it isn't clear, that isn't directed at you)

[Mrs. Overall]

36. Thanks for answering my post with thought and eloquence. I totally agree with your

assessment of "apologist" in terms of reactionary "flying off the handle" incidents.

Are you saying that racist comments directed at whites is commonplace, whereas the use of stereotypical racist comments (like the "n" word) is less common in today's society? Perhaps that is so, but I tend to judge racism (or racist terms), not on current frequency of use, but by an overall pervasiveness in our societal conscience based on many factors, such as history. I was shocked this morning when someone posted a link to free republic in which Sasha Obama's peace sign t-shirt unleashed a torrent of racist comments that included everything from the Jackson memorial to Michelle looking like a housemaid. And I agree that negative gay references (name-calling) are becoming more frequent.

I know you aren't being a Pat Buchanan and crying over the plight of the white male. Am I being simplistic assuming that the heart of your post is saying that you just aren't that passionate about racism and you would rather focus your energies elsewhere rather than becoming caught up in DU battles over it? If so, I think I understand that.

[imdjh]

39. Mostly when something is strange, I step back and look for context

In this case, it's strange that in 2009 someone would be as blatant as these people are accused of being.

Mind you, it doesn't mean that I am completely above a reactionary response. Over in the Ft Worth gay bar raid, you'll see me in the appearance of reactionary response. That is, however, a tactic which I will admit to rather than a sincerely held belief that Ft Worth is evidence of a practice as pervasive as it once was. My saying that "based in history, police entering a gay bar is an act of aggression" is more evidence of my belief that police have no business going into private businesses as a matter of routine than any belief that police wish to re-enact Stonewall.

[Lilyeye]

14. I try not to read the comment sections online anymore.

There are a couple of bad sites, but the worst is AOL. Whenever I read any article on AOL where a black person is considered, the KKK, Aryan Nation and Stormfront type idiots come out in droves to make crude racist comments. Regardless of the fact that its positive. I remember reading one article about a young black girl who was homeless, but she worked very hard to graduate at the top of her class and was accepted at Harvard recently. Some idiots were saying "the n probably only got in because of affirmative action." Just sickening.

[Enthusiast]

17. Never met a Republican that was not racist.

Just sayin'

[HughBeaumont]

21. "Not all Republicans are racist, but almost all racists are Republican."

Don't know where I read that, but it's pretty much a given.

[redqueen]

23. It's a play on a John Stuart Mill quote.

[monmouth]

18. Many of us sent e-mails to the club denouncing this horrendous act...n/t

[Gman2]

30. The in group/ out group instinct is strong

It is responsible for our love of family. And that expands to include our extended family. Then, we try to care about our community.

There, is where we lose our first sociopathic republicans. Some see their neighbors as threats. And they first start to notice COLOR. Some continue on, and see their state. And they discount all those in another region. Some last this far, to fall when considering another continent. FEW, can be neutral past national borders. The pols know this. They market to our baser instincts on race and region. Lately, the republicans are trying to divide down to a community. They want to screw the country, move behind bunkers, and count their money. SCREW even the very near neighbors. There WILL be a backlash. And it will be the change you seek. We will not act, when David Duke dons suits and doesnt cuss. We act, when the innocnet, are seen to suffer when blameless. Like YOU. Be proud, and loud. Be the change. It is at the grass level.