Swedish parents keep 2-year-old's gender secret

[Are_grits_groceries]

A couple of Swedish parents have stirred up debate in the country by refusing to reveal whether their two-and-a-half-year-old child is a boy or a girl.

Pop’s parents , both 24, made a decision when their baby was born to keep Pop’s sex a secret. Aside from a select few – those who have changed the child’s diaper – nobody knows Pop’s gender; if anyone enquires, Pop’s parents simply say they don’t disclose this information.

In an interview with newspaper Svenska Dagbladet in March, the parents were quoted saying their decision was rooted in the feminist philosophy that gender is a social construction.

“We want Pop to grow up more freely and avoid being forced into a specific gender mould from the outset,” Pop’s mother said. “It's cruel to bring a child into the world with a blue or pink stamp on their forehead.”

The child's parents said so long as they keep Pop’s gender a secret, he or she will be able to avoid preconceived notions of how people should be treated if male or female.

Pop's wardrobe includes everything from dresses to trousers and Pop's hairstyle changes on a regular basis. And Pop usually decides how Pop is going to dress on a given morning.
http://www.thelocal.se/20232/20090623/

This makes my head hurt.

[Oregone]

1. If gender is purely a social construct, that child will still have to live in that society

[SoCalDem]

23. Do we know the gender of Snap, or Crackle?

:rofl:

Strange parents:)

[spoony]

81. LOL!!

:rofl:

[lame54]

2. It's Pat

[lumberjack_jeff]

8. Lol! n/t

[Cleita]

42. I thought the same thing! LOL. n/t

[lolly]

54. Or just "X"

Anybody here ever read "X: A Fabulous Child's Story?"

http://www.gendercentre.org.au/22article4.htm


It used to be a favorite in freshman comp and gender studies classes.

[Scout]

100. yup, i read that a long time ago n/t

[surrealAmerican]

108. I think the parents may be familiar with that story.

This is just too similar to explain otherwise.

[Captain Hilts]

3. But it's stunning how sexist kids' world is. nt

[DaveinJapan]

4. Human Nature n/t

[Captain Hilts]

19. Not all of it. nt

[seabeyond]

24. conditioning. hence what the parents are doing. n/t

[readmoreoften]

63. Oh right, sexism is "human nature." Is it "hard wired" too? Regale us with your confirmation bias.

:eyes:

[DaveinJapan]

126. You assume a lot

because of 2 words I wrote.

I didn't say anything about "sexism", I'm referring to the comment about cultural conditioning.

And that's a pretty solid fact, I doubt you could point to *any* culture on the planet at any point in history that doesn't treat little girls differently than little boys.

It's human nature.

[kegler14]

5. These people are nuts.

[panader0]

6. Forced into a gender mode? WTF?

Edit to add: It's a boy. If it was a girl it would be named Mom.

[cwydro]

26. See, now I bet it's a girl.

Just a feeling.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

7. >_>

weird.

[scrinmaster]

9. Poor kid.

[dysfunctional press]

30. my first thought as well.

these people are idiots.

[trotsky]

35. Yup. Fascinating topic, worth analyzing...

but not worth experimenting on a child's mind.

[anonymous171]

10. Gender is a biological construct

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

[LeftHander]

18. nope...gender more complicated...

gender made of components...

biological gender - fixed DNA with not all that uncommon exceptions...
gender identity - Personal outward expression of gender.
cultural gender - How society expects you to look.

We are moving to a more fluid gender definition.

[marshall]

20. I think they mean "gender expression"

Which is a social construct.

Good for them for putting their money where their mouth is, so to speak. It's the same sentiment I had when Jimmy Carter enrolled Amy in DC public schools during his term. If you're going to preach about the benefit of something you ought to be ready to have yourself and your family participate in it.

[xchrom]

11. i find peoples reaction to this more interesting than what the parents are doing. nt

[One_Life_To_Give]

12. +1 nt

[Oregone]

13. Why?

What the parents are doing is quite interesting. Web comments are expected

[seabeyond]

25. it is interesting. will be interesting to see how it develops, though i am sure we

wont hear this story again.

i am always on kids side... this i can see done in healthiest of ways... in love, and no judgment on my part.

just interesting

[tigereye]

43. lots of parents may do this, without even intending to...

Also, it's often very difficult to tell a child's gender when they are infants or toddlers, unless the clothing makes it obvious. My son was often referred to as a girl by strangers since he had curly blonde hair.


It's an interesting question, I think. I'm sure there are cultural or gender differences that emerge as a child grows, but I bet it's much less evident at that age, and depends a lot on how parents teach or condition gender responses with their interaction. When my son was small, I often wondered about my own expectations as to how I thought boys and girls should be treated or how they "should" act.



:hi: Seabeyond

[seabeyond]

45. exactly. that is why i find this interesting. with both my boys we didnt do any of the

"obvious" gender crap. even had some sleepers in more female gender based colors. i didnt give a shit. they were warm footies in a cold winter, comfy and soft, lol, .... and son looks good in pink, with his coloring, lol.

but there whole upbringing has been a nuetrality in what society says they are suppose to be, per gender. and i see the results.

so absolutely.

i didnt go to this extent, and much of it was unconscious cause it just isnt how we live in this house, gender roles, ergo, i have seen the results.

reading the child books, there are gender specifics, and often both children fell into female and i would have to clarify for people. people wanted me to almost apologize cause kids were verbal beyond their required gender age adn excelled at reading. that kind of bullshit.

and i watched my son about 6th grade work at the "male" roles that were required he adopted to meld in with his gender, cause it was his desire. which was fine. but then by 8th grade, pull away and say, that is bullshit. is who he is

really interesting journey for him.

anyway

i agree, as always, lol, with you

:hi:

[redqueen]

44. Indeed.

How very odd that people are so disturbed by this.

[readmoreoften]

59. +2 /nt

[JuniperLea]

68. Yep...

The reactions sort of validate the parents' idea.

[Lorien]

98. Yep

My parents were also both feminists. My sister and I played with toy trucks and cars as much as we played with dolls growing up (actually, I never wanted a doll so I didn't have one). By comparison, I know a fundie family who only gives their daughters baby dolls and play grocery stores and ovens, and the boys get sports equipment and toy trucks and guns. If the girls want to play with a basketball it's taken away and replaced with a baby doll asap. I can't imagine growing up in such a stifling, repressive environment.

[Stevenmarc]

14. Pop Secret, they gave birth to microwave popcorn

[spoony]

82. Lol, this thread is a DUzy goldmine :-)

[Ron Green]

15. I like it.

The concept of "personhood" is worth supporting at the risk of a little gender confusion. Heck, we've got plenty of that anyway despite our pink/blue efforts.

Another good idea is to not name the baby until it starts to develop a bit and inspire a name for itself.

[bertman]

16. Reminds me of a cartoon I saw: Two young parents with a toddler in a stroller and two

little old ladies who ask "what's the little one's name?"

To which the parents reply, "We don't know. He can't talk yet."

[Oregone]

17. About the name thing...babies are integral parts of the families

Sometimes its nice to name them BEFORE they are even born (especially if you have older children). The earlier you can carve a niche for them and establish them as an individual person to their siblings, the better.

You may say this approach "worth" supporting the risk of gender confusion. Is it worth painting a target on your child's back and sending them out into a world of cruel children? Whatever it accomplishes in the end, that child cannot have their childhood back.

[anigbrowl]

31. Really? And how are you going to teach this unnamed baby to recognise itself?

Most likely it will end up thinking it's name is 'mommy' or something. Names are the basis of language, I think it's a bit cruel to try raising a child but denying it a name of its own. Don't like the one you start out with, you can always change it later.

[Ron Green]

37. Perhaps the naming process can be informed by the earliest traits of the infant.

I don't think it's cruel to wait a few weeks or even a few months as the child establishes its personality and the parents decide on a fitting name, rather than preordaining something from the Family Tree or even worse, the latest version of "Amber Nicole" (1980.)

[anigbrowl]

50. Hmm. How many kids have you had?

babies start to recognize their own names very early, not long after the voice of their mother or nurse.

[Ron Green]

52. I've had some (my first grandchild is due in August),

and I'm hoping they won't carve its name in stone before it's even born. I think we're way too anal about names (many of which evolve through nicknames or other choices) in this country.

[readmoreoften]

65. I've known more than one kid who was allowed to name him or herself. They're fine.

And, yes, they "recognize themselves" (contrary to what BOTH analytical "language" philosophers and postmodernists might think) perfectly fine. After naming themselves "Crayon or Puppy" for a few years they generally stumble upon a name like "Meeka" or "Ariella". Just because the parents don't name the child, it doesn't mean they can't counsel the child on what a good name might be.

They're fine. Really. No cause for such "concern."

[SheilaT]

21. What immediately comes to my mind

is how will this kid know which rest room to use in a few more years?

[pkdu]

22. That was my first thought too....sounds like he/she will be allowed to chose

their preference on any given "visit".

[seabeyond]

28. the restroom with the parent. same as all little kids... n/t

[readmoreoften]

61. My partner was assigned "female" and she gets kicked out of women's restrooms all the time

for looking too much like a man. It's not like you're guaranteed not to have this problem if you're arbitrarily assigned a sex.

[TrogL]

96. that kept happening to my ex-wife in bars 'til she started flashing people

Of course that started a whole new set of problems

[JuniperLea]

71. All of my kids came into the ladies room with me...

Until I felt they could stand outside and wait for me, or I felt I could send the boys into the rest room alone. I don't see it as a big deal.

[seabeyond]

72. i still friggin use the buddy system sending boys into mens bathroom

cause one is still a bit young. maybe next year i will let him go in by himself, lol

isnt that sad

[JuniperLea]

85. I worry about toe-tapping senators...

And that they might touch other dirty things while they are in there.

The first time I heard about rape, I was 10 or so... and the rape happened in our local park girl's restroom.

They are all grown up now... and all I have to worry about is the damn 2010 Camaro my middle kid just bought! LOL! A mother's worry work is never done~!

[seabeyond]

87. funny

and ya. lol. all in being a parent.

[proteus_lives]

27. This won't last long.

As soon as Pop goes to school and has friends, it will put a stop to this.

What's wrong with being female or male? Parents simply need to teach their children that both are equal. I don't buy that gender is a social construct.

Something tells me if this "experiment" continues past a certain age, it will seriously mess with the kid's head.

[noamnety]

36. they aren't saying anything is wrong with either gender.

They are recognizing that society treats children differently based on gender - even before infants can talk or run or play. Just the way that strangers interact with babies reinforces stereotypes, and they'd rather their kid grows up without people imposing that stuff on their child.

I don't see the problem with it, personally. I would question why other people have such an interest in a child's anatomy, and why they need to know the shape of their genitals in order to figure out how to interact with the child. :)

[Akoto]

29. I don't get this.

I'm all for not forcing your child into a cultural gender role (aside from things like, as someone said above, knowing the proper rest room to use).

However, he still has a biological gender, and nobody's choosing that for him but Mother Nature. Why hide it?

[ContinentalOp]

117. Because the biological role automatically forces you into the cultural role.

As much as you want to pretend that you're not "forcing your child into a cultural gender role" everybody does it subconsciously.

[Kalyke]

32. I have a daughter and I hate pink.

I don't buy her pink things and ask, politely, that no one else do either. She has a variety of toys - both what were once considered toys for boys and those for girls.

You can avoid all those preconceived notions pretty simply without having to keep your child's gender a secret. Geesch.

[JerseygirlCT]

78. LOL, and I have sons and LOVE pink!

And it was my youngest's favorite color for a while there, too.

Mine also had and have a variety of toys. Perhaps partly because it was what I wanted to do with them, both spent a great deal of time with paper and pencil or crayons/paint/etc. And with music and instruments. And when friends talk with either about "girl's toy" or "boy's toy", they're corrected around here.

But I still love pink. My absolute favorite color!

[sutz12]

33. They don't have birth certificates in Sweden?

;)

[scheming daemons]

34. And in 15 years, I hope the parents have lots of money for therapy

:eyes:

[WorseBeforeBetter]

41. It's Sweden... won't it be covered? (n/t)

[TheWraith]

38. Stupid people.

Sorry, but that's the fact. I don't care how much you philosophize, science shows that there are real and legitimate differences between genders.

[seabeyond]

48. says the person with undeclared gender.... bah hahahah.

just teasing. thought cute.

[EndersDame]

79. Yep we are humans not single celled organisms

I am proud to be a female! I think life would totally suck without an opposite gender to balance it all out.I like variety!

[Morning Dew]

93. The more variety the better.

[CBGLuthier]

39. Good an approach as any

Better than beating the hell out of your son when he puts lipstick on as some love to do.

[kjackson227]

40. Some people are so warped... ~SIGH~

[WI_DEM]

46. whatever

[fishwax]

47. I don't think this will end as badly as many seem to assume

The article doesn't say they plan to keep the secret indefinitely, nor does it say they're somehow keeping it a secret from the child itself (and the kid knows, according to the article, that there are physical differences between boys and girls)--so things like not knowing which restroom to use won't be an issue. The secret won't last once the kid's in school anyway, and the parents probably know that.

In the meantime, strangers on the street don't know what pop's gender is, and friends and family will buy pop's birthday gifts based on what pop might have expressed an interest in, rather than buying a tonka truck b/c it's a boy or a barbie doll b/c it's a girl. I'm not saying there won't be complications and challenges--probably there have been in the first two-and-a-half years--but that's true of a more gender-specific parenting strategy as well.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

95. +1 -nt

[Vidar]

49. Might work in Sweden, though I doubt it. Wouldn't stand a chance here.

[Scout]

51. i think it's funny how many people think this is sooooo strange

what, you don't know how to talk to people or how to treat them unless you know what kind of naughty bits they have?

says way more about the people who are worried about it than it does about the parents. good on them, i say.

[TokenQueer]

55. Well said. Ditto!

[Oregone]

57. Thats not really the point at all

Gender roles and identity are social norms (right or wrong). Rejecting them on behalf of your child will make your child "abnormal" to that society, which makes for a tough childhood. Children can be very cruel, you know, and perhaps painting a big target on your child's back is an act of cruelty in itself that may not outweigh the benefit.

There are better ways to teach a child to treat people equal, regardless of gender, than by making them an ambiguously androgynous "IT" that is the butt of the town's jokes.

[Scout]

73. and i don't think it's appropriate to apply those social norms

to children.

girls who aren't "girly" get those social norms applied to them, and are taught there is something wrong with them if they don't fit the social norms. if they are the butt of the town's jokes, then that just proves my point--people can't STAND it if they don't know which gender they are supposed to treat you as ... ie, are you a "little lady" that needs assistance and can be condescended to and patronized? or are you a "big boy" who can do things yourself, and will be taught to do so, and to persevere, and have self-confidence?

you can TEACH equality all you want, and that is absolutely no guarantee at all that is how people will be treated.

[seabeyond]

86. ahhh, but there are equal disadvantages to boys if they dont follow the adopted role of what boys is

too.

if they are not the aggressor or aggressive. my oldest didn't fit the "boy" role in my testosterone male driven family and i often had to give father and brothers the "eye" of retaliation if they didn't shut their stupid ass mouth with derogatory or insulting comments to son to man up the boy..... from the youngest of ages.

now that son hit 14 and he is healthy, well balanced and an excellent perception of what a man is.... character, they have totally backed off and even see the errors of their way with the sons that were given that bullshit.

it is not only repressing for female, but equally for the male too

[Scout]

88. i didn't say ANYTHING about boys, especially that "it" is not repressing for them n/t

[seabeyond]

89. ya, i was bringing it up cause of my own experience with son and revelation

in his own experience.

just sharing.

[Scout]

90. ok, sorry to jump at you n/t

[seabeyond]

92. but but but

i understand

[surrealAmerican]

109. I don't buy your, "children can be very cruel" argument.

That could conceivably be an issue if the child (and his/her peers) were eight, but this is a two year old. Two year olds barely even notice the genders of their playmates unless an older person makes an issue of it. By the time this child is old enough to encounter cruel peers, he or she will be old enough to decide to reveal his/her gender, or not regardless of the parents' preference.

[Oregone]

110. Yes, I think 2 year olds do not...

But 3 year olds DEFINITELY do. Having one has opened my eyes to that.

[EndersDame]

83. I just think we are humans and not single celled organisms

Gender is a biological thing. The kid will pick a gender (even if its not congruent with the parts but it still will be a gender) There are big differences in the way a female and male brain work. I am proud to be a female! I think we should be able to celebrate our differences and besides life would be totally bland with just one gender.

[yodoobo]

115. Well..its unique enough to merit a news story

that gets worldwide attention.

I find it sad that a child is reduced to an experiment and being called "it".

[Arkana]

53. I just...what?

You don't want to tell other people if your kid's male or female because you're afraid how they will be treated?

That kid's gonna need years of therapy.

[rucky]

56. Awwww, a pet guinea pig!

how cute

[Oregone]

58. How beautiful

or, er, cute.

[nemo137]

103. +1

Zing.

[dugaresa]

60. Having raised a child of each gender, I think this is kind of funny

because really little kids do not really associate with gender in most cases as I recall.

My kids didn't even understand the idea of even different races. They just played and had fun.

I don't recall there being any forcing of gender roles on my kids as I let them play with whatever toy they wanted. Granted I dressed them by gender role but more so for my son as my daughter loved leggings. My son used to love to play barbies with his cousin and my daughter played with legos, so what's the big deal?

Now unless they are going to isolate Pop, eventually he/she will meet other kids and the gender issue will come up. The problem will be as Pop gets older and if Pop switches between male and female dress then it may make Pop the brunt of jokes and I am not sure as a parent I would want that to happen. What happens when Pop says? "am I a boy or a girl?" or "why did you experiment with me, this isn't funny mon and dad"

Now I undertand that some folks are transgendered and I get that. The individual realizes perhaps young that they don't fit the gender role they were born with and chooses follow their inner desire/need.

[readmoreoften]

62. Oh big f'in deal. The kid will probably be more well-adjusted than the most on this thread.

The kid will grow up and decide where he or she fits in and who he or she is. Considering how even the most gender-regulatory parents can end up with transgendered kids, I fail to see how this will make the kid "mixed up." The child is in no "worse" predicament than many intersexed children. For all we know, the child is intersexed.

I know kids who've grown up similar to this child and they're bright and creative and totally normal.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

64. indeed and probably less insecure than most on du.

[seabeyond]

66. lol lol, isnt that the truth. not like the kid wont know their gender.

nor will they be having to battle the whole role thing, that probably will have its own fucked up moment for he/she to figure out.

confidence, love, foundation, security.... (golly gee, none of that has to do with gender), well afford a comfortable kid in life

[JuniperLea]

67. "more well-adjusted"

Yep. I don't see a problem with this at all. Wish I'd thought of it.

[Maru Kitteh]

69. They are running a psychological experiment on a captive child.

They should be stopped. If this were done in an orphanage the sadistic, self-indulgent bastards running this experiment would be imprisoned.

[Scout]

74. everyone who raises a child is performing an experiment on a captive n/t

[Posteritatis]

94. +1 (nt)

[woo me with science]

111. Best post. nt

[ContinentalOp]

118. The child will be fine.

Thankfully they live in Sweden and not a third world country like the U.S.

[Fleshdancer]

70. The only way I could see this as damaging to the child....

is if the parents force him/her to live ambiguously when she/he is old enough to understand and want to identify with his/her gender. At 2.5 years of age, does it really matter? Why would people need to know Pop's gender right now?

[aikoaiko]

75. Awesome, I bet this kid rebels against his parent and turns into a extreme butch or femme

lol

[EndersDame]

76. Gender is a biological thing not a social thing

In my psychology class we read about an infant who had a botched circumcision or something and the doc advised the parents to raise the kid as a girl and he still wanted to be a boy and later on tried to get reconstructive surgery (i dont have a link but it is the gender chapter of Wiley's Psychology in Action 8th edition http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0471747246.html .)


I think transgendered people also point to gender as a biological issue. I can imagine something happening in the pregnancy that would accidentally "make" a guy with girl parts or vice versa. I went to school with a transgendered individual her parents and society tried to raise him as a boy but she knew she was a girl.

We humans are not gender neutral the amount of estrogen and testosterone affect our personalities and the way we think. The way our brain functions are also very different in certain things such as depth perception.

I believe that we should celebrate our differences and be glad that we have variety in our species

[One_Life_To_Give]

91. More complicated and sometimes ambiguous

Some parts of gender differences are rooted in biology while others are purely social constructs.

It's quite possible that this kid was born with indeterminate/intersex gender. And some years needed to pass before a positive identification is practicle. Why allow outside influences to shape such a major decision for a child?

The real story from my point of view is the need to force this kid into specific roles long before it is necessary. Pants or dress, truck or doll, hair long or short aren't going to make a difference one way o9r the other. Given a chance both genders would play, wear, do both to one extent or another. Is it really that life shattering if some woman in Tehran wears a pair of Jeans or some guy in Mobile wears Crinoline?

[ContinentalOp]

119. That does happen...

but there are also plenty of transgendered people who come from the other perspective: i.e. people who identify as female but were born biologically male or vice versa.

[EndersDame]

130. I know I think this also points to gender as a biological thing

and not a social thing . Society tries to tell they are one thing but the way their chemistry is set up tells them another. My professor really enlightened the whole class when he said sometimes its a normal thing for something to go a little off kilter during the development of a fetus and maybe the DNA instructs the cells to make boy parts when it should be making girl parts. I knew one transgendered person in high school and I knew that "Brad" was really "Brenda" not because her parents were trying to raise her as a girl (far from the case) but it was something innate and she couldn't choose to be a boy even though it would make her life easier

I just think that if you say that gender is something society influences it sounds like the people who say it also influences homosexuality. I think both are biological constructs

[LibertyLover]

77. Ran into something similar a few years ago

We had flown over to London for vacation with our then 4 year old daughter who is adopted from China. While waiting for the bus to the hotel, another couple with their obviously adopted daughter joined the group. My daughter pointed excitedly to the other little girl and said something like 'Mommy, look, she looks like me. Did she come from China too?'. I said that yes, I thought she might have. The other mother looked over at us with a very annoyed look on her face. I smiled and asked politely if her daughter were from China. Yes, she said very curtly. My daughter piped up with 'I'm from Hubei - is she too?', to which the woman replied that they were trying to keep races and nationalities out of raising their child and so they were keeping her province of birth a secret. I just said oh, ok, and turned back to my family, but I was thinking to myself 'good luck with that - the minute the kid looks at herself and her parents in the mirror, she is going to realized that she doesn't look the least like them and then the questions are going to start.

[JerseygirlCT]

80. I have to agree with you

my kids aren't adopted, so we don't have that immediate experience, but we've always talked about people coming in a wonderful variety of sizes, shapes and colors, and isn't that great! IOW, different isn't something to be papered over, but something to celebrate. Just MHO

[EndersDame]

84. Thats fucked up the kid should be proud of where she comes from

and get to know her culture and heritage of her bio and adoptive parents

[LibertyLover]

102. Absolutely

We make sure that our daughter gets as much Chinese heritage and history as is age appropriate. She is very proud of where she came from, but also proud of her family history here. Once in a while I'll slip and say something like 'that's my cousin' when we are looking at photos and she is quick to remind me that it's her cousin too. But at the same time she is thrilled when she sees something from China and is just as quick to tell us that she is from China too. We are painfully aware that we cannot give her Chinese cultural norms, like she would have gotten if she had not been abandoned by her birth parents, but we are trying to make sure that she appreciates the deep and rich culture and history of the country she was born in.

[EndersDame]

112. I am 1/2 white 1/2 mexican and raised by my white mama

I love her but i did miss out on my mexican heritage in my earlier years. My old highschool teacher adopted a chinese baby girl and I was so thrilled when i heard that she took her to chinese language classes and what little chinese cultural events that were in the area

[LibertyLover]

132. We do much the same

Unfortunately the only place that did Chinese language classes was an hour's drive away and the classes lasted all day Saturday and part of Sunday. However, she will be able to take Chinese in middle school. Meanwhile we supplement with Chinese classes from Muzzy. We also take her to museum shows on China and whatever other cultural events we can. Luckily I work with folks from China and so she gets to interact with them. They are really happy when I bring her to work with me and I can count on her being whisked away to be treated like a little princess.

[fujiyama]

113. It almost reminds of Colbert and how he keeps saying "I don't see race and gender"

The concept of a totally color blind society is unrealistic. I think children realize around the age of 4 or 5 that some people have a different skin color, or different hair, that some are taller or shorter - or some are male or female. The key is teaching these kids that such diversity is a good thing and no one should be treated differently based on such differences.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

97. I completely get this.

As a female who was raised in that gender role, I had tough times growing up -- too often what I really wanted were the toys/experiences "assigned" to boys! :D And as much as my family tolerated some of my whims, there were others -- teachers, family friends, heck even strangers -- who made it very clear I was a girl and therefore had to abide by certain gender-based rules. To have the opportunity to experience groeing up without external gender limitations is very interesting.

I totally understand what this family is trying to do.

[Scout]

99. i had a women's studies teacher

who went on that OLD show "Kids Say the Darndest Things" and at the end, the kids got to pick out a toy from a selection ... my teacher did not want any of the "girl" toys, and they REFUSED to let her have a "boy" toy! how fucking stupid is that?

i had the same experiences as you, it sounds like, growing up a tomboy. girl stuff was just plain boring to me.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

106. There are soooo many ---

spoken/unspoken "rules" about gender that we are saturated with -- unless you were one of the "different ones", I really don't know if you can get just how pervasive they are. :hi:

Clothes, toys, haircuts -- those are just the obvious ones -- it's the more subtle stuff that can really inform gender attitudes. As a woman going into a home improvemenmt store, I can tell you how my knowledge is received by clerks is very different than my nephew's. I have had my materials selections actually questioned by clerks (mostly in the "Are you sure you want to be doing that?" vein). My nephew? Never happens. The not subtle gender mesage is "You are a woman, I'm am not so sure you know what you are doing," which is a scream, because my skills and knowledge are MUCH better than my nephews! :D Or when a sales clerk starts talking to the male of a pair -- like they are the "authority" of the two. :eyes: Hundreds of little things like that populate our days and send us messages about our gender.

I can relate to your teacher -- I coveted my next door neighor's Hot Wheels set! :D And yes, that is pretty fucking stupid. No (safe) toy should be off limits to any child -- I think that is just basic common sense at this point.

[Odin2005]

101. This is unethical. Parents shouldn't use their kids as an psychological experiment.

The notion that people are born as blank slates has been dead for a long time, anyway.

[ContinentalOp]

120. How is this a "psychological experiment"?

If you think we aren't born as blank slates then what do you even care? The parent's actions should have no effect right? :shrug:

[Odin2005]

127. Because that doesn't mean that things like this can't scew a kid up.

[XemaSab]

104. As long as they don't try to keep this going after the kid starts school

I don't see what the problem is. The kid knows what his or her gender is, the parents know...

I'm always in favor of raising kids to think for themselves. :D

[NeedleCast]

105. More Parents who shouldn't be parents doing stupid things

[Scout]

107. other than medical, what are any legitimate reasons anyone

needs to know ANYONE else's gender?

why?

[yodoobo]

114. Its a child. not a social statement

this is going to be one messed up adult someday.

[ContinentalOp]

121. I doubt it.

Maybe if they were unfortunate enough to live in a backwards country like ours but I'm willing to bet this kid will be just fine.

[fujiyama]

116. The kid will figure it out soon

Pop will know soon what s/he consider him/herself. I think such a self definition occurs pretty early - by 5 or so, though it could be even earlier. By then, the parents better stop playing stupid games and treat Pop however s/he wants to be treated. If they keep this shit up too long, later on Pop could resent them for years later.

I just find it amusing that they are dressing the kid in overtly feminine or masculine clothing and giving the kid hair that matches preconceived gender notions. I think it would have been better simply dressing the kid in ambiguous gender clothing like a pant/shirt and kept the hair long. After all, this isn't a matter of "oh little Timmy likes to play with Barbies" or "Tammy likes Tonka Trucks". It's OK for kids to be exposed to various toys and whatnot, but they need to be raised a certain way - at least right around when they can actually communicate. Since the child is already 2 1/2, Pop should be starting to speak.

It just seems idiotic playing social experiments with a child. The cases of gender-identity confusion are not exactly common - and gender has BOTH biological and social constructs. If the child were confused about his or her gender, then of course it's something that would need to be addressed at a later age through therapy and possibly sex-reassignment surgery but such an action is drastic and should be done only at an age when the person is absolutely sure they are in the wrong body.

[Evoman]

122. Lol...people can't be comfortable if we can't categorize things. It's all sort of amusing.

We very strictly socialize people based on gender roles....fact is, we don't even know the extent of biology on gender behaviour because nobody has ever really tried to raise a kid without these roles. We raise em how we raise em, and then we think it's natural. There is nothing "natural" about women wearing dresses, and men wearing pants. There is nothing natural about hair-styles..long for women, short for men.

This is about us. And if the kid gets teased by other kids, it's because we think it's okay for our kids to make fun of this kid.

Ha...you guys think you know what is natural. You think you know what's right. You know nothing. You're nothing but a mind-fucked product of your socialization.

[seabeyond]

129. we think it's okay for our kids to make fun of this kid.

if that kid gets teased it is cause....

damn straight.

i like your posts evo, how you think.

same with the post of yours on evo.

you are right on, again.

[eridani]

123. With many intersexed kids, you literally can't tell

Will society finally be enlighted when an acceptable answer to "Is it a girl or a boy?" becomes "We don't know. We'll have to wait until s/he is old enough to talk and then ask him/her."

[mamaleah]

124. How nice. They are using their child as an experiment.

Or to make a statement.

Because just being a parent isn't enough.

[Celtic Merlin]

125. So which BATHROOM will the kid use in school?

Once the kid has to take a good healthy whizz in school, the secret will be out.

What these parents are doing isn't a whole bunch different from what those psychos that named their son Adolf Hitler did to their kid. This is, however, much less permanent.

I say let 'em have their fun. The kid's gonna choose its own gender when it gets into the social interactions of school. Then, all of this bullshit falls apart anyway.

Celtic Merlin
Carlinist

[OwnedByFerrets]

128. Why the hell is this a story or even something anyone

would care about. Most of us dont want others telling us how to raise our children...as long as we do it within the constraints of the laws.

[Vickers]

131. Seems pretty goofy to me.

But hey, my parenting skills ain't so hot, so there.