Take a breath already.. the Cap and Trade is just a small part of what is already in play

[Peacetrain]

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/apr/22/nation/na-windfarm22

By Jim Tankersley
April 22, 2009

Reporting from Washington — The Interior Department will announce new rules today that clear the way for the first offshore wind turbines to be erected along the Atlantic Coast.
Ads by Google



The rules will set long-awaited guidelines for offshore leases, easements and royalty payments that the Bush administration worked on for years but did not complete.

The guidelines represent the most aggressive move yet from an administration that hopes to shift the nation's offshore energy supply from oil to wind power. President Obama is expected to mention the rules today in his Earth Day appearance at an Iowa wind turbine factory.
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If anyone listened to Science Friday you would have heard a discussion on how wind power could make 14 times the energy needs for the United States running at 20% capacity.

If we all step back and look at what the administration has been doing in sections, from forcing the auto companies to produce more fuel efficient vehicles if they want public funds..to offshore leases.. the Cap and Trade Bill that got passed is just a part of a larger strategy that is already in operation

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EDIT TO ADD

From the Sierra Club

http://www.saveourenvironment.org/Biggest-Step.pdf

By making our cars,pickup trucks,and SUVs go farther on a gallon of gas,Americans can
save billions of dollars, curb global warming pollution, and slash our dependence on oil
— making our nation safer and more secure.

Jan 26th , 2009,,.Obama signs legislation to set strict auto emission controls

WASHINGTON — President Obama will direct federal regulators on Monday to move swiftly on an application by California and 13 other states to set strict automobile emission and fuel efficiency standards, two administration officials said Sunday.

[FreakinDJ]

1. Part of the same "Globalization" that Bankrupted Argentina

It's pure BS

[Peacetrain]

2. Well what is your solution? I am all ears..

[FreakinDJ]

4. Shiping all the manufacturing to China - INCREASES pollution

They have been monitoring the effects of China's pollution drifting across the Pacific ocean all the way to the West Coast of the USA and Canada for decades already.

To say the Environmentalist won any battles there would be ignorant bliss. So until those carbon taxes are applies to imported goods you got nothing. Because Chine virtually has NO environmental laws

[Peacetrain]

5. That is the exact reason Bush scuttled Kyoto..

Because China is not there, we are not going to move forward?

[FreakinDJ]

6. So closing more US manufacturing and shipping it to China will help?

I'm all ears - explain to me how that is going to help

You know damm well this carbon tax policy is going to do just that

[Statistical]

7. +1. Without China involved or a carbon tax on imported good...

Cap & Trade will kill anything that can be moved overseas.

Why build a lawnmower in the US and pay $15 in carbon tax (when lawnmower may only have $40 profit) when you can build it in China and pay $0 in carbon tax + pollute more (less enviromental costs) + pay employees 1/3 + pay less corporate taxes.

Why would anyone stay and build something in the US?

[Peacetrain]

9. See post 8

[FreakinDJ]

14. Thank God - some one gets it

Sure we need to do some thing but a carbon tax is a really bad idea

We have done more good by driving the economy to clean tech through building codes and clean water legislation then we have punishing the country.

California's title 24 was a HUGE success in decreasing enegy cost and the subsequent pollution cause by energy production

[Peacetrain]

8. So we continue to pollute at a rate that will destroy the environment

because the metal industries do not want to put in the science to eliminate emissions? If companies move their jobs overseas, they are not going to get a free ride back into this country to peddle their goods tax free.

We are in the midst of trying to move to a green economy, that is self sustainable in country.


Every step we take to a greener environment is going to cost old industries. They either retool or die. That means as a people who live in a greener environment, we either retool our skills or sit on the sidelines and cry.

The cat is out of the bag as far as old style manufacturing goes.

Again.. what is your solution for keeping industry in country and reestablishing emissions control?

Where we are going in the green industry movement will be a boon to China and India in the future. Cap and Trade is just the tip of the iceberg.

What I find humorous or less than, is that the same arguments that the republicans used to gut kyoto, are now being used by some who would rather have no bill, than one that is even more stringent. The same said group have not even bothered to look at what has gone on before in the last 6 months with emissions controls being reestablished, autos etc.. wind power leases

[FreakinDJ]

10. WRONG - We pollute more by shipping manufacturing to China

Those "pesky" facts seem to be a real bitch for you

btw: I'm still waiting for you to reply to my question

[Peacetrain]

11. I did answer your question.. you just did not like the answer!

The pesky fact that we just keep on doing what we are doing has worked for us HOW?? in keeping manufacturing here in the states? GOD I want to hear how that one worked

Damn, I thought it was because the gouging of the American worker to work for third world wages while trying to live in a first world economy.. Damn it was the fact that we were restricting pollution.. Well who would have thought?


Oh hell forget corporate gouging and getting away from paying taxes.. so they can ship goods back tariff free and destroying the blue collar class.. I

It was not letting the metal industries pollute enough.. Damn am I dumb..

[FreakinDJ]

13. Your Full of Shit and it causes more unregulated pollution

At least keeping manufacturing in America provides for some reduction in carbon emissions. EPA, clean water act

Now show me the Chinese equivelent

YOU CAN'T LIAR

[Peacetrain]

15. Reread it again asshat... I never said they had it..

What I said, was that in the future even they and India will benefit from our development of alternative fuels.

[FreakinDJ]

17. China and India are NOT going Green you AsssHat Dreamer

if it incures additional cost they are not going to do it

[Peacetrain]

20. When we develop alternative fuels and systems that are cost effective

for our own country.. We will be exporting that said same technology to other countries. Now all the jobs going to China and India, are going there not because of fuel costs.. that is the biggest red herring going.. it is labor and health cost that global corporates, who have no investment in the welfare of our country are taking the jobs to the cheapest labor pool. They have been going there since the first Bush put out Nafta, (and Bill Clinton who I love, ran against it, and then ended up signing it).. that horse is dead.

Our losing all the manufacturing that we did, was due to labor costs. Now what first got me on board with Obama, was his willingness to give tax breaks to companies who develop labor pools in this country and not to those who export jobs.

He has been true to his word, from giving states the right to mandate higher emissions controls that affect all autos, imported and domestic.. to forcing the auto industry if they wanted public money to develop a more efficient auto.

[Peacetrain]

3. Jan 26th , 2009,,.Obama signs legislation to set strict auto emission controls

WASHINGTON — President Obama will direct federal regulators on Monday to move swiftly on an application by California and 13 other states to set strict automobile emission and fuel efficiency standards, two administration officials said Sunday.



The directive makes good on an Obama campaign pledge and signifies a sharp reversal of Bush administration policy. Granting California and the other states the right to regulate tailpipe emissions would be one of the most emphatic actions Mr. Obama could take to quickly put his stamp on environmental policy.

[endless october]

12. probably won't be the most popular opinion, but...

i'm very on the fence about cap and trade at this point.

there are a few reasons for this. number one, i live in the midwest, and most of my electricity comes from coal. i just can't afford to pay more for it. number two, i live in a rural area. there is no public transport here, so i have to drive to get to work. yes, i know, hopefully public transportation will appear because of this bill.

number three, i have NG heat, and can't afford to pay much more for that. number four, i get the feeling that this bill is designed mostly to make money for corporate assholes who will be in the carbon trading business and people like t boone pickens who paid a lot of green to get this thing passed.

finally, this is a game that only we are playing. so it's just like fucking NAFTA. what few manufacturing jobs that are left are going to go to the third world where there are NO pollution controls. and how much is this going to lower the temperatures if the jobs move to China?

i just don't know, honestly. right now we need jobs, jobs, and jobs. and even though they are passing this under the guise of green jobs, i tend to doubt it's going to benefit many people other than the corporate fucks who bought it.

maybe i'm too cynical. i truly hope i'm just panicking prematurely over this thing because my funds are low right now.

anyway, that's just my two cents.

[Peacetrain]

16. I hear you.. it is scary scary right now.. My brother is washing

dishes and has no insurance. He is trying to save some little bit from that pittance in case of a health emergency.. scary is about it.

But the renewable energies jobs are just a small part of it..they have had a 9.1 % growth factor since 1998.. small , I know, with a creation of around 770,000 jobs. But that looks to pick up pretty good in 2010, and these will be good blue collar jobs, and not service jobs.

Mechanic, electricians, the biol fuels and wind turbine factories will open. The maintenance needed for those will grow.

But jobs that have gone to Mexico, and Asia, are not coming back. The global corporates have no patriotic pull to invest in our country.

Obama got my attention when he came out with the fact he wants to give tax breaks to companies that create jobs in this country.

That is where tax breaks for corporates need to go, not to companies taking jobs out of country.

[FreakinDJ]

18. No factories are going to open here under Cap and Trade

You still don't get it AssHat

It is a Job Killer - a recovery Derailer, a Manufacturing Black Hole

But worse then all that it is brought to you by the same folks who want to privatise water, who invented the current financials melt down, who tax the poor and reward the rich

Your a fool and it shows

[Peacetrain]

22. Who died and made you the all knowing God of the Universe

The black hole of manufacturing jobs that are a livable wage, unless it is making turbines etc, has gone overseas already.

[Peacetrain]

23. Besides Genius.. 70% of all new job creation is in small buisness..

not large factories..

[Peacetrain]

24. And one more thing.. fossill fuels are on the short list.. being used up

If we do not start now retooling and converting our infrastructure (job creation) or looking at alternative ways to burn cleanly even soft coals etc.. you think job loses now is traumatic.. think what it will be then

[MH1]

19. Ever thought of converting your heat to geothermal?

Up-front cost is high but there is a 30% tax credit now through 2010 for equipment AND installation. No cap on the credit (unlike in 2008 - don't go by the example form at the IRS site if it's from 2008, go by the explanation on the site).

Anyway it will cut your bills way down - geo is the highest efficiency HVAC going. Your state may have a low-interest loan program to help pay the up-front cost.

[Peacetrain]

21. I think all alternatives should be explored.. bio fuels can actually be more destructive

to the environment in their production. I am all up for looking at that where available

[endless october]

25. might look into that.

geothermal would be awesome.

my first big expense will be to get better insulation on my house. once i find a new job, that is priority number two after i get another car.